What’s next?

[Capricorn3]

3 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

She probably was trying to be diplomatic and just listen rather than say anything given that she saw you and your daughter first hand and the cursing and screaming she overheard. So she's probably a bit gun shy after that to say anything to you.

She may also not want to infantilize or coddle you and play doctor.

That fact that she just listened without commentary is a great sign of empathy. So it's  probably just another cultural misunderstanding. Or more things wrong with her as the collection of complaints you have keeps growing.

^ I second this post in its entirety. Totally nailed it (imo).

OP, the more you post the more one gets the impression that you're almost looking for an excuse to end things - or almost hoping she will end it. That way you can say "I told you so. I knew she wasn't into me".

When I see your mind-set ...:

*" I shake my head at what I suspect I concoct in my own head.

 * I think I create things in my head based on fears I get or anxiety that I feel… 

* I really wanted to say to her, “are we in a good place? Are you struggling with anything related to us?  But I refrained from doing that, because she seemed so stable, and in a reasonably good place. 

 * Me on the other hand, I have no idea what to think, or to expect, and there’s a good chance I’ve created all this doubt in my head.

 * I’m so hyper sensitive from past experiences that I can’t even acknowledge that things are going reasonably well".

^ It sounds exhausting, and dare I say, will one day end in self-fulfilling prophecy.  The writing is on the wall. I almost feel bad for this woman - at times it seems she'll always be in a catch 22 situation. Damned if she does/damned if she doesn't.  Can't win, no matter what she does.

What happens next will depend entirely on how much you concoct in your own head. How much you will see things which really aren't there. How much you will read into things which really are nothing. Etc etc.

 

[MissCanuck]

5 hours ago, Whirling D said:

I really wanted to say to her, “are we in a good place? Are you struggling with anything related to us?  But I refrained from doing that

Good. 

Repeatedly seeking reassurance, especially so early in, is annoying and tiresome. 

[Batya33]

4 hours ago, Capricorn3 said:

^ I second this post in its entirety. Totally nailed it (imo).

OP, the more you post the more one gets the impression that you're almost looking for an excuse to end things - or almost hoping she will end it. That way you can say "I told you so. I knew she wasn't into me".

When I see your mind-set ...:

*" I shake my head at what I suspect I concoct in my own head.

 * I think I create things in my head based on fears I get or anxiety that I feel… 

* I really wanted to say to her, “are we in a good place? Are you struggling with anything related to us?  But I refrained from doing that, because she seemed so stable, and in a reasonably good place. 

 * Me on the other hand, I have no idea what to think, or to expect, and there’s a good chance I’ve created all this doubt in my head.

 * I’m so hyper sensitive from past experiences that I can’t even acknowledge that things are going reasonably well".

^ It sounds exhausting, and dare I say, will one day end in self-fulfilling prophecy.  The writing is on the wall. I almost feel bad for this woman - at times it seems she'll always be in a catch 22 situation. Damned if she does/damned if she doesn't.  Can't win, no matter what she does.

What happens next will depend entirely on how much you concoct in your own head. How much you will see things which really aren't there. How much you will read into things which really are nothing. Etc etc.

 

Agree with all of this.  Perhaps you came across too as distant/cold not asking her more about the suspicious lump she found and the tests she will be getting?

I agree on the likely reason she didn't follow up much on the teenager.  I was accused on a second date once of being uncaring because he shared he'd recently been laid off from a high level position (we worked in same industry) and because I didn't want to pry -I knew of others in his position -and knew he was ok financially, etc I didn't stay on that topic.  Later in the evening he said he was hurt that I hadn't.  ........(he turned out to be very insecure and acted out on that in a deal breaker way so there was only one more date).

[rainbowsandroses]

4 hours ago, Batya33 said:

Perhaps you came across too as distant/cold not asking her more about the suspicious lump she found and the tests she will be getting?

This^ could very well be true and IF this is how she truly felt/feels, and she was put off by it, and now "punishing" him (my wording Bat, not yours) by choosing to respond indifferently to HIS sitch with his daughter and in other ways (not responding to messages, having a "take it or leave it" attitude etc at least according to how HE perceives her words and behavior), then it's just one more reason why they're all wrong for each other imho. 

