Choose between love and sexual chemistry?

[melrich]

Well that sounds like some reasonable progress.

 

I think your husband's issues are more about communication full stop. People who refuse to discuss issues they are having generally don't let them go, they just allow them to build up inside them. And whilst they may not realise it, those issues will manifest in some way.

 

Keep updating if it helps you or you need another perspective.

[Scout]

Certainly keep updating! I'm learning a great deal just from reading about your own experience. For one thing, I am currently in a relationship with a guy who, just like your husband, is truly a good, decent person. But he also tends to withhold a bit in the communication department. I mean, we can definitely talk comfortably with each other but I sense that he does keep to himself certain thoughts that he perceives as negative, rather than putting them out there. His logic is he doesn't want to hurt me, escalate a disagreement, etc. But, I'm trying to let him know it's "safe," so to speak, to open up to me if something is bothering him. And he's already done so since we had that talk, and sure enough, my first inclination was to say "Huh???" about an issue he perceived I was being condescending about. However, instead of immediately defending myself, I thanked him for telling me his thoughts and opening up. Then I told him he was wrong, lol.

 

Just kidding. But I did gently tell him my real motivation for what I said, and it seemed to have cleared things up.

[ramsickle1369]

Hi everyone... I have been listening and talking with just about everyone I know and some that I don't... and nothing has changed how I feel. I have agreed with my friend and my mother that I should invite the husband to therapy one more time... to go with me... I don't anticipate feeling any different about all that I'm going through, and I am fairly confident that the outcome will not change. But the idea that it will allow me the peace of mind that I really did try everything makes me think it's worth a shot.

 

Many don't know the entire situation, heck I am still figuring it out. But I have been doing all the things everyone's told me to and he and I simply do not connect on that intimate, emotionally sexual level. I guess I hope to go to therapy for us to really understand WHY it isn't working for me, and I suspect, him either. It's worth a shot to at least know what we did to ourselves and why we thought alls well was OK. I now know that it's not, and I want out and to be done as quickly as possible. I don't think at this time that it can possibly get better, largely because I've known this problem existed for several years. He's known for the same amount of time. It’s simply not fair for me to stay there giving him hope when I really don't want it any more, is it? I feel like my being there is horrible to him and I don't want to hurt him any more than I have to...I just can't do this any more...

 

Thanks again for all your input. I really appreciate it.

[TiredMan]

I don't know. People, in my situations, have "urges" like that but whether we choose to act on them is what separates adults and non-adults, IMO. People cheat for many reasons. One of these reasons is thinking "wow i'm completely turned on by this person" and they don't think about how it could fade as well. Or the sex is great but the rest is absolutely horrible. The most important thing to me in a relationship is the "connection". When a person is a teen or early 20's, I guess sex is way up there. I know it was for me. But as I grew older (30 now) that really changed. Sure, I get a zillion urges all the time but the connection is so strong, I wouldn't trade it in for 25 years of the best sex in the history of mankind. But that's me. I guess every individual needs to decide where their priorities lie.

[ramsickle1369]

I agree with you, TiredMan that the attraction is merely a passing feeling. That the connection you develop is the most important part. But what about when that connection fails to include the chemistry that makes two people lovers? What do you do when that is all that has never really been there? It's like he's my best friend, my roommate, my brother... I honestly can NOT see him as a sexual partner any longer. I haven't been able to for some time, for years. But I forged ahead thinking that in my late 20's, at the time it was normal for the "lover" feeling to fade after a couple years. I never realized it was dead in me. That I was merely performing a duty, not enjoying it for a second. Orgasms went out the window (not a problem I am used to). I literally felt dead inside. When I realized I COULD still feel that way I realized I was NOT feeling it for my husband. And I realized that God had finally given me the sign that I needed to know what I felt. It's hard to say that it's so clear now, because it is. But I know in the bottom of my heart that this isn't right for ME, right now... And it sucks that I AM married with obligations, but I can't continue to deny my own happiness...

[ramsickle1369]

Another update...

 

My husband finally sees that he was neglecting me all this time. He wants me to give him yet another chance. But I don't believe it will make a difference. I really feel it is too little too late. I do not currently WANT to be with him, at all. My question for you wise folks is this... Do I give him a chance knowing that I don't feel that for him? I don't want to get stuck thinking it's all going to be OK and just go back to the old ways. I somehow think that if I give it a shot, and then still feel the same, at least we really gave it our all, but I am really repulsed at the thought of physically trying. What do I do? I have another therapy appt. tomorrow. I will see if I can't address that feeling with her tomorrow. But I'd really like to hear some real world experiences, too.

