Escorts and other forms of "prostitution"

[JadedStar]

LOL ...you got that right.

 

 

Well Melrich it is an analogy that makes sense if read with an open mind.

 

The bottom line was what looks like a fair operation to onlookers is NOT behind closed doors.

 

If someone can't understand that...well ....

 

But since the majority of the people on this thread are FOR this business I'll bow completely out of the discussion. Semms pretty pointless for me to even toss in my views at this point.

[cleo_gurl]

The prostitution market is driven by customer demand for sexual service. During WW II, the Japanese military forced from 100,000 to 200,000 Korean women into prostitution to service their military, so you are saying that what these people did was okay?? The fact is that not all prostitutes want to be that they are forced into it.

 

And this statement that conservative republicans need to get laid more then he does well I probably do get laid more then you.

[ghost69]

most prostitutes are tied to those situations before they turn into one. this is why so many women are easy for pimps to handle.

[cleo_gurl]

Pimps target girls or women who seem naive, lonely, homeless, and rebellious. At first, the attention and feigned affection from the pimp convinces her to "be his woman." Pimps ultimately keep prostituted women in virtual captivity by verbal abuse - making a woman feel that she is utterly worthless: a toilet, a piece of trash; and by physical coercion - beatings and the threat of torture. 80% to 95% of all prostitution is pimp-controlled.

 

Oh and if wanna see the statistics here you go:

 

62% reported having been raped in prostitution.

73% reported having experienced physical assault in prostitution.

72% were currently or formerly homeless.

92% stated that they wanted to escape prostitution immediately.

83% of prostitutes are victims of assault with a weapon

 

Male dominance means that the society creates a pool of prostitutes by any means necessary so that men have what men need to stay on top, to feel big, literally, metaphorically, in every way and its not always just sex that happens, these women get treated wrong.

[cleo_gurl]

We usually don't see prostitution as domestic violence because it is just too painful: "...the carnage: the scale of it, the dailiness of it, the seeming inevitability of it; the torture, the rapes, the murders, the beatings, the despair, the hollowing out of the personality, the near extinguishment of hope commonly suffered by women in prostitution.

 

The age of entry into prostitution is decreasing. For example, how do we even conceptualize "juvenile" prostitution, when the age of consent for legal sexual activity is constantly lowered, as in Netherlands and Philippines? The average age of entry into prostitution is 13 and 14 years of age. Are you seriously saying that this is alright with all of you that are for this? When you have kids and if this would ever be legialized which it never will, that could be your daughter selling herself and you are objecting her to that violence.

 

I can not believe what some people are saying here its sick.

[SweetJade]

Pimps target girls or women who seem naive, lonely, homeless, and rebellious. At first, the attention and feigned affection from the pimp convinces her to "be his woman." Pimps ultimately keep prostituted women in virtual captivity by verbal abuse - making a woman feel that she is utterly worthless: a toilet, a piece of trash; and by physical coercion - beatings and the threat of torture. 80% to 95% of all prostitution is pimp-controlled.

 

Oh and if wanna see the statistics here you go:

 

62% reported having been raped in prostitution.

73% reported having experienced physical assault in prostitution.

72% were currently or formerly homeless.

92% stated that they wanted to escape prostitution immediately.

83% of prostitutes are victims of assault with a weapon

 

Exactly! The thought of someone taking advantage of someone like that sickens me. I find it disturbing that someone would use another human being as an object,using that person as a toy you paid money for, only for your selfish gratification! I don't see how anyone could sleep with them, knowing that they've been with numerous strange men, possibly contracted a fatal std, I don't understand why people just can't simply masterbate and call it a day. Is it really that serious that people need to get laid?? Whatever happened to finding the right person?

[melrich]

Well Melrich it is an analogy that makes sense if read with an open mind.

 

I really wasn't being facetious or a smartarse, I just didn't get the analogy, in fact after reading it I couldn't decide if you were for or against legalisation. I actually plumped for "for", but obviously I was wrong since reading your last post.