T*t for tat ways of responding and interacting are never good and in fact tend to create more emotional distance.

One could also surmise IF she was put off by his attitude about her lump, then she's guilty of the same thing Whirling is being accused of - overreacting - at least in part. 

Perhaps it's possible Whirling simply didn't want to pry, which I think is actually what he posted. Not at all that he didn't/doesn't care.

In any event, our dear Whirling may very well have serious issues re attachment and relationships and that is why he perceives things the way he does OR he perceives it accurately and she's fading out.

We just don't know and imo I don't think it's helpful to him to suggest he is perceiving things incorrectly due to his anxiety and insecurity, causing him to question and doubt his own perception and reality.  That's bound to make him feel more crazy and confused than he otherwise feels now.  

Again, it's all speculation, we just don't know.

Bottom line, this relationship is clearly making him feel like crap (lately more times than not) and after only 10 weeks, may be time to wish each other well and go separate ways and continue therapy.

No one's to blame, they just don't mesh. 

JMO as always and Whirling whatever you decide, wish you the best mate. 

[MissCanuck]

7 hours ago, Batya33 said:

Perhaps you came across too as distant/cold not asking her more about the suspicious lump she found and the tests she will be getting?

I strongly suspect this has something to do with it. 

D, you wanted and expected reassurance and soothing from her about teen trouble, and yet you seemed to brush off some potentialy life-changing testing she has to undergo? 

If the man I were dating knew about this and didn't seem able to recognize why I might be feeling off or unsettled (without assuming it was a relationship problem and in turn seeking reassurance from me) I would be seriously questioning his ability to be a present and giving partner. 

[bluecastle]

Sorry you're struggling and doubting things again. 

It seems to me that this happens whenever there is any deviation on her end from the super duper lovey dovey and you-laudatory stuff that came on strong out of the gates, escalated to professions in of love after a few dates, and settled into a routine of morning and evening talks. Understandable. Those are powerful intoxicants. 

But they are also not the same thing as a powerful connection, or a sustainable mode of communication, no different than how a diet of only candy, sweet as candy is, cannot sustain a human.

If the most interesting thing about another person is that they make us feel over the moon, not alone, validated, reassured, and so on—well, that's kind of a form of self-interest rather than interest in another. And when that surfaces as the primary point of connection, as is common in dating, it's often when things fizzle out because the there, so to speak, was not quite there. 

Is that happening? I don't know. What's clear is that you are frequently thrown by this experiment in romance, and at some point you'll have to figure out if what you're seeking is something that creates a sense of calm and curiosity or something else. 

[Whirling D]

1 hour ago, bluecastle said:

Sorry you're struggling and doubting things again. 

It seems to me that this happens whenever there is any deviation on her end from the super duper lovey dovey and you-laudatory stuff that came on strong out of the gates, escalated to professions in of love after a few dates, and settled into a routine of morning and evening talks. Understandable. Those are powerful intoxicants. 

But they are also not the same thing as a powerful connection, or a sustainable mode of communication, no different than how a diet of only candy, sweet as candy is, cannot sustain a human.

If the most interesting thing about another person is that they make us feel over the moon, not alone, validated, reassured, and so on—well, that's kind of a form of self-interest rather than interest in another. And when that surfaces as the primary point of connection, as is common in dating, it's often when things fizzle out because the there, so to speak, was not quite there. 

Is that happening? I don't know. What's clear is that you are frequently thrown by this experiment in romance, and at some point you'll have to figure out if what you're seeking is something that creates a sense of calm and curiosity or something else. 

You are so right, blue, thank you.
 

I do like her. She’s a decent, hard-working, successful lady. I find her pretty, and engaging, and easy to talk with about just about anything… Of course, except for hair, old houses, and religion? 🙂

I’ve been kind of depressed for the last few days, and it’s because I feel that something may be changing. The DBT skills that I kind of see in a small way suggest looking at what is fact, and what is in my head… You kind of laid it out for me.