 

TIA

[kadvati79]

Obviously there is something about this relationship you believe is worth salvaging. Thats a good start. But I think that you MUST want him back before you get back into it. At the very least, maybe some time and space away from each other will consolidate your feelings - and if the relationship is worth having - you will find you DO want him back.

 

That time and space will give him plenty to think about, and he might learn how to stand on his own two feet, and understand what effect neglecting you was having on him.

 

Thats my 2c

[ramsickle1369]

It is true that there is a wonderful person there and a good relationship. But honestly, every time someone says to try and "save" it, I get really angry and disgusted. I'm not sure why I feel that way. I feel bad for him, because it's hurting him. But I can't, and don't want to "be" with him, sexually. I don't want to be trapped again. I don't want to go back, at all. I don't know if that will change, I really don't think so. Guess I really need more time to know for sure... I just hate feeling this way and want to end it asap...

 

Confused...

[Derek]

I think you could give him a second chance, but this isn't about "saving" it anymore. It's about building something new, with new ground rules. You both gotta start from scratch, he's gotta start "dating" you again. Forget about the sex part for a while.

 

There you both are as individuals, and there is this other thing called the "relationship", that needs to be built up and attended to. It's a new thing, not the old thing. I expect you won't trust his efforts for a while, so he shouldn't expect to be able to just "push a button" (buy dinner or flowers) and your feelings to change. But I could bet that after enough time, your heart might soften, he might be more attentive to what's going on and trust will be rebuilt.

 

I think its wise to invest in those around you instead of running away to the next relationship hoping for something new. (And often falling back into the same patterns with the new person too) I believe the two of you can overcome the problems you are facing.

[Ash]

Derek, with all due respect, asking Ramsickle to forget all about the sex part for a while, when that's essentially what she's done for the better part of the last decade seems a little odd. That's what the whole crux of the issue is.

 

If you read some of the posts on this bulletin board, you'll see there is a huge number of threads having the same basic underlying cause of a sexual incompatibility. There are all types of people in the world, and it makes things really tough if you pair up a sexually highly driven person with one who has a low sex drive. Unfortunately, as far as I know, before getting married there is not a sexual compatibility quiz, and there almost should be because it is a huge factor.

 

True, love is very important. Many things are very important as is sex. The desire to procreate is what keeps the human race alive and to attempt to belittle that and convince ourselves that with our minds we can overcome what the instinct to survive in our distance past have bred into us seems wrong to me.

 

Granted, Ramsickle may wish to take sexual relations off the table for now if she does decide the best course of action is to start from scratch, but he has to realize that the eventual goal is that they do get that chemistry going. Her heart is already soft, that's why she's still with him and wants to give him whatever chances she can that she thinks are reasonable to give. I for one would never recommend somebody overhaul their character for the sake of another. Minor changes perhaps. Try to rebuild the love, sure. But they do have the love already. It's an extension of that love in a certain direction that is lacking. He may become more attentive, but will he get hit with that lightening bolt of passion that so many of us have the joy of experiencing just about every time we get into bed with our partners ever happen? Only Ramsickle can guess at that, only her husband can know for sure if it's there in him anywhere. Like I said, to start from scratch they both have to realize what the goal is. As anything in life, you can't get there if you're not aware of where it is you're trying to get.

 

I went back and reread some of this thread and I'd like to say that I think the first reply to the initial post is still right on. My opinion I realize. I essentially would advise the same thing. Have a real good think (both of them) about whether there is a way to make this work. They both now (in reading what has happened the last few days) realize where some of the issues lie. Can they be corrected? It would be wonderful if they could be. But if they can't, and a decision is made (hopefully mutual), then it's our chosen task here on eNotAlone to not only support Ramsickle and offer help and compassion, but also to do the same for her husband should he avail himself in the same way. Same as we do for all others regardless of whether others would judge them right or wrong.

 

I'm not trying to dissect anybodies advice. It's all very valuable and I would certainly hope that Ramsickle is taking it all in and considering it. I suspect likely she is. I hate to see people split up too, I'd prefer to have them stay together. I sometimes must ask myself though, is one person's unhappiness worth a couple staying together for? Shouldn't they both be happy? Can Ramsickle achieve true happiness with her husband unless there is a fundamental change in the way the relationship works? Again, not a question I can answer for the two of them.

