Retroactive Infidelity.

[Luke Skywalker]

Yes I think there is a definitional issue here re 'giving' and 'sharing'. The first can imply giving the other person dominion over you, and the second tends to imply you retain some ownership.

 

 

Sharing occurs if both parties are virgins, giving occurs if one party is a non-virgin, becaue a non-virgin cant reciprocate back.

[Batya33]

That is presuming that a virgin gives something when he or she has sex for the first time. That is not my opinion. I waited first because I thought I would wait until I married, as my grandmother, mother and sister had done, and then, after I broke an engagement at age 23, I waited for a person I cared about and wanted to experience sex with. I never felt - and do not believe - that I "gave him" my virginity. As it was, I never considered myself to be virginal because of other experiences, I was just technically a virgin. If I gave anything, I gave myself the experience of having sex for the first time. It was a good experience.

[caro33]

Then why do virgin women have a hymen that produces blood when ruptured and nonvirgin women dont? Why did God make it that way? What's His intended purpose with such a design - or are you saying His point of making it that way is purely whimsical?

 

God also made tampons and horseriding - two things said to cause ruptures in the hymen.

 

Actually, the whole notion of the hymen being something that necessarily tears and bleeds upon first intercourse is a myth. I suggest you do some research and get to know your female anatomy. Google can take you to some interesting brochures for virgins and non-virgins on the hymen if you are interested.

[Luke Skywalker]

and, if this gift was so important (the gift of bonking) wouldn't one want to have some practice so they knew how to d o it?

 

Gift of virginity - that's not practised it's one time only. Bonking is not a gift in and of itself because it's not a one-time only -- obviously the breaking of the hymen only exists in your first bonk, other than that it's no longer special to any guy who goes there next.

[sophie274]

Sorry, typo:

 

Is it more acceptable (in your opinion) for men to have pre-marital sex than for women to do so? Is it more acceptable for a man to be a non-virgin than a woman?

[Luke Skywalker]

Sorry, typo:

 

Is it more acceptable (in your opinion) for men to have pre-marital sex than for women to do so? Is it more acceptable for a man to be a non-virgin than a woman?

 

No. This is a gender neutral concept.

[Rabican]

Any non-virgin is a retroactively infidelity case. Let's face it, you cheated on your future spouce, thus you have committed retroactive infidelity when you do meet your future spouce, gf, or whatever.

 

What do you think?

 

If you are a virgin, or value sexual integrity - then do you see that virginity is the highest gift that a man or a woman can offer each other, and once that's breached, then the man or woman is 'damaged goods' because the most important gift possible is damaged.

 

Do you view sexual integrity to be the highest value in a relationship? Has anyone been engaged to a virgin, and their would be finacee lost his/her virgin to some other guy, your best friend, or perhaps some player off the net?

 

Let's here your story, how you coped with it, and what is your take on this issue.

 

Sorry but that sounds like a big load of horse crap to me. There was a poll recently (not sure who did it, but i heard it on O' Reilly. Something like 95% of people have premarital sex. So were all cheating? Nope.... sorry that thinking doesnt work with me.

[Ellie2006]

What further clarification do you need from me at this point?

 

If you are so clear and comfortable with your perspective I would like to see you respond directly to the questions that have been asked of you, and most pertinently, the questions Ellie asked of you a while ago.

 

Sure, I'll answer them tomorrow, but I have to go to bed now.

 

 

Clearly and succinctly answer the following questions that you've evaded when I posed them earlier:

 

1. What is the connection between virginity and submissiveness?

2. What happens after two virgins give each other the ultimate "gift" of virginity and it turns out that the woman is no longer submissive? In this case, can the man ever "feel like a man" in relation to his dominant and assertive spouse, who, according to your standards, is no longer acting as a woman should?

3. What is *your* definition of masculinity and femininity? And how knowledgeable are you on the current academic and mainstream definitions of gender?

4. Please elaborate on your position re: "mail order brides" and "women who know their place": what is a woman's place, in your opinion? Would you agree that you hold a rather Eurocentric and phallocentric perception of women and what consititutes a "traditional" woman?

5. What has been your past and current SO's reception of your viewpoints about women?

 

Since you have shared your rather radical and problematic stance on gender/gender hierarchy/virginity, why not enlighten us further by answering the questions above?

 

..........

