What’s next?

[catfeeder]

It may sound counterintuitive, but the healthiest relationships are filled with minor conflicts followed by repairs, and those don’t always need to be resolutions or compromises. Often each just needs to feel heard.

Agreeing to disagree is a valid option, whether it’s temporary or ongoing.

 I sympathize with the feeling of a white glove test by a doctor. I also sympathize with her position because of my own training in nursing. It’s not fun or easy to view everything through a lens of contamination, but once you’ve been taught to do so, it’s not something you can just unlearn. Yet, it’s also not something you expect that others have been taught to recognize, so it just feels like a private burden to carry.

For instance, street shoes on the floor. I know plenty of people from many cultures who insist on shoe removal at their door. I was taught the ‘why’ of that in nursing school and never allowed my work shoes into my car without being properly bagged airtight. Yet I also can’t live so stringently to disallow normal street shoes in my home. I just consider floors to be a dirty zone and won’t sit on a floor without a pillow or yoga mat.

Point is, there are compromises to be found, even while I could never eat from a dish that’s been handled by someone who has just touched a floor. My mind keeps track of these things…

So how about instead of viewing GF as rude for telling you her truths, why not try considering these to be her confessions or disclosures?

The facts are rarely a problem, it’s how we choose to interpret and internalize those facts that can make or break our companionability.

[Batya33]

42 minutes ago, catfeeder said:

Yet I also can’t live so stringently to disallow normal street shoes in my home. I just consider floors to be a dirty zone and won’t sit on a floor without a pillow or yoga mat.

So I allowed street shoes in my home before I was a mom.  But - we changed my infant on a pad on the floor (and he learned to roll over around 4 months )and then - he crawled for 8 months exclusively and obviously toddlers etc and young kids often play on the floor -so I did get pushback from certain people about street shoes in our home but it was a big NO other than my MIL and later FIL who didn't walk well and needed shoes for stability.  I notice almost all families I know with kids in the home do the no shoes thing and we always ask first.

[catfeeder]

1 hour ago, Batya33 said:

So I allowed street shoes in my home before I was a mom.  But - we changed my infant on a pad on the floor (and he learned to roll over around 4 months )and then - he crawled for 8 months exclusively and obviously toddlers etc and young kids often play on the floor -so I did get pushback from certain people about street shoes in our home but it was a big NO other than my MIL and later FIL who didn't walk well and needed shoes for stability.  I notice almost all families I know with kids in the home do the no shoes thing and we always ask first.

Yes, I honor the no shoes rule to the degree that I keep washed slippers in my car and I carry a set to visit neighbors.

The larger point is to replace judgment or offense with a respect for where such a concern has been ingrained. With a medical doctor (for F sake!) I would appreciate that clean-if-not sterile fields around kitchens and bathrooms especially would just be a given. Not personal.

 When it comes to someone who has become intimate, I would consider such statements as sharing and disclosure rather than criticism or being rude.

This is a woman who is willing to share her discomforts in the process of getting to know you better rather than being a holier than thou judge for the sake of nothing more than being a critic.

[Wiseman2]

11 hours ago, Whirling D said:

  She pretty much said she thought it was worse than she thought it might be, and that she could never live in an old house like this.  

Is this the only negative thing she said? At least she was honest and while it seems blunt, it's good to know what she thinks about your lifestyle. Being in her place debating the microbiology of drying dishes is a bit weird, but whatever, people converse about all sorts of stuff.

Try to bypass the labeling about "germophobe" because you too don't want to be labeled.  So let her be her without the pseudodiagnoses and you can be you without her "diagnosis" of your lifestyle and housekeeping.

If you're still having fun overall with her, try to enjoy your life a little without worrying about moving in together or therefore trying to teach each other "how" to live or fit a square peg into a round hole.

[shouldhavelearned]

Would rather get the truth than having someone say something to sound nice.

Everything doesn't have to be so serious 

[Batya33]

7 hours ago, shouldhavelearned said:

Would rather get the truth than having someone say something to sound nice.

Everything doesn't have to be so serious 

I'd rather someone show me they know how to be a thoughtful tactful person -not just "nice" and care about my feelings when talking about a sensitive subject. You can speak the truth while acting in a respectful and kind way.  

It doesn't have to be so serious - you can be tactful and funny.

[CadusBane]

Sorry you have to deal with those that can be backhanded in a negative way. Want to tell you small part of my story/testimony. 
 

I am 44 and gave my life to Christ at age 12 and 22, yet both times I kept living in sin. Felt a call on my life since I was young to serve the Lord, and yet I kept going and God kept trying to get my attention. I’ve battle a nervous system illness, long battle to prove it, painkiller addiction, liar, lust, and so much anger. Last two years I’ve battled a chronic infection, to make it a full year to be hit May 30 with Lyme’s disease, I was broken and useless man as I fell to my knees and asked to be forgiven. Yet felt nothing this time, then June 26th had a day where I wanted to rage and stop talking totally. Till God got my attention and I asked the Holy Spirit to fill me. I felt changed and my mind and body changed with it. My girlfriend of 9 years didn’t like this. She said I was different, to two days later angry I was bribing up the Bible and sin suddenly, and finally she couldn’t walk the path I was going to walk. I ended it in my heart as she said that. The next day we’d agreed to end it. 
 

