What’s next?

[Wiseman2]

1 hour ago, Whirling D said:

 She asked how I was going to manage as I became older, 

Agree she may view you as an interesting rugged individualist, but this statement suggests she has no intention of supporting you financially. Note that she said how are you going to support yourself.  So just be yourself and enjoy your time together, but don't count on her rescuing you financially.

[Whirling D]

5 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

Agree she may view you as an interesting rugged individualist, but this statement suggests she has no intention of supporting you financially. Note that she said how are you going to support yourself.  So just be yourself and enjoy your time together, but don't count on her rescuing you financially.

For sure, but we have talked about partnership before, and her and I both mentioned prenup… Whatever that amounts to. In some ways, that should’ve been a bit of a red flag, regardless of whether I have any interest in her supporting me or not, which I don’t, other than the usual partnership mutuality.

[Batya33]

She might come from a traditional background but she is an adult who makes her own choices.  Traditionally, even as late as the 1970s/80s when she went to school -women traditionally did not become physicians.

And these days and when I was dating -traditionally the man paid for at least the first couple of dates but once two people became a couple there was far more turn taking (I think less check-splitting as that can be kind of -business like??).  I typically offered to pay by the second date and or pay for part of the evening, etc and if the man was steadfast traditional I snuck it in like buying movie tickets in advance or buying him practical gifts -meaning he'd mention a CD he wanted to get -I'd buy it for him. 

I'm not too keen on a woman expecting the man to pay after this many dates but she is paying in kind by hosting you at her beach house for sure.

The problem I see is that you mostly look down on her success, you mostly look down on her financial independence, you mostly look down on her spending habits - you come across as thinking you are superior for making do on very little $ and not spending on things like a house cleaner etc. 

Do you get plain coffee at Starbucks or a fancy beverage and a muffin?  Because I've got my app -I actually do takeout breakfast sandwiches twice a week or so which I eat for lunch or dinner as does my son (it started as a pandemic habit during lockdown/virtual school/telework) - but when I used to get coffee like if I had to eat out before an appointment it was a tall plain and maybe a breakfast sandwich -the Starbucks habit -if it's a fancy beverage and muffin -can add up to easily $10/week even if you just go once and leave a tip. 

So check yourself a bit with your attitude.  She's a self-made woman (me too I can relate to her so much) - she worked darn hard to get to where she is and she values financial independence, planning for retirement, etc.  Of course she'd want a prenup if she married you.  Smart of her.  Not because you did anything wrong.  There's an extreme disparity.  My friend married her dance instructor when she was 39 and he was 29.  She was a high earner after multiple ivy league degrees and a high position at a major bank - lovely Manhattan apartment, etc- self made woman too.  Definitely got a prenup.  I didn't blame her.  I'm not a fan of them but I never had to consider one in my situation.  So I can't say. 

Good for you for living on less -but it doesn't make you better than her or vice versa.

 

[Wiseman2]

12 hours ago, Whirling D said:

Even if the doctor lady and I did pool our money, it wouldn’t be much different. I wouldn’t go on spending sprees and go nuts just because I could.. I wouldn’t abuse her money like that.

If she's relatively comfortable and can afford a reasonable retirement, what benefit is there to her with "pooling money"?  

[MissCanuck]

10 hours ago, Whirling D said:

Whatever that amounts to. In some ways, that should’ve been a bit of a red flag

I don't agree that mentioning a pre-nup a red flag here. 

However you slice it, however you justify it, you earn a whole lot less than she does. She is smart to want to protect her assets. I would absolutely not hold that against her, especially considering how hard she'd have had to work to get where she is. 

 

[Whirling D]

3 minutes ago, MissCanuck said:

I don't agree that mentioning a pre-nup a red flag here. 

However you slice it, however you justify it, you earn a whole lot less than she does. She is smart to want to protect her assets. I would absolutely not hold that against her, especially considering how hard she'd have had to work to get where she is. 

 

I’ve never held it against her. I guess. I hear what you are saying, and I get it.
 

However, if the roles were reversed, and I married a lady that had virtually nothing, and I loved her, I would want to make sure that if I was the one that passed first, but that lady was well provided for. That’s just me, I guess.  
 

