Wandering eye during a date...

[Sam1986]

On 5/11/2024 at 1:57 PM, Sindy_0311 said:

Like I said, it was very quick, kind of like a quick burp… 1 or 2 sc max. Until he realized it was inappropriate and immediately apologized. The issue is, when we talked about what happened he said that its a reflex he is trying to get rid of… meaning that it occurs regularly and maybe already was an issue with other ladies… just another Italian guy after all 😆

This is normal for guys, I do it from time to time as well and its not really something that can be helped as its something that happens instinctively. But the fact that he apologized shows that he is aware of it and made an effort to to correct himself, which I think is a sign of maturity.

[Sindy_0311]

9 minutes ago, Sam1986 said:

This is normal for guys, I do it from time to time as well and its not really something that can be helped as its something that happens instinctively

It happens instinctively to a certain type of men. I think it’s a question of values. I’ve never been in a relationship with a men doing that in front of me (I say it because I don’t really know what they were doing when I wasn’t here even though i canot imagine them doing it this way) High value men don’t behave like that in front of someone they are dating… and him recognizing it was a mistake absolutely doesn’t discredit his behavior. 
 

[Sindy_0311]

12 hours ago, LotusBlack said:

moment was an indicator of the lack of care in other areas of our relationship that would follow

This is exactly what came to my mind. I viewed him as someone who might lack consideration for the other person when in a relationship. And for those who say it’s an instinctive behavior, I would be curious to know if they have the qualities/values required to sustain a healthy relationship… 

[Batya33]

57 minutes ago, Sindy_0311 said:

It happens instinctively to a certain type of men. I think it’s a question of values. I’ve never been in a relationship with a men doing that in front of me (I say it because I don’t really know what they were doing when I wasn’t here even though i canot imagine them doing it this way) High value men don’t behave like that in front of someone they are dating… and him recognizing it was a mistake absolutely doesn’t discredit his behavior. 
 

I think instinctively most people notice their surroundings -survival instinct and natural human condition -taking in your surroundings, noticing something particularly attractive or unusual - my son interrupts our morning conversations as we walk a mile to a bus stop to notice a beautiful bird or sometimes a cute dog being walked.  He apologizes for interrupting.  It's not instinctive at all IMO to stare -that is a choice -and it's offensive to men as a gender to suggest they can't help themselves but stare or ogle.  This is why you don't see this happening let's say in a workplace during a meeting or a business lunch. 

People who want to behave in a thoughtful, respectful way and find themselves having started some bad habit - care enough to do the work so that they do not make others uncomfortable.  People who are decent in their character and integrity want others around them to feel comfortable in their own skin even if something has developed into a bad habit. Habits aren't instincts either.  

[Sam1986]

3 hours ago, Sindy_0311 said:

It happens instinctively to a certain type of men. I think it’s a question of values. I’ve never been in a relationship with a men doing that in front of me (I say it because I don’t really know what they were doing when I wasn’t here even though i canot imagine them doing it this way) High value men don’t behave like that in front of someone they are dating… and him recognizing it was a mistake absolutely doesn’t discredit his behavior. 
 

Thats just you making a baseless claim on how you want the world to be. "High value men dont do X" is just a projection on how you want the world to be, not necessarily how it actually is. I have never cheated and consider myself a high value man (who doesnt?), but according to your strict definition, Im not.

If you want to seek out feedback that just supports your narrative of him being a potential cheating bastard, then by all means go ahead and seek that feedback, but I'm not trying to actively deceive you here. Im just telling it how it is, and the fact that you describe it here as a brief glance (not staring, that is something else entirely) that he apologized for as well, that speaks a lot about how mature he is in recognizing it.

If it was indeed just a quick glance (which he apologized for), I personally think that you are judging him very harshly here. And if this is a recurring pattern on your side (reacting harshly to small perceived slights), I'd be so bold as to say that he is probably the one who dodged a bullet here. Just curious - why do you think that this was a bad thing in? Is there anything that you are worried about?

[yogacat]

@Sam1986

I agree with most of what you said. It's true that men tend to look at women, and it's something that many women are used to. Isn't it different though when the man is on a date and is glancing at other women?

While it may not necessarily be malicious, it can feel disrespectful and dismissive of the woman he is on a date with.

Yes, he apologized and acknowledged it. If this is something that would continue to bother her and make her feel disrespected, especially when he said "it's an ongoing habit" and not something he can control, then it might be best for her to consider whether this is a dealbreaker for her in the long term...

It's not fair to dismiss someone's feelings just because it's "normal" behavior. 

