Retroactive Infidelity.

[quietgrl]

People who have lost their virginity with the wrong person has failed the right person who really deserved it. You infer this is a religious standard?

 

luke,

 

what an interesting point.

[yeawutever]

Yes icemotoboy makes a great point. There are people who give it away to their partners they love and it turns out to be a disaster so it's not their fault in that case nor the girls who were raped. Basically sex is now soo overrated that the only sole reason parents or other grown-up started getting so conservative and so into the whole "waiting till marriage" is b/c they are so worry you'll mess up but that's the whole point in learning through "trial_n_error", if it doesn't work, you get up from the floor and keep walking. By being so conservative, you'll conscious pushing the behavior further, instead of preventing, you'll in fact allowing it more.

 

By your post, you're stating that experienced people should not be given a chance for having a long-term commited relationship and should be alone forever, just b/c of their past, so basically you're condemining them.

[caro33]

Hi Luke,

 

Are you serious? Really? Do you honestly think a woman's virginity is the "best gift a woman has to offer a guy"? You have a low opinion of women it seems.

 

I am all for not spreading yourself around just for the hell of it. I am a true believer in respecting the sanctity of one's own body, and I hate seeing people devalue themselves. But when we are talking about informed, consenting adults, my view is that the basic act of having sex is not that big a deal. I know that when I lost my virginity it was "oh, so that's it?". The first time can be awkward, uncomfortable, and fast.

 

And as others have pointed out, many of us did not have the luxury of being omniscient and have that first relationship work out, even with the lifelong commitment being made. So we would be damaged and worthless the next time around? Or if my marriage fails can I be a born-again virgin?

 

You want a woman who has not been with another man, fine. You also see this as a sign of being submissive, which is interesting. The older virgins I know are the pickiest and least submissive women I know. I fear their expectations of the "lucky man" are so high they may never form a relationship, but that's their choice. I can't see any of these women ever going for a man who values their sex life (or lack of it) over their other attributes, and I think they'd just roll their eyes and walk away if you talking about it reflecting their higher capacity to submit to you.

[caro33]

Adding a few more thoughts. A virgin man and a non-virgin woman are a bad combination because how can you feel like a man if you are with someone with more experience than you have? As a guy wouldn't you feel intimidated or cheated on with an immodest partner? .

 

I imagine you would if you were insecure and judgemental.

 

I think that women who are non-virgins have a brazen look in their eyes and will...[not] know how to be submissive to their husbands as portrayed in the bible.

 

I think this is possibly the funniest thing I have read on this forum.

Good work.

[Ellie2006]

You want a woman who has not been with another man, fine. You also see this as a sign of being submissive, which is interesting. The older virgins I know are the pickiest and least submissive women I know.

 

Caro, I agree; although I am sure there are exceptions, this generally seems to be the case from what I've observed as well.

[quietgrl]

Virginity is a gift if you believe in commitment in a relationship and I guess virginity is going to be overratted or not a gift to people who aren't ready for commitment. Virginity hasn't changed at all.It's people views on virginity and commitment that has changed.

I'm a nonreligious virgin and I give luke created for throwing out these question for people too think about because There are alot of sex for commitment virgin out there( this is not about religion ).We're not rare at all. I wouldn't be fooled.

[caro33]

Virginity is a gift if you believe in commitment in a relationship and I guess virginity is going to be overratted or not a gift to people who aren't ready for commitment. Virginity hasn't changed at all.It's people views on virginity and commitment that has changed.

I'm a nonreligious virgin and I give luke created for throwing out these question for people too think about because There are alot of sex for commitment virgin out there( this is not about religion ).We're not rare at all. I wouldn't be fooled.

 

Hi quietgrl

 

You are a key person to ask then - what do you think about your virginity as the greatest gift you can offer a man? I am not saying that it is not tremendously meaningful and precious, or that your position is in any way unrealistic, but I wonder if we look at that statement, do you feel it is your greatest attribute?

 

Further, what about the issue of being submissive? Would you see yourself as "submitting" to your husband when the time came?

[quietgrl]

Ailec1987,

 

This has nothing to do with being consevative, liberal, being exposed to sex or not being exposed to sex if you value commitment.A person going to wait for sex and if you don't value commitment .A person not going to wait for the right person or demand that a person gives them their wants and need outside of the bedroom.

You don't need outercourse or intercourse to learn how to keep a Lt relationship or marriage good.A parent knows once sex enter theri child life.There child going to be a puppy going throw hoops with their BF/GF and not be totally foucs on other things.

