Twin Troubles

[Tinydance]

3 hours ago, Batya33 said:

I think you're not being independent enough.  Get a side hustle that allows you to live independently of him and be financially independent.  Then from that perspective and lifestyle decide if he is the man you want to marry and decide also if he was never going to marry you how long would you stay.  I would stop sharing physical living space with him in this situation -show yourself you are able to stand on your own two feet and also save up $ for your nest egg.  

Yes I think you need to show him that you're not going to put up with all this. You basically need to ultimatum him at this point and say you want the two of you to have your own life, otherwise you're out of there. But he knows you won't be out of there because you have nowhere else to go. It's not controlling to just say to him, stop being joined to your brother or else. Because this behaviour just isn't normal and sharing a room with your brother until you're 23 isn't normal. He needs to realise no woman is going to put up with this because nobody would. But you've been letting him get away with it so he has no incentive to stop this behaviour.

[VM22911]

55 minutes ago, Tinydance said:

Yes I think you need to show him that you're not going to put up with all this. You basically need to ultimatum him at this point and say you want the two of you to have your own life, otherwise you're out of there. But he knows you won't be out of there because you have nowhere else to go. It's not controlling to just say to him, stop being joined to your brother or else. Because this behaviour just isn't normal and sharing a room with your brother until you're 23 isn't normal. He needs to realise no woman is going to put up with this because nobody would. But you've been letting him get away with it so he has no incentive to stop this behaviour.

I think you've hit the nail on the head really.

At the beginning of our relationship I was but better at asserting my boundaries but it just felt like I was picking fights all the time and it was exhausting. I felt I had to start picking my battles because he is never ever going to see anything problematic with his relationship with his brother. But I do need to start speaking up more, hopefully in a way that he can be receptive to 

He's not the type of man that will be pushed into everything. Everything has to happen at his pace. So really an ultimatum is needed but I do fear it would be a case of "alright, see ya from him". I think he believes if I can't handle the twin thing, someone better will.

But maybe that's just the sign that things may not be right

[Tinydance]

43 minutes ago, VM22911 said:

I think you've hit the nail on the head really.

At the beginning of our relationship I was but better at asserting my boundaries but it just felt like I was picking fights all the time and it was exhausting. I felt I had to start picking my battles because he is never ever going to see anything problematic with his relationship with his brother. But I do need to start speaking up more, hopefully in a way that he can be receptive to 

He's not the type of man that will be pushed into everything. Everything has to happen at his pace. So really an ultimatum is needed but I do fear it would be a case of "alright, see ya from him". I think he believes if I can't handle the twin thing, someone better will.

But maybe that's just the sign that things may not be right

You know if I'm going to be honest, this whole situation really doesn't sound good. The one thing that jumps out at me is your boyfriend actually never wants to compromise with you and he also disregards you. Let's just put his brother out of the picture for a minute. I think at the end of the day it doesn't matter who he's focusing most of his attention on but it's clear that it's not actually you. You've been together four years so you should be someone he really values and values your company and your opinions. But here it's not the case and he seems to care way more to have the company of someone else and always input from someone else. In this case his brother. It's been going like this for four years and basically your boyfriend is sending a clear message: "Everything is on my terms". 

I think what you need to really focus on here is you've been telling him your wants and needs, he's not listening. He's a 29-year-old man who basically always puts his brother and himself above you. There is the saying: "Two's company, three's a crowd". You are the girlfriend of four years but yet you're the odd one out. All this to me really doesn't seem normal at all. I think you're wasting your time on this guy. 

[Batya33]

I’d stop the self double talk. You speak up in a way that is consistent with reasonable self confidence and self respect. At a time when he is not working or hangry or rushing somewhere. Not in a walking on eggshells hoping he’ll be “receptive “.  
ultimatums are kind of foolish. If he never stopped living with his brother and never wanted to marry you - meaning status quo forever how long would you stay ?

so you tell him how you feel about the status quo. No ultimatum. At your internal deadline time if nothing has changed you tell him when you are moving out. No ultimatum. 
sure he might believe you are replaceable.  
Had I said no to my future husband about relocating for his career and marriage and family in the future when we discussed these goals when we decided to get back together I have no doubt he would have looked to replace me. Same on my end. Same if he’d changed his mind about marriage or family. Those would have been dealbreakers even though I loved him. 

