Retroactive Infidelity.

[Luke Skywalker]

Judge not, that ye be not judged.

 

Goes both ways. Is virginity the most important conceivable gift that a man or a woman can contribute to each other. Then there has to be accountability for squandering the greatest gift on the wrong person.

[Luke Skywalker]

I wouldn't see virginity as my most important gift - seems a bit odd, to me. I would agree that there other more important gifts: integrity, commitment, loyalty, fidelity, passion, love, etc. Nor would I see a virginal man as preserving his most important gift for me - there are other things I would prefer (same qualities as above).

 

You dont see that all as being proved by staying chaste? Aren't all these noble qualities all entrenched in the state of virginity.

 

Integrity - you didn't lose it to anyone but the one who commits for a lifetime.

 

Commitment - the person who waited is committed to waiting for you and had you in mind in their distant past.

 

Loyalty - he is loyal to ensure he saved his virginity for you and not another person.

 

Fidelity - he didn't go with anyone else before meeting you.

 

Passion - he is passionate about keeping his virginity and waiting.

 

Love - he's reserved his greatest possible gift for you, and thus waited for you only to lose his virginity, thus he loves you.

 

Dont you see how all these concepts are entrenched in virginity?

[Ellie2006]

But if you already lost your virginity, you've already failed your future spouce.

 

Well, this is all based on YOUR perceptions about virginity and (retroactive in)fidelity, does it not?

 

If someone does not place the emphasis on the significance of virginity as you do, would this person really see his/her experienced partner as having "failed" him or her?

 

Perhaps it might be advisable NOT to make sweeping generalizations; in other words, rather than condemn people w/ experience as retroactive cheaters, why not simply say *you* would consider your future (experienced) spouse as a retroactive cheater? If this is your belief, who's to say you have the right to think so or not? But by the same token, it is not right to apply wholesale your notions of virginity to the rest of the population.

 

Just my two cents.

[Luke Skywalker]

So are you saying here that you can either be a "true man" (with more experience), or a virgin man who can give his partner the "gift of virginity"? So a virgin man, by this logic, can never be a "true man" then?

 

Unless he is with a submissive virgin woman.

 

Time to go to the Ukraine, or some country and look for a mail order bride to come to Canada, since I'm not sure what I'll find here as everyone seems messed up, even in the church.

 

That's why men go to these countries to meet women who know their place.

[Luke Skywalker]

Well, this is all based on YOUR perceptions about virginity and (retroactive in)fidelity, does it not?

 

If someone does not place the emphasis on the significance of virginity as you do, would this person really see his/her experienced partner as having "failed" him or her?

 

Perhaps it might be advisable NOT to make sweeping generalizations; in other words, rather than condemn people w/ experience as retroactive cheaters, why not simply say *you* would consider your future (experienced) spouse as a retroactive cheater? If this is your belief, who's to say you have the right to think so or not? But by the same token, it is not right to apply wholesale your notions of virginity to the rest of the population.

 

Just my two cents.

 

I'm not applying any wholesale notions here. I'm just speaking my mind.

[Ellie2006]

If a man is a virgin and has no sexual experience, what gives him the upperhand even if his spouse is a virgin woman?

 

If experience is a huge component of masculinity, a virgin man is devoid of this factor and hence cannot be a "true man," according to your logic.

 

Also, if a virgin man finds himself with a dominant virgin woman, what happens then?

[Ellie2006]

Unless he is with a submissive virgin woman.

 

Time to go to the Ukraine, or some country and look for a mail order bride to come to Canada, since I'm not sure what I'll find here as everyone seems messed up, even in the church.

 

That's why men go to these countries to meet women who know their place.

 

I have no problem w/ you speaking your mind.

But I think it's extremely disrespectful of you to make these kind of comments about "mail order brides" and "women who know their place."

 

This is rather inconsistent if your whole thread was about a man remaining a virgin out of respect to his future spouse and to give her the precious gift of his virginity.

[Luke Skywalker]

If a man is a virgin and has no sexual experience, what gives him the upperhand even if his spouse is a virgin woman?

 

It's not about upperhand, it's about proper balance.

 

If experience is a huge component of masculinity, a virgin man is devoid of this factor and hence cannot be a "true man," according to your logic.

 

I didn't say experience is a huge component of masculinity. But I'm saying, if a woman has more experience than a guy, then how would a guy feel like a man in that type of dynamic.

