Choose between love and sexual chemistry?

[Scout]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camber

Anyhow, maybe we should get together, sounds as if we aren’t having our needs met in the same department!!!

 

Camber, I am flattered at the offer. Let me think about that O

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camber

(what the heck is a Ramsickle anyhow?).

 

A ramsickle is a pet name that my soon-to-be-ex came up with. Similar to a popsickle, too bad it never materialized Guess I better start thinking about changing those things, too.

 

I apreciate the support. I really do. And I also realize that even if I don't agree with a statement, it's still support and I am thankful to have heard it. We can't expect that we'd all agree. If we did it wouldn't be so helpful.

 

And yes, I have moved out... permanently. I do need to address that bit with him yet. I so far took a couple days in Feb. then went back. Then took 4 more in early March and haven't returned. So I guess the actual realization that it is in fact over is yet to come for him. But, since it's past the point of rescue for me, I guess there's nothing left to consider.

 

Ouch. I wouldn't be surprised if we end up seeing your soon-to-be-ex here on eNotalone at some point.

[ramsickle1369]

TiredMan,

 

I am not sure what you are referring to about the issue. I agree that NOW (after 7 years of waiting and begging) it is ME that is uninterested. However, had he actually tried SOMETHING when he realized I was on the fence a couple months ago, perhaps I wouldn't be feeling this way now. I have NOT cheated nor do I ever plan to. But I know that I am unhappy with him. We ARE friends, and I hope we can manage to salvage some of that when this is all said and done, but we never have been lovers, never.

 

I guess the underlining issue now is that I made a mistake marrying a man that didn't reciprocate the passion of a lover as I did know this long ago. I also was disallusioned that this was something he would grow into. But he hasn't. And it certainly isn't for a lack of MY trying. He simply isn't that man. Subsequently, I have altered myself to accommodate him, thereby losing everything I hold dear in a marriage. Otherwise, we are just best buddies and marriage was clearly the wrong decision.

 

I don't recall if you have ever experienced the same thing (I thought you had, but I may be wrong) and I couldn't imagine anyone feeling happy that their husband/wife is not sexually interested in them. Maybe that's just my sex drive in overdrive. But I've sacrificed and waited for years, and now I am angry enough that I've gone cold, so yes, that there is my issue. But I've been waiting for something that will never come.

 

Hope you don't take anything too harsh or as offensive , I certainly do not intend to sound that way. I appreciate your comments.

[ramsickle1369]

Ouch. I wouldn't be surprised if we end up seeing your soon-to-be-ex here on eNotalone at some point.

 

 

Scout, I am sorry, I'm not sure what the ouch is referring to? If it's the offer bit, I was joking about it... Trying to maintain some sense of humor.

 

I would LOVE to see him post on here. It would be of great help to him. However, since he wont even call a therapist to figure out what's impairing him, I don't think he'd post here. But you never know. People can sometimes surprise you.

[Stambler]

Quote:

 

Ouch. I wouldn't be surprised if we end up seeing your soon-to-be-ex here on eNotalone at some point.

 

 

...I'm not following. Anyhow, as Ramsickle said, we have to keep our sense of humor, don't we? I also find it interesting that Ramsickle and I have the same problem (no sexual desire from our spouse) but for such very opposite reasons!

[Scout]

I'm sorry, Ramsickle. I haven't contributed much to this thread, but I do want you to know I've really recognized you've poured your soul out here. It's just, while you've been in a relationship for the last decade, I was single a great deal of that time. (not now)

 

Thus, I know how painfully lonely it can be out here. And while you see excitement in the unknown, I know personally that there's a lot of alienation and disconnection between men and women in today's dating world. Enough that you might look back at your marriage with a completely different perspective and determination to fix, no matter how impossibly hard or undesirable a proposition it might seem now.

[Ash]

I don't know about that one. Sounds like this is more your issue and not his. I am of the belief that there is NO excuse to ever cheat. Not one at all. I don't believe in all that peaking stuff. I am 30 and I am as "frisky" as I was before (sometimes more) but it's importance has gone down since I matured.

 

I wouldn't term issues as "her" issue or "his" issue. It is an issue, a differing of the way the two of them see things. It's not exactly possible for person A to disagree with person B, but person B agree with person A. What I'm saying in other words is that the mismatch about passion is an issue for both of them. Just because he didn't think it was a problem doesn't mean it's a non issue.

 

No cheating has occurred to the best of my knowledge. That's the whole reason we're all here discussing this.

