Why is dating so much like a game....

[arwen]

This assumption has broken more hearts than you can even imagine! Exclusivity is NOT implied until he has told you he can't see himself with anyone but you... Then you graciously accept (and probably in secret breathe a sigh of relief and happiness).

 

Don't assume exclusivity. Don't ask for exclusivity. Let him choose you. That maximises your chances of NOT ending up in the break-up or cheating forums.

 

I assume you do not mean to tell ME that I shouldn't assume this? Because if so, I think I did not make clear what I meant. I understand that in your dating - system it's normal to date more than one person, right? Well, I think that is the problem to begin with. I think that if I were to live over there, I'd find it really strange to try to connect with more than one man at the same time (because trying to connect and see what is there is the point of dating, right?-- breaking up is already a much higher risk there because 'date' implies 'potential for romance'), whereas for me, meeting someone may or may not lead to more and there are no expectations until it's clear there IS more. Just more going by the flow I guess.

 

In addition, everyone can end up in break up and cheating forums. Me included. Things can go wrong at any point in the relationship. I also find it strange why you should wait until the MAN says he wants to be exclusive. Does that mean he can sleep around as much as he wants until he says he just wants to see you? And you actually might not even KNOW he is seeing other women, until he says he wants to be exclusive? In that case I'd not sleep with anyone until exclusivity is agreed upon.

 

Ilse

[renaissancewoman101]

Me man...me choose. Woman no speak!

Silence!

 

 

Kind of like the Neanderthal Age, where the caveman goes out, chooses a lady, boinks her on the head and drags her to his cave.

 

In a way, dating is still like the Middle Ages, there is courtship, where it is expected that the woman waits for the man to act, to make the overtures, to choose her out of the crowd. The man makes the moves, a woman can make a move but that is frowned upon. The man chooses. We are conditioned to think that way, to think if we are "chosen" by the man, that that is the best thing since ice cream.

 

I see that with a lot of people. One thing I am trying to keep in perspective, is really DO I WANT TO BE WITH HIM. I know I need to also look at this dating as an "observation" of him and whether he is the RIGHT one for me.

 

AND take it one day at a time, and enjoy the ride. Perspective is all I need. It's hard because part of me very much wants a relationship with someone right now. IT would be the crowning glory of all the changes I have done in my life in the last few months.

[Jayar]

Jayar, why do you think the man must be the one to ask to be exclusive?

 

In fact, why do you think there even must be actual words said to confirm exclusivity? If someone is spending regular time with you, telling you they care about you, are calling when they say they will, and appear to be dating no one else...or even eventually tell you they love you...why must there be a "talk" saying you are exclusive?

 

Because many, MANY times a guy is seeing a girl and appearing to be into her, and even saying he loves her... While he is still pursuing other women. And then when she gets shocked, the poor guy thinks "Well jee! We didn't even say we were exclusive!"

 

I believe that the man is the pursuer. And if he isn't, then he's not into you. And you save yourself a lot of heartache (I believe) if you invest your emotions and time into a man who picks you. Because if he picks you, you have LESS of a chance ending up in the relationship conflict forum talking about how he doesn't value you, or the infidelity forum talking about how he's cheating on you.

 

This is not to say that a guy who pursues a woman will NEVER hurt her or cheat on her or leave her... He's just WAY less likely to take for granted something HE decided he wanted and HE worked hard to get. That said, there are many women who "took the initiative" sitting in relationships where now, a few years down the road, they don't feel they are getting what they deserve, don't feel valued, and feel very insecure. Their partner is probably becoming uninterested (after all, he didn't pick her) and maybe is even contemplating leaving the relationship... Perhaps it is showing that he's only with her out of habit. Maybe he's picked up a new porn addiction or is spending time out at the strip joint. Maybe he's not calling as much as he used to, or spending considerable time with "female friends" that have mysteriously come out of the woodwork. Maybe he's just coming home later and later each night, not thanking her for making his dinner, or picking at her for her appearance. If that's what someone wants, then so be it! But you are LESS likely to end up in this sort of situation with a man who picks you and works for you above anyone else he could have at that moment.

 

I believe the man should ask for exclusivity so that the woman knows he has chosen to be faithful to her. It really isn't about giving HIM the upper hand... It only seems that way! By letting HIM pursue YOU, you are 100% having the upper hand. Why? Because then you know every step he's taking is genuine and unforced. And if he doesn't take the steps you feel he should be (i.e. exclusivity/marriage) then guess what? You have the upper hand in knowing he's not into you, and you can move on! Your heart will likely still be more or less intact because you didn't invest emotion and time into a dead-end road, and there's nothing more "upper hand" than that, IMO.