I say all of this because once I removed the sex from the relationship had nothing left. I was a lair, cheat and hypocrite in the relationship, she was emotionally draining, needy, jealous, and we always had different core beliefs. If I spoke out of line it was like stepping on a land mine, and I’d have to back off and shut up to have peace. 
 

Reading what you wrote about the dishes, I could feel the anxiety for you good sir. Dealt with OCD mom and sister, at the same time. It’s a nightmare to live like that, as my mom is now in decline from early stages of dementia. She had a stroke in 19 and another the day we planned my dad’s funeral held two years ago today. Everything of her’s is out of order and it eats her up inside. I don’t have all the energy to do it all either for her. 
 

After almost 30 years of dating let be honest with you. Relationships are already a lot of hard work, this relationship for you seems far more stressful then joyful. Her faith will always play a role in her life and so will order. Think about past relationships, weren’t they more fun? The hardest thing we have to do sometimes as adult is tell ourselves the truth or in some cases learn to tell ourselves the truth. I understand the fear of being abandoned, used to be like that after was divorced in 02 after only two and half years together. Yet I was a painkiller addict, was awful husband and in a lot of pain. I got clean and therapy, learned not only about telling myself the truth, also about I’m responsible for my feelings no one else. 
 

Tell yourself the truth, are you happy? Or are you stressed out? Is she really the one? You can be single again, you’re strong and wise to seek the council of others. Know that you have the enjoyment to be happy and content in life with your future partner. 
 

Take care of yourself, and know you’re not alone ever. 

[Whirling D]

Thank you everyone… Some really solid responses here. Wish I felt I had it in me and had the time to respond to each and everyone. They have all been valid. I haven’t felt any negativity. All good… 🙂

I guess this will be a long post. Not for those who don’t have a tendency to want to read through a lot of stuff… here goes: 

This past weekend was complicated, but overall fairly good. It didn’t start off that way. I hadn’t seen the doctor lady for a few days, and when I arrived at her house to make the hour long trip up to her beach house, I encountered a very different person. She had just come home from work a few hours earlier, and she was running around in the garage like crazy. She didn’t even look at me when I came in the door… Which is highly unusual. typically, she’ll come right over and give me a nice hug, and we will kiss with a smile.  I almost always have a sense of feeling welcomed and valued. Not this time. I think one of the first things that happened when I saw her is that me she asked me to do something. OK. More than happy to, but I felt very ignored. 

I am getting much better at knowing that not all people are going to be in the same frame of mind that I am, and that people have different modes of connection. I was trying to understand that in these moments, but it wasn’t easy. I started to feel self-conscious, as if may be some of the conversations we have been having, were rising to the surface, or she was just getting bored of seeing me. I don’t know. 

Eventually, when we got up there, she had simmered down, and somehow the conversation came up about her frame of mind when I got there. She said something like, “now you’ve seen me in my crazy mind“. I am OK with that, as long as I understand it, and know what to expect… I guess. But am I really? I don’t know. That’s how my ex-wife was most of the time, and it caused a lot of problems. Perhaps most people have these frames of mind, I don’t know. Guess I’m not most people. But I have my problematic state of mind, as well, as you know. People are different.

So, as time went on, things were going OK… And then the topic of hair came up, I think the next morning. She hit a little harder on the topic of my hair, saying stuff like, “I don’t understand with such a cute face like yours you wouldn’t wanna look better by putting your hair up in a ponytail like I just did“. I responded by saying that better was a matter of opinion. That I liked my hair the way that it is, and it’s a rock ‘n’ roll tradition for me. Almost a right of passage. I mean, I know, I’m outside the norm there, and I’m OK with that.

She went on to say that she was still worried that if she invited me out to professional outings that she would feel awkward, and being the socially sensitive person that she is, she doesn’t want to have to feel awkward or feel like she has to explain herself… Something like that. That felt highly manipulative to me, and also very selfish, despite the fact that she said to me that she didn’t think I was thinking of other people when I was telling her that I thought that it’s really more about the other person if they have a problem with my long hair. Why would I feel the need to validate myself with people who would judge me by how I look for how long my hair is?   I think I covered that earlier.  She said it’s the world we live in, and that I am ignoring that and giving people a reason to be judgmental.  

Eventually, I think I told her that I would be more than happy to do what I needed to do to make her happy under those circumstances, but I also expected my partner to allow me to be who I am, and respect that and allow me to live the life that I feel is authentic for me. She seemed to respond to that, and the following day she mentioned she thought she was happy with the conversation.

It took me a while to come to grips with that conversation, and I had to think about it a while, and let it go, up with the understanding that not everyone is going to like how I have my hair, and it doesn’t necessarily mean it’s going to be a dealbreaker. It kind of made me think it was kind of a shallow conversation, though, but I have to perhaps understand that she’s within a professional circle that likely has very conservative values on stuff like that. Not sure that necessarily excuses what I think it’s fairly narrow minded behavior, but I have to take the good with the bad. I do know that she is so loving and decent and giving in so many other ways  that I have to navigate this, or not. I guess I will choose to navigate it. At what cost, though?

Now that I think of it, at some point, I started to get fairly clear minded with her, and say something like… “You know, this is now the third thing that seems to be a red flag for you, and if that’s the case, maybe we should start thinking about whether or not we are really the right fit for each other, because right now I’m kind of getting a sense that I may not be able to fit into your life the way you think I should”.

