is my date cheap and should I mention this to him?

[treasure_island]

14 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

 

It may be better to take more control over your first meets and first dates. For example you should suggest a place you know near you for a first meet coffee/drink. Keep it brief.

It's important to keep an eye on safety at first and boat rides and picnics are horrible ideas for this. Avoid any sort of isolated situation where you are not near your car at all times.

Remember that these are meetings with strangers and not a relationship where you decide what your favorite restaurants are.

Take control of your dating life. How someone spends their money and what they make is not your concern after 1 meeting.

If you feel you are not meeting compatible men, you may want to shift your focus to quality selective paid dating apps.

Sorry to say but your choices for first and second dates were unsafe and unrealistic. You need to be more in charge and not so passive in your own safety and planning.

yeah, first meeting he suggested we meet halfway, so about 30 min drive for each of us. I would have preferred a place near me, but I was being too accomodating and tried to be fair.

yes boat rides and picnics are horrible ideas. and kinda scary. He's a stranger after all, no matter how legit he seems on google and facebook. 

yes, I should be more in charge, you're absolutely right. My problem is I like men who lead, which is a good thing and a bad thing. Mostly a bad thing when meeting  a stranger though.

 

[catfeeder]

18 minutes ago, treasure_island said:

There's a saying we have here: If a person is financially stingy with another person, he might also be stingy emotionally, and in other departments as well. It was a hard lesson for me to learn as well.

Hmmm ... when I think about it, that could be true.

However, I'd like to suggest something a bit different.  If you put all of the monetary stuff aside for a moment, maybe pretend that there were no costs involved for the duration, the bottom line still sounds as though you just plain didn't feel a connection with this guy.

Think about it, if you were gaga about him, very little of the stuff you're distracting yourself with would have mattered. You'd have been too struck to care, OR, you might have stepped up to cover for him a bit--maybe compensate with suggestions that might have saved the day instead of holding back to scrutinize.

And this can be a great lesson in following YOUR OWN gut. When you do that, none of the trappings are all that important in that moment, and neither are anyone else's opinions. Let's face it, nobody else is living your love life for you, so nobody else gets a vote.

When you lead with your intuition and how you FEEL when you are with someone, the rest will either fall into place, OR, you'll go persnickety and talk yourself out of enjoying the man.

There is no 'wrong' answer. Most people are NOT our match, so there's no need to identify 'stuff' about anyone with whom you don't enjoy simpatico.

Head high, and I think you made the right choice. And it had zero to do with the appetizer.

[Batya33]

10 minutes ago, treasure_island said:

At the same time, women spend alot more time and money to make themselves presentable in front of men, that's because men are visual. They always have and always will be, and that's ok. As a result since I prepared myself by looking presentable and by thinking about interesting topics to converse with him, I think it's fair to expect that he prepared a simple restaurant reservation. The day we first met, I actually also worked earlier, while he did not. Least he could do is look up restaurants. 

I've always had a real problem with this argument about how women have to spend more $ making themselves pretty.  Sorry it really doesn't fly - men may be more visual in general and that doesn't mean a woman has to put on makeup or dress up fancy.  When my husband and I reconnected after almost 8 years apart -we were 38 at the time - it was a last minute catch up friendly dinner.  I was wearing very little makeup, a casual fitted t-shirt and pants (whatever I wore to the office) and didn't go home to make myself up -I mean it wasn't a real date. 

He showed up all sweaty lol since he went to the wrong restaurant and was running late lol.  Sparks flew - partly visual but sparks - they're not all about the visual.  (Oh and it was a lovely restaurant and I believe he insisted on treating and we ordered one dessert- which we shared -not because he's cheap because their chocolate pudding was so rich!).  

Men don't ask us to spend $$ on makeup or clothes -that is our choice.  Certainly if a man invites you to a wedding or formal event and you have to buy clothes in order to go you can choose not to go if you can't afford it but sure it's nice of the man if he knows you spent $ to pay for the couple gift and/or the place you stay over, etc.  