[Day_Walker]

The game is played because that is what people respond to. It would be simple if we could be honest with eachother but that leaves nothing to the imagination and does not create a want to hang out with that person or even missing being around them. Instead we are just offered them on a plate without having to do any work for it. Another reason games come into play is that people are always interested in other people, even if they are talking to another person. The game brings them over to your side instead of offering them something that is stimulating.

Playing the game is not hard, it is different because some people transpose their feelings on the other person and expect that person to be interested in them right away or after an insignificant amount of time.

[Honey Pumpkin]

We don't have this dating then exclusive thing here in the UK, I know exactly what Ilse means! It's a big divide between Europe and the US, and I've found it really hard to get my head around. Not knocking it, but you don't date multiple people here, and that's okay. You hang out, you go out , you see what's happening, you can be 'seeing' someone. But if I dated someone, and found out he was seeing someone else, I would be furious. And I wouldn't be seen as weird, I don't think.

 

It's just different here - there's not such a high concept of 'dating'. I think your way is great, but we don't have it here, that it's acceptable to go out with loads of people, and it being all right till you're 'exclusive'.

[Jayar]

Me man...me choose. Woman no speak!

Silence!

 

Well, we still have to LET you choose us. It really isn't about giving men the upper hand, sorry! Men have the upper hand when the woman pursues them and invests more in them than he does...

[Jayar]

I assume you do not mean to tell ME that I shouldn't assume this?

 

There are DEFINITE cultural differences in America. My personal opinion is that overly forward girls with particularly low standards about how they will accept to be treated, has spoiled men in North America, for the most part.

 

That's not to say there are no genuine ones. There are probably LOTS! But you certainly cannot assume exclusivity until he has demonstrated he seeks exclusivity (and that doesn't mean he's just slept with you...) in North America. I think probably in North America MANY women sleep with men WAY sooner than in other cultures... In a way it has set men up to expect such prior to becoming exclusive. Didn't the "3 Date" rule originate here?

 

That said, we are all in a position to make our own decisions. I personally expect exclusivity before sleeping with someone. I may lose out on a lot of guys in the process, but I don't need a lot of guys. I just need one.

[bighair]

Hi, these games have been invented by cultures.

 

My parents' marriage was arranged. Their parents told them to marry each other because they believed they were well suited for each other based on their family backgrounds, educations, and their horoscopes. They met one time, were engaged the day they met, married 4 months later and have been together for 39 years.

 

They did not date each other. They were not permitted to spend time alone together prior to marriage. I have to say that they have a good marriage, they share common interests, and are completely devoted to one another.

 

My cousin, who is 29 years old, got married the same way about 1 year ago. He and his wife are very happy together...yes, time will tell.

 

Of course, this is not the way I want to select a husband. But, it has worked many, many people. There were no games, no nonsense, no dating.

[itsallgrand]

This is funny. As if there is any such thing as assuring security and a loyal partner !

 

Jayar, you could still end up with a dud. Such is life.

 

I would find that whole process tedious and boring, but that is just me. Wait for a guy to choose? When I could be exclusively choosing 6 men myself? (joking)

[Jayar]

We don't have this dating then exclusive thing here in the UK, I know exactly what Ilse means! It's a big divide between Europe and the US, and I've found it really hard to get my head around. Not knocking it, but you don't date multiple people here, and that's okay. You hang out, you go out , you see what's happening, you can be 'seeing' someone. But if I dated someone, and found out he was seeing someone else, I would be furious. And I wouldn't be seen as weird, I don't think.

 

It's just different here - there's not such a high concept of 'dating'. I think your way is great, but we don't have it here, that it's acceptable to go out with loads of people, and it being all right till you're 'exclusive'.

 

I think you sort of do have a similar thing... Our "dating" is your "seeing each other" and our "exclusive" is your "dating". You can definitely be casually seeing several people, going for drinks, having a good time. The fact that SOME WOMEN make the dating period very physical? Well that's their choice. It's probably spoiled a lot of men and conditioned them to expect such things, but there are still many women who DON'T allow that sort of behaviour, and that's okay too.

 

I personally date much like you do in the UK... Friends and fun, then maybe it would get taken to the next physical level (holding hands, kissing) but beyond that, not a chance until we're exclusive (or "dating" as you might call it)... There ARE guys who will understand and respect that and, if they like you, they won't let your values and boundaries stand in the way of winning your heart. And that applies no matter what continent you're on.

