In love with a friend, passed over for a younger woman

[Batya33]

I also think you couldn't have been a good friend to him with how you had this massive crush AND acted on it as you described. I had a crush like this for years on a colleague and we also became good friends but I always accepted on a healthy level he wasn't that into me, I refrained from reading into "signs" and I was supportive of his relationships.  Our friendship lasted over 20 years- it's actually faded during covid but I hope will resume someday.

  I think since I made myself keep my distance I was able to "get over" the crush and continue a close friendship.  Also I realized our personalities wouldn't have been too suited for an LTR. 

So -it can work in a reality based-grounded way and where the priorities are on the friendship not on the challenge of winning over the unattainable.

[JoyfulCompany]

OP, I know my post will sound harsh but, please, try to not read it as accusatory towards you (because that's not the intention) but more as things you need to think of and work on.
I'll join the "take a good look at this man to start understanding yourself better" route, too.

I say this with still a huge concern on my mind - since we're not here to convict the guy, unfortunately it doesn't matter if he's really a groomer or not. But with that said:

1. OP, since you think he might be a groomer and that suspicion doesn't affect your level of attraction and yearning... well, that's a huge concern about your mental health, self-esteem and boundaries.

2. His comments about the power imbalance that is part of his preferences for/attraction in a partner may not necessarily hint at children/teens grooming but it does hint towards some kind of fake sense of superiority and therefore - potential abuse (and his freudian slip gives me the chills!!!). Why? Because, if he likes to feel on top of his partners, he'll most likely try to stay on top at any cost. 
But, speculations aside - this man refuses to become a true adult with all the responsibilities that come off with that. And you refuse to let go of the fantasy of being with him despite that. Again, huge concern for how you view yourself and living in a fantasy world is another type of refusal to "grow up". So, you're mirroring each other in that regard.

3. There's no person on Earth that is interested in you and doesn't try to make it known for 10+ years. None. You were in regular contact, you had moments alone - just the two of you...
Even you yourself tried to hint at your feelings previously and it led to nowhere. This guy knew you were into him and did nothing. Knowing that someone doesn't want to be with you but it not affecting your level of attraction towards/interest in them is another clear sign of self-esteem a few feet under the surface.

4. And, yes, you were incompatible for a romantic relationship this whole time. He has entirely other preferences, healthy or not.

5. One of your bigger concerns is that it will be inappropriate to hang out alone for hours once he gets married? Since you now know he has a fiancé (and you have feelings for him), it's already inappropriate, marriage won't change things that much. Also, you're not concerned about the huge pile of other red flags but you feel threatened that your time together will be limited? You want the fantasy to continue.

So...
I'm not sure you ever wanted to actually get married to him. Seems to me you always wanted to have the safe fantasy of "one day getting married to him". There's no rejection, incompatibility or other types of inconveniences in fantasies and it's so easy to overlook red flags - you can cut out only the parts that fit your narrative. Since you don't feel enough/deserving/loveable to have this relationship NOW, you console yourself you'll get better and will have it IN THE FUTURE.
So this fantasy was also a great fuel and inspiration for you to work on yourself and advance in some areas. But now it hurts because it's all falling apart. You used to identify with it, it used to take so much space in your mind&soul and this space is now becoming a huge dark abyss of "shattered old", "unknown new", lack of direction and not knowing your true self for the last 10+ years. It's really critical to have mental support as you're staring at this abyss so I commend you for seeking help.

I understand that you had your reasons to maintain this fantasy and that you've been through a lot. I know it's very scary to let it go. But I'm also absolutely sure that when illusions get levelled to the ground it's a chance to rebuild a stable life and identity for yourself out of your own soul's "truth bricks". Please, be compassionate with yourself, be patient and believe you will come out on the other side stronger and happier than ever. And tons of good luck to you.

[Jaunty]

19 hours ago, DarkCh0c0 said:

Yes. That, but he's also a groomer. He was involved with a girl since her teens. 

I have doubts about this.  The OP is a very biased reporter.  Sorry OP - but the whole thing is coming from your perspective and emotional place of being angry and hurt right now.   

