Twin Troubles

[MissCanuck]

2 hours ago, VM22911 said:

I think so. I think the pressure from me and his family will get to him by then. 

But do you want him to be motivated just by pressure?

Because that will never work. If he's not intrinsically motivated to move forward and take healthy space from his brother, it will crash and burn at some point. 

[Batya33]

2 hours ago, VM22911 said:

I think so. I think the pressure from me and his family will get to him by then. 

He also admitted that he prefers it just the two of us when I asked him about our life now. Although his actions don't really show that

You want him to be with you out of a sense of pressure? Why would you want that/settle for that? It's nice he says he "prefers" - that's kind of meaningless in this situation IMO.

[VM22911]

I mean, if he's so comfortable in something unhealthy, isn't pressure to get out of it the only way forward?

[Batya33]

6 minutes ago, VM22911 said:

I mean, if he's so comfortable in something unhealthy, isn't pressure to get out of it the only way forward?

Yes but not in marriage.  Or relationships.  I think some pressure is good in certain situations -for example there were times I pressured myself to work out, times I was pressured by a health care provider -or felt pressure -to make lifestyle/dietary changes, etc.  But no one ever should convince themselves to move forward in or enter a relationship based on pressure.

New Years Eve 2004 I think it was I remember getting this huge pep talk from a woman friend as to why I should marry my current boyfriend -how her older sister had been in a similar situation -doubting whether her husband was the one -how she married him and ended up so happy to have done so, they had kids, lovely home etc.  I left our conversation energized -feeling pushed to make a great choice.

Until the next day or so -because I was stronger than that -short term that kind of pep talk/push helped me see a different perspective -that worked for her sister (seemingly) - but I was strong enough to know my core-shaking doubts were very real.  And I needed to listen only to me.  Not some well meaning pep talk.

If you think about it even wedding vows focus on not being there out of any pressure and often for religious ceremonies you do a session of premarital counseling with the officiant - and in mine he said "look I know you two love each other - but what do you like doing together?" We told him lol watching Seinfeld reruns.  But the truth is -he was looking at us to make sure we were together because we wanted to be with our whole hearts and heads -our own free will -he was an older man and my husband and his family had known him for decades. I bet other religious counseling also attempts to insure the people are there out of their own volition entirely.

Marriage can be tough -and I would never be motivated by "well remember my family really wanted me to do this/my friends thought we were a perfect match and were all settled down so.......".  And if I were -there would be something terribly wrong with me.

[Wiseman2]

5 minutes ago, VM22911 said:

I mean, if he's so comfortable in something unhealthy, isn't pressure to get out of it the only way forward?

He's happy with the arrangements and his brother. So "unhealthy" is relative in this case. He and his family have their own way of doing things that seem odd, but nonetheless, he bought the house with the brother before you got involved.

Hopefully you can ease out at some point when the incompatibilities become too much to tolerate.  It doesn't matter if it's a twin, sibling, cousin, whatever. The issue is they seem joined at the hip and this is inconsistent with what makes you happy or foresee for your future.

[Batya33]

6 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

He's happy with the arrangements and his brother. So "unhealthy" is relative in this case. He and his family have their own way of doing things that seem odd, but nonetheless, he bought the house with the brother before you got involved.

Hopefully you can ease out at some point when the incompatibilities become too much to tolerate.  It doesn't matter if it's a twin, sibling, cousin, whatever. The issue is they seem joined at the hip and this is inconsistent with what makes you happy or foresee for your future.

Yes I meant to add this. It's not unhealthy as in dangerous to his health.  It's healthy for him in a lot of ways -he benefits a lot from the status quo.  How would you like it if someone pressured you into conceiving a child because you were getting up in years and it would be "unhealthy" to undergo the risks at an older age? Even if you said you preferred to have a child but didn't feel ready right now? 

What you are doing is unhealthy too.  Do you feel you'd be motivated by pressure in seeing your friends in healthful relationships to end this one and pursue a healthy one? Do you feel motivated to change your career to a more lucrative one since your career is part of the reason you feel like living rent free is the right way to proceed?