[VM22911]

8 minutes ago, Tinydance said:

You know if I'm going to be honest, this whole situation really doesn't sound good. The one thing that jumps out at me is your boyfriend actually never wants to compromise with you and he also disregards you. Let's just put his brother out of the picture for a minute. I think at the end of the day it doesn't matter who he's focusing most of his attention on but it's clear that it's not actually you. You've been together four years so you should be someone he really values and values your company and your opinions. But here it's not the case and he seems to care way more to have the company of someone else and always input from someone else. In this case his brother. It's been going like this for four years and basically your boyfriend is sending a clear message: "Everything is on my terms". 

I think what you need to really focus on here is you've been telling him your wants and needs, he's not listening. He's a 29-year-old man who basically always puts his brother and himself about you. There is the saying: "Two's company, three's a crowd". You are the girlfriend of four years but yet you're the odd one out. All this to me really doesn't seem normal at all. I think you're wasting your time on this guy. 

I would say, he has managed to compromise by moving out to a new city with me while I study. He knows no one here and his mental health has suffered as a result as he is a remote worker so isn't out all day like I am

[Tinydance]

11 minutes ago, VM22911 said:

I would say, he has managed to compromise by moving out to a new city with me while I study. He knows no one here and his mental health has suffered as a result as he is a remote worker so isn't out all day like I am

Yes but he knows it's temporary. He knows when you finish the course he's moving back home living with the brother again. No matter what you say or how you try to push him to get away from the brother, he doesn't want to.

[catfeeder]

Your BF has no exit plan. I'm not sure of your age or your plans for a family of your own, but you'll need to decide at some point whether spending your fertility years living in a frat house with a guy who has no immediate plans to offer what you envision for yourself is what you'll want to continue to do.

Meanwhile, rent-free existence appears to be your only advantage in this situation.

[Wiseman2]

9 hours ago, VM22911 said:

 his mental health has suffered as a result as he is a remote worker so isn't out all day like I am

This is sort of sad. If you live in their house with the two of them, your mental health suffers and if he lives like a couple with just the two of you, his mental health suffers.

[MissCanuck]

Am I correct in assuming your boyfriend essentially calls all the shots in your relationship, OP?

I am getting the strong impression that he's largely a "my way or the highway"-type of guy. Yes, he's living with you in a different city right now, but it seems he's also making it clear tht he's not happy there. And you are walking in eggsshells even bringing up concerns to him. None of that is a good sign. 

I have to wonder, were these two very sheltered by their parents growing up? They seem rather socially stunted and emotionally under-developed. 

[smackie9]

Your BF can't and won't live without his brother due to his separation anxiety. If you want to see change, you will need to get him into counselling because their attachment with each other is prohibiting them from moving on with their lives independently.

[Wiseman2]

On 4/8/2023 at 6:31 PM, VM22911 said:

 . The house is a mess, his brother keeps interupting our time together and I am just sick of the sight of him all over again. ...

Unfortunately, the brother co-owns the house. It's his house.  In this situation, you're the houseguest. Technically the brother could ask you to leave at any time because he's the owner. 

[Batya33]

For about 7 years I dated a twin. During that entire time he shared a two bedroom apartment with his twin sister. She didn't date much.  She was a very good person and worked really hard, had friends but not the loud party type.  We were in our early 30s.  They lived in a high rent district so this let them afford to do so.  She and I were not particularly close and she was a little cold and distant with me. I had my own one bedroom apartment a 15 minute walk away. 

The reason it worked fine is because they were very close but not attached at the hip.  They had mutual friends and separate friends. He worked out with her which nights it was ok for me to stay and he stayed at mine quite often.  We never lived together.  Had we done so he would have been fine moving out with notice to her.  Sometimes I found the closeness a bit much -he was quite protective of her which was sweet but a bit much.