I consider her assets almost an inconsequential part of who she is, as I would hope she would consider my lack of assets inconsequential. It hasn’t seemed like it has been an issue, but I can’t really say what she’s truly feeling and thinking. 

[Batya33]

6 minutes ago, Whirling D said:

I’ve never held it against her. I guess. I hear what you are saying, and I get it.
 

However, if the roles were reversed, and I married a lady that had virtually nothing, and I loved her, I would want to make sure that if I was the one that passed first, but that lady was well provided for. That’s just me, I guess.  
 

I consider her assets almost an inconsequential part of who she is, as I would hope she would consider my lack of assets inconsequential. It hasn’t seemed like it has been an issue, but I can’t really say what she’s truly feeling and thinking. 

I consider financial values and work ethic and saving habits and retirement plans highly consequential when considering marriage or like marriage.  I wouldn't have married anyone who had virtually nothing nor would I want to be the one to marry someone with virtually nothing and have to provide for them to have something after my passing.  Yes I would have married someone who was temporarily underemployed or unemployed.  Depending on why. 

No I would not have expected someone I married to provide for me if I had chosen not to provide for myself ending up as an adult with virtually nothing -meaning an adult -not a technical adult like my mom who had virtually nothing as a college grad at 22 when she married and moved from her parents home to a tiny apartment with my father who also was just starting out.  They got jobs. He made more than her - I mean -women in the 1950s generally were paid less anyway.  They started a family 5 years later when they could afford it more.  

But if you marry years after college or trade school -both people should be able to support themselves IMO and yes I defer to couples where one is wealthy, one has nothing and if that works for them -totally fine.  But saying it's inconsequential - you're entitled to your opinion of course.

I consider how my husband has his assets highly consequential -how he got to where he is professionally, educationally, financially - what he did to make this happen to continue to make this happen and how he is imparting those values to our son -as I am.  I'd cringe if he role modeled for our son that it's ok to have nothing as far as assets because it's inconsequential.  I wouldn't ever have married him if I thought he felt that way.  He doesn't. But yes there's a cover for every pot and I defer to you and people who find it inconsequential.

[MissCanuck]

2 minutes ago, Whirling D said:

if the roles were reversed, and I married a lady that had virtually nothing, and I loved her, I would want to make sure that if I was the one that passed first, but that lady was well provided for. That’s just me, I guess.  

Keep in mind that pre-nups also serve to protect one's assests and finances in the event of divorce. That is probably what this woman was thinking when she mentioned it. She would want to be sure she was still okay financially if you two married and eventually split. 

Either way, all you can do is see how things go. There's no sense worrying too much about such things right now when the relationship is still so new. 

 

[Wiseman2]

10 hours ago, Whirling D said:

For sure, but we have talked about partnership before, and her and I both mentioned prenup… Whatever that amounts to. In some ways, that should’ve been a bit of a red flag, regardless of whether I have any interest in her supporting me or not, which I don’t, other than the usual partnership mutuality.

Prenuptials are useless unless you divorce. Her best asset protection is to not marry or commingle finances. She's certainly not thinking about putting you in her will. You can get your finances assessed and address your retirement as well as have a will. 

Unfortunately after getting to know her and her opinion on your house, you may have to rethink the initial dream that she'll sell her place, move in with you and use her assets to fix up your house and property.

All you can do is play it by ear and be realistic about your retirement.

[Whirling D]

I have felt completely out of sorts for the last several days. I’m uncommonly depressed. Lack of energy or will to do much of anything. I’m still trying to keep busy, and I do feel better when I keep my mind occupied, but I can’t help feeling the same rain and clouds in my head that I see outside my window right now. It’s raining pathetically. 
 

I can’t tell, if what’s been going on in my head is imaginary (which it may very well be), and when I look back at the last bunch of times I was with the doctor lady, yes, there were some complicated moments… Just one last weekend, really with the hair thing, but that was kind of a combination of a few complicated conversations over the last 10 days or so… I can’t help but think that the silence that I’ve been experiencing over the last 48 hours may be the residual effect of that. 

