Coffee with coworker

[kim42]

27 minutes ago, yogacat said:

I get that ALL the time. And I agree with their perception, not because I'm anxious or shy, rather, just how I am.

I think Kim's case she gave numerous indicators that she's romantically attracted and he's not biting.

I'm actually not sure if I gave any indicators that I'm interested in him. I mean, I always accept coffee suggestions from coworkers, or I say yes to lunch or an after-work thing (if I'm free), for me it's a polite thing to do at work.

[rainbowsandroses]

2 hours ago, Sindy_0311 said:

Just being curious… were you dating these guys? 

Yes!  It was many years ago when I was super shy and anxious, I was actually diagnosed with GAD at the time so I was anxious about everything!  

I was also, not proud to admit, quite entitled.  I fully expected men to chase me without me doing a damn thing but existing as I posted earlier.

There were two men that I recall who I really liked.  One I dated for 2-3 months (can't recall exactly it was many years ago) who ghosted me.  I was quite crushed.  But I let him go and a couple of months later, he reached out and we talked.

He admitted HE felt insecure because the vibe I had been giving him was of disinterest, so he stopped pursuing me.  He asked me out again at that time, but I had begun dating another man so declined.

Another man, a dentist, I also REALLY liked.  He also ghosted me for the same reason.  My girlfriend had set me up with him as he was a friend of her boyfriend's but I had such a sense of entitlement (again NOT proud to admit) that again I didn't feel I had to do ANYTHING but exist and he should continue pursuing me.

He told my girlfriend (who had set us up) that he could never get a good read on me for this reason and he stopped pursuing me.

And yes I did accept all his invites, I never flaked and we always had a great time on the date.  But other than that I made NO effort, and they needed that from me too, at least these men did. 

Anyway, since then, I got over my sense of entitlement (along with my shyness and anxiety) and realized that men need encouragement too, especially early stages, dating is not just about "men chase/women respond."  Both are equal participants and as such should show interest and make effort in different ways.

@LootieTootiesuggested you mention the group meet again in a casual way, but I am NOT even suggesting that.  Just simply be open and friendly when you see him, smile!!  

Nowadays, and not to brag but I cannot recall one man whom I have had an interest in who has not asked me out for a second date. 

When I am attracted to a man, he knows!  I don't throw myself at men or chase them, but I let them know in my own subtle way that I am attracted.  A look, smile.  

I have talked to men and the number one thing they look for is enthusiasm.  A woman's enthusiasm is all they need in many cases.

I had a date last Saturday and he asked me out again the following day.  He is very nice, successful and attractive but I am not romantically interested in him so declined.

Yesterday, a sales person from a deposition reporter's office came to our office and I was my open and friendly self and HE asked me out for lunch tomorrow.  He made a point to tell me it was not a "sales pitch," and we both laughed.

He's around 10 years younger than I (mid-20s) which is too young for me, so nothing will become of it, but my point is, if you do nothing, nothing is gonna happen.

That said, I just learned from others that you have been open and friendly and gave him indications of interest and he still hasn't budged, so again best to let it go.

Be professional at the office and that's it.

[Sindy_0311]

33 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

Yes!  It was many years ago when I was super shy and anxious, I was actually diagnosed with GAD at the time so I was anxious about everything!  

I was also, not proud to admit, quite entitled.  I fully expected men to chase me without me doing a damn thing but existing as I posted earlier.

There were two men that I recall who I really liked.  One I dated for 2-3 months (can't recall exactly it was many years ago) who ghosted me.  I was quite crushed.  But I let him go and a couple of months later, he reached out and we talked.

He admitted HE felt insecure because the vibe I had been giving him was of disinterest, so he stopped pursuing me.  He asked me out again at that time, but I had begun dating another man so declined.

Another man, a dentist, I also REALLY liked.  He also ghosted me for the same reason.  My girlfriend had set me up with him as he was a friend of her boyfriend's but I had such a sense of entitlement (again NOT proud to admit) that again I didn't feel I had to do ANYTHING but exist and he should continue pursuing me.