Call her overly choosy, call her paranoid and insecure, those labels don't really mean much to a couple that just met. 

She has a choice between people who make her uncomfortable, and people who don't make her uncomfortable.

[Sam1986]

7 minutes ago, yogacat said:

@Sam1986

I agree with most of what you said. It's true that men tend to look at women, and it's something that many women are used to. Isn't it different though when the man is on a date and is glancing at other women?

While it may not necessarily be malicious, it can feel disrespectful and dismissive of the woman he is on a date with.

Yes, he apologized and acknowledged it. If this is something that would continue to bother her and make her feel disrespected, especially when he said "it's an ongoing habit" and not something he can control, then it might be best for her to consider whether this is a dealbreaker for her in the long term...

It's not fair to dismiss someone's feelings just because it's "normal" behavior. 

Call her overly choosy, call her paranoid and insecure, those labels don't really mean much to a couple that just met. 

She has a choice between people who make her uncomfortable, and people who don't make her uncomfortable.

That's perfectly fair, but I thought I'd mention it since apparently her friends have hinted about her struggling to find a man. Might be related, might not.

I have glanced at other women on dates before and even when in a relationship myself, and it's not a conscious decision on my part at all. I do recognize it myself though, so when I become aware of it I pretend to look at something else. It's an annoying thing when it happens at the wrong time, but I really can't help it as it's not a conscious thing at all. But we're talking about a glance here, not staring. If someone stares they have more than enough time for the conscious part of the brain to kick in and take the reins.

[yogacat]

18 minutes ago, Sam1986 said:

That's perfectly fair, but I thought I'd mention it since apparently her friends have hinted about her struggling to find a man. Might be related, might not.

I have glanced at other women on dates before and even when in a relationship myself, and it's not a conscious decision on my part at all. I do recognize it myself though, so when I become aware of it I pretend to look at something else. It's an annoying thing when it happens at the wrong time, but I really can't help it as it's not a conscious thing at all. But we're talking about a glance here, not staring. If someone stares they have more than enough time for the conscious part of the brain to kick in and take the reins.

Yes, I understand.

One long-term ex that I was with for four years, sometimes when we'd go out if I saw a woman that was exceptionally attractive, I'd say "honey, isn't she pretty?"

But I trusted my ex implicitly and felt very secure with him so I think it's a bit different versus when two people are on a first, second, or third date with someone new. There isn't that foundation of trust and security yet.

And while it's not wrong to find someone attractive and acknowledge it, in the early stages of dating it's always nicer when the person you are on the date with instills a sense of feeling special and desired.

[Sindy_0311]

59 minutes ago, Sam1986 said:

Thats just you making a baseless claim on how you want the world to be. "High value men dont do X" is just a projection on how you want the world to be, not necessarily how it actually is. I have never cheated and consider myself a high value man (who doesnt?), but according to your strict definition, Im not.

If you want to seek out feedback that just supports your narrative of him being a potential cheating bastard, then by all means go ahead and seek that feedback, but I'm not trying to actively deceive you here. Im just telling it how it is, and the fact that you describe it here as a brief glance (not staring, that is something else entirely) that he apologized for as well, that speaks a lot about how mature he is in recognizing it.

If it was indeed just a quick glance (which he apologized for), I personally think that you are judging him very harshly here. And if this is a recurring pattern on your side (reacting harshly to small perceived slights), I'd be so bold as to say that he is probably the one who dodged a bullet here. Just curious - why do you think that this was a bad thing in? Is there anything that you are worried about?

Oh please… he raised his eyebrows and interrupted the conversation by completely turning his head at the point that I thought something bad happened behind me…. I can deal with men looking around, but not like that… and I didn’t say he was a cheater neither called you a love value man for glancing at other girls… HE embarrassed himself, and I have enough time on my hands to date other men that are more aligned to my values… but yes you are right, I’m choosy… 

[tattoobunnie]

Grown-arse men learn to not be obvious at all...you won't even notice.  Been married for 13+ years now...I have never once seen my hubs check out another woman, once, and I know he's not blind.

[LotusBlack]

4 hours ago, tattoobunnie said:

Grown-arse men learn to not be obvious at all...you won't even notice.  Been married for 13+ years now...I have never once seen my hubs check out another woman, once, and I know he's not blind.

👆🏼This, exactly.

Women have instincts too and naturally notice things as men do, but the number of women to notably ogle men is significantly smaller than men - so much so that society qualifies the act by saying “men are visual creatures” so people should more or less tolerate distasteful activity.