I think we both started by thinking that we were going to change each others lives, and as everyone has said, that’s kind of a fantasy.

Now, that seems to be kind of passing by, because we are both seeing that beyond that glass mirror, there is a whole other scene.  I like that scene, I’m just not entirely convinced she will, or does.

But if I use the DBT skills… Here are the facts. Her and I are still talking morning and night. Is it all lovey-dovey? Not even close. Is it still very friendly and interested and engaging? Kind of. If it wasn’t for me. It seems to be all my problems that are coming to the surface. My inability to relax with what is. My considerable anxious attachment style, wondering if the bottom is going to fall out at any moment. 

All of the mental health theory says that they shouldn’t be things that are terrible flaws, but just understandable characteristics of someone who has come along the paths that I have walked, whatever that means. Dr. lady seems to relate well when I tell her the stories. She has her own stories. However, where I start to falter is when I feel that maybe I’ve been too dark and needy, although I haven’t really shown that  much neediness, at least to her directly. Yes, we’ve talked a lot about things, but we’ve had way more fun and spent way more time doing other things than we have talking about needy things. 
 

It’s likely that we have just fallen into a routine as a couple, as likely a lot of couples do. But I keep looking at the things that indicate that maybe it’s falling further than that, and that’s when I start getting really anxious.

I talked with my therapist this morning, and she was very encouraging… She likely said things that many of you would say… “What’s the big deal if she wants you to look differently for a professional outing? Why wouldn’t you say to her that you would do anything to make her happy?“ Well, I kind of did say that, but not in a hugely convincing way… Almost in a begrudging way. 

There is still part of me that wonders why anybody would ask me to do something like that, knowing how I want to be in the world, and what my value is… My value is to accept people for how they are, and not try to change them based on external factors. That’s really important to me. I would never ask her to do that, and most of the day I’ve been really depressed, trying to figure out how to manage that value and how it clashes with hers, and most other people. Does it mean because my value is different than many other people that I should be changing that value to meet the needs of others? My therapist said I could only answer that by deciding whether I want to make her happy by making the small changes on her behalf. I already did say that I would do that,  but it also bothers me that I would even have to. It’s not in my wheelhouse to ask others to change in situations like that. I would expect them to be who they are, and if I didn’t like it, I had to either deal with it or step out. I would have almost expected the same for her.  It’s hard for me to manage that not everybody feels the same way. I just don’t know how to figure that out.
 

So, I don’t blame her for how she feels about something… But maybe I do. Might’ve been my therapist said that I’m judging her for the same things that I think she’s judging me for it… And that’s an inability to see something that’s a different and adapt to it. Maybe she’s right. Not sure.

All I know is that I’ve been depressed with this feeling that things have been going downhill, when the facts don’t  entirely support it… 

And then I thought maybe I was feeling down because I hadn’t had coffee as much, so I went out and drink coffee earlier today and I almost felt better immediately. Then there’s that.

then there’s this passive aggressive, feeling that I have that tells me not to contact her tonight and let her be the next one to reach out to me, and see what happens. For all I know, I could probably go most of the weekend and she wouldn’t get in contact with me, and then I’d probably even feel worse. The only alternative would be for me to reach out to her, which is what I’ve done every morning and every evening, sometimes at her request. However, letting her reach out to me this weekend could be one strategy just leaving her be and letting her go and see if she eventually reaches out. Does that seem too passive aggressive?   

[Wiseman2]

18 minutes ago, Whirling D said:

 letting her reach out to me this weekend could be one strategy just leaving her be and letting her go and see if she eventually reaches out. 

Are you both busy this weekend? For example you have custody and gigs and she's going away to her beach house with family?  It probably doesn't matter who calls who first.  You both seem to enjoy staying in touch a couple times a day. It's not going to prove or disprove anything if you disrupt the routine. .

[MrMan1983]

50 minutes ago, Whirling D said:

There is still part of me that wonders why anybody would ask me to do something like that, knowing how I want to be in the world, and what my value is…

Didn’t she just suggest maybe putting your hair up for a formal work do? What’s the huge deal? Not like she’s asking you to cut it off. Obviously if it started off a slippery slope of her trying to change loads about you then fair enough, not good, but at least to me it sounds fairly trivial and sounds like it would be a very rare occasion. 