He told my girlfriend (who had set us up) that he could never get a good read on me for this reason and he stopped pursuing me.

Anyway, since then, I got over my sense of entitlement (along with my shyness and anxiety) and realized that men need encouragement too, especially early stages, dating is not just about "men chase/women respond."  Both are equal participants and as such should show interest and make effort in different ways.

@LootieTootiesuggested you mention the group meet again in a casual way, but I am NOT even suggesting that.  Just simply be open and friendly when you see him, smile!!  

Nowadays, and not to brag but I cannot recall one man whom I have had an interest in who has not asked me out for a second date.

I had a date last Saturday and he asked me out again the following day.  He is very nice, successful and attractive but I am not romantically interested in him so declined.

Yesterday, a sales person from a deposition reporter's office came to our office and I was my open and friendly self and HE asked me out for lunch tomorrow.  

He's around 10 years younger than I (mid-20s) which is too young for me, so nothing will become of it, but my point is, if you do nothing, nothing is gonna happen.

That said, I just learned from others that you have been open and friendly and gave him indications of interest and he still hasn't budged, so again best to let it go.

Be professional at the office and that's it.

Thank you for the reply. 

So basically these two men ghosted you, which to me speaks loud, they weren’t that invested either. IMO If they really liked you, they would have addressed your behavior or tried to peal the layers instead of ghosting you immaturely. And these two «high value» men (forgive my sarcasm) I assume you have been kissing them or maybe you even had sex with them. So yes, at this early stage, you showed a level of interest, and the only thing you could do it is exist… Their lack of curiosity/investment just emphasized the fact that they were not best for you…

According to Kim, I suggest she waits a bit longer… No need to push things at this point. 

[rainbowsandroses]

31 minutes ago, Sindy_0311 said:

IMO If they really liked you, they would have addressed your behavior or tried to peal the layers instead of ghosting you immaturely.

Yes I do agree with you and I brought that up when we talked again.  I asked them specifically why they did not speak with me about it and they admitted it was their insecurity and immaturity, so in retrospect I was probably better off without these guys anyway.  What they were doing was gameplaying and it kind of backfired because I never chased them after they ghosted nor did I agree to go out with either of them again, which they had wanted to do.

31 minutes ago, Sindy_0311 said:

No need to push things at this point. 

Sindy, I am really confused by this comment.  Do you really believe being open and friendly either in person or in text (like Kim just said they had been doing) is "pushing"?  How is it pushing, can you clarify?

I think at this point if she were to mention the group meet again, THAT might be considered pushing, but I fail to understand how being open and friendly and showing some enthusiasm (through emojis etc like HE has been doing) is pushing.

I am sorry but being "polite" (and nothing else) is a long road to never-never land IMO.

 

 

[LotusBlack]

21 minutes ago, Sindy_0311 said:

Thank you for the reply. 

So basically these two men ghosted you, which to me speaks loud, they weren’t that invested either. IMO If they really liked you, they would have addressed your behavior or tried to peal the layers instead of ghosting you immaturely. And these two «high value» men (forgive my sarcasm) I assume you have been kissing them or maybe you even had sex with them. So yes, at this early stage, you showed a level of interest, and the only thing you could do it is exist… Their lack of curiosity/investment just emphasized the fact that they were not best for you…

According to Kim, I suggest she waits a bit longer… No need to push things at this point. 

I think this is a bit of a rough and presumptuous assumption. I went on a first meet about a week ago and the guy asked me out again and said he could usually get a pretty good read on whether a woman was interested in him or not but with me he couldn’t (that was because I was undecided about my level of interest as well). So, although this guy did voice that at the time - to his credit - a lot of men do in fact feel uncertain and apprehensive. Rainbow gave an uninterested vibe despite her actual interest and the men could only work with what she gave them, so they cut their losses.

