Escorts and other forms of "prostitution"

[Luke Skywalker]

You are basically proving my point when you say that you'd rather die than be a prostitute.

 

No, I'm proving my point that there is always a choice.

 

If I liked sex and it was within my moral parameters and there were no STD's, and I had no moral responsibility and a version of god allowed indiscriminate sex in my religion - then believe me, I'm hungry like a horse, and I'd do any woman without respect to how pretty, ugly, fat, skinny, race, creed, age, etc.... I wouldn't are, for free.

 

Prostitution with males however, is not going with women, it means allowing guy to stick their thing in your butt or mouth for money - and I'm not gay, and I'd rather die than get into any gay stuff - made no point about prostitution between a male and a female. Street guys sometimes do these types of tricks. I'd rather die than go there.

[Luke Skywalker]

Thank you for agreeing with me.

 

How is that agreeing with me, aren't they choosing to reject guys who have no money? They are exercising choice!

[CaptainPlanet]

I think the most moral standing is the one that reduces human suffering.

[Dako]

Selling plasma is not the same as selling sex. It's not degrading to sell plasma. .

 

I'd have given odds you'd ignore renting a womb and go for that.

LOL.

[pianoguy]

No, I'm proving my point that there is always a choice.

 

If I liked sex and it was within my moral parameters and there were no STD's, and I had no moral responsibility and a version of god allowed indiscriminate sex in my religion - then believe me, I'm hungry like a horse, and I'd do any woman without respect to how pretty, ugly, fat, skinny, race, creed, age, etc.... I wouldn't are, for free.

 

That's an awful lot of ifs, I must say. You have a lot of conditions before you would willingly be a prostitute. It is sad that most prostitutes do not have the luxury of choice that you do.

 

If it is a choice between starving to death and being a prostitute, that is not a fair choice. You say that you would choose death, but do not be overhasty to condemn those who would choose the life of a prostitute. It is not a free choice.

[Taomagicdragon]

How is that agreeing with me, aren't they choosing to reject guys who have no money? They are exercising choice!

 

Pimps want money, the more money the better.

Pimps abuse and beat girls who do not meet a nightly quota

Girls do as few acts as possible to meet that quota

Simple math dictates the richer will fulfill that quota faster than the poor.

 

It's not freedom of choice, it's logic to avoid as much degradation as possible.

[Downforthecount]

It's pretty simple really.

 

The only reason it's illegal is because the government can't profit off of it.

 

/thread

[pianoguy]

I'd have given odds you'd ignore renting a womb and go for that.

LOL.

 

Please do not waste my time with semantics. If you want to argue that renting a womb is a form of prostitution, or as ethically defensible as prostitution, then make your argument. I'd have given odds that you'd have no answer to my statement that it is bizarre to believe that it is okay to sell yourself into slavery.

[Luke Skywalker]

That's an awful lot of ifs, I must say. You have a lot of conditions before you would willingly be a prostitute.

 

I'm not talking about male and female relations I've made that clear. I just said that if I liked sex and it was within my moral framework to do so, then I may entertain having it indiscriminately with women who want to have sex with me.

 

It is sad that most prostitutes do not have the luxury of choice that you do.

 

If you wish to compare male on male prostitution to female to male prostitution? But, I dont think most prostitutes are lesbians and are going against their orientation to have sex with guys though. Would pretty much make this whole thing moot. Thus if a prostitute is not a lesbian, then she's not going against her orientation.

[melrich]

My concern is, as you say, that the ethical issues are being forced out of the picture. At its root, this is an ethical issue.

 

Well actually, the moral issues are are forced out of the picture.

 

Morally you may not accept homosexuality but ethically people have a fundamental right of choice about their sexuality.

 

Morally you may be against prostitution but ethically, if it going to exist they should have a right to the same protection as the rest of society.

 

Morals are about what you see as right or wrong. Ethics are generally about what is seen as the greater good and some may outweigh others.

 

The attitude seems to be, prostitution is not good, but it's a fact of life and rather than trying to eliminate it, which is naive, we should concentrate on regulating it and creating safe environments for the prostitutes.

 

Yes that is about it.

[Luke Skywalker]

Pimps want money, the more money the better.

Pimps abuse and beat girls who do not meet a nightly quota

Girls do as few acts as possible to meet that quota

Simple math dictates the richer will fulfill that quota faster than the poor.

 

It's not freedom of choice, it's logic to avoid as much degradation as possible.

 

Lots of escorts are independent these days.

[melrich]

Prostitution says this: A woman's body can be bought and sold.

 

No, that is a value judgement, a moral judgement.

 

You can buy a woman's body for modelling, a man's body for labor, a woman's body for sex.

 

Where you place the fact that sex is the service comes down to your moral values and they are personal, not always right, not always wrong.

[Taomagicdragon]

Lots of escorts are independent these days.

 

Then let's look at it from a money-making perspective. If it;s a job, they want money. If you're poor, you lack money. Seems fairly obvious that it;s not choice, it's economical logic.

[melrich]

That's patently ridiculous and I'm sure that Melrich can provide some data from Australia to back me up.

 

I don't have any data. It is not an area that elnds itself to easy data or statistics.

 

make no mistake, we still have illegal prostitution here and we probably still have under age prostitutes working here.

 

But the norm, the common transaction, is in safe, clean premises and with workers who are similarly safe and clean and appropriately paid.

 

We all know the horror stories and the extremes of this industry. There will always be people desperate enough to act illegally (and there are still most certainly age requirements here. You have to be licensed or working under a license here to be legal).

[CaptainPlanet]

Then let's look at it from a money-making perspective. If it;s a job, they want money. If you're poor, you lack money. Seems fairly obvious that it;s not choice, it's economical logic.