[VM22911]

There's a small part of me that worries that you are right and we are ultimately incompatible.

But I feel that we are so happy as we are now.

We are in our own space, in a new city, he surprises me with theatre tickets, we go out together more and he's there to come home too. He goes out to play sport once or twice a week, which is great, although he misses doing it with his brother. He can do things on his own and it's so much easier watching him go out trying new things than back home when he's just going out with his brother 3 times a week and I'm eating dinner alone.

We can have a better relationship and he can push himself. But back where we were he just feels no need to.

But maybe I am just a bit delusional cause I love him

[Batya33]

18 minutes ago, VM22911 said:

There's a small part of me that worries that you are right and we are ultimately incompatible.

But I feel that we are so happy as we are now.

We are in our own space, in a new city, he surprises me with theatre tickets, we go out together more and he's there to come home too. He goes out to play sport once or twice a week, which is great, although he misses doing it with his brother. He can do things on his own and it's so much easier watching him go out trying new things than back home when he's just going out with his brother 3 times a week and I'm eating dinner alone.

We can have a better relationship and he can push himself. But back where we were he just feels no need to.

But maybe I am just a bit delusional cause I love him

Sure -the but I love him is a hugely strong pull.  For me I felt a stronger pull for marriage and family so when I was trying to convince myself to stay in a not quite right relationship I knew I loved the person (although "in love" wasn't always as apparent) the really hugely strong pull to my goals of marriage and family helped ground me and motivate me to leave the comfort zone.  

For sure the benefits you describe are great for a dating relationship -if I heaven forbid lost my husband and was single again I could see myself wanting that sort of arrangement - fun person to do fun things with who had an adventurous side/trying new things- and potential romance (I mean if I were ready to date again -that would depend on so much!).  But when I was looking for forever those benefits didn't cut it -had that in spades -but not knowing whether he was the right person for me for the long term was too much of a downside for me.

I love eating meals alone -I live in a noisy apartment with my husband and teenager -but if you don't enjoy eating alone you don't have to.  Join a book club (when I was in one we met for dinner to discuss the book), volunteer during the dinner hour then bring something home to eat quickly (I did this for about 7 years weekly - read to kids living at a homeless shelter from 6:30-7:30 then walked home and grabbed something quick like cereal sometimes and was happy to be "alone". ).  

[boltnrun]

3 hours ago, VM22911 said:

I definitely feel like I owe him for moving.

It I lost him I would miss him as he is now. I love him and don't want him to change at all, just our situation.

That IS "changing". And he isn't showing you THROUGH HIS ACTIONS that he is interested in changing his living situation. 

You have two choices: accept that this is how the two of you will be living indefinitely or decide it's not what you want and leave the relationship. Yes, you'll feed sadness. Of course. But if you can't fathom the thought of living with his brother forever you may not have any other choice.

[MissCanuck]

2 hours ago, VM22911 said:

I mean, if he's so comfortable in something unhealthy, isn't pressure to get out of it the only way forward?

No.

He doesn't see it as unheathy, first of all. The same way he can't pressure you into accepting it, you can't pressure him into rejecting it. It will create a lot of resentment and you will almost surely get the short end of the stick, in the end. Would it work if he just pressured you into being okay with all of this? Obviously not. The same is true for him. 

Unless he is motivated on his own to change his entire approach to his attachment to his brother, any changes in your situation won't stick. You are asking him to change who he fundamentally is. It's not just a change of accommodation. It's a much deeper issue. You seem to think they are separate issues, but they are not. 

[Tinydance]

Well first of all I don't even think  anyone can make the argument: "It's his twin so they're part of each other and like the same person." Fraternal twins only share the same percentage of DNA as any brother or sister. So if you took out the word twin and just called "B" his brother then it sounds even more weird. He actually is allowed to spend time with friends and family but he doesn't have to live with his brother and do everything with his brother. 