 

 

[Wonderstruck]

On 1/6/2023 at 12:09 AM, saren said:

He said he wants someone he can “look down on” - then he corrected himself - he wants someone he can look after in a paternalistic way. In other (ie my) words, he wants that adulation and power imbalance of being an older man with a very sheltered young girl who looks up to him.

How did you not completely shut down and lose all attraction to him after he admitted this?

He's no prize and you are missing out on NOTHING.

 

On 1/6/2023 at 12:09 AM, saren said:

He continued that when he looks at me, he sees us as equals, or even that I’m someone who has surpassed him. I’m a little older than him (he pointed this out), I’m well established in my career, I make more money than him and I have my own home/mortgage.

If this is a deal-breaker for him, you dodged a bullet.

Imagine being with a guy who feels THREATENED by you being his equal, being well-established in your career, making more money than him, and having your own home/mortgage.

Oh, and being ONE YEAR OLDER THAN HIM.

I feel very sorry for his future wife.

Run for your life, sis.

[Batya33]

37 minutes ago, Wonderstruck said:

How did you not completely shut down and lose all attraction to him after he admitted this?

He's no prize and you are missing out on NOTHING.

 

If this is a deal-breaker for him, you dodged a bullet.

Imagine being with a guy who feels THREATENED by you being his equal, being well-established in your career, making more money than him, and having your own home/mortgage.

Oh, and being ONE YEAR OLDER THAN HIM.

I feel very sorry for his future wife.

Run for your life, sis.

I mean sure if he put it this way she is not right for him - but there are many couples where both like that arrangement - and it depends what "looking down" means -again- from her biased perspective.  Some couples like the dynamic of one person -usually the male- being the more successful/smarter/provider and the other person (usually female) enjoys being taken care of in that way and taking care of "her man" as a traditional housewife and/or mother.  Totally not for me -but if both people want that, if both people are secure in themselves and also are turned on by that dynamic, more power to them. 

I also think it's fine if she was "too much" for him romantically -I know some men assumed I was "intimidating" because I was well educated and had a very successful career -even though I took off my Career Hat in personal and romantic situations -I got labeled/categorized just because of who I was on paper.

  I didn't want to be in a relationship where the man would feel intimidated and I also didn't want to be afraid to talk about (but not brag about!) my career and successes and career related ambitions.  Just like I wanted to hear about my husband's ambitions and career successes -and to be there for him as a support for the less than successes. 

Also if for the ten years she pined away for him she had no idea he had this penchant -romantically-for "the little woman" type -well I doubt that.  i think she knew and ignored it given her self-described fantasy limerance and intensity about him -even moving to be closer to him -she knew but ignored until she couldn't ignore once he was taken and didn't want to be with her.

[waffle]

On 1/6/2023 at 12:09 AM, saren said:

He said he wants someone he can “look down on” - then he corrected himself - he wants someone he can look after in a paternalistic way. In other (ie my) words, he wants that adulation and power imbalance of being an older man with a very sheltered young girl who looks up to him. He continued that when he looks at me, he sees us as equals, or even that I’m someone who has surpassed him.

 

This is a whole lot more common than you might think.  I'm sorry you spent ten years on this.  

In all that time you never suspected this side of him?  I am thinking that you weren't quite as good of friends as you wanted to (or were led to) believe.

I will part ways with some posters here and say it was a GOOD thing you asked why he never considered you.  The answer isn't always easy to hear but it can ultimately help you on your journey to get over him faster, knowing that there really was nothing  you could've done differently.  You were "too good" for him.  Take comfort in that and when you're ready you can set out to find someone who wants an equal partner.

[Batya33]

4 minutes ago, waffle said:

This is a whole lot more common than you might think.  I'm sorry you spent ten years on this.  

In all that time you never suspected this side of him?  I am thinking that you weren't quite as good of friends as you wanted to (or were led to) believe.