Consider: this is a woman that I have spoken to, for the most part, each morning for a half an hour, and each evening for at least a half an hour (even with the evening in the morning we missed this past week due to her fatigue)… and even when I was on vacation back in April, when we were just starting to really date in earnest, we would text at least a bit every day, with her often being the first to check in, and then I spoke with her in a video call every night.  No pretty much silence. Although she kind of warned me that she had no time to talk this weekend.
 

We talked briefly on Friday night when she decided to get up early and leave the next morning. We exchanged a single text yesterday morning, with her offering “grey day”, with no emojis or anything. You saw yesterday what I wrote back.

The radio silence just seems odd, and somewhat perplexing. In my puny little brain, it seems to be telling a story. A story in which my character feels like I’m being put a bit on the back burner of her life. Generally speaking, not just this weekend.  Maybe even the stove with that burner has been turned off. That’s the end of the meal, so to speak.

I’m very glad she is spending the weekend up at her beach house, and I am presuming her friend ended up meeting her there (as of Friday night there was a little bit of doubt her friend would make it up there, but the friend said she thought she would). I would be happy for that. But I’m also nervous about that.

She told me that her friend is also a doctor, and lives a very lavish lifestyle… I have this bad feeling there could’ve easily been a conversation such as, “yeah, my new boyfriend doesn’t have a penny to his name, and has long hair”.  It is almost culturally, appropriate that her friend, being of high value, would say something like “Dr. lady, why would you choose someone like that, with all the guys that you would likely be able to catch with who you are? Is this really the road you wanna travel?”  I suspect that’s what her mother might also say, and her brother. That’s not at all a comforting feeling.

Of course, if I met these people in person, I would have no trouble presenting myself as a smiling, decent person that can engage fairly easily, and at least marginally hold a conversation. That doesn’t necessarily mean that the person on the other end will actually like what I had to say, and feels any kind of kinship. We know my luck with that kind of thing. 

So here I am, early on this Sunday morning, feeling almost a little annoyed that things seem to have shifted to radio silence, for reasons I don’t understand, and I don’t relate to. If it were me going on a trip with my friend, Larry, I’d be sending her photos and emojis off and on all day, like it was a month ago between her, and I.

So there’s really only one of two things this lack of communication might mean. She’s having fun and enjoying herself, and she knows her and I will talk soon enough… or…she is starting to pull back and rethink the prudence of being with me.  I was almost getting a sense of that last week. Although they was still scant evidence to the contrary.

Her state of mind the last time I spoke with her indicates the former, since she said that she’s not gonna have a lot of time to talk while she’s up there. Maybe she’s taking the time to be separate, just because she is an introvert, and openly says she needs her own downtime. When I’m not struggling like this, I feel exactly the same, so I get it. 

It’s just not knowing that drives me batty. I feel so alone and rejected, even if it’s only in my own head.

Yes, I’ll keep busy today, yes, I’ll tried to take care of myself, but yes, I’m going to end up being a mess, one way or the other.

So now I have two choices… I can send her a brief text later on this morning, wishing her a nice day, which would be almost expected, or I can follow her lead.  She knows how I feel. She knows I enjoy talking to her. She knows she told me she wouldn’t have a lot of time to actually talk while she was up there, although she did say she would text.

The proactive part of myself says I should wait it out, and let her come back to me, like she did yesterday morning, although with not much really to say on her part. At least it showed she was willing to reach out and she was thinking of me, however, briefly.  I do worry a bit that if I don’t reach out to her today, and I don’t hear from her, it just might be sending a stronger signal to her that I am acknowledging that things are fading. Is that the message I wanna send to her?

So… Do I wait it out, or do I sent her a very gentle good morning later on?  

 

[Batya33]

I'd wait it out.  Please know that if a friend can influence her to end things then she's not a good match for you.  I mean JMHO but isn't it .... obvious??

Certainly our friends can help us see outright abuse if we're in denial -I mean -for me -hypothetically but I've been the friend trying so hard to point out a dangerous situation -but there was no one - no one -who could have given me their opinion about my future husband that would have swayed me -not when we got back together - our first time together -yes certain comments bothered me way way too much -because they rung true for me and validated my own core shaking doubts that something wasn't quite right between us back then  - but no one now or then could shake my commitment to him. 