 

If they are to start from scratch, back to the beginning, and there are no children to be confused by all this, is it truly wise to start from scratch together knowing it failed the first time? I realize it may be seen as giving each other a second chance, but I suspect in the decade that they've been together, there must have been more that one occasion where it could have been considered a second chance. There are so many tougher situations on this bulletin board where there are external and internal compelling reasons to make things work. We have heard a little bit about her husbands situation, but we haven't been conversing with him and we don't know what his feelings are on this. So yeah, it can be damned tough to let go sometimes, but you do have to understand exactly what it is you're fighting for, and if the two of them are striving for a different objective, then now is the time for them to get that straight so they'll understand whether they are in fact fighting to get to the same thing.

 

I wish both of them all the best. I hope they can think carefully about what they want to achieve, what they are willing to give up, and I hope that will let them make the next huge decision in their lives. And I also hope the rest of us can take something away from all of this and understand that there is so much more to a marriage than love and companionship. Those of you that can get it all together and make it work have done very well and the rest of us can take notes so we know more of what living with another person really means.

 

Again, if I've stepped on any toes I didn't mean to. Please PM me so we can talk and understand where each other are coming from.

 

And to Ramsickle and her husband, it's a really tough decision. Think carefully of your own happiness and of each others, and count on support from us here no matter what is decided.

[Derek]

You wrote that very well Ash.

 

Read my underlying assumptions which may explain what I'm thinking:

Divorce is a last resort.

People typically get married because the other person has some redeeming qualities they like. =)

I think one can learn to love better. I think guys often don't have the "skills" of romance and communication.

I think the sex in this case is a symptom of a problem not the problem itself.

She said she feels "disgusted" now when he tries to make love, I don't see the point of "more sex".

I think she might go for quality sex over quantity.

 

Both parties will have to compromise for each other's needs. The only person who can fulfill their sexual needs is each other (if they stay faithful to each other) So he may need to be more frequent/better, she may need to accept a little less than her ideal, but certainly she should be getting more attention than she's getting now.

 

I tend to value loyalty and commitment over personal happiness. No marriage will ever have constant personal happiness.

 

I think the best way out of trouble is through it.

 

I think a more compelling reason to consider divorce is if he was unwilling to even try to do better.

 

 

Perhaps that helps?

[ramsickle1369]

*************Sorry to do this to you all, but I guess I have A LOT to say. I am going to break it up to not freak out the servers**************

 

Thank you Derek and Ash. You both offer excellent insight that I DO take into consideration.

 

Perhaps I can enlighten the situation a bit more to help you understand. I wish it was clearer in my head so I can put it here. I hope that there's someone out there less comfortable with sharing their woes that can gain some help from all of this. I know it helps me.

 

The actual underlining issue is MUCH more than sex and lack of it. I don't know how to explain it, but I know in the bottom of my heart that I need to get out. I need to address ALL the issues I have, the sexual compatibility is surely something to consider, and when I met my husband, I have to admit, we waited all of two weeks after our first date before becoming active. And that was my doing... After that, he was already set into a routine... the blinds got closed, the roommate had to be gone, the doors shut, the clothes ripped off, then it was my turn. I used to laugh at him, it was SO structured. I guess I knew it then -- and loved him so it didn't matter. At least I thought I loved him completely. Within about 6 months, I was already practically living with him. I had moved back into my mom's house and was answering to them, supported by them. After two years of dating, we moved in together (straight from my mom's) and sudenly HE was supporting me. Sure, I contributed, but I made the least and only took responsibility for some of it. I was also only 22. At the time 22 seemed mature enough, but my mentality was not there.

 

There are feelings of extreme excitement when I think about living on my own. Those feelings have been there for at least 7 years. They're scary, sure, but they are there. And have been steadily growing for years. I think I already posted this, but I am a believer in signs. I have been asking God for the past 7 years if I made the right decision. I have been praying for a sign that would knock me on my butt and be clear. I have seen many many signs along the way, and always came up with an excuse.

 

See, before I met my husband, I was in an abusive relationship. When I began dating my husband, I literally felt like God sent me an angel to save me. And much of my commitment was to that, a gift from God. How could he want me to leave an angel? Why would he send him to me?

 

Now, I firmly believe that he was meant to save me from that relationship so I could find myself, which I did originally. Then I was consumed by his life. I moved to his town, adopted his friends as my own. I gave up my own friends (largely because we had outgrown each other from High School). I had no life of my own. We even worked together. I was completely consumed by his life and after a while, had no life of my own.

 

*************Continued****************

[ramsickle1369]

*************Continued*****************

 

In 1999, I was injured at my job and was on work comp. For the first time in our relationship I was not spending all day with him. I missed him greatly. He worked, I wasn’t, I was full of energy and he would come home tired. Eventually, I began going out without him… with his friends, one of whom was a guy. That friendship became flirtatious and I became confused. I knew I didn’t love that guy, I didn’t even used to like him! He was kind of a jerk! But the attention was wonderful. Eventually, I said too much after too many drinks and he thought I was in love with him. Now, mind you, NOTHING HAS EVER HAPPENED. I have NEVER been unfaithful to him. Nor do I plan to be.

