The big can of worms... taking lovers that are "under" you on the dating ladder:

[Da5id]

CAUTION To the poor soul reading this.... it is a vomitous amount of information pulled from countless hours of discussion, therapy, thoughts and painful introspection into my own experiences of the areas in question:

 

This is a continuation of a discussion that spawned in this thread.

 

I have received a number of PM's about this with people identifying and asking questions so I figured I would start a topic on this discussion.

 

I must add, that while I am sorry there are people going through the same pain I am, it feels sooooo good to know that I am not alone and that this particular scenerio may be relatively common. It helps me to un-personalize the rejection, abandonment and betrayal I feel at perpetually failed attempts in these areas.

 

So... here's the thread:

 

 

Previous Thread

 

And.... drumroll please.... the big question:

 

 

 

Unfortunately, I am terribly afraid that it does.

 

I think, in the end it comes down to two things...

1. Roles defined in a relationship early on that are extremely difficult to break.
   
2. Changing of fundamental facets in a person and the ramifications therein.

I'll explain and I'll use my own relationships as examples:

 

For the record I have repeated this pattern FOUR times over 9 years with an average relationship duration of 18 months.

 

Every single one of those relationships is a twisted version of this story:

 

We meet and begin to date. She is blown away at all I have to offer and she begins to be the initiator of contact, of dates, of intimacy and of sex. For me, this goes on for anywhere from 3-6 months, during which time I have an extremely good time spoiling her and showing her new things.

 

After carefully watching her behavior and feeling confident that she loves me I make her my official girlfriend. (insert ticking clock sound here)

 

Things are WONDERFUL!

 

We spend every moment we can together. We begin to freely enjoy eachother's love and deep sentiments... we begin making plans for the future. We talk of moving in together... of marriage... of children... of growing old together.

For me, it's usually the frequency of sex that takes the first hit... then it's passionate french kissing... and even minor physical affection. Then slowly but surely, she begins taking on more interest outside the relationship and less "she and I" activities. Going out with co-workers more often to functions she didn't frequent as much during the first part of the relationship... going out dancing with the girls a little more often than usual, etc... just a few signs.

 

Within 6 more months, I will usually hear the phrase "I just don't know how I feel anymore and I don't know why."

 

Which brings me back to answer your question:

1) Roles taken early-on in a relationship

 

When I take on a lover that is not on my level I immediately assume the role of caretaker. Now, this may not always take the form of nurturing and financially supporting, but might even simply take the form of being looked up to as "gee I never thought a person like you would like a person like me." For me it's usually all of the above.

 

But let's think about it realistically. If you are with someone that you, deep down inside feel is "better than you" or even just farther along in life... instead of feeling happy about it... after a while you might simply start to feel bad about yourself.

 

Eventually, that other person becomes a representation of all the work you still have to do and all that you have not become.

 

Perhaps we make them feel inferior... and if I am a thousand percent honest, I will sometimes feel like I am not getting what's "owed" to me if they are not acting the way I like them to. I begin to subtly complain about their behavior and have been known from time to time, to sulk about it. Prompting the question, "what's wrong?" or "are you mad at me?"

 

And then there's the other scary one:

 

2) Changing fundamental facets of a person

 

There's another scenerio where I help the person attain new levels of success and awareness. In doing so I am hoping that they will be grateful and together we will be a solid and profound team.

 

Unfortunately, I am afraid that more often than not, either I or the relationship represent what the other person used to be and as they grow it's important to leave that behind, along with the part of themselves that needed nurturing and help to be successful. They need to believe that they would have and can do it without me.

 

Either way, in my experience, relationships that start this unevenly skewed do not work out.

 

The thing I can't figure out is, in every relationship where I take on the role of caretaker, how come I always end up getting the short end of the stick?

 

I am often left feeling used, abandoned an deeply unnapreciated.

 

Whew... okay! Sorry, there's a lot to chew on here, but hopefully I have articulated my points well enough to continue.

 

Cheers!

[teacup]

u know that was long and that half of us are illiterate right? okay, anyways.

 

i tend to date men who are a couple steps down the ladder. i wonder why. do i do this on purpose? is it subconscious? am i looking to compensate for something? do i think im not worthy?