[catfeeder]

30 minutes ago, Whirling D said:

Does it mean because my value is different than many other people that I should be changing that value to meet the needs of others?

I dunno. I love my flip-flops. I wouldn't wear them to a funeral. I don't wear them to the office. For whom am I making such changes?

I love my hair down, but for the beach or an outside BBQ it would make me sweat. So I'll put it up in a bun or pony tail. For whom am I making that change?

When it come to making a small, practical and temporary adjustment, it might be helpful to try out a reverse argument. Try taking the other side. Try defending why someone would NOT feel so offended by that. Why might it be simple and straightforward to someone and with zero emotional charge?

See if you can teach yourself to view it through a less emotional lens? This doesn't mean you must agree with your arguments, it's just about taking some of the charge out of the topic so you can avoid flooding.

I mean, we're not talking surgery here. We're not even talking about a haircut. Do you think maybe there was a time in grade school when you felt humiliated by a teacher telling you to lose your chewing gum? Or something?

Quote

My therapist said I could only answer that by deciding whether I want to make her happy by making the small changes on her behalf. I already did say that I would do that,  but it also bothers me that I would even have to.

You don't 'have to'. There are alternatives, like not going, which would remove the whole argument. Another would be to stand on that hill and refuse.

You get to decide your own goal in this instance. If it's to be right, then there you are. If it's to make her happy, you'll only defeat your own goal, anyway, if you're resentful about it--that makes NObody happy.

So play with reverse arguing or any other technique your therapist might assign, and learn more about why your position feels so emotional to you, and whether you CAN actually own more control over that emotion--or not.

You don't need to report any of this to us. Just stay with it internally and decide whether YOU are controlling IT, or IT is controlling you. And how you feel about that--and how you want to feel.

[MrMan1983]

1 hour ago, Whirling D said:

The only alternative would be for me to reach out to her, which is what I’ve done every morning and every evening, sometimes at her request.

I can’t see much negative coming from giving each other some breathing space and letting her contact you sometimes whirling, having to talk every single morning and evenings sets a president that you will have to do that forever too. You need to give each other a chance to miss each other sometimes (not in a passive aggressive way though). 

[Whirling D]

29 minutes ago, MrMan1983 said:

I can’t see much negative coming from giving each other some breathing space and letting her contact you sometimes whirling, having to talk every single morning and evenings sets a president that you will have to do that forever too. You need to give each other a chance to miss each other sometimes (not in a passive aggressive way though). 

Well, that’s almost exactly what I’m trying to wrap my head around… We didn’t say the usual “OK, I’ll talk to you tonight” so, I could conceivably just give her some space to have her weekend on her own terms…
 

That would come with added feature of getting a sense as to whether or not, she might be struggling with something, because if I don’t hear from her at all, that would pretty much almost guarantee that something is changing. What it is, that’s changing I don’t really know. It might not be anything relevant. So in that regard, it may not accomplish anything by not reaching out to her tonight.

A few weeks ago, there would be no question. We would talk on a night like tonight. That was almost a given. in fact, up until a couple of weeks ago, she probably would’ve called me on her way home from work on a night like tonight, when she knows we won’t see each other, but she has a 45 minute ride home from work. She also likely has a ride for an hour up to the beach house, if she goes tonight… So maybe I’ll hear from her later. Somehow, I get the sneaking feeling that I won’t. If I don’t text her or call her, I get this feeling I’m not gonna hear from her. That’s gonna make me even more anxious. But why wouldn’t I hear from her, given that we typically talk almost every day multiple times? That I can’t say. 

She would constantly say that she really enjoys talking to me and it’s important to her that we talk. It seemed to me that she almost kind of needed the company. I was OK with that, because I kind of felt the same way. That’s a bit of a codependency, but I don’t even mind that, as long as we are enjoying each other’s company, which we have been.

so, I don’t know which way to go with that… Don’t contact her tonight and let her have the night to herself without bothering her, or at least reaching out and saying hi and tell her I hope she has a nice trip if she goes tonight or tomorrow morning. Just don’t know which one of those to do. The fact that I’m struggling over it it’s kind of silly, but I am. 