 

So yes a respectable front does not mean the activities behind the scenes are also respectable. Many, many legitimate businesses have that attribute.

 

To those of you who keep raising the morality of prostitution, I for one who would argue for legalisation, am not arguing the morality of the profession. That is for individuals to decide.

 

I always hestitate on this forum to talk about my views on things like guns and prostitution because my culture around those isues is very different from I guess what the majority here is exposed to.

 

So I will simply give you a very brief run down of what happened here and let that speak for itself with no other comment.

 

Prostitution was illegal here until about 15 to 20 years ago.

 

Prior to that, most prostitution was street walkers and there were some illegal brothels that would shift from one rat hole to another to avoid the law.

 

The industry was run by our local version of the mafia and the illegal immigrant sector was run by local representatives of Asian crime gangs.

 

It was very much prostituion, drugs and crime. A pretty dirty little industry. In my city we had well over 1000 street walkers scattered around a city of 3.5 million. Many of them went missing, many were badly abused, many ended up broken and diseased individuals. Their life in the main was short and hard.

 

When it was legalised, over a period of about 5 or 6 years the street walkers disappeared. Those that had been doing it continued as they could not get work in the legal establishments due to their drug habits and health. But by attrition it died out.

 

There is still a hard core of illegal street walkers (they estimate 15 -20) at any one time operating in one small sector of the city. But they tend to be loners and they are intermittent. (and street walking is still illegal).

 

As legalisation took hold, prostitution moved into established and clean brothels. The governement introduced laws (monthly health checks, drug testing, maximum hours that can be worked, minimum wage conditions). A prostitutes co-operative was established to lobby for prostitutes rights and health. It includes OH&S facilities, counselling, financial planning and a level of policing of the girls working conditions.

 

In the last 6 or 7 years, the two largest brothel franchises listed on our local stock exchange. They operate as franchises, pretty much on the same business model as any franchise. They are also subject to the same corparate standards and requirements of any business operating in Australia.

 

There is still a crime element, in the same way as there is attached to gambling ventures. It's predominantly a high cash flow business and that will always attract criminal elements. The industry and working in it is not regarded as a respectable career and most would still frown on it as a choice of something to do and I'm guessing that most prostitutes would not tell friends and family what they are doing. There is still an illegal sector but it struggles because most clients want the safer, more likely drug free and disease free environmant of the legal venues. So the moral issues did not disappear.

 

But the women work in safer, cleaner and more caring environments. It was always regarded here as an ethical decision, not a moral one.

 

In America, overrall, it is not legal so there's very little reason to debate beyond that unless enotalone is now the senate floor. An e-forum is not grounds to make an Initiative for any proposed change to a law.

 

As an aside, this is one of the most depressing sentiments I have read here on eNotalone.

 

Public debate should be encouraged and embraced in any forum or medium. You need to understand that social change/progress is built on millions of activities and interactions large and small. You don't just walk out and lobby governments, you research, you discuss with peers, you gather feedback from diverse sources, you look at other cultures, harness support.

 

No debate is useless if there are two opposing sides.

[CynicalGuitarist]

Believe me, If I had the money and the opportunity to move to a place like Thailand... I would. Hell, even someplace in Europe... 'Cause I'm tired of dealing with the corruption and idiocy of this country. Only problem is, I still live at home, and make minimum wage with no other job experience. But give me a one-way ticket to another country (that isn't extremely war-torn or poverty ridden) and I will renounce my US citizenship and learn a new language, even.