 

I've seen a fair amount of evidence that there does seem to be a sexual peak or certainly a lessening or increasing of sexual drive. For example, you say you don't believe in it, but then give precisely the opposite observation by saying it's not as important.

 

Ouch. I wouldn't be surprised if we end up seeing your soon-to-be-ex here on eNotalone at some point.

 

I know there was some discussion on this. And yeah ... Scout is identifying there are two people involved here who perhaps need support. Regardless of the fact Ramsickle has been posting here (and in fact she's already told us) that her husband is hurting. I don't think anybody is intending (or actually being) insensitive.

 

This thread has been going for a while now, and in some ways it's almost unusual for all of us to actually see things unfolding as they are in this case in real time (day by day that is). It's pretty invaluable for others to see who are close to this type of situation, perhaps contemplating going the same way, to be able to see what it's really like and the difficulty involved with making the decisions. It's an ongoing thing for a while. It isn't just a matter of making a simple decision, wrapping everything neatly up and moving on. It's a slow progressions through a series of difficulties, second thoughts, doubts, questions about whether you're really doing the right thing.

[ramsickle1369]

This thread has been going for a while now, and in some ways it's almost unusual for all of us to actually see things unfolding as they are in this case in real time (day by day that is). It's pretty invaluable for others to see who are close to this type of situation, perhaps contemplating going the same way, to be able to see what it's really like and the difficulty involved with making the decisions. It's an ongoing thing for a while. It isn't just a matter of making a simple decision, wrapping everything neatly up and moving on. It's a slow progressions through a series of difficulties, second thoughts, doubts, questions about whether you're really doing the right thing.

 

 

Thanks Ash,

 

I do hope that my posts will help others. I couldn't imagine going through this without the support I've received here. I only hope that there are others who may be less willing to share their issues with the world who may gain support just by reading our discussion...

 

And Scout,

 

I agree that there is a loneliness in being single. I actually addressed that fear with the therapist and her response was that I am more lonely WITH my husband right there with me. I am afraid that there will be a long bout of lonliness. And maybe that will make me reconsider my decision, it’s a chance I’m taking. The thing of it is that I just don’t think it will ever be there like I need it with him.

[TiredMan]

I don't know. If I am married for many years and my wife brings up "sexual issues" as her reason for wanting to go away, I would curse the day I ever met her. But that's me. Grass always SEEMS greener on the other side but you never know.

 

I also don't feel it is the other person's responsibility if one person needs more "oomph" in the bedroom.

[ramsickle1369]

I wonder, if the issue was brought to your attention for YEARS and nothing changed, would you feel any differently? Would the emptiness build and grow into anger? Would you enjoy feeling alone and ugly all the time? Would you really want to stay that way? Would you really want HER to feel that way? Just things to consider. There is much more than the ACT of sex... It's the absense and the emptiness that lingers that causes the issue--not the sex itself. JMHO

[Derek]

T-man, the only person in the universe (if you remain faithful) that is able to meet certain sexual needs is your marriage partner. So sure you could self-pleasure to take the edge off or whatever, but still there is a certain amount of responsibility that you get in a committed relationship for each others needs. And even putting the others needs before your own.

 

About the current situation in the thread,

I think a separation for a time is fine to shake things up. I think counselling would be good while separated. I think real change has to occur, rebuilding of trust and intimacy from scratch needs to happen. It needs to be thought of as a whole new relationship (not the one from 7 years ago) a whole new one starting with two new people that are 7 years older from those people that started 7 years ago. They are both different people now. I think him being "present" and "engaged" in the marriage instead of "absent" is a fixable thing.

 

I don't think divorce is the long term answer to happiness. But that's just my opinion.

[Scout]

Ramsickle, if for years I was frustrated with an aspect of my relationship, and my partner did not put in his share of the effort needed to fix it, I would be very angry and resentful. I understand where you're coming from there.

 

It's just...I sense there are other issues, too, namely that you never were really on your own. It seems the sex issue is being placed as one of the primary reasons you're leaving, but you do acknowledge that you're excited about being on your own for the first time ever in your life.

 

Again, I can just say that from the opposite side of the fence, many singles actually hate the loneliness of being on their own. After all, we're kind of made to pair up with folks, that's why there's such a thing as love, I guess.

 

In your first post, you actually positioned the relationship with your husband as a very close one, except for the sex part. Some other things came out as this thread grew...I guess we see more often the folks who have been left, rather than did the leaving, here on eNotalone. We see the devastating effects of divorce, and we see their incredible pain. So, it's difficult for some of us to give a 100% stamp of approval on your decision - not that you're asking for that, and you've been very responsive to all of the posts on here, not just the ones that agree that leaving your husband is the right decision.