[Batya33]

Arguing the opposite extreme is a little transparent, don't you think? There is plenty of gray area where sex is part of and enhances a relationship but is not the focus of the relationship, not even close. Sexual attraction is essential to me in a romantic relationship - otherwise you're just friends. Sexual attraction doesn't just mean wanting to have intercourse - I can be very attracted and not in the mood to go all the way - there is of course kissing, holding, touching, etc that might be sexual or sensual but is not about intercourse or even all about sex - it is about demonstrating love and caring through physical affection.

 

I have dated many men without having sex with them - for months at a time, once for two years, once for over a year. I don't need a test drive, and I wait until we are committed, know each other well and see potential for the long term. I am grateful that I had experiences in my mid 20s and 30s because I would not have felt comfortable being in serious relationships in my 30s and having to reveal that I was still a virgin. And, I liked learning about that aspect of myself, how I reacted differently after that was part of the relationship - or not.

 

I never had casual sex and likely never will - no desire for it - and it goes against my values - but to say that people who don't wait for marriage presumably have sex as their sole focus is wrong, in my opinion.

 

You say your standards are somehow higher than someone who chooses to have premarital sex but my guess is from reading your other posts that you are also motivated to abstain by fear of being that vulnerable, fear of being rejected, maybe fear that you won't be good in bed. All of those fears are normal but don't kid yourself that your sole motivation is to save yourself and give your husband this gift. You seem to have a lot of anger and hostility toward men, you have all sorts of negative generalizations about men - so it doesn't make a lot of sense that you are solely motivated by wanting to give yourself to a man when you don't even seem to like men or interact with them as close friends.

[Caterina]

Some women are born without hymens. Also, women who do have hymens can break them while bike riding and as a previous poster said, riding horses.

 

I think that there are some precautions people should make when thinking about having sex with someone because its obviously something that has great meaning to a lot of people.

 

Anyways, this is an interesting topic because it brings up the problems that arise when men try to control women through idiomatic rules, as has been done in the past.

[Mr. Brightside]

Some women are born without hymens. Also, women who do have hymens can break them while bike riding and as a previous poster said, riding horses.

 

I think that there are some precautions people should make when thinking about having sex with someone because its obviously something that has great meaning to a lot of people.

 

Anyways, this is an interesting topic because it brings up the problems that arise when men try to control women through idiomatic rules, as has been done in the past.

 

Thank you! Couldn't have said it better!

 

One of my previous GFs broke hers playing hockey. She GAVE away her virginity to the sport of hockey. How dare she!

 

If people would spend this much time in contemplation of how to cure disease and keep healthy rather than finding devious means of controlling each other, we'd be much better off.

[Luke Skywalker]

Sorry but that sounds like a big load of horse crap to me. There was a poll recently (not sure who did it, but i heard it on O' Reilly. Something like 95% of people have premarital sex. So were all cheating? Nope.... sorry that thinking doesnt work with me.

 

A statistical argument is a weak argument because just because a majority or if possibly all people do something, it doesn't make it right.

[Mr. Brightside]

A statistical argument is a weak argument because just because a majority or if possibly all people do something, it doesn't make it right.

 

So are you one of those people that take the bible literally and tell women they are unclean each "time" of the month... protest that adulterists should be stoned to death... people that work on the Sabbath need to die as well?

 

Or are you just picking and choosing from the good book as so many do?

[Luke Skywalker]

Luke,

1. What is the connection between virginity and submissiveness?

 

I told you it's more of a relational value than an absolute value. If one person is a virgin and the other person is a nonvirgin, then one has experience and the other one does not, and I think to some degree if the man has less experience than the woman then he wont have the authority he should have as a man in that relationship/marriage, especially, if this is escarbated by other factors (i.e. the reason he is a virgin is partially because he is not good with girls and not popular with the ladies, while the woman has a wild history and is settling down - I dont see a woman as really being submissive to her man in that state).

 

 

2. What happens after two virgins give each other the ultimate "gift" of virginity and it turns out that the woman is no longer submissive? In this case, can the man ever "feel like a man" in relation to his dominant and assertive spouse, who, according to your standards, is no longer acting as a woman should?

 

The fact of just losing virginity is not a factor of being submissive, it is who it's lost to, and if it's another man other than the spouce in questios. If it's lost to the spouce, then I would assume in my thinking that she would remain submissive, as long as she's loyal to him for the rest of her life. So, in a sense that argument wont apply here.

 

 

3. What is *your* definition of masculinity and femininity? And how knowledgeable are you on the current academic and mainstream definitions of gender?