 

i've met men that are dumber. (turn-off) uglier (eww) fatter (ewww) poorer.....boring, unfun. i have to wonder what's wrong with me. is it because their safe? is it because they have nothing to offer? is it because it's security? is it because i like dating down? what is wrong with me? i have to figure this out. i should be dating up right???

 

and now that i think about it, i feel ashamed, regretful, i feel BAD. argh...and disgusted. sighhhhhhhhhhh like i have such low standards or no standards or something. sighhhhhhhhhhh

 

this is a difficult topic to think or talk about because i dont want to probe or examine myself any farther. argh........it's like i dont want to know the answers myself.

[sukerbut]

david ..all i mmust say is WOW! you are so on the money with this thread. i just came out of a break up with this girl 22..i am 30 and very well established...we dated for 17 months 7 months casual and 10 months as b/f g/f ..i mean you are so right..i to this day still love her but she was not even close to my level..but i did want to nerture her..even change her for the best..i am just stunned as to how right you are..kudos my man...you just made me feel so good..thank you

[renaissancewoman101]

Funny thing with me is both me and my ex are caretakers. My ex likes to choose women who are younger than him and who can look up to him and he can take care of them. Before I came around, he picked women who were just 18 or little older. Most times he picked women that were young and were somewhat dependent on him to be rescued from unhappy home situations, or women that did not work and he could "rescue" them by providing them a nice, fun life on his meager salary. Like me, he is also a rescuer. I was the first person he ever dated that was the same age as him, and who was more successful than him. His parents loved me and wanted me to stay in the relationship because they saw me as a role model for him to get his life together. Ultimately, my success (or what he saw as my successful lifestyle) caused him to lose his feelings for me. He wanted to rescue me, but he didnt really know how since he is used to people who are young and look up to him. I did look up to him because he tried to rescue me by being there for me all the time, putting me first in his life, including me in things, etc.

 

Like you said,the first few months were great. I introduced him to a lifestyle that he had never had before and I did a lot for him, something that no one ever did for him and he fell in love with me. He treated me well,etc. He was the first one to initiate sex, call me his girlfriend, etc. Things went great for about 10 months, then all of a sudden he became confused because he lost his "love" feelings for me. But, he wanted to make this work out, so he persisted and came back for a second try.

 

Second time around (second year), things started off great, but I lost my feelings for him, why I dont know (since you as caretaker didnt seem to lose your feelings for the girl). With my loss of feelings, I began to pull away, initiate less, and go back to hanging out with a friend of mines that was an old ex, but that we shared a lot more in common with.

 

That ultimately killed the relationship.

 

The sad thing is now I want my ex back because I still want to "rescue" him.

[sukerbut]

you can lead a horse to water but you cant force it to drink...i looooove this girl...i always did i know her for 5 years..and yes she also has family problems..i am pretty well off and being a broker i have access to a nice social life style. she was loving it..when does a 22 year old get to be lavished with gifts love and a great social lyfe..she has been to every top tier rest..in the city...regularly. its not only because i loved her that i did that but also because it is part of my life style...in july she is telling me how much she loves me etc.. and how we are going to get married..we go to costa rica in aug. come back and then she starts getting flaky on me..finaLLY and i have heard this from her before..she tells me i dont love you like you love me..so i had to let her go..because i love her so much i had to do the right thing..she is motivated and hard working. beutiful and very articulate..and thats what i fell in love with, but she is alos 22 and just starting her life journey. she needs to grow before she realizes what she wants and what is right and wrong. i would get annoyed at her for not resiprocating the love that i wanted..eventually that drove us a part. it suks but being an adult i should of not put so much weight in her marriage words. i was the idiot here not her.

[bsp_kjm]

Excellent write-up!

 

This paragraph is pretty much an exact summary of my relationship:

We spend every moment we can together. We begin to freely enjoy eachother's love and deep sentiments... we begin making plans for the future. We talk of moving in together... of marriage... of children... of growing old together.

For me, it's usually the frequency of sex that takes the first hit... then it's passionate french kissing... and even minor physical affection. Then slowly but surely, she begins taking on more interest outside the relationship and less "she and I" activities. Going out with co-workers more often to functions she didn't frequent as much during the first part of the relationship... going out dancing with the girls a little more often than usual, etc... just a few signs.

 

Within 6 more months, I will usually hear the phrase "I just don't know how I feel anymore and I don't know why."