I also agree that pushing him to move out by pressure wouldn't mean he actually wants to do it. So far he has been resistant to it. Also I think you need to pay attention that he's been with you for four years but he doesn't want to move to a more serious future with you. You said he was avoiding the topic of marriage.

He said something like he made a sacrifice to move out to the new city with you. Maybe he made a sacrifice to move to a new city but I don't think just moving out with you is a sacrifice. It's normal for a serious couple to live alone so it's not actually a sacrifice. Like, if two people were married and one said" "Look what I sacrificed, I moved out alone with you." what does that even mean? He's saying he made a sacrifice to settle down with his own partner, which is just a normal thing that everyone in a relationship does.

[MissCanuck]

5 minutes ago, Tinydance said:

He's saying he made a sacrifice to settle down with his own partner, which is just a normal thing that everyone in a relationship does.

Exactly. 

The very fact that he sees this as a "sacrifice" after 4 years together is mind-boggling, but speaks volumes about how he views this relationship. 

[VM22911]

I think he more means the sacrifice of moving to a new city that is a 6 hour train ride from our old one and technically a new country. 

[Batya33]

1 minute ago, VM22911 said:

I think he more means the sacrifice of moving to a new city that is a 6 hour train ride from our old one and technically a new country. 

I moved 800 miles to a city where I knew no one after 43 years in a major city where I had my immediate family, extended family, close friends, colleagues.  Because we got married and had a baby.  His career required him to relocate where the opportunities are which we spoke of when we got back together.  I agreed back then that if we married I would be the one to relocate.  I had a few restrictions as to place and he was totally fine with those few cities I didn't want to live in/move to.  I never really thought of it as a "sacrifice" -it was the only real way we could be together and he could have his career.  I was planning to be a SAHM for a couple of years then return to my career which I could do in the new city.  Which I did.

He recognizes that I made "sacrifices" to have our lives together but it's not that sort of sacrifice -not the way your bf is describing it  -I got him as my husband, I have a life with him, we have a family -many couples have to make compromises like this.  

[Jibralta]

30 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

He recognizes that I made "sacrifices" to have our lives together but it's not that sort of sacrifice -not the way your bf is describing it  -I got him as my husband, I have a life with him, we have a family -many couples have to make compromises like this.  

That's the way a partner should think--YOU are what they want. They don't have to be coaxed or pressured.

[Andrina]

He was 25 when he bought the house with his brother--old enough to consider all the ramifications of that. A situation that is not conducive to dating with the goal of marriage and privacy with a significant other.

Understand that people who possess what should be dealbreakers, also can have good traits. So his good trait is that he has temporarily moved in with you.

But what would be a dealbreaker for me, and what I feel should be a dealbreaker for anyone, is that he allows his family to dictate major decisions in his life. When he says they will dictate the sort of wedding he has, do you not think they won't dictate  where he lives (such as if you got an amazing job offer 1,000 miles away, and he wanted to move there with you), where you would spend holidays (especially if you wound up having kids together, and you wanted to go to your parents house, instead), and he would also likely not put up barriers to his family and they might pop in without notice to see the grandkids).

You shouldn't be turning a blind eye to predicting a future with this man based on what you're seeing in the present.

Another dealbreaker should be how he chooses to spend his leisure time. I would not be okay with a partner clubbing 3 nights per week. I'm totally okay with a partner having a healthy hobby he engages in a few times a week, and an occasional guys night out, but would never be ok with my guy going to a bar once a week, let alone 3 times a week.

People who are satisfied in relationships have partners who have a healthy balance of time together and time apart. It's not too top-heavy away from a partner.

If you refuse to break up, then this is what I suggest. When you're done with school, move back to where you're comfortable, which sounds like it's not too far from where he lives. It sounds like it's not too far a distance where he could drive to you for dates, so see what type of effort he makes to be in your life. He can work from anywhere, so if he won't eventually move to where you will be happy, why should you settle and live a life where you will always be a third wheel?

The right partner normally expands your world, not minimize it. His outside activities aren't ones that include you. And neither does he put up boundaries when your quality time as a couple is interrupted by his brother.