I will part ways with some posters here and say it was a GOOD thing you asked why he never considered you.  The answer isn't always easy to hear but it can ultimately help you on your journey to get over him faster, knowing that there really was nothing  you could've done differently.  You were "too good" for him.  Take comfort in that and when you're ready you can set out to find someone who wants an equal partner.

I think it was fine to ask him but not at that time - not when he was already with someone else. "Equal" means different things to different people.  I wanted fair -I wanted equal as far as financial stability, work ethic, career ambition -meaning compatible not as in technically "equal" but no I didn't need someone equally into doing the daily work of caring for a child, didn't need someone equally into more "feminine" stuff -and to me "fair" and compatible was much more important than equal in all ways. Yes I only wanted someone who saw me as equally capable and intelligent and where I was admired and respected as an equal partner. 

I doubt she was too good for him.  She simply was not what he was looking for.

But in a romantic relationship it gets mushier/subjective as opposed to a professional relationship or even a platonic friendship.

[Jaunty]

In the 2016 thread about this guy, you wrote about how religious he is.   If he's a member of a fundamentalist church, it would be predictable that he could choose a young, impressionable and inexperienced (maybe even a virgin) bride.   And that he would not ever want to be with a woman who earned more, had more, and was older and possibly more experienced than he.  

[catfeeder]

On 1/6/2023 at 5:07 PM, saren said:

I don’t know.  That’s why I said it was like an addiction.  I took some advice of the people above and went into debt today to book some therapy.

(they advised therapy, not debt.)

Hopefully, someone with different education than mine can crack this. 

I don't know where you live, but in in the US and your job has an Employee Assistance Program (EAP) you can book 3 or 4 free sessions per 'event'. Compare the EAP therapists with the list of providers on your insurance plan, then try one who is on both lists. This way, if you like the therapist after the free visits, you can continue with that one afterward.

You may also be able to use the free sessions to negotiate continued care with reduced co-pays before moving on the paid sessions.

Head high, and write more if it helps.

[Kwothe28]

9 hours ago, waffle said:

You were "too good" for him.

Actually nobody rejects you because you were "too good" for them. If I can be with Alexandra Daddario, I would be, I would certanly not reject her because "she is too beautiful for me". That kind of stuff just doesnt happen, if he wanted to be with her, he would be. But she just doesnt fit into what he seeks. And that is a reality of it and that is fine. Everybody is entilted to seek what they think its best for them. No matter if they end up with that at the end and if it is actually best. 

Same with OP. She thought he was the best for her and kept that fantasy for 10 years. So now she is 39. Spended her best years on somebody she calls a groomer. Because she was passed for a younger woman. I am glad she decided for therapy. Because if she spent 10 years into fantasy world, not even dating anybody else and waiting for him, therapy is absolutely needed to unravel why and to seek healthier attachments into her future.

[waffle]

On 1/6/2023 at 12:09 AM, saren said:

 . . . He continued that when he looks at me, he sees us as equals, or even that I’m someone who has surpassed him.

 

Unclench, people.  By "too good" I'm referring to the above, and that's also why I put it in quotes.

[Batya33]

1 minute ago, waffle said:

Unclench, people.  By "too good" I'm referring to the above, and that's also why I put it in quotes.

That doesn't mean he is not into her because of that -he's just explaining how he sees her and that he's not interested in her as a serious romantic partner.  Also I know of many people who have surpasssed me in a number of ways -professional sucess, fitness, popularity - and I don't think they're "too good" for me - they're just more successful than me.  Also since she confronted him he may have wanted to soften the blow with that sort of "compliment".  

[waffle]

1 minute ago, Batya33 said:

That doesn't mean he is not into her because of that -he's just explaining how he sees her and that he's not interested in her as a serious romantic partner.  Also I know of many people who have surpasssed me in a number of ways -professional sucess, fitness, popularity - and I don't think they're "too good" for me - they're just more successful than me.  Also since she confronted him he may have wanted to soften the blow with that sort of "compliment".  

Sounds like overthinking.  I always take things at face value until proven different.