 

and this is exactly how i started to feel and think these last couple months:

I will sometimes feel like I am not getting what's "owed" to me if they are not acting the way I like them to. I begin to subtly complain about their behavior and have been known from time to time, to sulk about it. Prompting the question, "what's wrong?" or "are you mad at me?"

 

Ya know I feel sorta shallow saying this, but I always had a feeling that my gf was a bit jealous of me. I dont want to sound like I'm full of myself, but when I was in highschool, I was Homecoming King, knew everyone in the school, and presently I have 3 vehicles, my parents are always here for me, I live on a 40 acre ranch, I dont have $$$ problems, college classes are easy for me, I still have a lot of friends, etc. My GF only had 1 friend in highschool, didnt get a car until she was 20, always had money problems, always had family problems, lived in a low-income home, has had a hard time with college, and really still had no friends. She always seemed to look up to me, even though there were things about her that were better than me. For example, she was a year ahead of me in college and had a better paying job.

 

When we started dating, I took her to places and did things with her she never dreamt of going to or doing. She never went out before I came along. I introduced her to tons of new people, experiences, etc. I supported her through everything, and so did my family (financially, emotionally, physically, etc).

 

and even though there is more to my scenario, I also believe she has decided she needs to do without me. Like you, I feel used, abandoned, and unappreciated.

 

thank u for the excellent write up Da5id. Really helped clear up some things for me

[Zerohero]

I tend to seriously date "lower level" women as well. But then again, looks arn't everything in a relationship, and I think that women that arn't said to be the best looking are more open to dating than the prettiest girl in town. So I don't mind being the man in shinning armor

[Dako]

It's always amazed me how folks can easily judge who is "better or worse" than themselves. How do you know this upon first meeting someone? Looks, car, social status?

Maybe the size of the ego, income, cosmetic beauty, or amount of indulgence as a child is a factor in this world view.

 

The older I get, I keep seeing new forms of beauty and success that eluded me in my youth when peer pressure reigned. Just my 2 cents.

[Da5id]

Some of what you wrote applies to many relationships, however (not just unbalanced ones). For instance, the following occurs in many relationships. It's due to that initial excitement wearing off:

 

However, in unbalanced relationships, this probably happens to a greater degree than in other relationships.

 

Exactly... in a normal relationship of course there is a cooling off period after the initial excitement... but what I am talking about is a HUGE pendelous swing from "OMG, I can't live without you!" to "I'd rather be alone or hang out with other people, but I really don't want to be around you much anymore."

 

 

 

If they grow, the other person is no longer needed. If they don't grow, it makes them feel inadequate.

 

Bang!

 

There it is... and the really scary part to me is this...

 

I'm afraid that there are really only two roles in a relationship. The caretaker and the cared-for. If this is the case, it seems like being the cared-for is really the way to go.

 

Is it really better to give than to receive? I'm starting to wonder.

[Da5id]

this is a difficult topic to think or talk about because i dont want to probe or examine myself any farther. argh........it's like i dont want to know the answers myself.

 

haha... I so know where you are coming from. And I am not laughing at you.. I am chuckling because I totally indentify with not wanting to look at my own $#iT.

 

But I made a decision that I wanted to change and I wanted to break this pattern, so I started digging and looking at my behavior with an un-flinching eye.

 

I have found a long list of character defects and areas that I need to improve on in order to become the man I wish to be.

 

Becoming aware of these traits is a HUGE step... sometimes it's the only information needed to change the behavior. Sometimes it's harder.

 

Personally, I don't make huge changes to myself unless I am in SO MUCH PAIN that I have no choice. Well... guess what? I have no choice right now... because I am hurting.

 

You're only ready to deal with this stuff when you're ready... but the fact that you are here, on these boards relating to others and sharing part of yourself shows that you are not only open to growth, but active in your participation.

 

Good stuff

[sukerbut]

i too have decided that changes need to be made and just like you .. only when soemthing as panfull as this occurrence made me change my outlook on life and made me look inside myself and realize what i needed to fix...i am not going to lie..i wish she was still next to me..but at the same time if it was not for this bitter pill i had to swallow i would of not be bettering myself asi am doing now. as much as this sucks i am also so excited that i am growing as a complete man...progress not degress ... thats the only way to become the best you can be

[Da5id]

i too have decided that changes need to be made and just like you .. only when soemthing as panfull as this occurrence made me change my outlook on life and made me look inside myself and realize what i needed to fix...i am not going to lie..i wish she was still next to me..but at the same time if it was not for this bitter pill i had to swallow i would of not be bettering myself asi am doing now. as much as this sucks i am also so excited that i am growing as a complete man...progress not degress ... thats the only way to become the best you can be

Dude... you are crushing it! I have been reading your posts and you are absolutely doing the work that is needed to attend to and repair the areas we are talking about.