She was quite startled by that conversation, and began getting a little upset, and telling me that it sounded like I was expecting her to know all these things right away, and come up with an answer. I assured her that’s not what I was saying, and the topic began to die out.  I guess if I’m still thinking about it and writing about it, it must still be distracting me. Not sure what to think about it. Ultimately, I think we would want to be with somebody that values, and will except you for who you are, which is what I said to her. I don’t know what all that says, in the greater scheme of things.  

The rest of our weekend went quite well. She even asked me to stay over on a work night from Sunday into Monday, and I got up with her and saw her off to work, and everything seemed like it was going fairly well.

We weren’t intimate… Meaning, we didn’t have sex the whole weekend… Because, although, this may be TMI, she said she has some sort of condition that makes her quite sensitive to pain, and that she was still kind of recouping from the week before, which was fairly active in those regards. OK, I have similar issues, so I’m good with that. But I wondered if she was coming up with reasons to kind of avoid that kind of intimacy. Can’t yet say. History will reveal that.

Onto this morning that I am a lot more reactive, and a bit dysregulated. 

But Her and I have talked every morning and every evening for probably the last month and a half. It’s always happy and easy and fun. Last night was different, and I know that there is no evidence to feel fear, but I do, maybe because of the interactions we had over the weekend… Hair… Religion the week before… Etc. I think I’m going to be easily triggered to feel like I’m walking on eggshells.

So, yesterday morning, I called her on her way to work, and she seemed really down. She said she was really tired, even though I certainly didn’t keep her up the night before I tried to respect her sleep needs.

So, I asked her if she wanted to spend her 45 minute drive without having to manage talking to me, and just have some downtime, and she seemed OK with talking, but she said may be a shorter call… All good. She perked up a bit as the conversation went on, and it seemed like we were in a good spot. She is still talking about future life events with me long into the future… “If we ever get any other animals… They definitely won’t be sleeping on the bed…“ That kind of thing.  Still shows a future that she sees with me in it, so I left that conversation feeling that I haven’t blown it and that it’s not going to cave in. She knows that’s my greatest fear and she tries to be sensitive about it. 

She had said in the morning that she had a lot to do that night, and I told her that if she needed to skip our usual talk before bedtime, I would understand. And I would. Or would I? I don’t know. I would always make time to talk to my partner before bed, even if for two minutes to say good night.

Later in the day, I texted her a nice meme, and she texted one back…but around 6:30 PM, she texted me “I’m going to go to bed now, so I’ll talk to you tomorrow“.  I responded by saying “have a nice snooze, dear lady… If you find yourself awake later, I’ll be up… LY ❤️❤️”.  She read it two minutes later, but didn’t respond. I mean, is it too much for me to expect that the person you’re dating responds to a nice good night like that?  Could just be smiley faces or hearts, or at least some thing? I have tried not to feel avoided.
 

I guess I’m starting to see that she has avoidant tendencies. That worries me. It probably shouldn’t, and I’m looking at all the facts behind why I feel what I do. Other than the aforementioned things that she has brought up recently, things have been going OK. But how do I really know? I don’t. so I have to just assume that things are fine, and she’ll tell me if they are not. But I don’t even know she will tell me if they are not. Not yet, anyway. I have this dreaded fear that I’m going to get a call or a text and she’ll say something like, “you know, I’ve been thinking about a lot of the things we’ve been talking about, and I think I agree that you and I are just not going to work out in the long run” 

Although, part of me would understand what she is saying… Given our differences, I would still be devastated, and sent back into the dark world that I spent so many years and over the past while, and most of my adult life. That’s not a place that I want to be.

So, it’s approaching mid morning, and this is probably the latest in a day since I’ve practically known her that I haven’t heard from her or I haven’t texted her back.

We did have a conversation, maybe the one on the way to work yesterday, where she was saying that it is a bit of a challenge to balance being in a relationship and trying to get the proper amount of sleep and downtime. I might’ve started that conversation, but I’m wondering if that is a predictor of what I’m experiencing now. She may just be taking the time she needs to be in her own head and concentrate on the things that she needs. I completely get it, but if I hadn’t spoken to somebody that I had engaged with every morning and every night for weeks, and I missed a night like we did last night, the first thing I’d be doing in the morning would be texting or calling. Not today for her. 

I’m trying not to read too much into this, but even typing it out, it’s pretty clear that I am. I’m feeling like I’m slipping a little bit on the priority list, possibly? She does say she has the capacity to get depressed and down a fair amount, and I’ve seen that, so maybe that’s what I am encountering, who knows.

Thanks for reading. I know this is more of a purge than it is and ask for help, because I think I already know the answer. I have to be distracted and go do other things and not be thinking about it. And I’m getting better at doing that. Somewhat.  

So I guess the one question I am bouncing back-and-forth… Do I check in with her, to show consistency and thoughtfulness, or just go silent and let her reach out when she’s ready? Haven’t decided yet.  Before we were really steady and considered ourselves partners, which I think is pretty clear now, (but it would be interesting to hear her response If I asked her that), on days like today, I would just wait it out and eventually she would check in. I do have a concern that if I wait it out today, she might be wondering, why I’m not pursuing. Don’t know if we are still in that stage. She seems pretty solid in the thought that her and I are together and her lack of connection today would probably be nothing to her, because she knows we’ll talk later. But I don’t know that. My anxious attachment style  never feels that anything is a given or solid. And considering the complicated conversations of the last few weeks, I feel even less likely to believe that her and I are as solid as she sometimes seems to indicate. 
 