Men really do (in general) tend to date/marry down the social ladder.  This guy has specifically said that's what he's doing.  It's less so in modern times, admittedly, but the "social ladder" is still there for the most part.  If the guy at the local Burger King drive-thru sees me drive up in my expensive car, unless he's running an agenda he's going to think twice (plus I'm old enough to be his mother).  A guy driving up in an expensive car and flirts with the girl at the window, entirely different situation.  Facts.

[Batya33]

10 minutes ago, waffle said:

Sounds like overthinking.  I always take things at face value until proven different.

Men really do (in general) tend to date/marry down the social ladder.  This guy has specifically said that's what he's doing.  It's less so in modern times, admittedly, but the "social ladder" is still there for the most part.  If the guy at the local Burger King drive-thru sees me drive up in my expensive car, unless he's running an agenda he's going to think twice (plus I'm old enough to be his mother).  A guy driving up in an expensive car and flirts with the girl at the window, entirely different situation.  Facts.

To me at face value he was never that into her, still isn't. Judging him for why and overthinking the excuses he gave her to me is going beyond what's necessary other than to soothe her ego and paint him into someone not worthy of her "his loss". 

She concocted a fantasy for many years and lied to herself and told herself if she moved closer to him, was in his face, in his space he'd end up feeling the same way.  Not how it works.  I had a friend who did this in college -she basically showed up wherever this frat guy was, did all the same activities, etc and eventually he noticed her and they dated for 3 years. She was over the moon about him.  It sounded like he never was.  They broke up when he cheated on her with her best friend.  I believe he married that person.

Yes we have different understandings of "better than" - if someone wants to date someone who is compatible as far as wealth/material things/financial values -and if compatible means they feel more comfortable making more than their partner/being more professionally sucessful I get that - it's just that person's desire -not necessarily about "social ladder" or anything broader. 

I had men not want to date me because it was obvious without my telling them my salary at the time far exceeded theirs and in their field it always would.  I didn't date men who I found materialistic whether they were wealthy or not.

But in this specific situation he's telling her that she is too much for him -likely because he senses loud and clear how much she wants him - I mean she moved to be closer to him and it doesn't matter if she never confessed -she admits to fantasizing/being over the top -he knew and didn't act on it because he'd find her overwhelming as a partner.  If the issue was huge income disparity he'd have said that. 

[waffle]

12 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

To me at face value he was never that into her, still isn't. Judging him for why and overthinking the excuses he gave her to me is going beyond what's necessary other than to soothe her ego and paint him into someone not worthy of her "his loss". 

I get it.  Sort of.  I really think that at the end of the day whatever helps you (meaning the OP) put things in their box, put it on a shelf, and move along mentally, there's no harm in believing what makes sense to you regardless of whether or not it's technically accurate.  There may of course be other reasons but they don't matter--at this point it is pure speculation.  He said he wants someone to "look down on" and his actions reflect that.  Were I the OP I'd go with it and take steps to get past it (which is really the only option she has anyway).

[Batya33]

1 hour ago, waffle said:

I get it.  Sort of.  I really think that at the end of the day whatever helps you (meaning the OP) put things in their box, put it on a shelf, and move along mentally, there's no harm in believing what makes sense to you regardless of whether or not it's technically accurate.  There may of course be other reasons but they don't matter--at this point it is pure speculation.  He said he wants someone to "look down on" and his actions reflect that.  Were I the OP I'd go with it and take steps to get past it (which is really the only option she has anyway).

If I were the OP I'd assume he was never into me, assume that I am biased because I was intensely into him and upended my life for him for many years and lived in a fantasy world and see as irrelevant what his "reasons" are or how I interpret the reasons because people who want to be together are together.  I think the harm is that if she goes with something negative about his character it will taint her perspective and end up impeding healing because of the negativity and bitterness and perpetuate the self-dishonesty.  To me it's much cleaner and speedier to assume she got confirmation that he doesn't see her as a potential romantic partner, the end.  Giving into indulging what your fantasy needs or your ego needs often ends up being unhealthy long term.