Yes I've had friends (including his friends/family!) have certain opinions on certain choices my husband makes/has made -some of his habits -an I appreciate the input and it's helped me -but never ever has made me question my love for or commitment to him and actually I would not appreciate if someone went that far in sharing their views (unless for some bizarre reason they thought there was abuse or harassment -no one ever has -far far from it).

I'm sorry you're feeling upset and frustrated.

[Whirling D]

53 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

She might come from a traditional background but she is an adult who makes her own choices.  Traditionally, even as late as the 1970s/80s when she went to school -women traditionally did not become physicians.

And these days and when I was dating -traditionally the man paid for at least the first couple of dates but once two people became a couple there was far more turn taking (I think less check-splitting as that can be kind of -business like??).  I typically offered to pay by the second date and or pay for part of the evening, etc and if the man was steadfast traditional I snuck it in like buying movie tickets in advance or buying him practical gifts -meaning he'd mention a CD he wanted to get -I'd buy it for him. 

I'm not too keen on a woman expecting the man to pay after this many dates but she is paying in kind by hosting you at her beach house for sure.

The problem I see is that you mostly look down on her success, you mostly look down on her financial independence, you mostly look down on her spending habits - you come across as thinking you are superior for making do on very little $ and not spending on things like a house cleaner etc. 

Do you get plain coffee at Starbucks or a fancy beverage and a muffin?  Because I've got my app -I actually do takeout breakfast sandwiches twice a week or so which I eat for lunch or dinner as does my son (it started as a pandemic habit during lockdown/virtual school/telework) - but when I used to get coffee like if I had to eat out before an appointment it was a tall plain and maybe a breakfast sandwich -the Starbucks habit -if it's a fancy beverage and muffin -can add up to easily $10/week even if you just go once and leave a tip. 

So check yourself a bit with your attitude.  She's a self-made woman (me too I can relate to her so much) - she worked darn hard to get to where she is and she values financial independence, planning for retirement, etc.  Of course she'd want a prenup if she married you.  Smart of her.  Not because you did anything wrong.  There's an extreme disparity.  My friend married her dance instructor when she was 39 and he was 29.  She was a high earner after multiple ivy league degrees and a high position at a major bank - lovely Manhattan apartment, etc- self made woman too.  Definitely got a prenup.  I didn't blame her.  I'm not a fan of them but I never had to consider one in my situation.  So I can't say. 

Good for you for living on less -but it doesn't make you better than her or vice versa.

 

I’m curious… What in the world would make you think that I look down on her success and her financial freedom? I don’t think feel that I do that at all. I’m happy for her, and only a little bit envious.

I don’t desire fancy things or a lot of money. They are not going to make me happy. Human connection, and understanding are about the only things that I have any real value for.

Perhaps maybe knowing that I would grow old with someone in a partnership, and knowing that partnership could help keep me safe should something go wrong with my partner. That might be the exception.

Another example… I enjoy her house, and I also really enjoy her Beachhouse. But I don’t really enjoy them anymore than I enjoy my house and environment. I come home to my house and really value this beat up old house out in the woods. It speaks to me for what it is, rather than what it isn’t.  My house tells stories of history and tradition. The words to me represent the energy that somebody in the past has left behind here. I can open my windows here and let the fresh air in, whereas in her house, all the windows and blinds are closed because there’s a massive interstate highway, about 2/10 of a mile through the woods. 

She drives a fairly expensive car, and is already thinking about her next expensive car. I drive a Honda CRV that I actually feel drives better than her expensive car and has more safety features than hers does. Same year.  So, I don’t go by the motto that expensive things are necessarily better. They’re just different.

[Whirling D]

5 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

I'd wait it out.  Please know that if a friend can influence her to end things then she's not a good match for you.  I mean JMHO but isn't it .... obvious??

Certainly our friends can help us see outright abuse if we're in denial -I mean -for me -hypothetically but I've been the friend trying so hard to point out a dangerous situation -but there was no one - no one -who could have given me their opinion about my future husband that would have swayed me -not when we got back together - our first time together -yes certain comments bothered me way way too much -because they rung true for me and validated my own core shaking doubts that something wasn't quite right between us back then  - but no one now or then could shake my commitment to him. 