 

Thats interesting and the suggestion that a woman would have no other economic choice but to become a prostitute raises many other issues, that may not be true, or may not be accepted that I doubt would be popular here or tolerated.

 

The only way legal prostitution could harm prostitutes that I can see is as follows:

 

Wages and conditions in other industries are so low and so poor, that women are better off as prostitutes - this excludes drug addicts ect.

 

thereforeeee with legalisation you see a flood of women into the industry.

 

Given poor regulation and conditions in other industries, prostitution is impossible to regulate and standards are not followed. Meaning many more women are introducted to the same sinister world as before, only now it is easier for the pimps and more widespread and accepted.

 

If that is the case I would say wherever it is that you live has much more dire problems that need to be looked at before prostitution. Otherwise you're chasing your tale, for every woman you save, there will be two more to take her place.

 

Attack it at the root of the problem.

[melrich]

If you're poor, you lack money.

 

This may again be a cultural difference but the perception here would not be that the women working in prostitution are desperate and poor. By far the greatest majority of women working in legal brothels here are students. It is similar in the lap dancing clubs.

 

Many women do go into this industry as a matter of choice, not desperate need. But again that may be very different in say the US where it is underground and illegal.

[Taomagicdragon]

This may again be a cultural difference but the perception here would not be that the women working in prostitution are desperate and poor. By far the greatest majority of women working in legal brothels here are students. It is similar in the lap dancing clubs.

 

Many women do go into this industry as a matter of choice, not desperate need. But again that may be very different in say the US where it is underground and illegal.

 

I was referring to why a prostitute would not want to service a poor person, because poor people lack money to pay them with.

 

I was referring to luke's question about why poor people aren't serviced by prostitutes not trying to say poor people become prostitutes.

[pianoguy]

Well actually, the moral issues are are forced out of the picture.

 

Morally you may not accept homosexuality but ethically people have a fundamental right of choice about their sexuality.

 

Morally you may be against prostitution but ethically, if it going to exist they should have a right to the same protection as the rest of society.

 

Haha- well played Melrich, well played.

 

It may surprise you to learn, that I believe that, if it were demonstrated that homosexuality was morally wrong that it would be perfectly justifiable to legislate against it. Obviously, I do not believe that this is the case.

 

You cannot divorce morality and ethics, you cannot divorce the law from ethics, hence you cannot divorce the law from morality.

 

I do think that it might be a wise policy to refrain from legislating in areas where there is a lot of moral disagreement. But just because there is disagreement now does not mean that someday there will never be widespread agreement. At one time slavery was considered a hot topic. There is now widespread agreement that it is morally wrong. Hence, we have created laws against it.

No, that is a value judgement, a moral judgement.

 

You can buy a woman's body for modelling, a man's body for labor, a woman's body for sex.

 

Yes, of course it is a value judgement. I have presented what I consider to be strong supporting reasons. I have yet to see somebody come forth on here and argue intelligently that a woman who sells her body for sex is not degrading herself. I do not believe that such an argument can be made, but I am willing to listen.

 

If you believe that sex is a commodity, that is your own belief, but until somebody cares to present a good argument as to why this should be the case, I will continue to hold my belief that it is not something that should be bought and sold.

[Luke Skywalker]

Then let's look at it from a money-making perspective. If it;s a job, they want money. If you're poor, you lack money. Seems fairly obvious that it;s not choice, it's economical logic.

 

Right, so I'm going to join the mafia and become a dope peddler, or even better, a hired assassin because I need money and I had no choice. Whatever.

[melrich]

I do not believe that such an argument can be made, but I am willing to listen.

 

You don't and won't believe it because that is what your values, your belief system tell you.

 

I understand that and I respect it.

 

But to me, I don't see it as degrading at all. I don't have to "prove it". It's how I think and that comes from my values and you should respect those likewise.

 

And morals and ethics are fundamentally different. Just because something is wrong in one group of people's minds does not override the rights of those people participating unless they are intruding on the rights of others.

[Taomagicdragon]

Right, so I'm going to join the mafia and become a dope peddler, or even better, a hired assassin because I need money and I had no choice. Whatever.

 

I never said one becomes a prostitute due to lack of choice I am saying that if one is a prostitute, their sexual acts are motivated by acquiring money, not personal choice/desire in the customer usually. Please read what I say and not draw your own conclusions by what I write.

 

Then again judging by the topic you've posted I suppose it make no difference with your "security blanket" to hide under.

[pianoguy]

But to me, I don't see it as degrading at all. I don't have to "prove it". It's how I think and that comes from my values and you should respect those likewise.

 

No, I'm sorry. If your culture taught that it was okay to murder I would not respect your views.

 

I don't mean this as a disrespect to your culture. This theory (cultural relativism) has been widely debunked- I wrote my philosophy term paper on this.

 

Anyways, we are veering off topic. I do in fact respect your views, but it's not simply because you believe it or because your society believes it. It's because I think there is a sound case that can be made supporting your views.

[melrich]

I am saying that if one is a prostitute, their sexual acts are motivated by acquiring money

 

Yes that would have to be true except for probably a minority who may be in it because they love anonymous sex.

 

My guess is the percentages would be closely mirrored in the global labor market. 90% work because they need money and 10% do it because they love ther jobs (they are not real figures BTW.)

[melrich]

If your culture taught that it was okay to murder I would not respect your views.

 

It's completely different. That is intruding grossly on the rights of another person which in my post I pointed out was an exception.

[melrich]

It's because I think there is a sound case that can be made supporting your views.

 

Yes there is. I don't use prostitutes, I would not want my daughter to be one, but I don't have any fundamental moral issue with the service.

 

If I did have a fundamental moral issue with it, I would still want them to have safe and clean work environments, I would want them off the streets and out of neighborhoods and I would want the workers, not the criminals behind them to access some of the profit.