[Jayar]

This is funny. As if there is any such thing as assuring security and a loyal partner !

 

Jayar, you could still end up with a dud. Such is life.

 

I would find that whole process tedious and boring, but that is just me. Wait for a guy to choose? When I could be exclusively choosing 6 men myself? (joking)

 

To each their own... Probably you'd go well with the types of guys on this forum who say men doing the pursuing is outdated, whereas I wouldn't even consider them! Though personally I believe that when the right one comes along, they WILL pursue her. But that's another can of worms...

 

We all like different things and like behaving in different ways. We all have deal makers and deal breakers. That's why there are so many different personality types. There are people for each of us, and you can't please everyone.

[Honey Pumpkin]

I just think the word 'dating' makes it sound too serious, too laden with expectations. I'm meeting this guy for a drink tonight, so I suppose it is a 'date', but to me, it's just meeting someone for a drink, lol! If I called it a date I would be freaked out and nervous, but going for a drink, well that's just sociable, isn't it?? lol

 

I don't think we are less physical here, I just think that...I don't know, I think you have different rules. And I hate 'rules', because then I'm not behaving like me, I'm behaving like it works for someoe else. And what may work for someone who's 21 and gorgeous and optimistic and at university with loads of choices, well that's not the same as what will work for someone who's older and meets less people. I don't know, it's interesting though!

[renaissancewoman101]

The "dating" game is so complicated. Personally, I like the European way of dating because they stick with one person and sees if it works out. Here, you have no idea whether the guy is seeing other women, sleeping with other women, feeding other women the same lines, as they date you. And exclusivity doesnt always mean it will work out either. People break up, relationships end, etc.

 

Maybe it's the best to just buckle up and enjoy the ride and see where it goes.

 

Now just have to contain my emotions and my feelings. That's hard.

[Dako]

HP,

 

I much prefer and believe in what you describe.

Dating has always seemed a bit ridiculous to me, and the rules and strategies seem tailor-made for someone I don't wanna know.

[Jayar]

Daft post, nevermind...

[arwen]

Ah, HoneyPumpkin you know exactly what I mean. Jayar, the thing is that at least in Dutch we don't even have a word for dating. Unless we use the English word and it does not mean the same. Also 'seeing each other' for me can mean just seeing each other as friends (again, NO expectations). Let me illustrate how I met some of my bf's (no those are not a lot )

 

My first bf: met him at a party of a mutual friend. The party ended, we kept talking in a pub, realizing after what seemed an hour that it was already morning. Were already feeling a lot of chemistry. Kissed at dawn in an empty city. He gives me his number. I go home, sleep, call him, we start meeting more often, and it is a relationship. We lasted for 4 years.

 

Fast forward with some longer periods of being single (which is great because, unless you accidentally meet someone the way I did with the first bf, there is no such thing as forcing yourself to set up dates or something).

 

I met another bf on a holiday. We clicked, talked forever, kissed, I went back to Holland, which was his next stop of his vacation (he was from Italy), he came over to my place leaving his friends in another city, spent the week with me, that was the beginning of a difficult but overall very very happy and blissful LDR. We didn't last long, but that was due to the distance and us both being so unhappy in that.

 

Current bf: was my housemate for two years. Very shy but attractive guy. Got to know each other better and better since september last year. I went to a concert, asked him to join, had a great time. We were both working so many hours, so a month later we thought we should have dinner together to relax a bit in the weekend. Again, had the greatest time ever. Still, these were no 'dates' in the romantic sense. We were just two people spending time somewhere nice. We got together when he confessed his feelings for me, which he had since the first day he moved in. I had felt the spark before but you know, the housemate thing, etc. We are now 9 months together and there really never was some 'game' or 'waiting for him to call'. We are just both feeling we should really be together, and are now planning a future together (I moved to the other side of country like a month after we started a relationship-- for my job), talking about how we'd decorate our house, the cats we will take, etc. He is the best thing ever happened to me.

 

I think the only way the game playing can be 'changed' in the way dating takes place, is if you no longer accept it. Yes, that may put you at risk for rejection, but aren't you after all looking for a man that does not play those games? Maybe I just don't fully understand, my apologies if so!