[waffle]

18 hours ago, Batya33 said:

If I were the OP I'd assume he was never into me, assume that I am biased because I was intensely into him and upended my life for him for many years and lived in a fantasy world and see as irrelevant what his "reasons" are or how I interpret the reasons because people who want to be together are together.  I think the harm is that if she goes with something negative about his character it will taint her perspective and end up impeding healing because of the negativity and bitterness and perpetuate the self-dishonesty.  To me it's much cleaner and speedier to assume she got confirmation that he doesn't see her as a potential romantic partner, the end.  Giving into indulging what your fantasy needs or your ego needs often ends up being unhealthy long term.

Perhaps.

At any rate, regardless of reasons real or perceived, ten years was way too long for this to go on--I think we can agree on that much.  

I really liked @Andrina's comments here:
Like anything, it takes time to heal and there are no shortcuts to that. And if you don't learn a lesson from that experience, you will repeat the same pattern. That would mean that if you're interested in a man, you don't let more than two months go by without finding out if dating is in the picture or not. If he doesn't ask, either you do or you don't, and then move on if he's not interested. Getting an answer should be your goal. Making yourself temporally vulnerable is far less egregious than wasting a decade on someone who doesn't share your interest. And no longer be close buddies with a guy you want more with. Stick to female friends. This will ensure you're fully emotionally free to bond with a guy who has asked you out.

I would absolutely employ this going forward.

[boltnrun]

The only part I disagree with is the suggestion to stick with only female friends. I find that unnecessary even in a committed relationship. I don't want to date or sleep with every man I've been around in a social setting or who I interact with regularly. And they certainly don't want to sleep with me although there are those who insist a man never spends time with a woman unless he wants to have sex with her. I can assure you that's not the case.

But I do agree with ceasing all contact and certainly no more one on one time with this particular man. 

[MissCanuck]

OP, this was the blindside you probably needed. 

You've been living in a fantasy about this man for way too long, and have built your life around him. As far as I can tell, he has never expressed a romantic interest in you. Now it is time you face reality. 

A good therapist can help you understand why you preferred the comfort of your fantasy life rather than the reality of what was actually happening around you. 

 

[Coily]

OP 10 years is far too long to pine for someone that doesn't flirt or push those boundaries in a meaningful way.

If impugning his character is the only way you can move past him, then so be it. However since you know nothing of the reality of the relationship it is very detrimental to you long term to continue to obsess about him (even in a negative way). The friendzone sucks, but this moving closer to him smacks of stalker-ish behavior, and this he's a groomer etc smacks of "If I can't have him nobody can." Please let this one fade, becasue if you had ever cared for the man you'd be just as sad, but also have a sliver of joy for hi finding someone who made him happy.

[catfeeder]

On 1/8/2023 at 3:51 PM, waffle said:

I really think that at the end of the day whatever helps you (meaning the OP) put things in their box, put it on a shelf, and move along mentally, there's no harm in believing what makes sense to you regardless of whether or not it's technically accurate. 

I agree with this, and I always have. It makes no sense to split hairs on technicalities when the best advice I've ever heard suggests that we adopt whatever 'story' best helps us to decathect from a person who is either not good for us or does not want us--for whatever reason.

If I need to tell myself that I'm 'better than' someone, it's not against the law. It's probably not accurate, but if it moves me forward, chances are, I'll look back from a new perspective someday and get more honest with myself.

Grief is one of those things we need to navigate the best ways we can muster, and as long as we aren't harming anyone else, we get to believe whatever we want in order to get through it.

In such a case of a 10 YEAR fantasy, chances are that applying more fantasy will be your go-to method to get past this. Nobody here can say whether this is the most opportune time to attempt permanent dis-illusion-ment, but I think you recognize that you'll certainly need to make that your goal if you don't want to keep wrecking your life.

[Batya33]

I’d avoid the jaded bitter/ his loss / he’s flawed story as that risks tainting and skewing perspective and can hurt future relationships. 