To answer wise’s question, she’s definitely going up to her beach house, either tonight if she has the energy, or tomorrow morning… She will meet a friend from the area up there, and I don’t recall how long the friend will stay. It might be until Sunday morning.

I didn’t know she was going up there until last night, and I’m happy for her, because I know how much being up there means to her. I do feel a little envious, cause I’d love to be up there. But I have the kid here.

I don’t know if I’ve mentioned that things went downhill in a terrible way last night with my kid, I guess I didn’t tell you guys that… I didn’t really talk much about it with her this morning, and she did lend a bit of empathy that she knew I was struggling with it a bit and knew it was hard for me. I told her I didn’t wanna drag her into that and I just wanted to talk with her and I tried to stay away from that topic, knowing that the daughter issue is still a little bit of a white elephant.

I know I shouldn’t be beating myself up over this, but I’m just not sure that I haven’t complicated things with the hair conversation, or her coming down to the house last weekend. I thought we had a great time down here, but her now making it clear she doesn’t really care for my place might still be evidence to her that we are not moving in the same direction. 

And to finish off the hair thing… I don’t think I was ever conveying to her that I would never try to clean up for official professional engagements. I think I may have just articulated fairly clearly that it seemed rather judgmental for her to even ask. I didn’t say those words, but that may be the message that she got. I think that would be a reasonable message. Because in my gut of guts, I don’t think people should expect others to try to measure up to our preconceived notion of what we want to make us feel comfortable. That’s just my thought on it. But I’m not her. She probably felt that I judged her a little bit, and perhaps that’s true. Maybe it’s deserved.  She said it sounded like I was being a little self-centered by not being willing to make changes to make others feel less likely to judge us, and I kind of turned it back around, in a fairly slick way, to indicate that I shouldn’t need to worry about that, since if the others judge me solely by what I look like that’s more of a reflection of their character, I have no interest in them.  At that particular time, I don’t think she was buying that. Maybe she felt judged, I don’t know. I can’t carry her weight for her. 

I’m probably repeating myself, but it was well after that conversation, if I’m not mistaken, that she said, she was satisfied with how the conversation ended, which is that I clearly said to her, that I would be willing to do whatever it took to make her happy under such occasions.

I’m just not entirely sure that she hasn’t carried that conversation home with her, and that’s why we haven’t spoken at all today, other than on the phone this morning. That’s becoming less and less, it seems. I don’t think there ever would have been a day two weeks ago that I wouldn’t have sent her a picture of something, or she wouldn’t have texted randomly to ask me how my day was. Don’t know if that’s a sign of anything or not. May not be, but it is making me a little anxious. 

but I know I’m repeating myself.

I certainly wouldn’t want to annoy her by not following our traditions and checking in tonight. Do you think there’s a danger of me getting on her nerves or making her annoyed if she thinks I’m playing games with her, which sadly, might be true?

I was even watching a video the other day when the psychologist was saying that it can be destructive when avoidants do things like that… They don’t call when they should just to see what the other person will do, or they don’t answer texts right away just to see what kind of response they will get. The psychologist called that potentially destructive.

In that context, if I didn’t contact her tonight, that would stick out a little bit and perhaps make her feel like I’m making a statement, or something might be going on.  

I know that wise said it probably wouldn’t make much difference one way or the other if I contacted her tonight or didn’t.  What do you guys think?

[Whirling D]

50 minutes ago, MrMan1983 said:

I can’t see much negative coming from giving each other some breathing space and letting her contact you sometimes whirling, having to talk every single morning and evenings sets a president that you will have to do that forever too. You need to give each other a chance to miss each other sometimes (not in a passive aggressive way though). 

I do get that, and would be perfectly willing to do it… But how do you accomplish that without it being passive aggressive?
 