You've spent so many of your young years in this relationship, that even as you see these issues as problematic, you don't see them as egregious as a person who doesn't love him.

After four years, many women would expect to be engaged by now. You have no idea if this is ever going to happen, and according to him, it could be another 4 or 5 years, so you think dating 9 or 10 years is an okay arrangement, and a risk worth taking?

After this many years especially, if the only way you'll be happy is if there is major change, then you're in the wrong relationship. The trick to happiness is to date someone you don't want to change in a major way.

Take care.

[VM22911]

11 minutes ago, Andrina said:

He was 25 when he bought the house with his brother--old enough to consider all the ramifications of that. A situation that is not conducive to dating with the goal of marriage and privacy with a significant other.

Understand that people who possess what should be dealbreakers, also can have good traits. So his good trait is that he has temporarily moved in with you.

But what would be a dealbreaker for me, and what I feel should be a dealbreaker for anyone, is that he allows his family to dictate major decisions in his life. When he says they will dictate the sort of wedding he has, do you not think they won't dictate  where he lives (such as if you got an amazing job offer 1,000 miles away, and he wanted to move there with you), where you would spend holidays (especially if you wound up having kids together, and you wanted to go to your parents house, instead), and he would also likely not put up barriers to his family and they might pop in without notice to see the grandkids).

You shouldn't be turning a blind eye to predicting a future with this man based on what you're seeing in the present.

Another dealbreaker should be how he chooses to spend his leisure time. I would not be okay with a partner clubbing 3 nights per week. I'm totally okay with a partner having a healthy hobby he engages in a few times a week, and an occasional guys night out, but would never be ok with my guy going to a bar once a week, let alone 3 times a week.

People who are satisfied in relationships have partners who have a healthy balance of time together and time apart. It's not too top-heavy away from a partner.

If you refuse to break up, then this is what I suggest. When you're done with school, move back to where you're comfortable, which sounds like it's not too far from where he lives. It sounds like it's not too far a distance where he could drive to you for dates, so see what type of effort he makes to be in your life. He can work from anywhere, so if he won't eventually move to where you will be happy, why should you settle and live a life where you will always be a third wheel?

The right partner normally expands your world, not minimize it. His outside activities aren't ones that include you. And neither does he put up boundaries when your quality time as a couple is interrupted by his brother.

You've spent so many of your young years in this relationship, that even as you see these issues as problematic, you don't see them as egregious as a person who doesn't love him.

After four years, many women would expect to be engaged by now. You have no idea if this is ever going to happen, and according to him, it could be another 4 or 5 years, so you think dating 9 or 10 years is an okay arrangement, and a risk worth taking?

After this many years especially, if the only way you'll be happy is if there is major change, then you're in the wrong relationship. The trick to happiness is to date someone you don't want to change in a major way.

Take care.

Thank you for your considered and patient response.

Just to clarify, we isnt actually a drinker. When his brother and him go out 3 times a week, its to play for a local football charity with their friends. If he goes out at the weekend with them it's usually just to one of their houses then the cinema. He is pretty tame in that regard.

The moving thing is really so strange. He has looked into countries like Spain and Italy, that have remote visas and asked if I'd consider a year or two elsewhere. Which I 100% would love. But its strange cause this is a man who does all the other things I've described. Which is why I think a part of him feels trapped by his brother and family.

The family thing has sometimes worried me. I'm from a different country entirely, where most of my family is. I have sometimes said it at times feels like he has "home game advantage" 

Only one of his sisters is married thus far, and she married a man who grew up down the street and went to the same school as them. Also a practicing Catholic.

I have sometimes felt cause of this, and how involved the family are, that whoever married the boys was supposed to fit the mould they set. But they are very lovely people. But have started dropping hints about when we were going to move closer to them because of how good the schools are 😒.