Historically, men have been tasked with the role of getting the women but I think this has been disproportionately imbalanced and unfair. I think it is equal responsibility of both parties to be clear and open about their interest and intention.

[kim42]

21 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

Yes!  It was many years ago when I was super shy and anxious, I was actually diagnosed with GAD at the time so I was anxious about everything!  

I was also, not proud to admit, quite entitled.  I fully expected men to chase me without me doing a damn thing but existing as I posted earlier.

There were two men that I recall who I really liked.  One I dated for 2-3 months (can't recall exactly it was many years ago) who ghosted me.  I was quite crushed.  But I let him go and a couple of months later, he reached out and we talked.

He admitted HE felt insecure because the vibe I had been giving him was of disinterest, so he stopped pursuing me.  He asked me out again at that time, but I had begun dating another man so declined.

Another man, a dentist, I also REALLY liked.  He also ghosted me for the same reason.  My girlfriend had set me up with him as he was a friend of her boyfriend's but I had such a sense of entitlement (again NOT proud to admit) that again I didn't feel I had to do ANYTHING but exist and he should continue pursuing me.

He told my girlfriend (who had set us up) that he could never get a good read on me for this reason and he stopped pursuing me.

Anyway, since then, I got over my sense of entitlement (along with my shyness and anxiety) and realized that men need encouragement too, especially early stages, dating is not just about "men chase/women respond."  Both are equal participants and as such should show interest and make effort in different ways.

@LootieTootiesuggested you mention the group meet again in a casual way, but I am NOT even suggesting that.  Just simply be open and friendly when you see him, smile!!  

Nowadays, and not to brag but I cannot recall one man whom I have had an interest in who has not asked me out for a second date.

I had a date last Saturday and he asked me out again the following day.  He is very nice, successful and attractive but I am not romantically interested in him so declined.

Yesterday, a sales person from a deposition reporter's office came to our office and I was my open and friendly self and HE asked me out for lunch tomorrow.  He made a point to tell me it was not a "sales pitch," and we both laughed.

He's around 10 years younger than I (mid-20s) which is too young for me, so nothing will become of it, but my point is, if you do nothing, nothing is gonna happen.

That said, I just learned from others that you have been open and friendly and gave him indications of interest and he still hasn't budged, so again best to let it go.

Be professional at the office and that's it.

As I said, I'm not sure I gave him indications of interest, from my point of view I didn't do anything that could indicate clear interest, apart from being friendly. 

The thing is that there is a very little chance that I'll just see him at the office because most people work from home, and go to the office only a few times per month.

Anyway, it's interesting to read about different opinions and experiences.

 

[LotusBlack]

13 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

Yes I do agree with you and I brought that up when we talked again.  I asked them specifically why they did not speak with me about it and they admitted it was their insecurity and immaturity, so in retrospect I was probably better off without these guys anyway.  What they were doing was a game and it kind of backfired because I never chased them after they ghosted nor did I agree to go out with either of them again, which they had wanted to do.

If they admitted they were insecure and immature then that is how they feel; however, I don’t think that they were necessarily playing games or were actually insecure/ immature. They might have felt your level of apparent disinterest was a red flag they didn’t want to exhaust any more energy on. Additionally, whilst ghosting is never great, they likely felt contact (even to say they didn’t want to pursue anything further with you) would be unwarranted - perhaps even unwelcome - given your seeming disinterest. Conversely, by the same token that you were better off without them, they were better off without you at that time given your anxiety and shyness which led them to misunderstand your interest level. You have now grown and would no longer present as a red flag in that area and perhaps they are different now too.

[rainbowsandroses]

12 minutes ago, LotusBlack said:

Rainbow gave an uninterested vibe despite her actual interest and the men could only work with what she gave them, so they cut their losses.

This is true, however Sindy does have a point too because we had been dating a while so to just ghost instead of communicating with me how they felt would have been the better course of action.

But I dunno how realistic that is, I do think many people "test" people when they feel insecure versus direct communication.  Perhaps it feels too vulnerable to communicate insecure feelings, again I don't really know.  Different people will have different reactions.