However because I had my own place, because we stayed at my place a good amount of the time we were all very adult about the arrangement and I didn't care about comments people made about how odd it was for 30 something twins to share an apartment.  I thought it made good financial sense.

It can be done in a mature reasonable way and I think this situation by contrast is not and the OP is trying to justify it because of the financial benefits to her and her desire to continue working in the arts and not making enough to grow a nest egg and be financially independent.  

[VM22911]

10 hours ago, catfeeder said:

Your BF has no exit plan. I'm not sure of your age or your plans for a family of your own, but you'll need to decide at some point whether spending your fertility years living in a frat house with a guy who has no immediate plans to offer what you envision for yourself is what you'll want to continue to do.

Meanwhile, rent-free existence appears to be your only advantage in this situation.

We are also able to spend some more time together this way. When we lived separately I would only ever see him on the weekends 

[VM22911]

7 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

This is sort of sad. If you live in their house with the two of them, your mental health suffers and if he lives like a couple with just the two of you, his mental health suffers.

I think he suffers more here because it is a new city. It's far away from our old one, and it's not as clean, friendly or nice. He has no friends out here

[VM22911]

7 hours ago, MissCanuck said:

Am I correct in assuming your boyfriend essentially calls all the shots in your relationship, OP?

I am getting the strong impression that he's largely a "my way or the highway"-type of guy. Yes, he's living with you in a different city right now, but it seems he's also making it clear tht he's not happy there. And you are walking in eggsshells even bringing up concerns to him. None of that is a good sign. 

I have to wonder, were these two very sheltered by their parents growing up? They seem rather socially stunted and emotionally under-developed. 

We would say I probably call a lot of the shots.

He's very set in his ways and stubborn but not in an aggressive way.

They grew up in a somewhat financially unstable home at times. But they had lots of disney holidays every year, went to a very well funded school and spent Sundays in church and on church retreats.

They grew up around a lot of like minded people, not a lot of diversity or difference. So I would say sheltered in some respects

[VM22911]

5 hours ago, smackie9 said:

Your BF can't and won't live without his brother due to his separation anxiety. If you want to see change, you will need to get him into counselling because their attachment with each other is prohibiting them from moving on with their lives independently.

I have mentioned couples therapy before but he is quite resistant to it for a few reasons

[VM22911]

2 hours ago, Batya33 said:

For about 7 years I dated a twin. During that entire time he shared a two bedroom apartment with his twin sister. She didn't date much.  She was a very good person and worked really hard, had friends but not the loud party type.  We were in our early 30s.  They lived in a high rent district so this let them afford to do so.  She and I were not particularly close and she was a little cold and distant with me. I had my own one bedroom apartment a 15 minute walk away. 

The reason it worked fine is because they were very close but not attached at the hip.  They had mutual friends and separate friends. He worked out with her which nights it was ok for me to stay and he stayed at mine quite often.  We never lived together.  Had we done so he would have been fine moving out with notice to her.  Sometimes I found the closeness a bit much -he was quite protective of her which was sweet but a bit much.

However because I had my own place, because we stayed at my place a good amount of the time we were all very adult about the arrangement and I didn't care about comments people made about how odd it was for 30 something twins to share an apartment.  I thought it made good financial sense.

It can be done in a mature reasonable way and I think this situation by contrast is not and the OP is trying to justify it because of the financial benefits to her and her desire to continue working in the arts and not making enough to grow a nest egg and be financially independent.  

I think my situation is compounded by the fact that their set up is so bizarre.

If I got my own place it would be rather far from them as I wouldn't want to live in the burbs, and if his twin has the car for whatever reason or plan, I would just never see him.