Yes I've had friends (including his friends/family!) have certain opinions on certain choices my husband makes/has made -some of his habits -an I appreciate the input and it's helped me -but never ever has made me question my love for or commitment to him and actually I would not appreciate if someone went that far in sharing their views (unless for some bizarre reason they thought there was abuse or harassment -no one ever has -far far from it).

I'm sorry you're feeling upset and frustrated.

Thank you, bat.  I appreciate that.

When you say, isn’t it obvious, are you talking about the fact that her and I are not a good fit, or that if her friend convinces her otherwise that she’s not a good fit?

I am not entirely convinced that her and I are not a good fit. Outside of all the financial stuff, and the religious stuff, her and I connect quite well. We have a lot of the same feelings of being introverts and outcasts, and we connect on that level.  We enjoy being in each other’s company, a lot, and enjoy doing a lot of the same things… There are plenty of things we have in common in that regard. We both really enjoy how we get along when we are together. We talk a lot. She laughs a lot at the things I say, and I could use that in my life. A lot. I feel so drawn to her when we are together. Like no one else. Many times, it almost feels like two peas in a pod… to a degree. We kind of speak the same language in so many ways. It’s only culturally speaking that we’re very different. What does that really mean in the long run? I don’t really know. I don’t really care that much, but I’m getting pretty clear signs back that she may. If anything, that’s where my biggest fear lies.

Like what she said in the middle of the night last weekend when I said to her, “I’m sorry, I feel like I can’t be what you need me to be“ and she responded, if I recall correctly, “but you do… You see all my little quirks, and you accept me for them anyway“. That’s a little bit of an odd response, but it goes both ways. She has, at least, until recently, been seemingly willing to except me for who I am. At least, seemingly. That may be changing. 
 

So, I’m tempted to not reach out to her today, although over the last month or so, it’s always been me reaching out to her at night with a call… I don’t usually text her before hand and ask her if she wants to talk. I just called. She always seems happy to hear from me.

Do I risk making her think I’m being passive aggressive by not following the same routines?  If she is a traditionalist, she may be expecting me to be the one to take the lead. I’ve been happy to do this, but if I stop doing that this weekend… I fear that she may begin to think I’m playing games with her?

[Whirling D]

And you know… There is no way she hasn’t had tons of time to be thinking about sending me a quick text that would say, “thinking of you, wish you were here”.  That would have been fairly common only a few weeks ago, I think. Radio silence this weekend.

I almost have to be a blockhead not to think that this is a little bit of a sign of what is to come.
 

[Wiseman2]

35 minutes ago, Whirling D said:

Although she kind of warned me that she had no time to talk this weekend.

You could just shoot her a text to say hi, but she is up there with guests so probably can't chat that much. 

[rainbowsandroses]

Whirling, I know I said I wouldn't be posting but feel inclined to say something now. 

I agree something sounds terribly off, this is not just you being anxious and overthinking.

I mean it's the weekend for heaven's sake, what is she doing that she couldn't send a simple text saying hi, thinking of you, miss you?  Come on.

It's been 10 weeks, it's too early for this much complacency from her. 

It sounds to me like she is slowly fading out. . As such, leave her be.  Let her fade out.

You can't hold her anyway, even if you tried. 

It's been discussed you have not formally discussed exclusivity and as such she has kept her options open, even if she wasn't actively pursuing those options. 

Given everything that has transpired as of late, it's possible she began exercising her options and has met someone.  

Again, it's possible.  But regardless, it's best you begin emotionally preparing yourself for the possibility your situationship has run its course.

I'm sorry and all the best moving forward.  😞

 

 

[Whirling D]

13 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

Whirling, I know I said I wouldn't be posting but feel inclined to say something now. 

I agree something sounds terribly off, this is not just you being anxious and overthinking.

I mean it's the weekend for heaven's sake, what is she doing that she couldn't send a simple text saying hi, thinking of you, miss you?  Come on.