But you are absolutely right I was very interested, especially the dentist my girlfriend fixed me up with yet I did NOTHING to indicate my interest other than accept his invites, which were dinners, concerts, etc.

Which as many of us know, women will sometimes do whether they have an interest or not.  So men are often at a loss of knowing how to proceed sometimes.

That's why these days, I make sure to give plenty of IOIs and I participate in the process in my own quiet subtle way so a man KNOWS.

I also have TONS more confidence and no longer anxious and shy which helps too!!

 

 

 

[rainbowsandroses]

7 minutes ago, LotusBlack said:

If they admitted they were insecure and immature then that is how they feel; however, I don’t think that they were necessarily playing games or were actually insecure/ immature. They might have felt your level of apparent disinterest was a red flag they didn’t want to exhaust any more energy on.

That is a really great way of putting it, much more positive than the typical narrative of "gameplaying."  And it makes A LOT of sense too.

Thanks!   I have a fair amount of experience, but I am still learning!  And this was a gem IMO.

 

[yogacat]

1 hour ago, kim42 said:

I'm actually not sure if I gave any indicators that I'm interested in him. I mean, I always accept coffee suggestions from coworkers, or I say yes to lunch or an after-work thing (if I'm free), for me it's a polite thing to do at work.

Right. He is asking you out at work and because you are new. Guys flirt at work for a lot of different reasons, and you may be right that he was just being polite or friendly, but he did ask for your number and reached out again. He could just be looking for a new friend or networking, but he could also be interested in getting to know you personally. I think if he were to ask you go out one-on-one, that would be a clearer indication of his intentions.

But for now, just enjoy getting to know him, go out for drinks with his team, and see where things go. I wouldn't read too much into his messages, just take them as friendly conversation for now. If he continues to ask you to hang out outside of work, or if he starts flirting more, then you can reassess.

[LotusBlack]

29 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

This is true, however Sindy does have a point too because we had been dating a while so to just ghost instead of communicating with me how they felt would have been the better course of action.

I agree that they should have discussed it with you, particularly if you had been dating a while; however, to play devil’s advocate for a minute - you had been dating a while yet you were still at that level of anxiousness and shyness despite this. You could have also communicated with them that you suffered from such extreme levels of it as to impact how people perceived you - even after dating for some time. So, to this end, I think you equally matched these men’s level of insecurity. Of course, you are self aware enough to recognise that now and to have worked on and grown from those insecurities.

OP- Kim, as I have said in your other threads, so much can be avoided just by direct, clear communication. In your shoes, I’d send him a message/email to again thank him for reaching out to you to grab coffee and that it would be great to go out for those drinks with your colleagues and then perhaps suggest a potential time/date if it is convenient for everyone else. By suggesting a time it then leaves no room for ambiguity. He follows it up with a positive response or a negative/vague/non-committal response. Either way, you understand where you stand. It also doesn’t expose you in any kind of vulnerable way romantically speaking, and would, in fact, be a great way for you to meet some co-workers and network/build friendships.

[Sindy_0311]

46 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

  How is it pushing, can you clarify?

I was referring to send him a text for the after work. 

 

22 minutes ago, LotusBlack said:

I’d send him a message/email to again thank him for reaching out to you to grab coffee and that it would be great to go out for those drinks with your colleagues and then perhaps suggest a potential time/date if it is convenient for everyone else.

I disagree. If I understood well, Kim doesn’t know the other coworkers that well, and she is invited to join for the next after work they will plan. Not her job to arrange anything… is that correct kim? 

[Sindy_0311]

47 minutes ago, kim42 said:

As I said, I'm not sure I gave him indications of interest, from my point of view I didn't do anything that could indicate clear interest, apart from being friendly. 