[kadvati79]

What exactly is the link between commitment and virginity?

 

"Virginity is a gift if you believe in commitment in a relationship. I guess virginity is going to be overratted or not a gift to people who aren't ready for commitment."

 

That is a classic example of circular reasoning. I can see no correlation between virgnity and commitment in a relationship. Virgnity relates to your sexual experiences in the PAST. Commitment relates to your sexual (and life) experiences in the FUTURE.

 

People make mistakes. You "gift" your virgnity to your husband, and the two of you end up unhappy together later on in the relationship. So you get a divorce. Does that mean that you will be "less" of a wife to your next partner?

[Ellie2006]

Luke,

 

I'll agree w/ Quietgrl and give it to you that you have given all of us something to think about re: virginity, commitment, submissiveness, etc etc.

 

So please help me understand by clearly and succinctly answering the following questions that you've evaded when I posed them earlier:

 

1. What is the connection between virginity and submissiveness?

2. What happens after two virgins give each other the ultimate "gift" of virginity and it turns out that the woman is no longer submissive? In this case, can the man ever "feel like a man" in relation to his dominant and assertive spouse, who, according to your standards, is no longer acting as a woman should?

3. What is *your* definition of masculinity and femininity? And how knowledgeable are you on the current academic and mainstream definitions of gender?

4. Please elaborate on your position re: "mail order brides" and "women who know their place": what is a woman's place, in your opinion? Would you agree that you hold a rather Eurocentric and phallocentric perception of women and what consititutes a "traditional" woman?

5. What has been your past and current SO's reception of your viewpoints about women?

 

 

Since you have shared your rather radical and problematic stance on gender/gender hierarchy/virginity, why not enlighten us further by answering the questions above?

[annie24]

This reminds me of the Dr. Phil Show. When Dr. Phil asks the guest why they have come on the show and they go on a long rant about whatever it is that is bothering them, and how they think that things would be better if the household/workplace/etc... were run in this way.....

 

And Dr. Phil asks, "So.... how's that working out for you?" And of course, the audience laughs, because they know that if the guest's ideas were working out, they wouldn't be on the Dr. Phil show!

[caro33]

This reminds me of the Dr. Phil Show. When Dr. Phil asks the guest why they have come on the show and they go on a long rant about whatever it is that is bothering them, and how they think that things would be better if the household/workplace/etc... were run in this way.....

 

And Dr. Phil asks, "So.... how's that working out for you?" And of course, the audience laughs, because they know that if the guest's ideas were working out, they wouldn't be on the Dr. Phil show!

 

Yes, that's a great observation annie.

[Luke Skywalker]

I put up an ad yesterday on lavalife on the relationship section that expresses similar throughts on this thread, so far, no response, probably touching more nerves with the 'retroactive' thing then anything else. But I dont mind, better I get no response then all the wrong ones.

 

Something got into me yesterday, I wrote that ad, compiled this thread, I dont know what happened. I think this is a very private matter for women and it's like an eww thing. I cant describe what came over me yesterday, but it just hit me out of nowhere.

[caro33]

I put up an ad yesterday on lavalife on the relationship section that expresses similar throughts on this thread, so far, no response, probably touching more nerves with the 'retroactive' thing then anything else. But I dont mind, better I get no response then all the wrong ones.

 

Something got into me yesterday, I wrote that ad, compiled this thread, I dont know what happened. I think this is a very private matter for women and it's like an eww thing. I cant describe what came over me yesterday, but it just hit me out of nowhere.

 

You can't pull out now, you started this and we are all fired up! Oh well.

 

Out of interest though, what are the 'wrong' reactions? How would you characterise them?

 

I am also still really interested in your response to Ellie's questions, if you have time.

[Batya33]

Any non-virgin is a retroactively infidelity case. Let's face it, you cheated on your future spouce, thus you have committed retroactive infidelity when you do meet your future spouce, gf, or whatever.

 

What do you think?

 

If you are a virgin, or value sexual integrity - then do you see that virginity is the highest gift that a man or a woman can offer each other, and once that's breached, then the man or woman is 'damaged goods' because the most important gift possible is damaged.

 

Do you view sexual integrity to be the highest value in a relationship? Has anyone been engaged to a virgin, and their would be finacee lost his/her virgin to some other guy, your best friend, or perhaps some player off the net?

 

Let's here your story, how you coped with it, and what is your take on this issue.

 

To me infidelity means having sex with someone other than you partner when you are committed to that partner. There is no such thing as retroactive infidelity because you cannot be unfaithful to someone before ( or after) you are committed to that person.