So, I don’t believe for one second that it is primal nature to leer at an attractive person; it is a choice to look at someone in such a way as to make them or others uncomfortable and if someone else notices the look, then it is clearly not discrete enough to be decent. The onus is on the “looker” to develop discretion so as not to make others feel a negative way about it. 

Sindy clearly recognised her date’s indiscreet leer and he was aware enough of it to state it was a bad habit he needed to correct, so clearly it is not a problem with Sindy’s view of it, but rather a problem with her date’s behaviour. 

[yogacat]

I'm of the mindset that if a very attractive women walks by, he might peek, you just won't see it. Y'all know what makes you blind. We aren't all blind just because we are being faithful. I recall my one female friend saying, oh, my boyfriend doesn't notice an attractive woman and clearly there have been 5-6 times throughout the years where I've noticed him doing so, she can be naive if she wants, he just doesn't do it in front of her ever.

[rainbowsandroses]

Bottom line, the way @Sindy_0311described it, it's just plain rude especially when it's during the first or second meet.  Whether true or not, it sends the message guy is more focused on his surroundings (noticing attractive women) than he is on YOU.  

If any man wants to justify it as a "boys will be boys" mentality then imo those men are simply being obtuse; again it's rude and not something an interested man with social awareness would do which is what @Sindy_0311and most healthy women want.   

Yes of course men will notice beautiful women, just as women notice beautiful men however again when you're on a first or second meet, it sends a very poor message to your date for reasons stated and frankly I do not know of any woman who would be Okay with such behavior on a first or second meet or ever for that matter, not the way Sindy described it.

Reflects lack of social awareness, proper manners and low character and class imo.

NEXT.

 

 

 

[Sindy_0311]

38 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

Whether true or not, it sends the message guy is more focused on his surroundings (noticing attractive women) than he is on YOU.  

True. I guess he wasn’t attracted enough to keep the focus on me… I don’t think he would have done the same while on a date with Scarlett Johansson 🤣

[Capricorn3]

5 hours ago, tattoobunnie said:

Grown-arse men learn to not be obvious at all...you won't even notice.  Been married for 13+ years now...I have never once seen my hubs check out another woman, once, and I know he's not blind.

^ Been married for a lifetime and I know my husband looks and sees ever female we pass, lol. But, we're also a rather weird couple whereby we actually point out good looking people to each other, lol. I say things like "wow, did you see that stunning woman!?" and his reply is always "yep", lol. Or if I see a rather gorgeous looking man and mention "wow, he's gorgeous", my husband always says "I'll buy him for you for Christmas" 😄

Men will always look.  Women look (I know I do). It's normal human reaction (imo).  Blatant staring?  Not so good. Wandering eye will always be there, but not being obvious about it.

[rainbowsandroses]

This wasn't a long standing RL, where a couple could tease each other about it, even pointing an attractive person out to the other.  There is trust and love already established so it's all in good fun.

In Sindy's case, it was the second meet.

[Capricorn3]

3 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

In Sindy's case, it was the second meet.

We're well aware of that - hence my saying:  " Blatant staring?  Not so good. Wandering eye will always be there, but not being obvious about it. "

[Jaunty]

I have a propensity sometimes to really stare at someone who is unique looking.   Once in an airport we passed a woman with a tremendously huge bottom and a minuscule waist,  she was wearing yoga pants and a tight top so it was all right out there.  She also had a pony tail on top of her head that hung down to below her large booty.   BOTH my partner and I practically gaped at her, we turned around as she passed us on the other side of the "people mover" so we could get a look at her from behind.  

I actually felt some shame for gawking at a woman, or let's say a PERSON, but my partner assured me that this lady was certainly prepared for that and more than likely enjoying that particular type of attention.  

[boltnrun]

1 hour ago, Sindy_0311 said:

True. I guess he wasn’t attracted enough to keep the focus on me… I don’t think he would have done the same while on a date with Scarlett Johansson 🤣

Please don't turn this around on yourself. That's a slippery slope into becoming morose and blaming yourself for not being "good enough". 

I was involved with a man who would literally turn his head around as far as he could to stare at women. He would even say "Look at that big t*tted one over there!" in a loud voice while continuing to stare. When I was sitting or standing right next to him. He did this too many times to count. And he was baffled when I dumped him for someone else 🙄

And yes, it is absolutely controllable. It's a choice, not a necessity. 

[Cherylyn]

How would I react?  I wouldn't react to him.  In my mind,  I wouldn't date him anymore.  A roving eye is not fine with me.  😒

Continue being very picky and choosy.  I am and it paid off.  I'm very happily married to an honorable man who knows how to behave with integrity.  This is the type of man worth waiting for.  Never settle for less. 