I was fine with the man paying /offering to pay for the first few dates when I dated (not because I was a gold digger -because in the 80s/90s/early 2000s it was just -the way things were done) -but by the second or third date I was offering to chip in and if I was adamantly refused I often would buy small gifts -back then like a book or CD he mentioned he liked, or I'd bake cookies or invite him to the theater (and buy the tickets in advance and refuse to be paid back).  

[SherrySher]

18 hours ago, treasure_island said:

Hi everyone,

this is my first post so bear with me.

I'm a 38 yo female who went on 2 dates with a 38 yo man. We are both educated, professional, make 6 figures, from same culture. Both no kids, never married. We met online. In the past, my longest relationship was almost 6 years, his longest was 1 year. 

1st date:  we meet in popular area with lots of restaurants. He doesn't know which restaurants are good even though he comes here sometimes with friends and family. He takes me to a whole-in-the wall restaurant with not a single costumer inside. He quickly found it on yelp while walking with me, and it had zero reviews.  It's a place where you order at the counter and pay, then you sit and they bring the food. He didn't like the way the restaurant looked at first, but I didn't say no and frankly wanted to test if he would really invite me to a place like that. I would never take myself or any of my loved ones to a place like that. The food cost $40 together. He paid. Food was horrible. During those 2 hours, we were the only customers there. After the date he wanted to go dancing or get drinks, but I was already tired and also turned off from the restaurant he chose, so I wanted to go home.

Before 2nd date: Before this date he would call and text me and we had nice conversations. So for the second date he decided that I come to his town (1 hour drive for me), we go on a boat ride and then picnic (boat ride is around $8, picnic is basically food from home or some packaged food), and then his place for bbq. I said I'm not coming to  his house b/c it's too early for that and I'm not comfortable with that. Then a few days later he texts  to plan the date. I attempted to cancel and mentioned that we are not a good match and that it was inappropriate for him to invite me to his place so early. He apologized and said he didn't mean it like that, and that he was just thinking out loud and wanted to give some date ideas. I accepted his apology. So he still wanted boat ride and picnic, but I said it's too cold for that.  He said don't worry you don't have to sit on the ground, there are chairs and tables in the area. I was still turned off by his previous restaurant choice and his bbq invitation, so I had no desire to drive an hour to see him. So I suggested my area, which is by the beach and also has restaurants. He agreed.

During 2nd date: We walk around by the beach, then we chose a restaurant. This one was much nicer, 3 stars. He walks behind me, so technically I had to open the door. But luckily a waitress came out of the building so she held the door open for us. They bring the menu. He tells me he wants the salmon (24$). I chose the steak (25$) but don't tell him yet b/c I'm still thinking. Waitress comes, he orders appetizer (8$), then not salmon but beef bowl (17$). I order my steak. He sees the steak on the menu and changes his mind to teryaki chicken ($24). Both of our meals come with soup and salad. Waitress asks if we want to keep one menu for future use, he doesn't even ask me, and automatically says no.

They bring the soup and salad, then the main course. They forgot the appetizer, but he remembers and tells me "let me tell them so at least I won't get charged for it". I get it, tell them to remind them, but don't tell me about not wanting to get charged for it...Anyway, they bring appetizer. It was actually alot of food so I couldn't finish. Waitress comes at the end and asks if we want anything else. He doesn't even ask me and says no. They bring the check. Check was standing there. He didn't grab it. A good 10 second passed. (Mind you, he's the one who asked me out in the first place) He finally took the check. He keeps reading it (I guess to make sure everything is correct). 

This guy is not poor at all. I think he makes about 200k, just bought a house in the suburbs for over a million dollars. I should also mention that he has citizenship from his original country (where I'm also from), but also for Austria, where he used to live . He has greencard for the US and keeps renewing it every 10 years and doesn't want US citizenship b/c he doesn't want to give up his austrian citizenship, since it provides him with more benefits especially when he's older (healthcare, etc). Is he planning to live in austria when he's retired? He says no. Or only go there for healthcare? In that case, how about flight tickets and staying in hotels while receiving healthcare in austria? He has no family in austria, so it's not like he can stay at someones place for free. Seems to me he wants one foot in the US and one foot in austria. Of course I didn't think of asking him these questions.