One option would be to send her a text tonight saying “hi doctor lady… I hope you have a great time at your beach house, whenever you head up there… Give me a blast to say hi anytime you want… I wish I was there with you… :-)”  I think that would tell her that I was thinking of her, but also leave it in her court to reach out when she wanted to.

In the not so distant past, that’s probably exactly what I would’ve said. I feel awkward, saying that now, and my awkwardness may not even be warranted…

I know that I had a suggestion like that a month and a half and ago, and many people on here, said that it’s unfair to her to say something like that, and it’s manipulative, because then it basically puts the onus on her to reach out, which they said was passive aggressive.

So, I have no idea whether doing something like that would be useful.

[Batya33]

2 minutes ago, Whirling D said:

Because in my gut of guts, I don’t think people should expect others to try to measure up to our preconceived notion of what we want to make us feel comfortable. That’s just my thought on it. But I’m not her. She probably felt that I judged her a little bit, and perhaps that’s true. Maybe it’s deserved.  She said it sounded like I was being a little self-centered by not being willing to make changes to make others feel less likely to judge us, and I kind of turned it back around, in a fairly slick way, to indicate that I shouldn’t need to worry about that, since if the others judge me solely by what I look like that’s more of a reflection of their character, I have no interest in them.  At that particular time, I don’t think she was buying that. Maybe she felt judged, I don’t know. I can’t carry her weight for her. 

But she's not -if you want to go to her professional event there's a dress code of some sort most likely and she likely knows that your long hair loose would reflect badly on her.  She's not expecting you to measure up to her notion -it's a practical request. It's extremely important that -if-you attend her event (you need not) that you are an asset to -or neutral concerning -her standing there.

I went to many formal and informal professional events with boyfriends and with my husband - it's my job to make sure I support him when I'm there -if he should need support - and that I do nothing to cast him in any sort of negative light.  I've gone to events where I met famous people, my SO's bosses and their bosses, people he wanted to network with.  I wouldn't have gone if I didn't think I could be an asset to him by being there.  I expected the same of SOs who attended mine. 

No one would be "judging you" personally but you would stick out as someone who didn't get the memo on the dress code.  And that could reflect badly on her.  

[Batya33]

5 minutes ago, Whirling D said:

“hi doctor lady… I hope you have a great time at your beach house, whenever you head up there… Give me a blast to say hi anytime you want… I wish I was there with you… :-)”  I think that would tell her that I was thinking of her, but also leave it in her court to reach out when she wanted to.

I wouldn't reach out in this way -same as calling -same impression.  Is it set that neither of you are dating others or wanting to try to date others?

[Whirling D]

7 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

But she's not -if you want to go to her professional event there's a dress code of some sort most likely and she likely knows that your long hair loose would reflect badly on her.  She's not expecting you to measure up to her notion -it's a practical request. It's extremely important that -if-you attend her event (you need not) that you are an asset to -or neutral concerning -her standing there.

I went to many formal and informal professional events with boyfriends and with my husband - it's my job to make sure I support him when I'm there -if he should need support - and that I do nothing to cast him in any sort of negative light.  I've gone to events where I met famous people, my SO's bosses and their bosses, people he wanted to network with.  I wouldn't have gone if I didn't think I could be an asset to him by being there.  I expected the same of SOs who attended mine. 

No one would be "judging you" personally but you would stick out as someone who didn't get the memo on the dress code.  And that could reflect badly on her.  

OK, I hear what you are saying, but for the sake of conversation….

Absolutely they would be judging me personally. But what would that have to do with her? Does she really think that if some of her colleagues judge her badly because she’s with a scruffy looking guy that it would really make one iota of a difference in the greater scheme of things? Who does that reflect poorly on? It certainly wouldn’t be her. It would be the objections of the persons making judgments based on appearances. Do you know what I mean? 

[Whirling D]

1 minute ago, Batya33 said:

I wouldn't reach out in this way -same as calling -same impression.  Is it set that neither of you are dating others or wanting to try to date others?

We haven’t really talked about dating others for a while, because I think it’s just a given, based on lots of conversations, that her and I are “together” and are a couple.

evidence:  just a few weeks ago, we were looking online for houses together… Knowing that it was far in the future.  