It's been 10 weeks, it's too early for this much complacency from her. 

It sounds to me like she is slowly fading out. . As such, leave her be.  Let her fade out.

You can't hold her anyway, even if you tried. 

It's been discussed you have not formally discussed exclusivity and as such she has kept her options open, even if she wasn't actively pursuing those options. 

Given everything that has transpired as of late, it's possible she began exercising her options and has met someone.  

Again, it's possible.  But regardless, it's best you begin emotionally preparing yourself for the possibility your situationship has run its course.

I'm sorry and all the best moving forward.  😞

 

 

Thank you rainbow. Your thoughts are welcome anytime, whether you think I’m listening or not… 🙂

yeah, my heart and soul have been preparing all weekend for what you are saying. But she’s a tricky lady in that regard. She’s fairly emotionally complex.

On one hand, she conveys herself as being fairly needy, and seems to appreciate and need constant attention and reassurance… At least she did until recently. The flipside of that coin is that she may be a bit avoidant, and have a hard time sharing her time in space with someone else, although she was with her double X for 15 years, and then her last boyfriend for three, both of which she said she felt little connection with for a good chunk of the time she was with them, but yet she stayed.

The alternative thinking pattern, and there’s also evidence of that, is that she feels secure enough at where her and I are at and she knows that we will be talking soon enough. I’d like to think that’s true, and every once in a while my brain clears and I Believe there is a strong chance this is true. If you recall, I have felt this insecure when there was gaps before, and it was always perfectly fine when we reconvened, and it turned out to be almost all in my head.

I would be perfectly fine with this downtime between her and I, if we weren’t coming off of a weekend that had a couple of stressful moments. Moments that basically amounted to me telling her she should be considering whether her and I are the right fit. She seemed to get by that conversation, but how do I really know?

if I look at the positive side of things… Here is what I see… I didn’t hear from her by text at all on Friday, and I backed away, and she called me out of the blue at around 8 PM Friday night, after she had decided not to leave. That was sweet, and it took away a lot of my anxiety.

However, of course, there is the possibility that my presence in her life just takes up her dark spaces… Which could be sent the same to be true for me. But I do like her, from what I’ve seen so far, and I think she likes me as well.

She even told me on Friday night, as you know, that she wasn’t going to have a chance to talk on the phone over the weekend, but she would check in with texts. She did that yesterday, although not with much fanfare, but that’s been kind of what our texts have been like lately.  That could be another indicator that she is secure enough in where we are at to feel she doesn’t need to be lovey-dovey all day long like we used to be. That’s probably a much healthier place for her to be, I guess. I don’t know. I like that kind of contact and exchange of emotional gestures. I know a lot of people do. That’s just a difference in style, I guess.

I’ve been known on many occasions since I’ve known her to create things in my own head that may not be true, and if I even think back of the conversation that I had on a video call with her Monday, which would have been 48 hours after the difficult conversation, if I remember correctly, but I can’t member what day the difficult conversation was, either Saturday or Sunday… Anyway, something we were talking about made her start laughing, and we both started laughing hysterically… It was a blast. It was a nice call.   Things seemed OK, at least somewhat for a good chunk of the other calls and video calls during the week, although she said she was exhausted all the time, and she sounded it.  I was worried that it might’ve been because she was anxious about me and being with me any longer.

I think I still said… “Love you…“ The last time I spoke with her on Friday, and if I recall correctly she returned the sentiment.

when I think of all of these things, it makes me think I may be hugely overreacting. But as you say, I have to prepare for the worst. There’s a strong chance it’s coming. Her silence this weekend could be a very strong indicator of that. I’m hoping not.

[Whirling D]

Additionally to mention… She knows I have my kid all week, even knowing I told her my kid works for six hours each day… But she’s the type of lady that would probably think she doesn’t want to disturb time with my daughter this weekend, perhaps knowing that we’re going to see each other a lot next weekend.
 

At least I hope that’s what she’s thinking.

[rainbowsandroses]

I agree the luvy-duvy stuff is too much and not sustainable.  However, even assuming she's settling in, I still think her disappearance this weekend is odd.