[rainbowsandroses]

3 hours ago, Sindy_0311 said:

True. I guess he wasn’t attracted enough to keep the focus on me… I don’t think he would have done the same while on a date with Scarlett Johansson 🤣

@Sindy_0311re bolded, so what if he wasn't?  You weren't all that attracted to him either from what you posted.  From what I read, I got the sense it simply didn't "click" for either of you so who really cares that he wasn't attracted enough?

I have had it happen to me and I wasn't all that "attracted to" him either and it had NOTHING to do with how attractive he was or him not being good enough.  And I assume it was the same way for him.

We simply didn't click and that's OKAY.  Neither of us felt that somethin somethin (chemistry) so chances are it would have been a next whether he gawked (um, looked or stared) at other women or not.   It just ended the meet faster.

For me, and in my experience, when a man is interested and is also socially aware (both of which are important to ME), he should not be doing any looking or staring, whether it's obvious or done more discreetly, his focus should be on ME as well as my focus should be on HIM during these early dates.

Even IF another hot guy walked by, when I am focused on a man and we're clicking and connecting, it wouldn't even occur to me to look at him let alone turn my head in front of my date and blatantly look.  Nor did my date when we were clicking and connecting.

It's rude and sends a very clear message of disinterest imo, again during these early dates.

Unless he did it intentionally to garner a reaction, in which case would also be a next. 

 

 

[LootieTootie]

5 hours ago, Sindy_0311 said:

True. I guess he wasn’t attracted enough to keep the focus on me… I don’t think he would have done the same while on a date with Scarlett Johansson 🤣

Well if it makes you feel any better, my husband loves Scarlett Johansson and even he knows not to leer or be obvious. He will probably keep doing lots of quick glances 😁

We have been together for a long time so we do point out an attractive woman to each other if the woman is stunning. Our stunners are always classy-dressed looking women! Not the type of women Jaunty described lol. Sometimes I even point out an attractive man to my husband and he just says "Tell me if he has a pretty female with him and I will look." LOL

[Wiseman2]

7 hours ago, Sindy_0311 said:

 I guess he wasn’t attracted enough to keep the focus on me… I don’t think he would have done the same while on a date with Scarlett Johansson..

Unfortunately he seems like a rude ogling boor. Sorry this happened.  This really has nothing to do with your level of attractiveness. 

He just has bad habits and bad manners on dates. Don't take it personally and work on your self respect and self image.  

[Batya33]

I don't think it matters at all how much a person is interested in the person they are with as far as whether that person will ogle another person blatantly.  If a person is not "that" into his or her date and didn't miss that day in kindergarten when basic manners were taught, he or she will behave appropriately - and will not "wander" in that blatant way while with the other person and if they feel like it that much they'll end the date early.  

I was once (over 20 years ago) on a mediocre first meet at a cafe that was very popular for first meets.  I noticed a man at another table checking me out- he was on a first meet or date.  I didn't stare at him.  Later he emailed me -said I'd contacted him on the dating site and he recognized me from the photos (I did not recognize him).  He said he wasn't going to see his date again (and my date emailed me that he wasn't interested in me lol).  So we went out a few times. 

I don't know -maybe I shouldn't have met a person who would be that rude and check out another woman but his reason was he was trying to figure out why I looked familiar (which I have done - a double take if someone looks familiar and I cannot place them).  

I don't think it's ever my job to hold someone's interest enough that they won't treat me disrespectfully.  

[rainbowsandroses]

15 hours ago, Sindy_0311 said:

I don’t think he would have done the same while on a date with Scarlett Johansson 🤣

@Sindy_0311

Consider changing this^ mindset to "I don't think he would have done same if we were clicking and connecting."

My experience but when two people are clicking and connecting, leering, looking, noticing other attractive people doesn't even enter their minds, they're too focused on each other to care.  This has been true for my date and myself especially early in when getting to know each other.

Again, nothing to do with how attractive you are or having the skills to "hold" his interest which is not what true chemistry between two people is about, imo..

Chalk this one up to "no click" and carry on.  I would. 

After my last breakup, I had been online dating until I met my new guy and was shocked at how many socially unaware people there are, people lacking basic human decency and courtesy let alone kindness.

Way more now than when I did OLDing in the past. Or maybe I was just more exposed to it since I had not met anyone special with whom there was that click.  And as such was interacting with and meeting more men.

I won't get into that, not my thread but it was a real eye opener.