[Ellie2006]

I didn't say experience is a huge component of masculinity. But I'm saying, if a woman has more experience than a guy, then how would a guy feel like a man in that type of dynamic.

 

Fine, if you're saying that experience is not a characteristic of masculinity then why would a guy NOT be able to feel like a man in a situation where a woman has more experience? What would make him feel like less of a man with a woman w/ more experience?

[Luke Skywalker]

I have no problem w/ you speaking your mind.

But I think it's extremely disrespectful of you to make these kind of comments about "mail order brides" and "women who know their place."

 

This is rather inconsistent if your whole thread was about a man remaining a virgin out of respect to his future spouse and to give her the precious gift of his virginity.

 

I dont think so. It's just hard to impossible to find a real woman these days in North America, that's all. Most women here are bright (already slept with a few or allot of men), independent, and are quite unsuitable prospects for a traditional marriage dynamic, where a man was a man, and a woman was a woman instead of this big mess.

[Juliana]

"Goes both ways. Is virginity the most important conceivable gift that a man or a woman can contribute to each other. Then there has to be accountability for squandering the greatest gift on the wrong person."

 

You will twist even Christ's words to justify judging someone?

 

Fortunately, you have no right. We are to love God with all our hearts and minds and souls; our virginity is not saved for a future spouse, but to honour God. That you would so casually assume that you deserve what is rightfully Gods is quite simply, disgusting.

[Luke Skywalker]

Fine, if you're saying that experience is not a characteristic of masculinity then why would a guy NOT be able to feel like a man in a situation where a woman has more experience? What would make him feel like less of a man with a woman w/ more experience?

 

It's more of a relative or comparative concept than an absolute one.

 

Thus I refer to an interaction between two people with different sexual experience, where one of them is a virgin, and the other is a non-virgin, verses, one where both of them are virgins. Especaially if the guy is a virgin and the woman is a non-virgin, I do not see a smooth balanced interaction and would be surprised to hear of any successful relationships where both partners are unequal in sexual experience. A non-virgin woman can not be truly submissive to her husband if she has already been around.

 

Thus, if a guy went to marry a non-virgin, then his one best experience isn't shared with his wife, as she already had it with someone else before him.

[Ellie2006]

I dont think so. It's just hard to impossible to find a real woman these days in North America, that's all. Most women here are bright (already slept with a few or allot of men), independent, and are quite unsuitable prospects for a traditional marriage dynamic, where a man was a man, and a woman was a woman instead of this big mess.

 

Then are you saying that women in Ukraine and other parts of the world where men go to get their mail order brides are NOT bright, NOT independent, and suitable for a traditional marriage (i.e. patriarchal set up)? Geez, maybe you should actually visit some of these countries before you make these kind of fallacious presumptions.

[Honey Pumpkin]

I dont think so. It's just hard to impossible to find a real woman these days in North America, that's all. Most women here are bright (already slept with a few or allot of men), independent, and are quite unsuitable prospects for a traditional marriage dynamic, where a man was a man, and a woman was a woman instead of this big mess.

 

I am sure there are women where you live who long for that kind of marriage. I do know ONE woman here (Scotland) who longs for a relationship like that. That's it, though. It's a pity, you seem to want to be nostalgic for a different era.

 

I have a thought, that by setting yourself up for a relationship like this as 'desirable', you are actually deliberately self-sabotaging your chances of meeting someone to have a fulfilling relationship with. It just seems like perhaps you don't want a relationship at all, by putting SO many brakes on it. Your chances of finding a woman like you describe? Remote. You want someone bright, intelligent, good-looking, etc etc, AND to be a virgin, and submissive? It's so specific, that even if she did exist, lived in your area, what are the chances she would want YOU?

 

I just think you are being so specific that you are deliberately making sure you don't meet anyone, and thereforeeee don't ever have to enter the choppy, scary waters or a real relationship with a real woman. What do you think?

[Luke Skywalker]

"Goes both ways. Is virginity the most important conceivable gift that a man or a woman can contribute to each other. Then there has to be accountability for squandering the greatest gift on the wrong person."

 

You will twist even Christ's words to justify judging someone?

 

Fortunately, you have no right. We are to love God with all our hearts and minds and souls; our virginity is not saved for a future spouse, but to honour God. That you would so casually assume that you deserve what is rightfully Gods is quite simply, disgusting.