BUT, I'm not an avoidant, I don't really know how avoidants behave in a day-to-day dating relationship other than as I said earlier, they tend to go from one extreme to the other.

It's either too much, too over-the-top, or nothing at all.  There's no middle ground, no balance. 

Perhaps that's what you're experiencing now, I don't know. 

But ask yourself, are all these ups and downs, push-pulls, hot-cold behavior acceptable to you?

If so, no judgment, as I said there are some people who for whatever reasons are actually comfortable with the uncomfortable.

And that's OK.  

But if it's NOT ok, perhaps it's time to reconsider the relationship; frankly it sounds utterly exhausting at least to me. 

But your call.  Good luck whatever you decide. 

[Batya33]

Needy and acting on needy doesn't mean she's into you as a person - don't assume that.  I mean yes she is interested in you, likes you -but when she reacts to neediness that's self-absorbed and doesn't mean it's because she's interested in you as a person -she's interested in self-soothing mostly.  You secondarily, if that.  

I wasn't talking about liking fancy or expensive things -I was talking about financial stability and independence -far far different. That is why I don't think assets are "inconsequential" to a potential partnership/marriage.  I don't need fancy or expensive things.  Your envy of her comes across more than a little bit, at least in your posts. And I'm not sure why you didn't just google the cost of a cruise -rather than ask your daughter. 

Or why you were surprised it was 6k.  I've never been on one and we just spent 10 days in Europe where my husband's flight and a lot of the hotel was covered and I am certain that even with that our holiday likely cost us close to that. 

Flights are pricey/hotels/and even though we don't eat out fancy -maybe one or two meals that are more high end - and I also bring food/shop at markets -it adds up! Cruises except wen there are deals I imagine are in the thousands for a couple to go.  

You have this notion of conflating high end lifestyles with financial stability and independence and prepping for retirement.  Two different things.  She's single and she deserves to drive a nice car -she earned it.

[Whirling D]

6 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

I agree the luvy-duvy stuff is too much and not sustainable.  However, even assuming she's settling in, I still think her disappearance this weekend is odd.

BUT, I'm not an avoidant, I don't really know how avoidants behave in a day-to-day dating relationship other than as I said earlier, they tend to go from one extreme to the other.

It's either too much, too over-the-top, or nothing at all.  There's no middle ground, no balance. 

Perhaps that's what you're experiencing now, I don't know. 

But ask yourself, are all these ups and downs, push-pulls, hot-cold behavior acceptable to you?

If so, no judgment, as I said there are some people who are actually comfortable with the uncomfortable.

And that's OK.  

All true, and a very valid question, rainbow.

my ex-wife had extreme avoidant characteristics. I’m starting to see some similarities. My ex-wife could be loving and giving and generous to a fault. But I couldn’t come to grips with the fact that she was fairly angry and avoidant a good chunk of the time I would be with her.  
 

I know I will have my share of avoidance, as well, and you have pointed that out on multiple occasions. The difference, I think, is that I am able to tell when I am becoming avoidant, and even being able to tell when I am creating things in my head, which I may be right now… But sometimes what I feel in my head turns out to be true, and that’s what the doctor lady said a few weeks ago… It wasn’t that I was imagining something, it was that I was smart. That’s exactly what she said.

Being with an avoidant like my ex-wife  was tough for similar reasons. But always left me thinking I did something wrong or said something wrong, and you are right with your question… Do I want to live like that?

with the doctor lady, the jury is still out, since I will need more experience. If I get a chance to have those experiences, which I hope.

The doctor lady is also a lovely lady, but I get the sense that she can come back from that avoidant mode a lot more quickly than my ex-wife could. A little bit of that a speculation, though.

my ex-wife couldn’t tolerate being touched, and if I can be clear, physical intimacy wasn’t something that my ex-wife particularly valued. I think she did it because she appreciated the closeness, but she felt almost nothing in terms of arousal, and most of the times it often felt she was doing it for me rather than for herself.  That’s tough, because it’s important for me for it to be a mutual experience.

Doctor lady isn’t that way, or seemingly isn’t. She enjoys and encourages the intimacy… And can derive pleasure from it from a slightly more hedonistic perspective, if I dare say. I’ve tried hard to allow her to experience that, because she said she didn’t get that for the longest time.