Anyways, I guess I better get a life and get moving and get on with my day… Thank you for reading… 🙂

 

 

 

 

 

[Batya33]

I see a red flag if at this point you’re still at the stage of “should I call/when should I call/how long should the call be ??”  Rarely this happens like with a traumatic event - death in the family or a child related emergency etc. but if you’re still not in a groove in this way something is very wrong IMO. 
28 years ago I was dating a guy who worked in a corporate context but also spoke a little rough around the edges and wore a rather ostentatious pinky ring.  I was in my late 20s and he was in his early 30s. I worked for a very conservative company and had only been there for about a year. I had a professional position and it was a prestigious company. 
I was invited to a summer event and could bring a guest. I asked him not to wear the ring. He did not like that. But I think he complied.  I felt at my age and wanting to impress everyone there and not stand out with a guest in a negative way it was ok to ask him. As part of a dress code. But it probably wasn’t. I always asked my dates what the dress code was for a wedding or professional event and I always complied 100%.  
I see why he was offended. And also it was a symptom of incompatibility. We were in different worlds and at that time and life stage it wasn’t going to work.

Ironically we kept in light touch and when he was close to 40 he met his wife and they did the whole suburban thing with kids etc.  I think she is in the healthcare field. I remained a city chick lol. 
I am actually surprised I made that demand to him but I was so desperate to fit in at my company. 
I see where she’s coming from. I don’t really see you two as a long term match but seriously JMHO. 

[catfeeder]

Hi Whirl, I’ll go back and read more, but I stopped at where you called her out on a 3rd red flag and raised once again that maybe this means you’re not the right fit.

I’d quit doing that. It’s just as manipulative as you sensed she was being, only a thousand times more toxic.

You’ve already seen how it shakes her up and backs her off, so you’ve found a tactic that ‘works’ but it’s horrible strategy for the long haul. The message behind it says, “If you don’t like something, you’d better keep your mouth shut, or I’ll use it to kill this thing.”

Not a great way to foster equality and openness in a relationship, and a perfect way to promote resentment and distrust.

Pulling a trigger is a big deal, and veiled threats of doing so are a poison. In sleazy sales it’s called “The Takeaway” and it implies that unless you comply right now, I’m taking the whole deal off the table.

For your own sake, please don’t do that. It will buy you a moment of desired effect in exchange for an imbalance that will erode mutual respect and plenty else.

There are far more creative and smart ways to end uncomfortable conversations without harming your relationship.

[Whirling D]

14 minutes ago, catfeeder said:

Hi Whirl, I’ll go back and read more, but I stopped at where you called her out on a 3rd red flag and raised once again that maybe this means you’re not the right fit.

I’d quit doing that. It’s just as manipulative as you sensed she was being, only a thousand times more toxic.

You’ve already seen how it shakes her up and backs her off, so you’ve found a tactic that ‘works’ but it’s horrible strategy for the long haul. The message behind it says, “If you don’t like something, you’d better keep your mouth shut, or I’ll use it to kill this thing.”

Not a great way to foster equality and openness in a relationship, and a perfect way to promote resentment and distrust.

Pulling a trigger is a big deal, and veiled threats of doing so are a poison. In sleazy sales it’s called “The Takeaway” and it implies that unless you comply right now, I’m taking the whole deal off the table.

For your own sake, please don’t do that. It will buy you a moment of desired effect in exchange for an imbalance that will erode mutual respect and plenty else.

There are far more creative and smart ways to end uncomfortable conversations without harming your relationship.

Valid thoughts, cat.
 

at the time, I thought I was being truthful. I thought I was giving her an out. I didn’t feel like I was being manipulative, but I can’t tell. I told her directly that I wasn’t crazy about what she was saying regarding my hair. I think she respected my fortitude about that.

But these red flags are kind of what I’m thinking right now. How am I going to live up to all of these expectations with her? That’s pretty much what I was trying to say to her.

I can’t tell if it’s part of my avoidant attachment disabilities to think about pushing her away under the circumstances, but because she’s really a very nice lady, and I really do like her a lot. I love her, but do I really want to have to feel like I’m not measuring up in somebody else’s world? I’m not sure I want to live the rest of my life like that.

It may not be that big of a deal, and it could be all in my head.  We operated as a pretty decent team this past weekend, fixing things up around her house, going for walks, talking, etc. That was really the only downside, was the hair conversation.
 

That conversation seemed to end well, where I backed down and told her that I was likely overreacting to her hair critiques, and we both agreed it wasn’t that big of a deal…

I’m trying not to see my part of it as manipulative, but I suppose it very well could be. It was also an attempt on my part to see how serious she was with some of these things she was thinking about. Afterwards, she said she didn’t think they were a big deal, and she was happy with the way we were talking about them and trying to figure out each other’s needs. That seemed good. She seemed to be able to let it go.  I am trying to let ot go, but I’m wondering if that’s why there’s this stretch of silence which is hugely uncharacteristic. There’s been barely a day in the last six weeks I haven’t heard from this lady, either very early in the morning, or in the evening. Didn’t hear from her last night, presumably, because she went to bed early… and that can easily check out because she told me yesterday morning she felt off and tired.