I managed to support myself in a different place in the nice part of the city (with a roomate) just fine in the first 2 and a half years of our relationship. Covid made it harder but I was doing it. But covid meant we couldn't see each other because households weren't allowed to mix and we missed each other. My roommate was a hoarder which caused a mouse issue. I just hit a point where it didn't make sense to pay so much money to be stuck in a filthy apartment with bad Internet in a pandemic, stuck away from my partner. This was the situation we were in when he asked me to move in. So yes, it made financial sense but also we thought it would improve both our mental health's and move our relationship forward 

[MissCanuck]

30 minutes ago, VM22911 said:

They grew up around a lot of like minded people, not a lot of diversity or difference. So I would say sheltered in some respects

That's not really what I mean by sheltered. 

What I mean is that these two grown men don't seem to be able to cope without each other. Were their parents over-protective? Did they try to keep them at home a lot? Overly-involved in their lives? 

And if you call a lot of the shots, why are you nervous raising legitimate concerns with him? You seem to be hesitant to assert yourself in the relationship. 

[VM22911]

10 minutes ago, MissCanuck said:

That's not really what I mean by sheltered. 

What I mean is that these two grown men don't seem to be able to cope without each other. Were their parents over-protective? Did they try to keep them at home a lot? Overly-involved in their lives? 

And if you call a lot of the shots, why are you nervous raising legitimate concerns with him? You seem to be hesitant to assert yourself in the relationship. 

Their parents lumped them together a lot and treated them as a unit. They have 5 sisters and they were "the boys" sometimes they just referred to them as an amalgamation of their 2 names. Hearing about their childhood I'd say they were allowed to get away with bad behaviour more than their sisters.

I dont think I call a lot of the shots, I just imagine he thinks I do. He once stated he compromises a lot because he watches a lot of shows that I like.

I think I fear he will just say we'll leave one day but give no concrete plans or timeline. Also, I worry he thinks I overreact and our living situation is completely tenable

[MissCanuck]

38 minutes ago, VM22911 said:

He once stated he compromises a lot because he watches a lot of shows that I like.

Tell me you are joking. 

38 minutes ago, VM22911 said:

I worry he thinks I overreact and our living situation is completely tenable

He very clearly does think that. Or rather, he doesn't want to change his arrangement with his brother. He likes it that way. You said he has never had a girlfriend before, right? Why do you suppose that is, and how did you meet him? 

[VM22911]

35 minutes ago, MissCanuck said:

Tell me you are joking. 

 You said he has never had a girlfriend before, right? Why do you suppose that is, and how did you meet him? 

Unfortunately I'm not joking.

I think because he's spent his whole life with someone exactly like him, any difference feels like a compromise.

We met on a dating app.

He says he was hesitant to date when he was younger because his parents would always tease him about interacting with girls and it made him feel pressured and anxious.

We began dating when he was 24. I think he just got comfortable and complacent and didn't feel the need to look for a partner. Because he would actively have to look. He works in a massively male dominated field and he and his brother just hang out with the same friends they've had since they were teenagers and all these friends are equally sheltered, largely catholic and therefore a little wary of intimacy.

My mother felt there was no way it was true that he'd never dated anyone until she met him

[MissCanuck]

58 minutes ago, VM22911 said:

My mother felt there was no way it was true that he'd never dated anyone until she met him

And what did she observe when she met him? 

[VM22911]

4 minutes ago, MissCanuck said:

And what did she observe when she met him? 

She thought he was quiet. Doesn't say much. She likes him well enough I think but never tells me how she really feels about partners

[catfeeder]

9 hours ago, VM22911 said:

I think I fear he will just say we'll leave one day but give no concrete plans or timeline.

That's exactly what his IS doing.

Quote

Also, I worry he thinks I overreact and our living situation is completely tenable

Sure, it's not only tenable but desirable for him.

Sounds like he's giving you a choice: take it or leave it.

[Wiseman2]

13 hours ago, VM22911 said:

If I got my own place it would be rather far from them as I wouldn't want to live in the burbs, and if his twin has the car for whatever reason or plan, I would just never see him.

Unfortunately relationships of convenience are far from convenient.  For now, living in a better environment rent free is working out, but it's true that the brother co-owns the house and  could ask you to move out at any time. 

Try to focus less on their family dynamics because that isn't going to change.