We are constantly talking about what we are going to do coming up, like this weekend, or that weekend, or, if you recall, a few weeks ago, we were talking about what vacations we can go on together. There’s been a slow down of that kind of talk, which is a bit concerning, and then her talking about me meeting family members in a couple of weeks… And how their impressions hold wait for her.  

It seems to me that that’s a pretty strong indication, that at least, for now, she sees me as her significant other. Until further notice.  I don’t think there’s been much question recently that we are exclusive. But no, I haven’t actually said recently. “are there absolutely no other guys you are considering dating?”

Upon thinking of that, it almost seems to me that her telling me last weekend that she’ll be interested in hearing what her family members think, or something like that, because she doesn’t trust her own gut feelings on things, based on the fact that she said she completely missed red flags with her last two boyfriends, and that her family members picked up on those things fairly quickly… That seems to somewhat indicate that the jury is still out whether she is locked into this or not. That’s not a comforting feeling for me. 

 

[MrMan1983]

1 minute ago, Whirling D said:

OK, I hear what you are saying, but for the sake of conversation….

Absolutely they would be judging me personally. But what would that have to do with her? Does she really think that if some of her colleagues judge her badly because she’s with a scruffy looking guy that it would really make one iota of a difference in the greater scheme of things? Who does that reflect poorly on? It certainly wouldn’t be her. It would be the objections of the persons making judgments based on appearances. Do you know what I mean? 

 

Absolutely they would be judging me

Just because you don’t care about it doesn’t mean she doesn’t, a lot of people prefer to make a good impression in front of their work colleagues. A huge percentage of society whether they admit it or not take notice of appearance, it’s the reality we live in and brushing up for one night a year really is no biggy in the grand scheme of things either.

As for whether to call her this eve, I promise you the world won’t end by missing one eve Whirling, and if she got annoyed that reflects badly on her anyway (plus she won’t be). It can be good to give each other a little break/enough space to breathe but not in a ‘way to test how she responds, it’ll mean this/that’ way as that is coming from the wrong place.

 

[bluecastle]

25 minutes ago, Whirling D said:

What do you guys think?

Me? I think this level of analysis and obsession over non-issues is the biggest issue here. Calling, not calling: this moves no needle. If it did? That means the gauge was already busted.

 

[Batya33]

10 minutes ago, Whirling D said:

We haven’t really talked about dating others for a while, because I think it’s just a given, based on lots of conversations, that her and I are “together” and are a couple.

evidence:  just a few weeks ago, we were looking online for houses together… Knowing that it was far in the future.  

We are constantly talking about what we are going to do coming up, like this weekend, or that weekend, or, if you recall, a few weeks ago, we were talking about what vacations we can go on together. There’s been a slow down of that kind of talk, which is a bit concerning, and then her talking about me meeting family members in a couple of weeks… And how their impressions hold wait for her.  

It seems to me that that’s a pretty strong indication, that at least, for now, she sees me as her significant other. Until further notice.  I don’t think there’s been much question recently that we are exclusive. But no, I haven’t actually said recently. “are there absolutely no other guys you are considering dating?”

Upon thinking of that, it almost seems to me that her telling me last weekend that she’ll be interested in hearing what her family members think, or something like that, because she doesn’t trust her own gut feelings on things, based on the fact that she said she completely missed red flags with her last two boyfriends, and that her family members picked up on those things fairly quickly… That seems to somewhat indicate that the jury is still out whether she is locked into this or not. That’s not a comforting feeling for me. 

 

Yes it "seems" she is exclusive with you.  Especially if you two are having sex I'd confirm that you two are exclusive and that she's not interested in pursuing others.   It's a simple question and understandable. I never, ever assumed.  

[Whirling D]

4 minutes ago, MrMan1983 said:

Just because you don’t care about it doesn’t mean she doesn’t, a lot of people prefer to make a good impression in front of their work colleagues. A huge percentage of society whether they admit it or not take notice of appearance, it’s the reality we live in and brushing up for one night a year really is no biggy in the grand scheme of things either.