 

I guess it seems to me you did invest so many years into this relationship, that it's a shame some kind of intensive marital counseling can't happen before you seek the divorce. I would think your husband might be more receptive to this if he knows it's the last recourse. I don't know.

[eljose]

No offense TiredMan, but when I was your age, I felt exactly the same way. You may need the perspective of 7 or 14 years in an unfulfilling, unresolvable marriage before you can comment so swiftly on someone in that situation.

 

And as far as the other persons responsibility for "oomph" in the bedroom. I totally disagree. Where do you go for that? And if not with your spouse, then why get married? My wife knew I valued an active sex life before we got married, why is it o.k. for her to change that condition after the fact? I spent the better part of 10 years trying to get her to work with me on that.

 

Same with Ramsickle, what is the statute of limitations on being with a partner that does not want to meet you half way? According to you it is never. I do not accept that the rest of my life should be hobbled because my spouse does not value trying once the knot was tied.

[TiredMan]

I wonder, if the issue was brought to your attention for YEARS and nothing changed, would you feel any differently? Would the emptiness build and grow into anger? Would you enjoy feeling alone and ugly all the time? Would you really want to stay that way? Would you really want HER to feel that way? Just things to consider. There is much more than the ACT of sex... It's the absense and the emptiness that lingers that causes the issue--not the sex itself. JMHO

 

Your original post about this was saying that you guys have a great relationship, laugh, have fun, are best friends, spend time together, etc etc. ONLY the stuff in the bedroom.

 

Then again, I believe in loyalty in relationships too. Some people just shouldn't get married.

 

And eljose, I have been with the same woman for 8+ years now.

[Derek]

T-man, after 600+ posts, you should know that people often write quickly in their first post to a thread only the surface details, she did expand later on in the thread that it is more than just sex. The original post is only an intro and not usually precise enough.

 

That's what threads are for.

 

 

[Scout]

But often, what comes out in the first post are the most important summary points from the poster's perspective. I'm with Tired Man on this, I think there was acknowledgement from Ramsickle right up front that her husband was a very good partner in many ways.

[ramsickle1369]

I think there was acknowledgement from Ramsickle right up front that her husband was a very good partner in many ways.

 

You are both right about the relationship being a wonderful one. The real underlining problem is that the chemical reaction between two people that makes them more than friends simply isn't there. And I also admit that I screwed up... I never should have married my best friend when that's ALL the relationship was. That was my fault and I knew it long before marriage. I guess I assumed that somehow, "IF" I did all the right things, the rest would fall into place.

 

I spent last evening talking with him and trying to explain that I do not feel that we are more than friends. When he hugs me, it feels like my dad is comforting me. When he talks about how he should have made the small advances in the beginning I am only reminded that he doesn't already feel the need to do that, he's now read a book and knows that was necessary, but never acted on his own. And the fact that he never acted on his own speaks volumes to me. It makes me more and more clear that we were not supposed to be more than great friends.

 

Whatever that "feeling" is that makes a couple more than friends, whether it's chemistry or it is called something else, I don't know, but it simply isn't there. It really never was.

 

He's not the person I should have married... I failed him in not ending it years before we married. It is my fault overall, I know that, and that's why it is so darn difficult.

 

No matter what it really is, I can't continue being his wife. It's simply not fair to either of us. HE deserves someone that will be there the way a wife is supposed to be. As it sits, as it's BEEN sitting for years, we are great friends. He mentioned last night that "we have really bad timing" when it comes to sex, when I wanted it he didn't and vice versa. And my thought went to if one of the people in a marriage WANT sex, it usually doesn't take much to get the other "going". But in our case, we didn't NEED the sex between us. And that's not what a marriage is about, either.

 

I guess unless you have felt the emptiness DURING sex, you can't really comprehend the damage it does. It's irreversable at this point.

[Ash]

I think in this case it's also important to note that over two weeks have passed. This has given Ramsickle time to think a lot, consider what we've all said, talk to her husband a bit, talk to her therapist a bit, and delve deep beneath the surface of her own feelings and examine them far more fully than she may have when she wrote the initial post. Given that I would expect things to evolve. Undoubtedly, her thoughts could easily differ somewhat from when she first posted. After all, that's actually what we hope will happen, meaning the advice and life experiences we relay to others help them in reaching their next emotional or intellectual step, whatever that might be.