But then the nothingness this morning gives me great concern. Why would someone that you have spent greater parts of every week with for the last six weeks just suddenly not text in the morning, given that we have spoken every morning for about that same period of time? that would tell the average person that either their partner doesn’t want to talk to you for whatever reason, or she’s just too far in her own head this morning to break out of it.
 

That’s what it felt like when I first arrived there last Friday… She was so far in her own head that she barely had space to even acknowledge that I came in the room.  that’s tough for me, given that I am still quite sensitive about where her and I are going. She keeps saying things that indicate that I’ll be around for a while, but then, when I get the latest notion that maybe I won’t be, I start to get really anxious, like I am today.  That feels like a tough way for me to move forward. 

So, it’s afternoon here now, I’m wondering should I just sent her a quick hello, or just wait it out?

[Batya33]

Are you two official/exclusive? 

I'd give her space.

[Whirling D]

16 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

Are you two official/exclusive? 

I'd give her space.

Yes, ask far as I know, we are exclusive. She refers to me as her boyfriend, and she is still describing things in the future tense, so, as far as I know, we are official…

Although, it’s began to settle down a bit… Become routine, maybe? I’ve noticed a drop off in her demeanor… A lot less lovey-dovey, and excited… A lot fewer texts during the day, although she sent me a really sweet one on Monday morning, which would have just been hours after I last saw her… a lot less willing to be intimate, all of that was only for one weekend for the aforemention reasons…

So, my logic doesn’t add up that there is any problem… Unless, of course, the last few days has got her thinking about things… And that’s what I am the most worried about.

But, yes, today I’m giving her space. But that worries me, as well, since I don’t know if that’s going to tell her something…

There are times that I wonder if my main function is one of distraction for her. I mean, there is a little bit of that with all couples… We keep each other company and we take up some much-needed space in each other’s minds… I’m OK with that, because I need that, too, since we are social creatures… but there are times that I wonder if it is this need of hers to have somebody nearby that is driving her willingness to make sacrifices for me, like her religious belief, her determination to not feel uncomfortable with me in public, Etc. Those should be deal breakers for a lot of people, but she seems to be willing to put those aside… I have to wonder if that’s because they are not as important to her, or because she is settling just to have somebody that treats her nicely to take up space with her.

That may be a little bit of projection, as well, because those lenses could definitely be flipped… Am I with her just because I can’t find anybody else? There may be a small part of that, but unlike almost anyone I’ve ever dated, I feel really at home with this lady. We are so much alike rather than different.

 

 

[Batya33]

Is she permitted to seek out other options to date -have you discussed this? Or are you just assuming from her label of boyfriend she's not on the apps still and/or open to meeting other men to date? 

That's cool that you're more alike than different.  To me the specific differences you've mentioned are problematic if you're looking for the long term.  But since you're partly with her because you're settling maybe you two can date long term but not make things more serious -especially if she's still allowed to keep her options open.  

[bluecastle]

35 minutes ago, Whirling D said:

I thought I was giving her an out. I didn’t feel like I was being manipulative

"Giving someone an out" is being manipulative. It's passive aggressive and insecurity-driven because it's making them responsible for acting on or soothing your worst fears while your emotional truth stays hidden in your back pocket. Want to end something because it's not jibing with you? You end it. Want to stay in it? You stay in it, and address whatever needs addressing. Make sense?

As for the specifics here, I have a few thoughts:

The main one is that you came into this hyper-sensitive about certain things—namely, the idea, as deeply rooted in your psyche as the Empire State Building is in the island of Manhattan, that you are a sub-par dude whose bohemian leanings, in combination with your height and threadbare finances, has rendered him unrelatable and unloveable to women.

So be it your hair or your home, any comment that is less than laudatory on this front is going to enflame you. To some degree you have to think of that like walking around with a broken arm. When people brush up against you, even slightly, it's going to hurt, just as it will feel extra delicious when the coddle you. Still, they did not break the arm.   

That said, her comments about future professional events weren't the kindest. My personal view is a lot of compatibility can be gauged by how deep another person's sharp edges cut into our own skin, so maybe just think about all this as something to observe. 

[Whirling D]

4 minutes ago, bluecastle said:

"Giving someone an out" is being manipulative. It's passive aggressive and insecurity-driven because it's making them responsible for acting on or soothing your worst fears while your emotional truth stays hidden in your back pocket. Want to end something because it's not jibing with you? You end it. Want to stay in it? You stay in it, and address whatever needs addressing. Make sense?

As for the specifics here, I have a few thoughts:

The main one is that you came into this hyper-sensitive about certain things—namely, the idea, as deeply rooted in your psyche as the Empire State Building is in the island of Manhattan, that you are a sub-par dude whose bohemian leanings, in combination with your height and threadbare finances, has rendered him unrelatable and unloveable to women.

So be it your hair or your home, any comment that is less than laudatory on this front is going to enflame you. To some degree you have to think of that like walking around with a broken arm. When people brush up against you, even slightly, it's going to hurt, just as it will feel extra delicious when the coddle you. Still, they did not break the arm.   

That said, her comments about future professional events weren't the kindest. My personal view is a lot of compatibility can be gauged by how deep another person's sharp edges cut into our own skin, so maybe just think about all this as something to observe. 

Hugely insightful and thoughtfully written, blue.
 

Thankfully, after that first conversation about hair this weekend, I had a chance to drive for a couple of hours back home before I returned, and I thought a lot about the hair thing and whether it really should be a big deal.