 

I value sexual integrity but do not define it in the way you do. I do not see virginity as the highest gift one can offer to another - you packed your question with your presumption and I disagree with that presumption.

 

I think sexual monogamy is important to a relationship where the two people have promised each other monogamy and/or exclusivity. If someone has sex outside the relationship they breach that trust.

[Luke Skywalker]

I think you are Christian, correct?

 

I really don't think the idea that a woman must be entirely submissive to her husband is coming from your faith, but from your insecurity in dealing with women and from your lack of dating/relationship experience.

 

It's what the Bible says - it's in Ephesians, I read it this morning.

 

You seem really caught up in the idea that dating is a game, that someone must have the upper-hand ... and that you must find someone as inexperienced as your only way to win this game.

 

I'm not talking about dating here, I'm talking about values, and the idea that virginity is the most important gift a woman can give a man. Cause, once a man has already been in there, then it's unfair to someone who didn't go with someone before.

 

It's not about winning. I think most people on this board accept partners who are not virgins because they view dating as a learning experience, and a relationship as something in which they can learn and be taught and grow, rather than a game with a winner and a loser.

 

Right, but most of those people are non-virgins going with non-virgins so it doesn't count. If most virgins on this board were going with non-virgins, then I'd see your point.

 

I think you will have trouble finding a woman who fits your bill, because a lot of virgin women don't equate their virginity with a desire for submission, and your attitude towards non-virgin women (which seems really disdainful) seems to betray a lack of respect for women in general.

 

 

 

Read this, then tell me again what betrays a lack of respect for women.

[Luke Skywalker]

"There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: Who art thou that judgest another?" James 4:12

 

People make judgements about things all the time. Jesus said 'by their fruits (actions), you shall know them. You judge what people do, not what people say cause talk is cheap. I think you are confusing concepts.

 

You are not God. Whether or not you enjoy being judged is neither here nor there; it is not for you to judge. You judge according to the flesh, because you are not born again of the Spirit. If you were born of the Spirit, you would judge according to the Spirit, and not be blinded by the flesh. You are worldly.

 

But you are making a judgement that I'm worldly then. Are you practising what you are preaching?

 

You speak of judgment as if it were nothing.

 

Trust me, you need judgement every day to govern daily affairs. One needs to walk wisely and in good judgement, so to be sure, it's very important to be prudent and use time wisely, again, that requires judgement.

 

Christ forebear to judge; yet you assume you can. Jesus told us not to judge.

 

The prince of this world is judged and that was not forbeared.

 

It is not a matter of your feelings; you cannot judge another person and be Christian.

 

So I guess you are not a Christian since you judged me above.

 

For you to assume that a woman who is not a virgin cannot be pure and obedient to God is foolish, since purity and obedience are matters of the soul, not the flesh.

 

But God is coming for a church that is without spot or wrinkle. Analogies is made between marriage and Christ's love for the church all the time, which is why the institution in the Christian faith is so important. The marriage bed is pure and holy. Anything else is a defilement.

 

Like a pig being put into the ancient Temple under Antichicus Epiphines when the Greeks ruled over Israel and the temple was defiled. In the Apocrapha, it stated that a woman who is immodest has a brazen and bold look in her eyes. In the book of Numbers, Levite priests are commanded to only marry virgins. All in the bible.

 

 

Judge after the flesh and you will receive the reward all flesh receives.

 

Prove it by scripture - show chapter and verse. Anyway, nobody is being judged - everyone is condemned without Christ anyway, virgin or non-virgin, as all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Thus the blood of Christ must be applied to everyone.

 

The point of virgin/non-virgin is based on the 'bold and brazen' look that comes from immodesty and transference of demonic spirits arising from sex. Whatever demons are inside a person are transfered by sexual intercourse, and is a by-product of defilement.

 

 

But perhaps you are not Christian? In which case, I apologize for expecting you to know Christian teaching:

 

Said in a judgemental tone. So you would like to preach to me about judgement BY judging me?

 

"Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you. For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: But the publicans and the harlots believed him, and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him." Matthew 21:31-32.

 

Now you are thowing bible verses and trying to judge me again.

 

Darn, the mods will lock this thread if we continue judging each other.

[Luke Skywalker]

So according to you, then you would condemn me for giving it to the worng person just b/c he had experience before. It's not about the past, it's about the present two people who are in love share with each other.

 

Why would I condemn you? I'm not talking about you. I'm talking about how difficult it is for me to find anyone up here in Canada. I'm glad that you are happy with your relationship.