 

But the seeds had been sewn. He was of course crushed, but never got angry or jealous (at least I never saw it). He was still buddies with his friend that was flirting with his wife! (How men do that will remain a mystery to me!) I felt as if he didn’t even care that I was flirting with another man—many times right in front of him.

 

At that time, it was the second chance. I wanted to move out, and was excited about the idea. But he made me feel so guilty that I stayed. I told him that if he didn’t “satisfy me then someone else will.” Now I don’t mean that in a simply sexual sense. I meant it in every sense. I needed that attention, the kisses, the affection, and yes, the sexual spontaneity. But it wasn’t just about sex then either. If it was, then I suppose I could just go have sex now.

 

That Was seven years ago. And I’ve made many mentions of it in those past seven years. The only thing I regret is not leaving or taking more serious action sooner. Maybe there was hope then, Maybe not.

 

I think I knew then, 7 years ago what God was trying to tell me. That I needed to be on my own. That I needed to be in the real world, to grow up and become an independent person… separate from the daughter or the husband. It is really an odd thing for me to say this, because I am such an independent person, but I have never really been independent. And I see this as an awakening. Something I’ve known for years and suppressed to keep my husband happy in his little world. I just can’t do that any more.

 

 

*************Continued*****************

[ramsickle1369]

*********Continued***************

 

Although I come from a long line of divorces and planned to NEVER get married or have children because of that, I do believe that people give up too easily on marriage. But when I met my husband, he changed all that. Suddenly I saw us sitting there years down the road and with lots of kids, grandkids, house, the whole thing! I never thought in a million years that I would be thinking what I am now. I have tried for so very long to avoid the inevitable, saying that I would stay married no matter what.

 

Well, now I have grown up a bit and am realizing I made a serious error. One that is causing all kinds of pain to all kinds of people. I sacrificed MY FEELINGS for years to save those of others. Now I am paying the ultimate price. I AM unhappy. I know what I need to do, from the bottom of my heart. I need to put ME first. I need to separate. It is the ONLY conclusion I keep coming to. I was hoping that I would feel differently after some time away. But all I feel is trapped. I guess the bottom line is that I need to get away. I need to be on my own. Make my own decisions, make my own mistakes.

 

Perhaps after some time of being on my own, and if he and I do get to a point of rekindling the relationship, maybe there will be something. I just don’t believe it. I guess because I have been living with it for so long, crying myself to sleep at nights, when alone, waiting for the chemistry to appear, TRYING to make it happen for ME to feel it for him-- And it never has—I know what to do.

 

Sad as it is, and as hard and painful as it will be, I need to get out. For a good long time. And it may be permanent, it may not be. I am not absolutely sure about divorce just yet, I am still giving it time to think and see what happens. But the bottom line is this, I cannot stay where I am and I HAVE to make a real move. I HAVE to take care of ME—no matter the cost. If it’s meant to be, then it will be.

 

*********The End***************

[Ash]

Hey, you've been doing some real soul searching. And you're being true to yourself. I know it must hurt you to know that he's hurting.

 

I do hope the separation gives you the space and time you need to know if this is the right decision.

 

And certainly don't worry at all about the long post. There's a lot of info there.

[ramsickle1369]

Thanks Ash, you've been a great help. I know that this is going to be hard, and painful for us both. I hope I can do all in my power to minimize it, but I guess it's something we have to go thru if there is any future at all for us.

 

I am still waiting for that revelation that I DO want this to work out. Guess that's gonna take time to see if it will come or not...

 

XOXO to you all!

[ramsickle1369]

Another update... I had my therapy this evening and she agrees with what I am feeling. Or at least she thinks that it is in MY best interest. She suggested taking a couple weeks of NO contact with my husband to see how I feel. Now to convince the husband to do that... This will be hard to do. She also told me to let go of trying to make him not hurt--which is incredibly hard for me to do, but I must.

 

Anyway, I guess that's where I stand...

[venus777]

good for you. it's going to be hard, but you know now what you need to do... keep us posted.

[Ash]

Ramsickle, you don't have to try and convince your husband to not contact you. Let him know once, simply, that you are going under the advice of your therapist and you both think it's best if you let things sit for a little while. What you might want to do is tell him he can email you, but not to expect any replies for a while. That way, he can still say what he feels he needs to say, and you can avoid having to communicate with him for a while. Whether you read the emails or not is entirely up to you, but try to resist responding (if you go this route) because he will more than likely try to draw you back into a conversation.