 

Another thing too that comes to mind at this point is about friendship. I'm male, and over the years have had some great male friends as would be hoped for with anybody. We laughed and joked. Had meals together doing homework assignments, or nights out in the bars trying to attract women. We had triumphs together (even the small ones like getting the car running again after it broke), and losses (being there when something bad happened to a family member or a relationship). We lent money back and forth, covered for each other at times. I think you get the picture. We had a whole bunch of good things but were NOT in a relationship, and there was of course not even a HINT of sex. Furthest thing anybody would ever think of in a situation like that. So, that being the case, if you're in a sexless marriage, is it any different? What is one of the things that makes a marriage different? Well ... the whole idea is you marry a mate and remain faithful to that mate. Not a best friend, or a good buddy, but a mate who you intend to ... well ... mate with! (that's one of the meanings of the word after all) So given that, sex is a huge factor in marriage. I don't really think we can say that it's just sex.

 

And I have to say, there is a fundamental difference between being with somebody and being married to them. It's like the difference between not having children and treating your cat or dog as if they were a kid, and actually having kids. Yeah, many things are the same between a long term relationship and marriage, but there are some fundamental differences too, (though depending on where you live, being with somebody for more than a certain length of time constitutes a common law marriage, so effectively it is a marriage and the same legal obligations are required.)

[Scout]

As always, Ramsickle, I commend you on the tremendous soul-searching you are doing. Whether it's hopeless, right, wrong...whatever...at least you're doing some hard thinking about it.

[NJRon]

I guess unless you have felt the emptiness DURING sex, you can't really comprehend the damage it does. It's irreversable at this point.

 

I can completely identify with this. I'm just curious if he feels it's empty also. I have read a lot about what you think and what you want to do. What does he want? Does he want the marriage to continue? Or is he realizing that, as Ash alludes to, there really isn't a marriage here. More of a comfortable companionship. Is he afraid to lose you, or to lose your companionship?

 

I know when my marriage failed, I was more distraught over the fact that what I had thought to be a 'permanent' covenant had been broken, than the fact that I was losing someone special to me. It really shattered my idealistic view of life. Of course, it took me a while to separate those feelings out and realize it.

[ramsickle1369]

As always, you all speak such truths. Of course, there are some differences in what I need and what my husband feels he needs. The difference in the effort is that I immediately went to him, to counseling, etc to try and find some remnant of this marriage I could cling to. Instead, I found the opposite. Only now, after informing him of my decision to divorce is he starting to take these actions. The difference between men and women I guess. Honestly, I do not know what he REALLY wants. He speaks of the house, the cats, the dog, the trailer, the timeshare, the "memories". And that's normal, I feel that too. There's a wonderful friendship I may be jeopardizing. I have tried to get him to address what makes him not act out what he swears he's been feeling, he's never done anything (until now--now that it's too late).

 

He says he will be doing counseling as I've been requesting. He wants me to go to, which I intend to do, but the outcome will likely be where we are, just with some understanding for him, at least that is my hope. One thing that concerns me is his ability to basically ignore anything that hurts and press on happily. He did it last night. It was weird. But there was not an ounce of passion.

 

It may have something to do with the fact that his oldest brother passed 10 years ago, at 30. It was a long ordeal. As a child the brother had a blood transfusion and contracted HIV, and eventually AIDS killed him. The family barely talks about him. They never went to grief counseling. Mom cries at the drop of a hat, the other brother drinks like mad and has severe issues being around a crowd. Dad is the only one that seems to be able to talk about the other brother as if he existed. I believe they need some help and that this may be a way that my husband has found to deal with pain--ignoring it because it's unpleasant and unhappy. I hope the counseling helps with that and he is able to find that passion and able to experience what everyone needs. I kind of got off topic, sorry.

 

T-man, I understand your ideals, more than you may think. Coming from a broken marriage, second generation and most of my family being divorced, I never wanted to get married because it seems they all fail. Now, to be fair, my mother and step-father have been married now for almost 30 years. So it's not just something that is in my genes.

 

What I do believe is that people are pressured into marriage MUCH MUCH too young. We don't even really know who we are until about 30, apparently. IMO, had I waited to get married, I might have made a different choice, or I might have realized and achieved who I will be the rest of my life. How anyone can make life-long decisions at 20, 25 or even 30 is unbeknownst to me.

 

Thank you Scout for recognizing the agonizing thought process I have endured. I would never wish this on anyone, but it is something so very common, it just makes me wonder about the society we all live in. Why IS so much pressure put on young people to get married? Who are these people that tell us it's "time"? It's not right, but also something we can not control in others. When the time comes and I have children and they are at an age of long relationships, I will be sure to tell them to wait just a little while longer before deciding. At least wait till 30. JMHO from my own experiences I guess...