 

 

 

SIGH! I guess I'm typing to empty bandwidth here. I've said over and over again that I KNOW that it's a corrupt service!!! I DON'T agree with FORCED prostitution, and yes, the way things are are BAD, and pimps and gangs and all have done HORRIBLE things!!! Hell, there's corruption in all sorts of things in the world that could, infact, be beneficial for other people (FDA, anybody?) There's a difference between glorification and accepting that someone's occupation is, well, what they do for a living. I mean, have any one of you even seen that show "Dirty Jobs?" I rest my case... In America, a number of people still glorify George W. Bush and his admin, even though they're responsible for the killing of a ridiculous ammount of innocent middle easterners under the paranoid precept that they MIGHT be terrorists. So, that's not as bad as wrecking a home, because killin' them easterners gots that good ol' American "stamp of approval?" I know it's an extreme example, but think about it... Y'know, alcohol can make people violent, have sex with others, can be the cause of rape, can make women suseptible to rape, can trigger fights, can wreck homes, indirectly cause sexual disease, kill innocent people (drinking and driving), and tons more, but how many people are speaking out against the drinking of alcohol? Ohhh, I forgot, it's a TAXED vice, so it MUST be OK!

[CynicalGuitarist]

Whatever happened to finding the right person?

 

Face it, not EVERYONE is cut-out for the dating world; myself included. There are over 6 billion people in the world... chances are, there are at least several people that could be "the right person"

 

Btw, cheers to melrich for the history lesson and defending the right to free debate.

[pianoguy]

You'll have to do much better then that. The effects of segregation on blacks in terms of limiting opportunities are readily apparent objectively. Your characterization of prostitution as degrading, not just to the prostitutes themselves but ALL women is subjective. More importantly, prostitution does not limit the opportunities of an entire gender.

 

Oh- I think I see now! So it is okay to degrade some women and not others. More specifically- it is okay to degrade women who don't have the financial resources to escape the life of degradation that their poverty condemns them to, but it is not okay to degrade women who were born into conditions where that wasn't a concern. So, as long as the majority of women are not degraded, it's okay to degrade some of them.

 

So, I suppose it would also be okay to maintain segregation on a minority of poor blacks. It would be okay because it wouldn't bring down the whole race, only those unfortunate enough to be born in those unfortunate circumstances. It would suck to be them, but that's life.

 

Let me ask you this honestly: do you think that prostitution degrades the prostitute? I ask because I do understand that there are a wide variety of opinions, and there are people who believe that you could somehow be a prostitute and still maintain your dignity in the work. I would refer those people to the earlier posts that explain the difference in the level of degradation between a janitor and a prostitute, specifically due to sex.

This is a total red herring on your part and you know it.

 

Yes, but I present this to encourage debate and more critical thinking. We sometimes need metaphors to help us understand positions- I think the segregation/prostitution metaphor is useful as a tool to understand the economics of degradation.

 

If I come up with a better metaphor I'll share it.

[melrich]

Jaded, why haven't you learnt how to quote yet?

[CaptainPlanet]

If its legal in a legal brothel, they won't be able to. The 13 or 14 year olds will remain illegal, thats a problem for a society.

 

Tell me this, illegal prostitution hasn't stopped 13-14 y/o streetwalkers, obviously, because you're talking about them now, why should legalising it and providing women with rules and regulations, thereforeeee protection if they chose to work in a legal registered brothel make the situation worse ?

[JadedStar]

Jaded, why haven't you learnt how to quote yet?

 

Hey - I have. I just like to do it that way. I'm a slave to my habits.

 

LOL I even know how to quote using code. And the easier way. Please don't make me not be stubborn and set in my ways Melrich.

 

If i am quoting half posts i do it in a millisecond my way lol

[Superfreak]

Oh- I think I see now! So it is okay to degrade some women and not others. More specifically- it is okay to degrade women who don't have the financial resources to escape the life of degradation that their poverty condemns them to, but it is not okay to degrade women who were born into conditions where that wasn't a concern. So, as long as the majority of women are not degraded, it's okay to degrade some of them.

 

You are absolutely grasping at straws now. Since when did 100% of low income women become prostitutes? And what don't you get about the fact that it's through legalization of prostitution that we would be able to weed out the worst elements of prostitution such as beatings and rapes making it far less degrading and dangerous work. Even with it underground much of it is consensual, with it legalized ALL of it would be consensual since we could cut brutal pimps or drug dealers that trap prostitutes that would otherwise want to get out of this lifestyle out of the picture completely.