 

It's not about condemnation - if you gave your most important gift to your bf, thus I hope it works out in the end.

[annie24]

All I can say to you Luke is Good luck! I hope your method works out for you and I hope you find what you are looking for. I find it a bit odd you posted on lavalife as that it's a site that tends to have a lot of "sex hookups" on it, but whatever, that's your perogative. I hope you find a woman with a similar mindset, but my personal opinion is that if you stay on this current path, you will wind up a lonely old man.

[Luke Skywalker]

By your post, you're stating that experienced people should not be given a chance for having a long-term commited relationship and should be alone forever, just b/c of their past, so basically you're condemining them.

 

I never said that. I said virgin people with virgin people and nonvirgin people with nonvirgin people - that's the whole spirit of the thread.

 

So, read your words carefully, I'm stating that experienced people should not be given a chance for having a long-term commited relationship with a VIRGIN person because a virgin guy cant be a MAN with a non-virgin woman.

[kadvati79]

This reminds me of the Dr. Phil Show. When Dr. Phil asks the guest why they have come on the show and they go on a long rant about whatever it is that is bothering them, and how they think that things would be better if the household/workplace/etc... were run in this way.....

 

And Dr. Phil asks, "So.... how's that working out for you?" And of course, the audience laughs, because they know that if the guest's ideas were working out, they wouldn't be on the Dr. Phil show!

 

anne24, you are my new personal hero this week... hilarious! and so true I must remember that line...

[Luke Skywalker]

All I can say to you Luke is Good luck! I hope your method works out for you and I hope you find what you are looking for. I find it a bit odd you posted on lavalife as that it's a site that tends to have a lot of "sex hookups" on it, but whatever, that's your perogative. I hope you find a woman with a similar mindset, but my personal opinion is that if you stay on this current path, you will wind up a lonely old man.

 

Adultfriendfinder is sex hookups. Lavalife has three sections: dating, relationship and intimate section. Intimate section is for hookups. Relationship is for stuff like I'm posting here, and if you think this thread is harsh, that profile is ten times worst. The opening line to it is "what did YOU do with your most important gift?" and the rest of the profile goes deep into this. No smiles or response on it so far. Oh well.

[caro33]

...I'm stating that experienced people should not be given a chance for having a long-term commited relationship with a VIRGIN person because a virgin guy cant be a MAN with a non-virgin woman.

 

I am intrigued by this Luke. Do you define 'man' as someone who deflowers his woman? Is this your own self-definition?

[Ellie2006]

probably touching more nerves with the 'retroactive' thing then anything else.

 

No, the "retroactive" comment was the least of *my* concerns -- as I said before, albeit problematic, it was a novel idea that prompted an interesting discussion about virginity, commitment, masculinty, femininity, submissiveness, gender hierarchy, "mail order brides" etc..

 

Others may have taken issues with other matters, but for me at least, it was your subsequent comments about women that I found disconcerting.

 

I think this is a very private matter for women and it's like an eww thing.

 

Definitions of gender and social perceptions about virginity, (in)fidelity, committment are NOT private matters for women, IMHO. And most definitely, they are NOT an "eww thing"; if this was the case, only men would be posting on the "Infidelity" forum, wouldn't you say?

 

So you ask what betrays a lack of respect for women in the comments you made?

 

1. Your essentialization of gender stereotypes -- i.e. men must be dominant and women must be submissive

2. Your comment that non-virginal females are "immodest" women with "brazen looks in their eyes" who cannot be submissive to their respective spouse (and ultimately committing the cardinal sin of emasculating him)

3. Your comment that a man can only be a "true man" if he takes "charge of a relationship."

4. Your comment about "Ukrainian women" and "mail order brides" -- who, according to you, are women who know "their place."

5. Your comment about the impossibility of finding "real women in North America."

6. Your assumption that a non-virginal woman is cheater who has "been around"

7. Finally, your dismissive attitude about how for women, this whole issue is a "eww" topic.

[Luke Skywalker]

.

 

People make mistakes. You "gift" your virgnity to your husband, and the two of you end up unhappy together later on in the relationship. So you get a divorce. Does that mean that you will be "less" of a wife to your next partner?

 

Divorce doesn't exist in my mind. Why? Because in a marriage cerimony it's said "what God has put together let no man divide".

 

If a marriage ends in divorce, then God did not put together these people and it was destined to fail, how can God put together something and it falls apart, whatever God does is perfect and enduring.