It was really about her own insecurities of being judged, and maybe labeled, perhaps, because she’s a doctor lady that’s dating someone of a bohemian… I guess I can see how that could be a bit unnerving for her. She feels she’s got a reputation to uphold. But that’s just ego stuff.

But as you say, I have to be thinking about how someone else’s sharp edges are going to affect me. So far, it’s been just these talks. Every moment we’ve spent together, outside of those conversations, have been awesome. That’s why I am tempted to let go of these conversations. But I’m kind of afraid to.

As I said to her, I fear the worst. That’s what you just said. I have a good reason to feel the worst. She knows why I fear the worst. She knows all my bad stories now. The weekend before last I told her about all of my terrible experiences… Losing my career, etc. Losing multiple other jobs for stupid reasons… the next day, she said she didn’t think those made her believe any differently about me. I wish I felt that to be true now. She said she was thankful that I was able to open up to her about some of these skeletons. I wish I felt her thankfulness.

So now there is silence… Maybe I said something that irritated her over the weekend? I couldn’t say. Maybe the hair conversation got under her skin, or the fact that I challenged her on it, perhaps making her feel a little bit uncomfortable, because it put the point her back towards her own insecurities. maybe she didn’t like what I had to say about the conversation when we got up there, and how she was describing how she gets anxious like that when she’s under stress. Maybe I was a bit too preachy in responding to that. I don’t know, but as has been said… Do I really want to be feeling like this all the time? Like I may not be measuring up, or I’m waiting for the other foot to fall? 

I feel so good when things are moving forward with her… Every minute of the time we spent together is generally good, until we have those conversations, or until she gets stressed out. That’s really only happened in a major way just that once.

Although, I have to say, she was willing to work like a dog for about two hours to get that beach house, spotless before we left. I helped in every way I could, and we worked well as a team, but even on the way back, she said to me “you are right, we have to figure out a way to not have to be cleaning the whole time we are up there“. I did have some suggestions, but for the most part, I remained relatively out of that comment. I kind of just wanted to say, “well, the place doesn’t have to be perfectly spotless, you know. There are things that might be more important”. I’m sure I’ll end up saying that at some point, and it may not go over well.

I just wish I knew what was going on with her right now and what she might need from me, if anything. If she hasn’t reached out, there’s only one of several things a.). She’s probably a bit cranky, which she said she was very cranky yesterday morning, and maybe she doesn’t want to spread that over onto me or let me see it…

B) she’s been running around all day, taking care of things, and she has been saying that it’s been hard for her to do that since we’ve been together, and it’s been the same with me, but she knows I have much of each day free to be able to take care of things… she knows we will likely be talking at some point today, so she’s just being the doctor lady.

C) she’s upset about something I said, or did, or conversations we had, and she just is struggling with it.

C, is the only one I truly dread, and it’s the only one I would have a hard time handling.  The others aren’t great, but perhaps they are part of getting to know someone.

I also don’t really know what to say to her next time I talk with her. Part of me wants to say, “you know, that’s probably the longest in six weeks that we haven’t spoken to each other… Is there anything on your mind that you may want to talk about, or that you’ve been having a hard time with?”

Partly also knows that that seems a bit manipulative, because that is likely more about my needs than hers, and I don’t wanna come across as needy, and if anything, I probably displayed a lot of that over the last bunch of weeks. Although, I’ve been much better at not displaying that, as well.

if I ask her, if she’s upset about anything I did, or said, that also feels really needy on my part, although, in a better world, it wouldn’t… A partner would feel that it would be easy to put those fears to rest, given that she knows of my traum and history.

I am presuming. I will talk with her at some point today, but if it’s not me reaching out to her, I worry that we may not speak, and my anxiety will go up even more. It’s usually me that reaches out to her, so I don’t even know if maybe she’s wondering why I haven’t reached out to her today.

These are also complicated, I don’t even know what to do.

[Wiseman2]

Didn't you already ask her before if you should get a trim and she sent you style tips?  She seems to accept you as you are so maybe the solution is to stop talking about your hair? 

"Almost Cut My Hair" is a song by Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young, originally released on the band's 1970 album Déjà Vu. The song describes a real-life dilemma faced by many hippies: whether to cut one's hair to a more practical length, or leave it long as a symbol of rebellion

[LootieTootie]

Don't reach out - you both can use the space. The weekend getaway left you both with a lot to absorb and process.

Do you think the honey moon phase is wearing off? I wonder if it was too much too soon and still is for a 6 weeks relationship. I mean you guys really get in deep about each other's specifics and how to deal with a disagreement or how to make each other comfortable. Seems like it can be exhausting.

Any way, I don't see any dealbreakers here except incompatibilities. You both are older and set in your ways, so it's definitely going to be more a lot of growing pain if you both decide to keep this going. 

Don't be passive aggressive, because even if you think thats your natural response, you're both playing this card "please do this or say that so that I can be comforted." No one can comfort you except you.

[bluecastle]

6 minutes ago, LootieTootie said:

I wonder if it was too much too soon and still is for a 6 weeks relationship. I mean you guys really get in deep about each other's specifics and how to deal with a disagreement or how to make each other comfortable. Seems like it can be exhausting.

I have the same thought—and know it's one that's been coming up a lot. 