 

It's tough. I hope the relative silence will give you the peace you need to settle a bit. And as Venus says, if you want, do let us know how you're doing.

[Stambler]

No kids? That may be a blessing in disguise. Believe me, I'm going through this with my wife right now. She is no longer sexually attracted to me, and we had an unbelievable sex life, she used to tell me all the time, she orgasmed 99.9% of the time Always said it got better and better. Unfortunately, I turned into a self-pitying * * * * * * *, and she lost all respect and desire for me, now, despite my revelation and 180 degree turn around, she can't get it back. And we have a 2 ½ year old.

 

Bottom line is, if you don't have kids, I would suggest moving on. Is your husband needy? That WAS my problem, big turn-off to women.

 

Anyhow, maybe we should get together since we are both in the same situation !!!! (LOL) – just being silly…

[ramsickle1369]

Thanks everyone!

 

I wouldn't exactly call him needy... he's a pretty strong minded guy. I am a little needy tho. Especially right now. I am typically very independent, but for some reason, with him I relied too much on him to make me happy.

 

The issue with the passion is that he doesn't show any. He never NEVER has. We have never had an amazing sex life... I think part of it really was that I never felt needed sexually. Wanted, yes, but never needed. And as much as I needed it, it never came the way I needed it.

 

Ash, I like your idea about the email. But I don't know if I want to receive anything. Reading his pain will only hurt. But I guess he does need to start evaluating the situation for himself. I'll think about it.

 

Anyhow, maybe we should get together since we are both in the same situation !!!! (LOL) – just being silly…

Camber, thanks for the thought We don't have kids yet, that's a good tihng for sure. Not for lack of the thought, just lack of actually TRYING. I decided about a year ago that maybe having a kid would make me feel better. Just another sign that it wasn't supposed to be.

 

I am just hurting so very much. I wish I could make it all stop. The therapist says i just have to go thru it and I will then know. I felt better last night after talking to her. But this morning it's just so hard. And I'm by myself a lot right now, that's even harder.

[Stambler]

Hang in there! I know the feelings you are having all to well. I am only starting to take care of myself, and THAT is what will get you through this. My feelings of neediness are slowly fading, as I concentrate on running, the gym, work, and being there for my son.

 

I know what you are going through and it isn't pleasant. It's downright miserable. Sometimes it feels as if life isn't worth living and you can't go on. But guess what (and I KNOW you DON'T want to hear this) learning to love yourself and look after you own needs WITHOUT relying on another person will make you stronger and stronger each day. And then you won't be vulnerable to this sort of thing (or not AS vulnerable). Two things to consider:

 

1) You can't expect someone to fulfill ALL of your needs ad wants, that's not fair to either partner. But true loves means they fill a special place in your life, not your entire life. Don't "Fall into a relationship".

 

2) Couples are like a cup and saucer. Each one has a purpose in life and is fully functional alone. Yet when put together, they create an integrated product. Know what I'm sayin'?

 

Set some goals, go out and work on attaining them. I guarantee your mind will soon be focused on those goals, not just your Husband and your feelings of hurting him.

 

Go on, just do it. And if you EVER need support of advice, we're all here for you. NJRon and Lunabelle helped me incredibly. Just remember that, we're here to see you through this. Take it out on the keyboard; take it out on us NOT on yourself or your Husband.

 



[ramsickle1369]

Thanks. I will take that advice about setting some new goals. I've been considering continuing my education for some time now. Perhaps it's the right time.

 

My only issue beyond the relationship is that I have almost no income. I have always worked, but been trying to start my own biz too. The biz has taken a wonderful turn (in fact it's what started all this, the one thing I always thought made me unhappy was making me happy and I was still VERY sad) but it is still in it's infancy and not consistently making money. And, I can't just go get a job because i need to be available for this stuff.

 

My entire life is in limbo... What a joy

[NJRon]

Be careful not to make too many changes at once. Concentrate on what's most important to you right now and focus on that. If it's your new business, then better to make that your priority for a while.

[ramsickle1369]

Thanks, I will consider that, too. May I ask why you suggest that? I somewhat feel that if I am going to make this kind of change in my life, why not everything I don't like? It might just be the hurt in my trying to make myself feel better, but it does seem to make sense...

 

BTW, The new business has been in "new" status for 4 years. I am not even sure it can be considered new any more, it's just not as far along as I need it to be, financially, in fact, it is not even a business unless you have clients, right?