 

Ilse

[shellshocked]

The "dating" game is so complicated. Personally, I like the European way of dating because they stick with one person and sees if it works out. Here, you have no idea whether the guy is seeing other women, sleeping with other women, feeding other women the same lines, as they date you. And exclusivity doesnt always mean it will work out either. People break up, relationships end, etc.

 

I don't think this is gender exclusive one way or the other...

 

I'm sure guys could jump in here and say the same thing...

How would they have any idea if the woman they are dating is seeing other guys, sleeping with other guys, etc...?

And also guys that believe it's the WOMEN that do the choosing....

 

I've known:

1) Women that have gotten burned by men.

2) Men that have gotten burned by women.

3) Women that have gotten burned by women.

4) Men that have gotten burned by men.

[Scout]

We all like different things and like behaving in different ways. We all have deal makers and deal breakers. That's why there are so many different personality types. There are people for each of us, and you can't please everyone.

 

That's actually the very reason why I don't believe in believing, setting, or following any general rules when it comes to dating. Because we're all different, have all had different experiences, and we can't subscribe to a mentality that one way of approaching things is an "all purpose" strategy that will always have the same effect.

 

Case in point, if I waited for every man I was ever interested in to make the first move, I would have missed out on some pretty cool boyfriends.

 

However, I do agree with you that someone should definitely show interest in you at an early point on. It makes no sense to chase a fantasy. But I think this is a two-way street. To be honest, I would never want a guy who only became interested in a woman if she appeared hard to get and unattainable. Because that has nothing to do with liking her for who she is as an individual person. That just means this guy likes what it appears he can't have. And that doesn't seem to be an emotionally mature characteristic.

 

I can't remember which male movie star said this once...but I do recall being struck by his statement when an interviewer asked him what kind of girls he liked. His reply was, "Well, first of all, I like a girl who likes me."

 

And one more thing...so many women believe men should do all the pursuing. So many believe this, in fact, that it's not necessarily what's going to make you stand out with a guy if three other women are doing the same thing!

[Batya33]

It's sad that it always HAS to be the guy who asks you and sets the pace of the relationship/dating. Why are us women always relegated to second place when it comes to the ancient art of dating? I like this guy and want it to work out. All this "courtship" while fun and exhilarting, is also taxing on the mind and the soul. Sometimes, I wish I could just jump the dating thing and establish a relationship. That would give me a sense of stability and less uncertainty. I HATE uncertainty, because it creates the stage for failure to occur.

 

With all due respect I disagree with your views. First, the "just be yourself" often doesn't work very well because, let's face it, when you (I mean you, generally) really like someone you cannot be yourself- you get nervous, insecure, react in odd ways to his attention or lack thereof (or her attention or lack thereof). It helps to have an outsider's perspective whether that is a trusted friend, your mother, or a psychologist you trust.

 

I agree that the guy sets the pace of the early stages of the dating or the relationship but the woman is not in "second place" she just has a different role at that stage. She has to make sure she is expressing the enthusiasm and appreciation she feels, seeing how she can make his life easier by being a good listener, offering input at the appropriate time and giving him plenty of space so that he can integrate her into his life - and be integrated into hers - at an appropriate pace. It also works best if the attitude is one of positive and cautious optimism rather than cynicsm or meaningless comparison to other men/other relationships.

 

Is it fair? Reasonable minds can differ as to whether it's fair. It's typically felt comfortable for me other than the times I have spent waiting for those darn phone calls, IMs or e-mails. That was a pain! Sarah Mclachaln music got me through.

 

Also, unless you are determined to do something to change the way it seems to work now it likely is a waste of time to stress over it - if what you really want is a relationship. More power to those who endeavor to make changes if it seems unfair, it's just not something I'm all that interested in.

 

Good luck!

[Scout]

I agree that the guy sets the pace of the early stages of the dating or the relationship but the woman is not in "second place" she just has a different role at that stage. She has to make sure she is expressing the enthusiasm and appreciation she feels, seeing how she can make his life easier by being a good listener, offering input at the appropriate time and giving him plenty of space so that he can integrate her into his life - and be integrated into hers - at an appropriate pace.

 

I only disagree with the first part of this paragraph, simply because I have initiated the interest in the past, and it worked for me. The rest...beautifully said, Batya. What you're saying here is what I strongly believe. It's not just about the timetable we want that should be considered, because then it's all about us. That's a selfish way of approaching a relationship. We have to remember this other person had a life before us, continues to have a life after they've met us, and this life comes with it's own unique experiences and schedule. Just because we want things to happen fast, doesn't mean it should.