As for whether to call her this eve, I promise you the world won’t end by missing one eve Whirling, and if she got annoyed that reflects badly on her anyway (plus she won’t be). It can be good to give each other a little break/enough space to breathe but not in a ‘way to test how she responds, it’ll mean this/that’ way as that is coming from the wrong place.

 

Thank you, man… I needed to hear that. I appreciate it.
 

Although, I do know that I will be watching for a response with bated breath. And anxiety.

And then, if I don’t hear from her tonight, I’ll probably even be more anxious tomorrow Wondering if things are going even further down the tubes. 
 

again, if I do the DBT skill of thinking about the facts, there are so many reasons for me to know that there’s no major event that’s going to happen anytime soon, or at least I can hope there wouldn’t be based on those facts. Things are likely fine. It’s the not knowing that’s driving me Crazy. That’s also the most destructive part. 

[Whirling D]

1 minute ago, Batya33 said:

Yes it "seems" she is exclusive with you.  Especially if you two are having sex I'd confirm that you two are exclusive and that she's not interested in pursuing others.   It's a simple question and understandable. I never, ever assumed.  

Bat, did you ever find yourself dating someone for a couple of months, including almost that amount of time having sex and sleeping together, doing lots of day trips, and all the things that couples do… Talking about the future, etc., and then find out later that the person was actually still dating someone else?
 

I think that would be very odd and extremely unclassy… But what do I know?

[Batya33]

6 minutes ago, MrMan1983 said:

ust because you don’t care about it doesn’t mean she doesn’t, a lot of people prefer to make a good impression in front of their work colleagues. A huge percentage of society whether they admit it or not take notice of appearance, it’s the reality we live in and brushing up for one night a year really is no biggy in the grand scheme of things either.

I think it's fine when clothing/presentation is part of how a person is evaluated in a professional setting -part.  I spent many years in sales/client-service jobs and you can bet that the way I carried myself, how I was groomed and what I chose to wore mattered and I think it's totally fine that it did.  When i interviewed people I also assessed how they carried themselves/hair style/clothing choices.  As part of the whole -not the focus, at all.

 

[Whirling D]

3 minutes ago, bluecastle said:

Me? I think this level of analysis and obsession over non-issues is the biggest issue here. Calling, not calling: this moves no needle. If it did? That means the gauge was already busted.

 

I think it’s the biggest issue as well, but it almost seems consuming to me, and I can’t shake this feeling of dread.

[Batya33]

"Bat, did you ever find yourself dating someone for a couple of months, including almost that amount of time having sex and sleeping together, doing lots of day trips, and all the things that couples do… Talking about the future, etc., and then find out later that the person was actually still dating someone else?
 

I think that would be very odd and extremely unclassy… But what do I know?"

 

I never had sex -with one exception which was a big mistake - before we were committed, in love, exclusive with strong potential for marriage.  The mistake one was -I had sex after 8 weeks, he agreed to be exclusive but it was conditioned on sex and there were no I love yous although he had tons of future talk.  Typically we waited months for actual sex and it was months after we were exclusive.

In all my serious relationships except that one the man asked me to be exclusive within 6-8 weeks (sooner for my husband since we'd dated in the past -so when we decided to get back together it was to be exclusive with the goal of marriage and family).  

6-8 weeks typically meant seeing each other once or twice  a week.  Talking once or twice a week to catch up and make our next plan.  When there was e-mail -likely a couple of emails a week.  

The longest I ever dated someone without being full on exclusive was 6 months - I think he may have dated others -we were not having sex - but he was 22 and I was 23 and - he was a partying type -after 6 months he asked me to be exclusive and said he was in love with me.

I also dated a man I met through an online site for 3 months with no exclusivity -after 2 months or so I saw he was still active on the dating site- he said he wasn't dating anyone but needed more time to be exclusive.  I internally gave him one more month.  Two weeks later he showed me a scary side of him so I ended it.  We were having sleepovers but not having sex which we both were comfortable with.  i was going on dates with others.  And open to it but I was pretty besotted with him.  I was 38 and he was too I think.