 

However long it takes, we are simply in that time between relationships right now and the fact that we are working with others, dealing with our issues and cleaning out the wreckage of our past makes it plain to me that we are going to not only be fine... but that this is going to be great!

 

I am slowly becoming excited about the future and about the fun I am going to have rediscovering and re-inventing myself.

 

My goal is to focus on myself... to find the things that make me feel good about me without another person to "fix" me.

 

The next time I get into a relationship I want to make sure that I am absolutely FINE on my own and a wonderful person to love me back will simply be the icing on the cake... not the ONE aspect of my life that makes all the rest bearable.

 

Feel me?

[RayKay]

 

There it is... and the really scary part to me is this...

 

I'm afraid that there are really only two roles in a relationship. The caretaker and the cared-for. If this is the case, it seems like being the cared-for is really the way to go.

 

Is it really better to give than to receive? I'm starting to wonder.

 

I don't think this is true. It may be true in some relationships and with some people - in dependent/co-dependent type relationships. However in relationships with more or a mutual interdependence, and with two complete people who are with someone whom is a PARTNER, not someone who "needs" them or whom they "need" then I think that both people give and receive freely. There are times one may need to receive more then the other, and vice versa, but there is a balance.

 

If you choose people whom are complete, their own person, and you love and accept them for that, rather then choosing people "lower then you" to flatter your ego and give you security, chances are greater you will find a partner and the relationship will be based on equality and reciprocal love and respect, rather then this dependence/codependence that always comes back to bite you in the butt.

[Da5id]

Absolutely... of course I agree with you.

 

And going forward, as I said in my other post, my goal is not only to be okay and complete in and of myself, but to locate and develop a relationship with another person in the same boat.

 

My fear is that this is an un-attainable or simply fleeting state.. and that all relationships end up netting out to one side or the other.

 

I don't mean to sound negative here, but I am discouraged due to my own experiences and those of the people I see around me.

 

We have a 50% divorce rate here in the US and I guarantee the other 50% are not dancing in the streets. In fact, I wonder if the majority of them are simply sticking with their relationship either due to finances, children or good old fashioned respect for their committment.

 

If this is the case, it makes for a very small percentage of the populace experiencing they type of relationship you are talking about... and a huge margin for the rest.

 

The positive side to it is what we are doing here. Sorting out our feelings, comparing experiences and bettering ourselves in the hopes of breaking these patterns and choosing someone you can actually build a successful unit with.

[kpow]

This is an excellent thread. I, too, have been the caretaker in my last two relationships. Thinking that I am entitled, even better, than my partner, because I give so much. I just want someone on my level. It is a scary jump to make, though. As a woman it is so much harder b/c we don't dictate who asks us out. We are left either not going out because the guy isn't up to par and being alone, or going out just "to have fun" and run the risk of getting involved in another inapproptiate match.

 

I agree-- the cared-fors seem to have it right. The only thing we can do is examine our defects, work to improve ourself, make it better.

[RayKay]

No, it's not a fleeting state.

 

Like I said, it's not ALWAYS going to be 50-50. That's impossible. Sometimes one person will need a bit more when going through a rough time, and the balance shifts, the important thing is that when the other person needs more they also receive more...so the balance fluctuates but in the net result, it is about 50-50.

 

True, the other 50% as a whole may not be dancing on the streets, I would say that many of them are having a rough time too, and some of them are staying together for financial reasons, or tradition. But I would also say there are many whom while having rough periods in their relationships as well, would say they are very happy with their relationships as a whole. I know it's easy to be cynical when you look around, but I have also seen many long term successful, positive relationships, and experienced the like after having experienced the unbalanced ones too.

 

Commitment is not a picnic. There are going to be times where you want to throw your hands up and say I give up...but you don't. Why not? Because you love one another, because you are committed to one another and the relationship. Now, this does require people whom feel like partners, equals in the relationship they are creating together.