 

So, I suppose it would also be okay to maintain segregation on a minority of poor blacks. It would be okay because it wouldn't bring down the whole race, only those unfortunate enough to be born in those unfortunate circumstances. It would suck to be them, but that's life.

 

What don't you understand about the fact that in our society everyone has a CHOICE. Yes, believe it or not, women choose to become hookers. And you can't use the fact that some teenage runaways may be tricked by pimps in to a life of prostitution because this WOULDNT HAPPEN if prostitution was LEGALIZED. If it was legalized, then it would be cleaned up and nobody would be "tricked" in to becoming a prostitute, all would do it of there own accord. It's YOU that's suppressing these women by insisting it should remain illegal and underground meaning no shred of accountability in making sure prostitutes basic human rights are respected.

 

Let me ask you this honestly: do you think that prostitution degrades the prostitute? I ask because I do understand that there are a wide variety of opinions, and there are people who believe that you could somehow be a prostitute and still maintain your dignity in the work. I would refer those people to the earlier posts that explain the difference in the level of degradation between a janitor and a prostitute, specifically due to sex.

 

I think there are prostitutes that enjoy the easy money that comes with the work(look at some of the high end brothels in Vegas for example). To be honest, if I got to choose my own clients I wouldn't mind being paid for sex at all (and yes, many escorts do refuse clients for any number of reasons). Is it degrading? Well I don't think prostitution as an occupation will ever be looked upon as anything other then low status, nor should it since it doesn't require much intelligence to do and requires no special skills. But degrading is a subjective word, hell you could probably find escorts that find the idea of being a middle-school janitor disgusting.

[Luke Skywalker]

I think that certain community standards have to be upheld.

 

Communities that have honest law-abiding citizens who are trying to raise families shouldn't have to tolerate seeing prostitutes hussling for clients, or coming accross lewd acts on the street, or inside a car. Imagine a kid comes around a car to see a hooker giving a bj to her old client through the window, or how about a yonge pubescent boy seeing a semi-nude hooker on the streets. Selling porn to minors is illegal - then minors should be shielded from this sort of stuff or it's influence.

 

The cases where cops are busting these prostitutes, I bet, are mostly in the enforcement of these community standards. People complain that drug needles and condoms are seen in their front lawn, schools, and that's no longer safe for kids. Police have to take action and clean up the neighbourhood before the Real-Estate values start plummeting and it turns into some ghetto with people leaving.

 

My opinion of this thing ends there - if some adult to adult business or whatever wants to go on away from the sanctity of a family community, then so be it, I believe the enforcement of such laws would vary depending on where it is because the police know they are going to continue doing what they are doing - as long as it's not in someone's back yard.

[pianoguy]

Regarding Melrich's posts-

 

First off, I didn't mean to imply that everybody in Australia or that people who support the legalization of prostitution are chauvinists. I'm sorry if it looked like that's what I meant to say. It's not. I'm sorry.

 

I think, after reading your posts, that I understand what the Australian government is trying to accomplish, and to some extent they have succeeded in that. The attitude seems to be, prostitution is not good, but it's a fact of life and rather than trying to eliminate it, which is naive, we should concentrate on regulating it and creating safe environments for the prostitutes. It's not a perfect situation, but pragmatically it seems to be the best solution.

 

I think that is fundamentally a very humane position to take, and I respect the people who believe in this position.

 

My concern is, as you say, that the ethical issues are being forced out of the picture. At its root, this is an ethical issue. The fundamental issue is this: Do we, or do we not, believe that prostitution is unethical? If we believe that it is unethical, we should ban it, and if not, we should legalize it.

 

The case has been made fairly strongly on this board that prostitution is unethical because it promotes the idea that women are sexual objects. Rather than rehash the arguments, I will refer everybody to resonancetheory's post on page 4 which makes this case strongly and eloquently. As a society, we have over a millennia of patriarchal domination behind us. We need to be very careful with these issues.