Ironically, we were not intimate that last weekend… Since she had said pretty quickly that she had been sore from the previous weekend, because of some condition she apparently has… I don’t remember the name. I did wonder if that was just a way out for her because she wasn’t feeling it? I don’t think so, because she had described that condition previously, even before she had become sore, so I do think that there is something that happens with her that makes it less comfortable to be intimate.

I even told her that I have a similar condition, which leaves me feeling almost impotent on a fairly regular basis, and also even changes my brain pattern… If I am feeling “impotent” At any point, I suddenly become a huge avoidant, and start looking at people and life and my partner in a very negative light. It’s almost predictable. When I start to feel incapable of being intimate, my brain just changes. It’s like a switch goes off, and my brain becomes much darker and my attraction toward my partner goes down into the negative numbers and far down. That’s when I push people away prettyAt any point, I suddenly become a huge avoidant, and start looking at people and life and my partner in a very negative light. It’s almost predictable. When I start to feel incapable of being intimate, my brain just changes. It’s like a switch goes off, and my brain becomes much darker and my attraction toward my partner goes down into the negative numbers and far down. That’s when I push people away pretty strongly. strongly.

as for her being avoidant… Which I have seen evidence of, and she has likely seen evidence from me…

anyway, more specifically, if I found out that she was avoidant here and there, I could probably handle that, but it depends on what extent. If she’s avoidant every time I see her, I think that would be a problem. She was avoidant quite a bit last weekend… She was running around like a crazy girl doing this and doing that, worrying about the dogs and how clean everything was…

so, I would have to ask myself this question… How important is it that I get 24 seven attention from this lady, given how decent and sweet I know she is in most other scenarios? She has the capacity to be awesome, but then again, so did my ex-wife. Look where that got me. I was incapable of sustaining that level of avoidance. It was doing the same thing to me then as this is now. As I say again, look where that got me.

[rainbowsandroses]

5 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

Needy and acting on needy doesn't mean she's into you as a person - don't assume that.  I mean yes she is interested in you, likes you -but when she reacts to neediness that's self-absorbed and doesn't mean it's because she's interested in you as a person -she's interested in self-soothing mostly.  You secondarily, if that.  

Well said!  And wholeheartedly agree. 

Codependency NOT love, two entirely different things. 

 

[Batya33]

"How important is it that I get 24 seven attention from this lady, given how decent and sweet I know she is in most other scenarios? She has the capacity to be awesome, but then again, so did my ex-wife. Look where that got me. I was incapable of sustaining that level of avoidance. It was doing the same thing to me then as this is now. As I say again, look where that got me."

I wouldn't label her as an avoidant. She has guests.  You've avoided confirming that you two will not be open to pursuing other people.  So perhaps one of the guests is interested in her and she wants to keep her options open and texting you when it's convenient also might not be totally private from her guests.  And/or she wants to -gasp- have a life and focus on her guests and put the darn phone away.  

My son and I hung out on the couch for a half hour or so yesterday reading our separate books -he has summer reading.  I am a bookworm. I heard my phone ping.  I not only didnt look at it -I shut off the ringer.  So I wouldn't be tempted at all.  A half hour or so -but I didn't care how long it ended up being.  He comes first and I won't be tethered to my phone and have to respond to non-emergency texts or calls at that time.  She is hosting guests -leave her be.

[bluecastle]

One way to see this:

It's all pretty consistent with the past 10 weeks. I think her "radio silence" was frustrating to you even over the dating app, if I recall. Though the break in that silence—which I imagine is on the horizon—has always invigorating.

I do use radio silence in quotes here because I personally believe that not talking for 24 hours should be okay, especially when someone lets you know ahead of time that they're going to be less communicative than usual. 

But her hair comment continues to grate on you, and it may very well be that she cannot sustain the level of contact that you need for security. Both of those things, while sad, are important to learn.

 

[Seraphim]

People had to live in the moment when we didn’t have cellphones. Trying to live in the past causes depression because you can’t change it. Trying to live in the future causes anxiety because you can’t control it .