 

My definination of masculinity reflects strength, power, authority, dominance, being in charge, rationalisation over feeling, action over communicatin while feminity is loving chick-flicks, communication over action, seeing how something 'feels' as opposed to if it makes sense, etc....

 

4. Please elaborate on your position re: "mail order brides" and "women who know their place": what is a woman's place, in your opinion? Would you agree that you hold a rather Eurocentric and phallocentric perception of women and what consititutes a "traditional" woman?

 

A woman's place is equal to a man - but she is less in rank than a man in relationship, just as Jesus is equal to the Father, but different in rank than the Father in the Trinity, as a son is lower in rank conceptually to a father.

 

I'm unsure if these conceptions are Eurocentric or phallocentric - I just go by my own experiences, what I see, what the bible says, and what my mom sees the way things should be.

 

5. What has been your past and current SO's reception of your viewpoints about women?

 

I dont have an SO, or ever did in the past. My viewpoints about women aren't shared by those I know. I may put on a weird ad on the intimate section to strangers, and if anyone I know were to come accross it, then I do not know what their reaction would be. But, what's stated here is not expressed to other people in my life and is rather secret or hidden beliefs.

[charley]

Wow. That OP is very inflamatory. No offense to LukeSkyWalker, but it's going to draw a lot of heat, and I can see why.

 

There is no such thing as retroactive cheating. I think that's unreasonable. People shouldn't be that judgemental. Everyone has a past, especially as we get older.

 

At the same time, it's equally unfair to judge someone negatively because they're a virgin. That's the same discrimination in reverse.

 

Let's live and let live. If any of us want to be happy and have a mate, we have to accept their past, whether it be 10 lovers or 0. You cannot receive love and acceptance, until you give it. The love and the acceptance are a matched set. You can't have love without acceptance. Trust is also part of the matched set. If you're missing any of those things, I don't see how love is possible.

[charley]

After thought for OP. If dating or marrying a virgin is so important to you for religious reasons, then get setup through your church or church contacts. That's very commonly done.

 

Heck, I have relatives at one church who'd like to set me up and even have someone in mind. My cousin's wife's sister. Just to clarify, that makes us already related by marriage, but not by blood.

 

I have friends at another church who'd like to set me up. They don't have anyone specific in mind, but it's a nationwide church and they have sort of a network for that managed by the married women.

 

I could be setup and married off in no time, if that was my primary goal. Heck, the gal at my relative's church I already know and she's attractive, fun, and likes me. I like her too.

 

Here's the problem, both of those churches have some somewhat extreme views and lifestyles that I'm not prepared to adopt. If you get setup for marriage by a church, they'll have their finger in your marriage for life. No thanks.

 

However, maybe that'd be good for you. I'd bet money that 98% of the women they setup are virgins, and the other 2% will lie about it so you won't know.

 

That isn't the route I want to go, but maybe it'd be good for you. Then you could get what you want, live happily ever after (maybe), and have no reason to antagonize others who don't believe as you do.

 

Why haven't you gone the church setup route? Could it be that you're to judgemental even for ultra conservative church goers? Maybe something else? Not even the most conservative people I know would buy into the retroactive cheating idea. That's not even a Christian ideal, IMO. A key element of Christianity is that everyone can start over and begin a new life. You don't believe that.

 

Another part of Christianity is "judge not, lest you be judged". Well, the truth of that is evident right in this thread. Many have judged you as harshly as you judged them. If you believe the Bible, then you should know that it says God will judge you with the same level of fairness and mercy, or lack of, as you've judged others. It also says you aren't supposed to judge other people. I don't think your ideas are Christian, certainly not your most judgemental ideas, unless some misguided form of Christianity adjusted and manipulated to serve your personal ends.

 

So where are you getting this from? I'm sorry to say it, but personal bitterness is the likely source. If you want to be attactive to anyone, church women or anyone else, you're going to have to let go of your bitterness, stop being so judgemental, and give people a fair chance. Women tend to like nice men. The things you are saying are not nice.

 

FYI - I do believe that virginity is a gift, but I don't require it. I would only require love and monogamy. I also know that bitterness is NOT a gift to anyone. Let it go.

[shikashika]

I don't think your standards are higher... they are just different

 

I've seens some of your posts, and you seem to be a bit sad that you're nto meeting the right guy who will meet those standards... if you are so comfortable with those standards, then why unhappy with your dating life?

[shikashika]

Luke, reading though the 15 pages here it seems to me like because you dont' have sex and won't have sex, you are finding away to put down about 98% of the people on this board by telling them they are cheating on their future spouse.. because they are having sex.