Maybe next time you could try strong and long eye contact, touch his arm while laughing, give a compliment or two… play with your lips while watching his, touch your hair, let him see you neck by tilting your head a bit on the side, caress your arm with one hand while listening to him,  tease him a bit and be slightly flirty… these are great signs of interest while interacting with someone. I don’t think you need to do more… it’s all body language. 

[kim42]

3 minutes ago, Sindy_0311 said:

Maybe next time you could try strong and long eye contact, touch his arm while laughing, give a compliment or two… play with your lips while watching his, touch your hair, let him see you neck by tilting your head a bit on the side, caress your arm with one hand while listening to him,  tease him a bit and be slightly flirty… these are great signs of interest while interacting with someone. I don’t think you need to do more… it’s all body language. 

Yes but he's still a coworker so I have to take that into account and be cautious with physical contact.

[kim42]

17 minutes ago, Sindy_0311 said:

I was referring to send him a text for the after work. 

 

I disagree. If I understood well, Kim doesn’t know the other coworkers that well, and she is invited to join for the next after work they will plan. Not her job to arrange anything… is that correct kim? 

I don't know anyone from his team, just him.

[Wiseman2]

Just now, kim42 said:

Yes but he's still a coworker so I have to take that into account and be cautious with physical contact.

Agree. The coffee was only two weeks ago and he has your information so when they decide to go out you'll probably hear from him. They may only go out every so often.

Agree that when you do go out, please don't drape yourself all over him with touching or lip licking or hair twirling and other regrettable embarrassing behavior.

Just have fun with the group. He doesn't need a neon sign that says "I'm available". That's for dates not outing with coworkers along. 

[Sindy_0311]

4 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

He doesn't need a neon sign that says "I'm available". That's for dates not outing with coworkers along. 

I think we are having an issue here 😁 How can she give him a green light then?

[Sindy_0311]

11 minutes ago, kim42 said:

Yes but he's still a coworker so I have to take that into account and be cautious with physical contact.

Slightly touching arm while laughing is not forbidden that I know, but it works very well to show someone you appreciate them. It’s IMO the best way to break the physical barrier on a date, especially with a coworker. It’s not aggressive, discret and most important: non sexual… 

[boltnrun]

Just now, Sindy_0311 said:

It’s IMO the best way to break the physical barrier on a date,

But they aren't going on a date. It's a get together with a group of coworkers.

I would feel extremely uncomfortable if a coworker placed his hand on any part of my body or if he touched his lips while staring at my lips. Even if I had up to that point found him intriguing, that would turn me right off. 

Kim, I think you have the right mindset. The world won't end if a week or two goes by before you see this coworker friend again. 

[rainbowsandroses]

33 minutes ago, Sindy_0311 said:

Maybe next time you could try strong and long eye contact, touch his arm while laughing, give a compliment or two… play with your lips while watching his, touch your hair, let him see you neck by tilting your head a bit on the side, caress your arm with one hand while listening to him,  tease him a bit and be slightly flirty…

I dunno, some of that seems really contrived to me @Sindy_0311.  The bolded particularly.  I don't do any of that.  It simply wouldn't feel natural for me to behave that way and as such would probably come off forced and awkward.

I guess for me, most of how I indicate interest comes naturally when I am really into a guy, it's nothing I really even have to think about.   I do maintain good eye contact and I the way I look at him, I think he just knows.  

It's subtle!  Like we might move closer to each other, begin mirroring each other, it's a vibe mostly.  I used to not be aware of that vibe and again sometimes gave off an air of standoffishness which is really a shyness.

But in short, I think being open, friendly and engaging with good eye contact, a smile and a man will know, he will FEEL it if, we both will.

But here?  Since you are co-workers @kim42and going out in a group with other co-workers I don't recommend any of those overt signs of interest.  You can be playful, friendly and engaging but I do not recommend any touching until it's just you and him together outside the office ON A DATE and only if YOU feel comfortable with it otherwise again it might come off forced, phony and contrived..