 

Love grows through shared experience - positive and negative. It is how you deal with things together that defines you as a couple. A good indication of how a couple will do in the long term is not how often they fight for example, but HOW they fight. When a couple can be partners, even in disagreement, and feel that teamanship through all aspects of their lives, their chances, and willingess, to be together is much greater, and their happiness together is there too. Even in the tough times.

[RayKay]

This is an excellent thread. I, too, have been the caretaker in my last two relationships. Thinking that I am entitled, even better, than my partner, because I give so much. I just want someone on my level. It is a scary jump to make, though. As a woman it is so much harder b/c we don't dictate who asks us out. We are left either not going out because the guy isn't up to par and being alone, or going out just "to have fun" and run the risk of getting involved in another inapproptiate match.

 

I agree-- the cared-fors seem to have it right. The only thing we can do is examine our defects, work to improve ourself, make it better.

 

I would say the "cared fors" don't have it right. They too are in an unbalanced relationship. How would you like to find out as a "cared for" that you were seen as "beneath the person you loved". Even if you don't know...you can often FEEL it in a way, perhaps that is why these relationships end. The person gets tired of feeling that way, and takes charge of their own life and own person again. And leave when they realize they can be loved for whom they are as an equal, not as someone who has to be "beneath" their partner.

[Da5id]

Love grows through shared experience - positive and negative. It is how you deal with things together that defines you as a couple. A good indication of how a couple will do in the long term is not how often they fight for example, but HOW they fight. When a couple can be partners, even in disagreement, and feel that teamanship through all aspects of their lives, their chances, and willingess, to be together is much greater, and their happiness together is there too. Even in the tough times.

 

I believe you, and your sentiments give me some hope... and this is definitely the type of relationship I think we are all looking for.

 

I just hope this stuff applies to me too and I don't continually end up as part of the majority we are discussing.

[Da5id]

I would say the "cared fors" don't have it right. They too are in an unbalanced relationship. How would you like to find out as a "cared for" that you were seen as "beneath the person you loved". Even if you don't know...you can often FEEL it in a way, perhaps that is why these relationships end. The person gets tired of feeling that way, and takes charge of their own life and own person again. And leave when they realize they can be loved for whom they are as an equal, not as someone who has to be "beneath" their partner.

I am almost positive that you are correct. As I said in my original post:

 

But let's think about it realistically. If you are with someone that you, deep down inside feel is "better than you" or even just farther along in life... instead of feeling happy about it... after a while you might simply start to feel bad about yourself.

 

Eventually, that other person becomes a representation of all the work you still have to do and all that you have not become.

 

Perhaps we make them feel inferior.

 

What I said about "having the right idea" was really more symbolic of my pain and cynicism. I don't really mean it, or intend to go into new relationships as a "taker."

 

I do however recognize the fact that in all my experiences with this dynamic, the person in the caretaker role (me) has been the one that leaves the relationship with the most amount of anguish.

 

Even in this most recent case... I ended up being the one to offically break it off. Of course, I did so with a boot print on my butt after hearing that she "no longer felt the way she used to and did not feel the same way about me that I did about her."

 

Ouch.

[melrich]

Hi Da5id,

 

Great thread. You have obviously taken a very honest look at your experiences and past relationships. I find myself relating to your experiences and have had similar thoughts in the past.

 

I agree that ideally there should be balance in a healthy relationship between the caregiver/caretaker role. I think you said it very well when you talked about the fact that people in relationships often get pidgeon holed early in the relationship and find it difficult to break out of the role they are playing.

 

In my experience it as actually quite rare to see peopel in balanced relationships. In fact after reading your post I thought through my circle of friends (all married at least 5 years plus) and of maybe 20 couple I can think of only 2 that I would classify as balanced in this regard.

 

It's not that I am saying the others have bad relationships, in fact most of them seem comfortable in the roles they each play but you would defionately be able to nominate a caregiver and caretaker in each case.

[Da5id]

You are correct... the sentiments I have shared here have been very difficult for me to admit, let alone share with an entire community. I think some people have even taken offense, as though I am somehow bragging about "being better than someone else." This is not the case, but I am able to raise my hand and take responsibility for "my side of the street." I could have spent just as much energy complaining about her and her shortcomings, but that affords me nothing.

 

What you mention when you speak of your circle of friends rings true with nearly every person I have discussed this with. As a matter of fact, 2 out of 20 is great! That's 10% of the couples you know... they have the wonderful balanced and supportive relationships I desire.