 

i can't believe you are 30 years old and still say' well my mum says......'

 

 

A lot of what you are pulling your fact from is a from a book that hs no relevance to many people reading this thread.

 

if I gave my reasons for doing something as Shikashika's Book of wisdom... woudl you think 'wow.. it says it in hsikashika's book so yeah... must be right!"

[itsthatguy]

A statistical argument is a weak argument because just because a majority or if possibly all people do something, it doesn't make it right.

 

And just because a minority believe something else (read: you) doesn't make that right. Premarital sex is widely accepted by society and is deemed, for the most part, normal and "right" as you said. If you think having sex with someone before marriage is wrong and cheating on your potential future partner, I think you have a very misconstrued view of life.

[Luke Skywalker]

And just because a minority believe something else (read: you) doesn't make that right.

 

Well I think this debate is centred on a moral issue and a majority of people can not determine whether something is moral or immoral. For example, if the majority of people voted to exterminate a segment of people, then that would not make it right. Didn't a majority vote Hitler in at one point - does that make Hitler's policies right in Nazi Germany?

[Mr. Brightside]

Didn't a majority vote Hitler in at one point - does that make Hitler's policies right in Nazi Germany?

 

That is not accurate information. 70% of the people voted against him. He became dictator by a legislation act, disabling the German Constitution and then pretty much appointed himself.

 

Not saying this reference should have been made in the first place...

[caro33]

...I just go by my own experiences, what I see, what the bible says, and what my mom sees the way things should be.

I dont have an SO, or ever did in the past...

 

I think that the issue here is if you want to fit in and take others' perspectives on board or not. It seems you are split in this because if you did not care what the majority thinks, or did not care what people thought in general, you would not be posting here. You would not be continally posting here to get views on whether your own feelings are justified.

 

In most cases people are saying your choice of language is provocative, and you have also had the feedback that your interpretation of the Bible might be rather selective, not to mention, wrong. These are all opinions no doubt, and not necessarily 'better', but they reflect what many intelligent and educated people think of your statements.

 

And let's be frank. They are also the views of people who have much more experience than you. And it's not a matter of us all being defiled folk (aka non-virgins) whose opinions don't matter, I am talking people here who have had committed relationships, in many cases have God-fearing, Christian relationships. People who have also made their own paths in life and who have left their parents' nest.

 

It's easy for you to judge when you are in your own little world. But please recognise, it is a very small and selective world that you inhabit. I also wonder whether your mother wants to you ever leave her and form a relationship; whether she will ever approve of a woman for you, regardless of virginity status. She seems to have given you many reasons to think women are unclean and not good enough for you. Thirty years old is old enough to start questioning this.

[kadvati79]

I think the direction of this thread should be what we agree on rather than what we don't.

 

For one, I agree that sex is a very personal and intimate activity. I agree that only sharing this with someone you are committed to is very important (your defintion of "committment" may differ from mine, for example, I can't get married to my partner). I think there is a public health benefit from being more cautious about who one sleeps with, and while I can think of occasions where no romantic involvement occurred that were wonderful and lots of fun, there is always the public health factor.

 

I also agree that respecting other peoples beliefs regarding virginity, the sanctity of life, and sex in general, is very important. I would date someone who didn't want to have sex until "commitment", although I would naturally want to talk about it alot, and for them to appreciate that it is quite a unique relationship for me and that I might require quite a bit of support and encouragement.

 

There are many things that we don't all agree on in this thread. But we're never going to agree on them. And they're the kind of thing that won't be changed by reasoned argument. You can only change your mind on these things based on your own experiences.

[kadvati79]

Ok, caro33's post is much better than mine... lol... damn you!

[Aurian]

What if I saved myself for marriage and my husband turned into an abusive jerk? I'm ruined then? Or should I have stayed in a marriage where I was planning how to kill myself because I felt so small, worthless and pathetic? Sorry, I'd rather be a non-virgin "cheating" on a future spouse.

 

At any rate, while I know many people enjoy sex as simply fun and I respect their views, that is not me. I wanted to wait, because for me, sex is something very personal. To me, its not just sharing my body, but my mind and heart as well. So, even though I am not religious, my personal morality says that for me, sex waits until things are VERY serious and monogamous. I would have been happy with just one partner my whole life, but things didn't work out that way.

 

I expect my future partner to accept sex as an extremely meaningful gift even if I am no longer a virgin. Because that is, to me, what it is.