 

It's not just the destination. In fact, some would say the journey is more important. At any rate, how you travel the journey certainly will predict the outcome.

[rocio]

I agree that the guy sets the pace of the early stages of the dating or the relationship but the woman is not in "second place" she just has a different role at that stage.

Good luck!

 

Who made this rule and forgot to tell me about it?

 

Guys should chase, and girls should force them to chase. It should totally be set by the girl - from beginning to end.

[shikashika]

I started a post once about 'dating'... its different in different places. dating is a very American thing...

 

If I went out with a guy once on a 'date' I would assume he is not seeing anyone else. I have never had the 'now we are exclusive talk' with any of my boyfriends.

 

if i went out with a guy a couple of times, and found out that he was seeing someone else or 'dating' someone else he'd be out of my life in a heartbeat.

 

to me that is just cheating and nothing else

[Batya33]

I only disagree with the first part of this paragraph, simply because I have initiated the interest in the past, and it worked for me.

 

 

as I've posted before, I think things can proceed successfully to a long term happy relationship if the woman asks the man out for the first date. I know of no happy long term relationships where the woman did most of the asking, planning and initiating in the first month or so of dating -prior to the two people being an established couple. Same where the woman put up with wishy washy behavior on the man's part from the beginning.

 

I do not believe in playing games - I do believe that since we all can get over-eager and excited about a new person we need to make sure we respect the other person's limits and boundaries and give space even when it is not expressly asked for but when it seems from his/her actions that it is needed.

 

For example, if a man is wishy washy with me about wanting a second or third (or fourth) date - he doesn't step up to the plate to make/confirm definite plans, he seems to have too many excuses about why the plan is delayed (this of course just takes judgment - he very well could be busy or sick or overwhelmed with other stuff), etc, I give space.

 

So, if he dilly dallies, I am not as available when he calls, I will call back promptly if he is calling to make/confirm a definite plan (or if he has a specific question he wants answered) but otherwise if he is calling just to shoot the breeze I may not call him right back- because I am too busy to shoot the breeze with someone who is too busy to make a definite plan with me.

 

What I have found is - there are few shades of gray. Every single time (and I have dated many men and have had several long term relationships) a man is sincerely interested in me he doesn't play games or seem ambivalent in the least (same with the women I know). Rather, he calls when he says he will, goes out of his way to make plans as soon as possible and confirms as to time and place to make sure I set aside the time, and doesn't leave me wondering for any significant amount of time about his intentions.

 

With those men who were somewhat interested but not "that" into me - it was pretty obvious. They would be unreliable in their calling, make tentative plans or cancel plans, or ask me out at the last minute even after calling me every night that week. Some women settle for that sort of afterthought/second best role. It's not for me - it gives me a tummy ache. Unfortunately, I've seen that scenario happen often when a woman has s_x with a man early on (never happened to me as I am not interested in casual s_x).

 

Finally, I read someone's post on another thread where she said she believed that there either need to be strong sparks right from the beginning and that people who are wishy washy can't later "grow to like" the other person. I found that observation an interesting insight on wishy washy behavior. However, I believe that even if there are smaller sparks in the beginning, those sparks can increase. So, a man who is sincerely interested in a woman for the long term still will want to make the best impression - act reliably, ask her out on dates, be respectful, a gentleman, friendly - all of that - even if the sparks aren't out of control because he is willing to invest a few dates or more to see if one develops. He may not be or act as "smitten" but he will still want to make that great impression as an "investment."

 

I wouldn't excuse wishy washy behavior as "well he's not that into me now but maybe if I stick around he will become into me." Rather, I would assume that he wasn't that into me then AND he didn't think it was worth it to see if a stronger spark developed later on.

 

Just my thoughts.

[Bethany]

I read somewhere... "A woman wonders how the relationship is progressing whilst the man is still wondering if he wants to have a relationship with the woman at all".

 

I don't know if anyone else would agree with it but I think it's very telling and I find it keeps things in perspective.

[Batya33]

I read somewhere... "A woman wonders how the relationship is progressing whilst the man is still wondering if he wants to have a relationship with the woman at all".

 

I don't know if anyone else would agree with it but I think it's very telling and I find it keeps things in perspective.

 

That's interesting! Never worked that way for me - typically the man makes his intentions known in the first two months and usually less (and typically it is "I only want to date you, is that how you feel and do you see a future here?"). The times that the man hasn't brought it up within the first two months it usually has ended shortly after and usually ended by the man.