 

You say that brothels now have stock exchanges, clean situations, safe conduits to the police, etc. etc. You are implying that the degradation that is inherent in prostitution is because of the conditions that attend it. This is not the case. Regardless of how safe or clean prostitution becomes, it will always be inherently degrading to the woman. Prostitution says this: A woman's body can be bought and sold. That, at its heart, is what prostitution is. It's not about buying love, or companionship, it's about buying a woman's body. Just as you would buy broccoli, or a bowl of petunias, so too can you buy a woman's body.

 

This is why prostitution is degrading to women. It's not because it is a dirty and unsafe job. There are many dirty and unsafe jobs and they are not degrading. Prostitution is, because it says that sex is a commodity that can be sold, and traded on the open market.

 

You say that the law is primarily pragmatic. I fully understand. But the truth is, all laws make some ethical statement or another, and legalization does imply a degree of acceptance, or at least compliance. While it may not encourage young women to become whores, it does say, at a very fundamental level, that it is an acceptable career choice.

 

Will banning prostitution eliminate it? Of course not. But I think that legalizing something that we know to be immoral because we cannot control it is admitting failure. All civilized countries ban murder, but that hasn't prevented killings from taking place. (Note, I'm not saying that prostitution and murder are equally wrong)

 

These laws do have very real implications on the moral position of the West in the world. We routinely mock Arab and middle-eastern society for degrading women through the use of arcane religious laws and dress. Yet, is it not safe to say that the most effective way to degrade a woman is to tell her that her body is a saleable good? A burka is nothing compared to a whorehouse.

 

I understand that these are complex issues, but I don't think that it is a tenable position that prostitution is morally permissable. As such, laws that imply this are also morally misguided, regardless of the good intentions behind them.

[Dako]

I may be argued that the prostitute has the power, since she leaves the transaction with something of value.

[pianoguy]

Since when did 100% of low income women become prostitutes?

I never said that! Please quit misquoting me. I said that nearly all prostitutes are poor. That is a fact, if you need statistics to back it up I will gladly provide them.

And what don't you get about the fact that it's through legalization of prostitution that we would be able to weed out the worst elements of prostitution such as beatings and rapes making it far less degrading and dangerous work. Even with it underground much of it is consensual, with it legalized ALL of it would be consensual since we could cut brutal pimps or drug dealers that trap prostitutes that would otherwise want to get out of this lifestyle out of the picture completely.

I address this in my above post to Melrich.

 

Yes, believe it or not, women choose to become hookers.

Not willingly. That is my point. No self-respecting woman chooses to become a prostitute. They only choose because they have no other choice, economically. If you choose something because you have no choice, that is not a choice at all.

 

And you can't use the fact that some teenage runaways may be tricked by pimps in to a life of prostitution because this WOULDNT HAPPEN if prostitution was LEGALIZED. If it was legalized, then it would be cleaned up and nobody would be "tricked" in to becoming a prostitute, all would do it of there own accord.

That's patently ridiculous and I'm sure that Melrich can provide some data from Australia to back me up.

But degrading is a subjective word, hell you could probably find escorts that find the idea of being a middle-school janitor disgusting.

I address this in my post to Melrich. There's a difference between having a dirty job and believing that it is okay to sell your body.

[pianoguy]

I may be argued that the prostitute has the power, since she leaves the transaction with something of value.

 

It may also be argued that, if the price is right, it is okay to sell your children into slavery.

 

It is not okay to sell some things. Your body is one of them.

[Luke Skywalker]

Regarding Melrich's posts-

 

Prostitution says this: A woman's body can be bought and sold. That, at its heart, is what prostitution is.

 

Or it's saying that a woman has a choice of what she can do with her on body and could sell it if she wants to, just like she can sleep with anyone she wants to and whatever terms she wants to.

 

It's not about buying love, or companionship, it's about buying a woman's body. Just as you would buy broccoli, or a bowl of petunias, so too can you buy a woman's body.