Personally, I think the expression "honeymoon phase" is often a kind of glossy way of describing too much, too soon. It's what happens when the strongest point of connection is not between two humans, but whatever fantasy each represents in the imagination of the other and the drug-like quality that occurs in the moments when those fantasies become indecipherable from reality. 

Whirling? The most important question right now shouldn't be whether or not this will last forever. It should be whether you're sincerely enjoying your time with her, and getting to know her. From the bleacher seats, that joy has not always been evident. It's different than the high that occurs when the drug hits the bloodstream and the low that follows in withdrawal, but rather something that's there—and much bigger—in the moments in between.  

Of course, I say that understanding that your engine runs particularly hot—and that, for some people, working on a car and taking it apart is more enjoyable than taking a trip inside of one. 

 

[Whirling D]

34 minutes ago, LootieTootie said:

Don't reach out - you both can use the space. The weekend getaway left you both with a lot to absorb and process.

Do you think the honey moon phase is wearing off? I wonder if it was too much too soon and still is for a 6 weeks relationship. I mean you guys really get in deep about each other's specifics and how to deal with a disagreement or how to make each other comfortable. Seems like it can be exhausting.

Any way, I don't see any dealbreakers here except incompatibilities. You both are older and set in your ways, so it's definitely going to be more a lot of growing pain if you both decide to keep this going. 

Don't be passive aggressive, because even if you think thats your natural response, you're both playing this card "please do this or say that so that I can be comforted." No one can comfort you except you.

Excellent questions and thoughts, Lootie. Thank you..

for sure the honeymoon phase is wearing off. That has been fairly evident over the last few weeks.

if I had to say what I feel, rather than what it is, I would say that I feel that the honeymoon phase wearing off has been harder for her than it has been for me, but that’s just from my own gut reactions.  But then again, I may be projecting.

I believe we really enjoy each other’s company. If I had to predict, I think she is more set in her ways than I am, despite the things that may seem otherwise that I write on here.  Everything has a perfect place in her beach house, and nothing else is acceptable. She works hard to keep it that way, but it clearly runs her ragged. I definitely get that, and I have tried to respect it, but it is very anxiety prone for her.  Me, too… I don’t wanna have to be working away all weekend if we go somewhere.

I think the biggest part lies with whether she will be able to accept me for my limitations. She knows what they are, because we’ve talked about them, and I make it clear that I come with limitations.  Yes, I could go out and get a “real“ job, and I’m surprise she hasn’t pushed that a bit. Or, I could cut my hair to make her happy. When I was talking to her about that a few weeks ago, it was a trim, but I think she was hoping I was going to do a lot more than that. One would not even really be able to notice I got it cut.

when I think of the DBT skills that I could be using, I don’t know what they call them, but if I look at the facts, there shouldn’t be any new problems going on right now… Unless a few days away has exacerbated some of the already existing problems.

when I talked on the phone with her on Monday night, she seemed like she was in a really good space, and we literally laughed hysterically for about 10 minutes and couldn’t stop. Only the second time her and I have ever done that. She seem to be in a really decent place. Not so much the next morning.

that’s why I am in a pickle as to whether or not to reach out to her right now. Maybe it could be helpful to say hi, so that she knows I’m thinking about her, rather than wondering why I haven’t said anything to her today. On the other hand, she may not even be thinking about it, and just going about her day, knowing that we will catch up at sometime soon, and also knowing that I have my kid with me right now, which she probably would say makes it harder for me to break away to call. It isn’t, but that’s probably what she might be thinking.

As for the fantasy part of it… There is no doubt that there has been fantasy on my part, but I get this feeling that there may even be more fantasy on her part. Someone that “gets” her oddity and her quirks, as she calls them.

early last weekend, I was feeling somewhat estranged from her, probably after the night she was cranky, and as we were going to sleep, or maybe as we were both awake in the night, I got a sense that we were both feeling estranged, although I can’t say for sure that she was… In the dark,  without having talked about anything else for quite a while, so it was completely silent… I said to her, “I’m sorry I can’t be what you want me to be“. I think she must’ve known what I was talking about, and she said something like… “But you are, you get all of my little quirks And you accept me anyway”. I had to think a little bit about what that meant in the overall scheme of things, but one way or the other, I can somewhat appreciate what she said. Didn’t have anything really to do with me, but nevertheless.

 

[bluecastle]

33 minutes ago, Whirling D said:

for sure the honeymoon phase is wearing off. That has been fairly evident over the last few weeks.

Does this not feel even a touch odd to write down? 

Subtract "the last few weeks" and what do you have? You have "the first few weeks." You have, in other words, less than a month. 

As mentioned earlier, the very phrase "honeymoon phase" makes me cringe, but putting aside my own linguistic druthers don't you think that it should be doing the opposite of fading after 21 days? Can only speak for myself, but when I was dating I found it really common—more common than not—that interest waned or incompatibilities surfaced after a few weeks. That's generally not a "honeymoon phase" settling into "partnership," but "dating" not having the juju to morph into "real relationship."

Am I correct that you have not said a word to her—have not reached out once—since Monday? 

[Whirling D]

I don’t think it’s unusual for there to be a ton of excitement brewing in the first weeks and even months of getting to know someone… The excitement of finding out all the things that you have in common, and all the things you look forward to doing together.  We certainly had that in spades.

I guess I think of the common term honeymoon phase and interpret its ending as meaning that the initial excitement is starting to wear off, and the reality of real life sets in. I think that’s almost exactly the point her and I are at.