[Scout]

Ha! The pressure really intensifies when you're 36 and still unmarried. I have been with my current boyfriend for four months, and my mom is asking me when he plans on getting me a ring. Yeah, I'll just pass that question along to him and see how that flies...

 

Anyway, you raise some good points. I personally was a Neanderthal until I hit about 33, 34...but, if you were able to maintain a marriage this long, that started at such a young age for you, I think you must have been an immensely more mature person than I was in my twenties.

 

You said some thought-provoking things about your husband's way of dealing with stressful or conflictual situations. I'm going to send you an article called "Relationship Boredom" that I've been absolutely impressed with. And have already sent it to a few other folks. It basically talks about how certain behaviors in our relationships can zap all the excitement and genuine interest we once had in our partners. Maybe it will give you a little insight. There's one part where it talks about a certain kind of partner who avoids raising or even dealing with difficult issues because they mistakenly believe that's the best thing to do for the relationship. They are afraid confronting these issues will result in acrimony, loud arguments...and maybe they will, but the consequences of holding everything in are actually more deadly to a relationship.

[ramsickle1369]

Thank you Scout. I read both the articles. I found both very interesting and am somewhat saddened that we did fall into a boring relationship. He never had much drive to improve himself while I was probably overly-eager to improve myself. Perhaps that means more than I ever thought.

 

I think I will reread both of them and consider them further... Thanks again.

[Derek]

Maybe ramsickle's husband needs to read Poco's post:

 

I think guys don't have inate relationship skills like women have, and we can learn to get better at it.

 

[Scout]

Thank you Scout. I read both the articles. I found both very interesting and am somewhat saddened that we did fall into a boring relationship. He never had much drive to improve himself while I was probably overly-eager to improve myself. Perhaps that means more than I ever thought.

 

I think I will reread both of them and consider them further... Thanks again.

 

You're very welcome.

[ramsickle1369]

OK, I give... Who's POCO? Sounds like a smart man(??)! Thanks for pointing me there. It's interesting that most of that thread is coming from the man and relating to some things my husband does, and yet I am the one that needs out.

 

A few more tid bits for those still interested (and because I'm still sorting thru stuff)...

 

There are many similarities to that post. I do want to get out because lying in bed or having sex feels like “friend” (I hesitate to call it brother because, come on, how many of us REALLY know what it’s like to have sex with their sibling—don’t answer that). Anyway, it feels love-less. Desire-less. Passion-less. We have never had a desirable sexlife, meaning that neither of us really ever DESIRED to have sex with the particular significant other. I did have the desire to have sex, tho, that was simply physical.

 

My husband is not a flirtatious person by nature, I am. I flirted with him, teased, did many of the things a woman can do to turn a man on and rarely got a reaction. He has done a few things to be “romantic” but nothing to “tease”. Perhaps that’s the most important thing IN a relationship. That is what keeps it alive. I would love to read those articles Poco speaks of… Anyone know where I can get them? As I look back, there were no massage oils (although I bought them and paraded them around and used them) but HE never touched them. The toys, too he wouldn’t touch. Not an ounce of curiosity. Lingerie was interesting, but not to the point of, “WOW, I must have my way with her NOW”. None of that desire exists in him FOR me. And now it doesn’t in me for him. We have NEVER had sex for more than 20 minutes. People talk about hours… and it turns me into a maniac. I can only imagine! And believe me, I have a GREAT imagination, coupled with erotic dreams—no wonder I was sleeping so much!

 

He was not a weak personality outside the bedroom, but inside he was weak and controlling, if that is even imaginable. He wouldn’t try new things out of fear I suppose. A fear I was unable to lessen. In fact, everything I did say was taken as criticism and he went even further into denial and regression. He does give in to me, because I can be a pill if I really want something. I can argue, and he maybe decided that it was not worth the fight. But had he argued, maybe we would have experienced make up sex, just once would have been nice. But no desire ever followed even the small disagreements we had. Instead, we’d go to dinner or a movie or worse, shopping. Like you would with a relative or a friend.

 

I guess my point is, and my reasoning that this simply cannot be worked out is really based on that complete lack of desire between us. I wish I could explain it and make everyone understand, but I can’t. So now I have to begin my own acceptance and realization that this is really real and happening. For many years I thought about what I would do if I weren’t married. When I was having those thoughts, I now realize I should have started fighting for us then. But I didn’t. I was in denial, too. And that doomed us.

 

Anyway, enough of me for now. You all take care and thanks for the support. ALL of it…