[boltnrun]

I initially chose to believe my toxic ex had borderline personality disorder. This belief removed any responsibility for how the relationship was conducted from both of us. He couldn't help it and because he couldn't help it, it wasn't wrong for me to stick around for FOUR YEARS of mistreatment. Of course he doesn't have BPD. I know that now. It was a coping mechanism for me. But all that did was delay the inevitable accounting I had to make of myself for why I chose to be mistreated for four full years. I continued to make poor dating decisions afterward because I didn't work on recognizing why I found this type of man so appealing. As a result I only began to gain insight six years after the relationship ended. That was a long time to operate under a self inflicted delusion. 

I don't know know that it's particularly harmful to tell yourself he chose someone else because he believes you're "too good" for him. But it's important to understand why you chose to entertain this fantasy for an entire decade despite never getting any indication from him that he wanted a romantic relationship with you. 

[Batya33]

By analogy. My mom used to tell me that I was rejected by or mistreated by certain “popular “ girls in junior high school because they must be “jealous “ of me.  She really meant well. She didn’t want me to feel so hurt and upset. But I knew it wasn’t true.  I mean maybe in one or two situations of many but in general - I just didn’t fit in with them for a variety of reasons and junior high school girls can be you know witchy.
 I think it would have been better if my mom had been more nuanced with me and perhaps “honest “ but had I really taken that to heart that I was actually “better” than them that wouldn’t have been a good message or rationale to tell myself. It’s a fine balance. My mom did her best. She was and is a wonderful mom. 

[Tinydance]

I only skimmed all the comments so not sure if I'm repeating what some other people said... I'm sorry you're hurting and that's a natural reaction to hearing that the guy you love is getting married. I understand you're probably saying a lot of these things out of disappointment. But to be honest you don't seem to have a lot of introspection or maturity.

You're 38 years old but your post comes across more as if you were a lovesick teenager. I think though that even a teenager would have at least probably told the guy she liked him. You loved this guy for ten years, you actually moved to live closer to him. You set up your apartment so that he could like it, learnt to cook, etc. You say you did all this "for him" but in ten years you either never made a move, or made one but were rejected I'm guessing? If you never told him you loved him, how can you blame this guy that he's not interested? He had no idea you even liked him! And if you did tell him how you felt and he turned you down, that should have been your cue to accept it and move on. It's not really normal to be in love with someone for ten years unless you're actually in a relationship with that person lol

You said you adored this guy but now he's found someone else, you're calling him a groomer and basically a paedophile. I think you're probably just saying that out of hurt. It's obvious he likes younger women but he's doing nothing wrong by marrying the 23-year-old. They do have a big age gap but she's a legal adult. She's also not that young, she's not a teenager or anything. You're upset he's with her and not you but that doesn't make him or the girl bad people.

Also I'm not sure what the situation was when he had the grade 12 girlfriend. Sometimes girls in grade 12 can actually already be 18 years old. Also it might depend on the laws where you live. In my state the age of sexual consent is actually 16 years old. So yeah as disturbing as it sounds but someone in their 50's or 60's could have consensual sex with a 16-year-old and it's actually not illegal. Don't get me wrong, it does seem in poor taste when a 30-year-old is with a teenager. But if the teenager is actually of legal age and agrees to the relationship then you can't really call the older person a groomer. They would be called a groomer if they were dating a child but that's not the case here.

Also he's allowed to have a preference for what he's looking for in a partner. Maybe what he said came across like "he wants to wear the pants in the relationship". Maybe he does but also he might just naturally have a preference for the more quiet, introverted personality. I'm actually really talkative myself and I know I'm not for everyone. I've had some people find it annoying but I've also had a lot of people like me just as I am. You need to remember that not everyone is everyone's cup of tea.

I also agree that people can have different criteria for romantic partners than for friends. I know this because I love all my friends but I wouldn't date them lol I like them as people but they either have some deal breakers as a romantic partner or I just don't see them in that way. Sometimes we do just see someone as a friend and think they're a good person but we just don't develop any feelings. Your friend can't exactly control how he feels about you, it's not like he did it on purpose to hurt you.