 

No, I'm not twisting Christ's words, because I like being judged myself so I have the right to judge others.

[Ellie2006]

A non-virgin woman can not be truly submissive to her husband if she has already been around.

 

I still cannot see what submissiveness has to do with virginity.

If you are a virgin, that automatically makes you submissive?

 

So in North America, which you have identified as the locus of all this mess re: gender hierarchy, then the moment you have sex, you are magically transformed from a submissive character to a dominant one?

 

This is illogical, IMHO.

 

Also, after a virgin man finds a virgin woman, how would this ex-virgin man keep his ex-virgin spouse "submissive"? If she suddenly becomes dominant and aggressive, how can this ex-virgin man continue to feel "like a true man" in relation to his spouse?

[Ellie2006]

Also, what you assume about these "mail order brides" and/or about women from beyond North America are accurate, then *everyone* with a mail order bride should be in a happy marriage and there would be no divorce outside of North America bc in these cases, a man is made to feel like a man by a woman who knows her place, right?

[yeawutever]

The harder you try looking for a woman like you are describing, the lesser your chance will be in forming a relationship and you'll be missing it out, you can go for years and years into it and not find it. It's not your partner's past you're into, but commitment, loyal and integrity. If everyone was into the traditional concept of "Waiting till marriage", then there would NOT be a world at all. Yes some people are described as adament virgins (according to a sex book) who want to wait till marriage, ok that's their idea.Everyone shares different believes, just as some people think there's a god, I don't believe in it. Nor do I believe that virginity is to honor god, it's your choice you make once you have already decided when it's the right moment. When I gave it to my experienced b/f, I wans't doing it for him, but b/c I simply wanted to, I felt like it. So according to you, then you would condemn me for giving it to the worng person just b/c he had experience before. It's not about the past, it's about the present two people who are in love share with each other.

[Luke Skywalker]

I have a thought, that by setting yourself up for a relationship like this as 'desirable', you are actually deliberately self-sabotaging your chances of meeting someone to have a fulfilling relationship with. It just seems like perhaps you don't want a relationship at all, by putting SO many brakes on it. Your chances of finding a woman like you describe? Remote. You want someone bright, intelligent, good-looking, etc etc, AND to be a virgin, and submissive? It's so specific, that even if she did exist, lived in your area, what are the chances she would want YOU?

 

Well, if we were to look at luck and chance, then I concede to your point. That's why a certain element of faith has to come in.

 

In a sense, I have to be fair, these rigid ideas come from my faith, then I have to look at my faith for the solutions - that I have to look to God for the right woman and trust Him for it as it's highly unlikely, or even impossible. I'll find a suitable match with my own efforts alone. However, since God is the business of impossible scenerios, then there can be no problem.

 

I just think you are being so specific that you are deliberately making sure you don't meet anyone, and thereforeeee don't ever have to enter the choppy, scary waters or a real relationship with a real woman. What do you think?

 

Why waste time seeking and being the wrong woman, when you can spend that same time in prayer trying to seek the right one.

[Honey Pumpkin]

Maybe you should pray for the right woman to come along, no matter what her past/attitudes, and trust in God to send you the right person? Rather than having a custom-made set of rules and lists. Just a thought. What if you are overlooking lots of nice women because you want a submissive, smart, good-looking virgin? (It's the submissive part that bothers me).

 

Also, don't mean to be negative, but most mail order brides (horrible HORRIBLE term, don't know what else to say) are not going to be virgins. You might get submissive, but not the virginity. And isn't it against your religion to effectively purchase another human being? Ach, I don't know, I wish you luck. I just feel you might be setting yourself up for a lot of unhappiness and loneliness. Tolerance and non-judgemental are wonderful qualities in my opinion, so trying not to judge your choices; but equally you might want to try being less judgemental yourself? Just a thought.

[Mr. Brightside]

The whole concept of "virginity" in this thread is obsurd and is a man-made fallacy. I could put the same weight on my first words as a human being. Damn, I forgot to give the gift of my first words to my parents and said them to a complete stranger. I am a worthless human. What about women who are raped or people who unwillingly give up their so called "virginity?" The only reason the virginity term is good is that it keeps people from having sex too early and too often for pregnancy and STD reasons. Otherwise it should remain in the ancient past, much like other concepts only a couple of pages past the "virginity" concept -- such as stoning people to death and giving up first born children for sacrifice.