I have always said I wouldn't want to be with someone for more than 5 years before an engagement. But then it feels like school has put that on hold and I have told him while I am studying is not the time. So perhaps some things I have said have put him off because I have said I need things more in order first

[boltnrun]

It sounds like you want to remain in this relationship no matter what you would have to give up or tolerate in order to "keep" him. And that's fine. If you feel the benefits outweigh the negatives then of course you'd choose to stay. Just remember that five years from now, if you two are still living with his brother and there's been no movement on marriage or getting your own home together, you went into this with your eyes wide open. 

It would be a shame, however, to wake up five years from now and realize nothing has changed and you're dissatisfied. Starting over then might be more difficult than starting over now. 

[Jaunty]

On 4/12/2023 at 5:26 AM, VM22911 said:

I mean, if he's so comfortable in something unhealthy, isn't pressure to get out of it the only way forward?

Pressure from within himself that's telling him it's time to move forward and make changes.  Not from other people.  

[VM22911]

1 hour ago, boltnrun said:

It sounds like you want to remain in this relationship no matter what you would have to give up or tolerate in order to "keep" him. And that's fine. If you feel the benefits outweigh the negatives then of course you'd choose to stay. Just remember that five years from now, if you two are still living with his brother and there's been no movement on marriage or getting your own home together, you went into this with your eyes wide open. 

It would be a shame, however, to wake up five years from now and realize nothing has changed and you're dissatisfied. Starting over then might be more difficult than starting over now. 

I get that.

I 100% plan on taking your advice to start looking for my own place after I graduate and see where that takes me.

Who knows, I may land a tour (as people do in my line of work) save lots of money and get my own place. We'll see what effort he makes then. Cause I'm sick of waiting for my life to start when I'm stuck back there

[Batya33]

2 hours ago, VM22911 said:

But its strange cause this is a man who does all the other things I've described. Which is why I think a part of him feels trapped by his brother and family.

The problem isn't feeling trapped. The problem is how he reacts to feeling trapped.  Or he might feel safer this way rather than trapped.

[tattoobunnie]

The OP's story reminds me of the characters in BEEF.  One of the main characters is so codependent on his little brother, he always does things to hold him back, which holds him back.

Quite honestly, I know lots of twins, and they don't live together, and have their own families and interests.  What you have is just a dude who doesn't think of you as top priority.  Imagine another 4 years where you are still an after thought?  It hasn't gotten better in 4 years, it won't in another 4.

[Wiseman2]

1 hour ago, VM22911 said:

 it feels like school has put that on hold and I have told him while I am studying is not the time. Cause I'm sick of waiting for my life to start when I'm stuck back there

Unfortunately it seems like enrolling in school is what is holding you up financially and otherwise.

[Andrina]

On 4/8/2023 at 6:31 PM, VM22911 said:

Until I moved in and now my partner and I are left to do everything. I watch them go out together 3 times a week to play sports with their friends while I sit at home. Which is fine, but then they come home and play video games, often late into the night and I have to go to bed alone.  I felt trapped and isolated.

 

On 4/8/2023 at 6:31 PM, VM22911 said:

Although he has felt very isolated and bored in the new city.

So aren't these two quotes very telling that what he finds the most satisfying is spending time with his friends and brother, since he does so about 4 nights per week, since you say he also hangs with them on the weekend? There are 7 days in a week, so that's the majority of the week. The norm is for couples to be with each other in after work hours the majority of the week, with no more than a day or two spent elsewhere.

My husband and I spend time with other couples, and have also had group get togethers. Do none of his friends have girlfriends for double dating? Are there no group get-togethers with both men and women? 

So he feels isolated and bored with just you? You're sugarcoating it with the words "in the new city." He doesn't know how to enjoy your company, besides, I'm assuming, being intimate with you.

So in your quote, you felt isolated and trapped while in his house, and now he feels isolated and bored outside of his house.

If you two can't jibe on a location both will be happy with, one of you is slated for a lifetime of unhappiness if you stay together.

[VM22911]

4 hours ago, tattoobunnie said:

The OP's story reminds me of the characters in BEEF.  One of the main characters is so codependent on his little brother, he always does things to hold him back, which holds him back.

It's funny you say that because his brother has said how good it is and recommended we watch it