 

I want to be in that 10%... but I have been unable to achieve that goal yet.

[kpow]

I must say that I agree with you 100% on this thread. Like I said earlier, i have been the "caretaker" and have grown to resent my role, blaming the other person for not living up to their side of the bargain. Problem is, they didn't even know there was a bargain. They just thought it was great to have someone pay the bills, organize the house, "show them the way" as it were-- until the resentment, the feelings of inferiority/superiority grew.

 

It is painfully difficult to look at myself and own the choices I have made. I, too, ended both of my relationships, and ended up, I feel, suffering the most.

 

I have sworn to myself to go into the next relationship with my eyes wide open-- willing and able to accept ALL that is in front of me, not expecting more, not wanting to "change" the other person. And this means i must change myself-- I must not transmit my expectations for myself onto someone else. There is not a "perfect" person out there that will meet all needs at all times. like I have said before, I think many of us are brainwashed as Americans into thinking there is a perfect mate out there, and when it falls short, DIVORCE/BREAKUP.

 

I believe we actually have more control over our feelings/emotions than we give ourself credit for. I am not the champion of managing my emotions, in fact I suck at it, but I believe with time I can improve. This means that when in a relationship, if ever it feels like we are slipping back into an unbalanced state, we can intentionally move our momentum, our weight to the other side and restore balance.

[RayKay]

Ah, brilliant post, and brilliant lesson too to have learned - I agree with you 100%

 

Even if someone is "perfect" for US (even with imperfections) it is not realistic to assume they will always be "on", just as we won't always be "on" - but that does not mean failure - it just means it's another chance to communicate with one another, and learn from another experience and grow.

[Hawk]

Thank you for this post.

 

I have been struggling to understand the reasons why my most recent relationship has broken and reading this I can begin to see that I was taking on the role of caretaker - my partner had her son when she was 17, had not lived a large portion of life that other people had, financially has struggled and from a work perspective needed help to improve herself. So what did I do - I took on the role of knight in shining armour and tried to save her from all of this.

 

Towards the end of the relationship, I began to hear things like "I feel like you are my big brother more than my lover". So what did I try to do - I overcompensated even more. In the end I lost sight of the things that had brought us together - and somewhere in the post I read that when they think there is no further scope for helping them, that really you have outlived your usefulness.

 

Again, thank you - you don't know how much this has helped.

[chaos]

When my ex and I first got together we were working the same position at the same company for the same pay. Almost everything was equal. I had an apartment, she lived with her parents, but also had a new car vs. my 14 year old one. After about 6 months we moved in together. For the next year or so, things remained about even. She took a different job in the same industry, making a bit more. I got something of a promotion and ended up making a bit more than her. Then, circumstances had it, we were working our old jobs for our old pay together again.

 

Things started to change when she quit. She began studying for a new career and stopped bringing in any income. She had some money saved and could help out for awhile, but once that money was gone... That seemed to be when things began to worsen in the relationship. She'd get depressed about not being able to help. She'd get upset about stupid things like my not being able to choose what to have for dinner. She would take an innocent comment like "ugh, it's time to pay rent again" as meaning "you stupid leeching ___", why aren't you helping". Having been in her situation before, I understood the depression and tried to tell her it was okay. I didn't mind supporting us because I knew that once her new career took off, it would be her turn as she'd be making a LOT of money. I guess it was about 6 months of my supporting us before I got the "I can't keep pretending i'm in love with you" talk.

 

Sadly, this means that your theory holds true even if both people in the relationship started out equally. The circumstances can change and BAM, they don't love you anymore. It seems to me that these people are horribly selfish. Like I said, I'd been in that situation. I'd been the "cared-for" and I never once took it out on her. Admittedly, this was the relationships before this one, and obviously we aren't together anymore. That one lasted almost 7 years and we'd just grown apart. It was a very pain free and amicable parting. Anyways, the point being I never blamed her for my feeling inadequate. Maybe that's because I'm able to be very honest with myself about my faults, perhaps too much so. But, to end a relationship, because you feel inadequate, and then to go so far as to blame the other person for everything that went wrong? I feel sorry for her. At least I can learn from the mistakes I did make by being honest with myself. She'll never learn and will likely continue to repeat the same mistakes in her other relationships.