 

Personally, I have had more infidelity problems with women who viewed their virginity in a HIGHER regard. Don't ask me why, maybe they were depressed to have lost it so early and since fidelity wasn't as important, they strayed.

 

You are probably correct in that you are going to be hard pressed to find these type of women nowadays. Instead of looking in other countries and mail order deals, I would invest my time in inventing a time machine to travel back 1,000 years or so when the world's women were more naive.

 

So do I think you can retroactively cheat? No (given other great posts in this thread already). Do I think giving up the concept of virginity makes people want to cheat more? Absolutely not. I think they would focus more on what really matters: Long term love and becoming one with themselves, their partners and whatever God they may pray to.

 

At any rate, I have no problems with people keeping/giving/throwing/burning their "virginity," as long as they don't use it as a social weapon to bring down other races/religions/sexes in their righteous religiosity.

[sophie274]

I think you are Christian, correct?

 

I really don't think the idea that a woman must be entirely submissive to her husband is coming from your faith, but from your insecurity in dealing with women and from your lack of dating/relationship experience. You seem really caught up in the idea that dating is a game, that someone must have the upper-hand ... and that you must find someone as inexperienced as your only way to win this game.

 

It's not about winning. I think most people on this board accept partners who are not virgins because they view dating as a learning experience, and a relationship as something in which they can learn and be taught and grow, rather than a game with a winner and a loser.

 

I think you will have trouble finding a woman who fits your bill, because a lot of virgin women don't equate their virginity with a desire for submission, and your attitude towards non-virgin women (which seems really disdainful) seems to betray a lack of respect for women in general.

[Juliana]

"There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: Who art thou that judgest another?" James 4:12

 

You are not God. Whether or not you enjoy being judged is neither here nor there; it is not for you to judge. You judge according to the flesh, because you are not born again of the Spirit. If you were born of the Spirit, you would judge according to the Spirit, and not be blinded by the flesh. You are worldly.

 

You speak of judgment as if it were nothing. Christ forebear to judge; yet you assume you can. Jesus told us not to judge. It is not a matter of your feelings; you cannot judge another person and be Christian. For you to assume that a woman who is not a virgin cannot be pure and obedient to God is foolish, since purity and obedience are matters of the soul, not the flesh. Judge after the flesh and you will receive the reward all flesh receives.

 

But perhaps you are not Christian? In which case, I apologize for expecting you to know Christian teaching:

 

"Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you. For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: But the publicans and the harlots believed him, and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him." Matthew 21:31-32.

[kadvati79]

I'm with Mr Brightside on this one.

 

The problem I have with the statements about virginity and its value is that you are using link removed to justify its importance. If you want to discuss something on a religious basis, then fine, do that. But if you are going to discuss concepts in a general sense, outside of a single faith, then you need to be prepared to justify what you are saying.

 

I still have no idea why virginity is so important, beyond that fact that it is what you would describe as a "real woman".

 

Why are the origins of the value of virgnity? I would take a punt and say that the best situation for a child to be raised was with a mother, father, and an extended family to support them. When people had sex, they had children, there was no real contraception. thereforeeee, it was in the best interests of religion to push the notion of virgnity as being sacred since even before the christian thing really got going.

 

But just because we've done something for thousands of years, doesn't make it relevant today. What worked yesterday isn't necessarily the roadmap for today. Why is virgnity sacred to your "best" potential partner? What happens if you "give" your virgnity to "the one" and that person turns out to be a complete disaster? You have failed to give your virgnity! What if you are raped? What if you got drunk, and then got raped? What if you are a guy and have sex with a guy? Or a girl who has sex with a girl? What about masterbation? What about oral sex? Mutual masterbation? Anal Intercourse? Watching each other masterbate? Kissing? Petting? Massage?

 

Every decision around the notion of virgnity as a real concept involves drawing a line in the sand, which of course means an arbitrary decison must be made. I really dislike arbitrary decisions, so I prefer to adopt occam's razor and simple dispense with them in favour of taking the simplest explaination for things.

[AntiLove_SuperStar]

Virginity is so overrated.

 

In any case, how can you possibly know who/what is round the corner?

 

With all due respect, an utterly daft concept.