 

 

[kim42]

4 minutes ago, Sindy_0311 said:

Slightly touching arm while laughing is not forbidden that I know, but it works very well to show someone you appreciate them. It’s IMO the best way to break the physical barrier on a date, especially with a coworker. It’s not aggressive, discret and most important: non sexual… 

I'm not saying touching a man's arm is sexual but I don't think it's appropriate with a coworker that I have seen only once. It's too soon to break physical barriers, at least for me.

[kim42]

1 hour ago, LotusBlack said:

I agree that they should have discussed it with you, particularly if you had been dating a while; however, to play devil’s advocate for a minute - you had been dating a while yet you were still at that level of anxiousness and shyness despite this. You could have also communicated with them that you suffered from such extreme levels of it as to impact how people perceived you - even after dating for some time. So, to this end, I think you equally matched these men’s level of insecurity. Of course, you are self aware enough to recognise that now and to have worked on and grown from those insecurities.

OP- Kim, as I have said in your other threads, so much can be avoided just by direct, clear communication. In your shoes, I’d send him a message/email to again thank him for reaching out to you to grab coffee and that it would be great to go out for those drinks with your colleagues and then perhaps suggest a potential time/date if it is convenient for everyone else. By suggesting a time it then leaves no room for ambiguity. He follows it up with a positive response or a negative/vague/non-committal response. Either way, you understand where you stand. It also doesn’t expose you in any kind of vulnerable way romantically speaking, and would, in fact, be a great way for you to meet some co-workers and network/build friendships.

Yes, I have been practicing direct communication with other men and it has helped a lot. I have stopped posting in my other thread but I still appreciate your advice!

[catfeeder]

1 hour ago, kim42 said:

I'm not saying touching a man's arm is sexual but I don't think it's appropriate with a coworker that I have seen only once. It's too soon to break physical barriers, at least for me.

I hear, and I agree with you that there is no need for urgency here. The context of this your job. Your work place. Your career and livelihood. I can appreciate putting professionalism above assertiveness in this case. If there is anything beyond a work buddy to be developed here, I credit you both for recognizing that in due course. So glad you shared this and met him.

[Batya33]

2 hours ago, Sindy_0311 said:

Slightly touching arm while laughing is not forbidden that I know, but it works very well to show someone you appreciate them. It’s IMO the best way to break the physical barrier on a date, especially with a coworker. It’s not aggressive, discret and most important: non sexual… 

My then extremely shy husband asked me out the first time after meeting me 3 times over 8 months at huge work events (same large company, different departments and floors of the office building) because he said I did that -touched his arm - I barely remembered doing that! We'd been having maybe a 15 minute conversation standing by the bar in a gorgeous hotel ballroom (which was part of what we were talking about) and he was wearing a suit- meaning if I touched his arm it was on his suit jacket not skin LOL.

But that and a pep talk on a conference call from his friends -gave him the courage to ask me to lunch during the work day -which I didn't actually know he meant as a date.  He is still more on the reserved/quiet side but he grew out of his shyness that he had in his mid-late 20s when we first met in the mid 90s.  I'll also add -at that company - there was  tons of hooking up and affairs going on so especially at a work event and back then -touching someone's arm would have been totally fine.  

[LotusBlack]

4 hours ago, Sindy_0311 said:

I was referring to send him a text for the after work. 

 

I disagree. If I understood well, Kim doesn’t know the other coworkers that well, and she is invited to join for the next after work they will plan. Not her job to arrange anything… is that correct kim? 

This isn’t about it being anyone’s “job”. It’s simply about getting to know her new colleagues and taking the initiative to integrate since there may be an opportunity for it. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. It isn’t offensive in any way for Kim to bring it up and make plans since she got the idea from her colleague. She doesn’t have to do anything, though, if she’d prefer not to. But nor is it wrong to initiate a get-together to meet colleagues and make friends; there’s no rule against Kim inviting the others out. I’d consider it to be a very friendly and lovely thing to do if I were one of her colleagues. 

But, each to their own and we can agree to disagree. 🙂