 

Or, you are buying her company and time. What two consenting adults, a gentleman and a lady do, is completely up to them behind closed doors.

 

 

It's not because it is a dirty and unsafe job. There are many dirty and unsafe jobs and they are not degrading. Prostitution is, because it says that sex is a commodity that can be sold, and traded on the open market.

 

 

Yeah, but a woman could do what she wants with her body. Isn't that the new feminism or something - like what they say in pro-choice movements?

If a woman chooses that she's happy with that particular lifestyle, then that is her choice.

 

You say that the law is primarily pragmatic. I fully understand. But the truth is, all laws make some ethical statement or another, and legalization does imply a degree of acceptance, or at least compliance. While it may not encourage young women to become whores, it does say, at a very fundamental level, that it is an acceptable career choice.

 

Right, then porn should be illegal and everyone who views it should be put into jail, right - we can talk about porn stars while we are at it.

 

Again, I find it interesting that pro-choice arguments on abortion is accepted on the premise a woman can do what she wants with her body and a fetus is part of her body - would seem more ethical than allowing a woman to sell her body, but again, that's another story.

[Luke Skywalker]

I Not willingly. That is my point. No self-respecting woman chooses to become a prostitute. They only choose because they have no other choice, economically. If you choose something because you have no choice, that is not a choice at all.

 

If I had to sell my own body to survive, I'd say screw it and allow myself to die if I needed the money to buy food and trust God to bail me out of whatever situation I'm coersed in, because God will provide. Unless you are confined and forced to be at a place physically, there is always a choice.

 

Anyway, I've read them on profiles on adultfriendfinder and I've read some real sick stuff from some of the women on there when I frequented the site on November, 2006. Women like to have sex - and some women like to express themselves by doing stuff like this. Maybe it's a phase or some sort of thing with some people.

[pianoguy]

Or it's saying that a woman has a choice of what she can do with her on body and could sell it if she wants to, just like she can sleep with anyone she wants to and whatever terms she wants to.

 

Yeah, but a woman could do what she wants with her body. Isn't that the new feminism or something - like what they say in pro-choice movements?

If a woman chooses that she's happy with that particular lifestyle, then that is her choice.

I've already addressed this at great length. It is not freedom to be forced to sell your body. Prostitutes do not sleep with whoever they want. They sleep in exchange for dollars. It is a form of sexual servitude. It is nearly the opposite of freedom.

If I had to sell my own body to survive, I'd say screw it and allow myself to die and trust God to bail me out of whatever situation I'm coersed in. Unless you are confined and forced to be at a place physically, there is always a choice.

 

You are basically proving my point when you say that you'd rather die than be a prostitute.

[Dako]

It may also be argued that, if the price is right, it is okay to sell your children into slavery.

 

It is not okay to sell some things. Your body is one of them.

 

Children are other people, so it's a leap from self-determination to slavemarketing.

Some women are surrogate mothers, some people sell plasma, bone marrow or other carnal bits. I'm leaving my cadaver for dissection.

 

I was addressing the balance of power in the transaction, not condoning it.

[Luke Skywalker]

I've already addressed this at great length. It is not freedom to be forced to sell your body. Prostitutes do not sleep with whoever they want.

 

Yes they do, try going with a prostitute if you are poor and have no money, then you will be rejected, thereforeeee, they only like guys with money.

[pianoguy]

Children are other people, so it's a leap from self-determination to slavemarketing.

Some women are surrogate mothers, some people sell plasma, bone marrow or other carnal bits. I'm leaving my cadaver for dissection.

 

Selling plasma is not the same as selling sex. It's not degrading to sell plasma.

 

As for the self-determination argument- if you want to argue that it is okay to sell yourself into slavery in exchange for dollars, I'm certainly not going to stand in your way. Most civilized countries will, however. I will merely scratch my head, look at you quizzically, and move on.

 

Yes they do, try going with a prostitute if you are poor and have no money, then you will be rejected, thereforeeee, they only like guys with money.

Thank you for agreeing with me.