I actually am trying hard to look forward to that transition. It’s not easy for me, for all the reasons i’ve talked about many times… Insecurity/not being able to fit in her world/losing myself in her, etc.. I think it may even be harder for her. To her, now there are more hands on her time, more demands for her to be looking at things from different perspectives and someone getting into her business, so to speak. I think that may be what I am encountering.

I think for her, and I shouldn’t probably speak for her, but if I was, she used to always say that she liked that I was different than the other guys she’s dated… And that I was the first guy she has ever dated that has been so interested in what she has to say, and her feelings, and getting to know her on a much more personal level. I have enjoyed doing that, and not because I’m trying to, that’s just how I interact.

but it might be harder for her… Suddenly she has someone in her life that is different than her norms and traditions. I think it hits herself against her own expectations .

At first, I thought she thought it was interesting and unique… But beyond the beauty there are always cracks that appear.  Like my hair… Like my religion… Like my disinterest in feeling like I need to appease the wants or interests of distant others.  Those may be hard for her. That’s real life, and defies fantasy.  
 

I have always said to her that I would do what I could to make things easy for her in her life and to try to make her happy… That includes if she wants me to put my hair up in a ponytail if we go out to professional engagements. It’s not the end of the world. I wish that she would respect me enough to know that I can handle myself in almost any kind of situation like that, and that if someone thinks badly of me or judges me because of those things, they would not be somebody I would have much interest in getting to know anyway. I pretty much told her that, and I believe it, but she says that this is the real world, and she has to work in it And get along with the others, and so I guess I kind of get that.

if this conversation ever came up again, about the hair thing, part of me has thought about using an analogy like this… Although I know it would be a very bad idea to do so… “dr. lady, what if you were to put yourself on the other side of this conversation… Let’s say, one day, I invited you to a musical performance, and I said to you… Dr. lady, I love you just how you are, but I think you would look much better if you dyed your hair purple. All the people that will be at my gig kind of respond more to people that die their hair different colors… And don’t you wanna look better? Purple hair would make you look better“

I tend to think that if I used that anecdote, she would probably never speak to me again… But it’s so true. That’s pretty much kind of what she’s saying to me from the opposite perspective.  How easily should a partner be able to manage when they hear something like that? It feels like it has taken a chunk out of my heart, and I wasn’t expecting that from her.  
 

part of me is torn between the thought that this conversation may have been a bit of a dealbreaker for me, and whether I can ever really feel that I trust her emotionally again, or that my brain is just making up this as an excuse to not have to work hard at maintaining a relationship.  After all, no two people are going to see everything exactly the same, and there’s always gonna be times where we step on each other’s toes, right? Is that simply one of those?

I get some of you are going to think that it was highly insensitive of her to say those things, and there are equally as many that think that she was just being honest. Still, if your partner discredits you like that, even if it is in superficial ways, is that something you just get over and move on from?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Sindy_0311]

On 7/7/2023 at 4:24 PM, Whirling D said:

Am I going to be feeling that I am not enough for this lady moving forward? I woke up this morning with this strong feeling that I need to end this. I woke up feeling not enough.

I think it is so sad to have such thoughts. The question is not whether you are not enough, but rather, are we compatible… you are good enough for a lady that is compatible with you, and it has nothing to do with your worth or lack of. We are all same importance. Just different. 

if I remember well, your lady has no children right?

[Whirling D]

I think that’s why it is up to me as to whether or not I feel like I can fit in her world.  The fact that I have gotten as far as I have, Sindy, is an indicator that I often do feel that it is not a better or worse situation, and that we are both equal in so many ways… But by having the hair conversation, it makes me feel that she isn’t able to manage that part of being with somebody who is different than she is. But that just might be my head trying to wrap itself around something that will give me an out… So I don’t have to Work hard at something that is going to pit me against myself.

I think ultimately, she is worth it. She treats me nicely… We have fun together… We are a good team together… And we can have difficult conversations without them getting too far off the rails. Why would I not want to continue trying to fight myself to make this work? It’s not like I have opportunities like this come along every day. I’m with someone who I know cares about me a lot. Should the fact that she seems to want to bend me to be what she would prefer me to be be a dealbreaker? I’m not so sure. I’m a bit confused by that.  Maybe I am trying to do the same with her when I encourage her to lighten up with the amount of cleaning work she seems to feel like she needs to do. Who knows. Getting to know someone like this can be very hard work, clearly.

 

 

[Sindy_0311]

6 minutes ago, Whirling D said:

get some of you are going to think that it was highly insensitive of her to say those things, and there are equally as many that think that she was just being honest. Still, if your partner discredits you like that, even if it is in superficial ways, is that something you just get over and move on from?

I would never comment on a guys apparence in early stage. I can compliment looks, outfit, whatever but never would I tell someone you should do this or that to suit my social life better. I think it’s inconsiderate, mostly since she knows you are feeling insecure about your apparence. I accept guys with overweight, no hair, whatever, but I never comment on their physical appearance outside for making compliment, and I expect the same from men… 

When I met my ex husband, I was really skinny and had long hair. He confessed later, a few years in the relationship, that he wasn’t that into me physically speaking, and that he preferred me now. But never would he have suggested me to change something… would he have done, I would probably have thought: well, if I don’t suit you, why do you want to date me after all…