Am I being too sensitive? I lean toward more traditional values, even though I live on my own and I'm completely independent. When I'm with a man I like to feel taken care of and it's extremely unattractive to me when he's worried about whether he's charged for appetizers or not. Or if he asks me to drive an hour to see him, for a picnic in the cold. 

So he wanted to talk on the phone the other day, but I texted him to say thank you for the date, but that I don't feel the connection and that I wish him good luck with everything. I didn't mention the above. He wanted to at least talk about it for 5 min. I said I don't think so, sorry. Then he texts 2 days later saying not feeling a connection is an excuse, that we are making a mistake not to continue dating, that I may be worried about other stuff but not sure exactly what. That I was interrogating him by asking indirect questions and then doubtfully react to his answer as if he's lying. That he wished he could have a conversation about it. That truth is he's a good person with a good heart(and that I am too) and that he just wanted to fall in love with me.

I wasn't interrogating him, I just asked him questions to get to know him. And yes, the austria citizenship thing sounded a bit fishy to me. Also I should mention that he didn't include his gf in austria in his USA plans when he was immigrating here. He was 31 at that time. He basically came to the US without thinking about his relationship and left his gf in austria, who was actually interested in immigrating here with him. Once he got settled here, he calls her to see if she 's interested to move here, but by that time she already moved on and got married. 

What should I do? Do you guys think he's stingy? And if he is, should I tell him? Thanks for reading my rant!

Please help!

 

You two are definitely not a match.

As for him being stingy? I think it's a matter of perspective.

Some women would actually enjoy the fact that he wanted to cook for them, or feel a picnic sounded romantic.

I do wonder though if maybe you might not want to be so concerned about the prices of things and focus more on enjoying the company you're with. 

Someone who throws money around, doesn't automatically make them a good partner.

[treasure_island]

10 minutes ago, SherrySher said:

 

I do wonder though if maybe you might not want to be so concerned about the prices of things and focus more on enjoying the company 

I just mentioned those numbers so you guys have more data to work with..Also because my guards were way up b/c to me, the fact that he asked me to come to his house on second date was inappropriate (I understand that cooking for someone might be romantic to some people). So that kinda set the tone and I was alert about everything he said and did. Maybe it was a defense mechanism on my part. I tried to enjoy his company, believe me. I wanted to get to know him and asked him questions. But no I wasn't flirting with him, or looking him deep in the eyes like I usually do during romantic dinners, b/c I was still processing his past behavior. 

[treasure_island]

14 hours ago, DarkCh0c0 said:

You have a good point.

What stood out to me is that despite the many red flags, her focus in the post title and question is on the whether he's cheap. It's as if she's willing to put up with BS as long as he flexes his money(not happening in his case though).

Yeah I know, because the lack of preparation on his part on date 1, combined with suggesting his place on date 2 already  set the tone. I was basically trying to see if he's cheap as in...is there another red flag? But at this point it doesn't matter anymore, b/c we are incompatible..for many reasons.

[treasure_island]

13 hours ago, Tinydance said:

I think yes at the end if the day it does come down to cultural values (in your case traditional) and gender role expectations. I'm 37, nearly 38 and I live in Australia. Here the gender roles are actually not that strong, at least not unless you're from certain overseas cultures.

Men aren't really expected to pay for women or not for five star restaurants. Normally when I went out with guys they might buy me a coffee or a small meal. There isn't really expectations that the guy will always pay.

One thing that stood out to me though is you say he's cheap and fixated on money but you seem to be too? You were noting how many stars restaurants have. When I go on a date I just want to grab some food and a drink and have good conversation. I don't care that much about the star rating of the restaurant unless it's something really terrible like dirty or the guy took me to McDonald's.

I mean I understand you're more traditional but you actually also sound materialistic? I think a boat ride and picnic is a sweet date. I would have liked that. Not everything has to be about money.

yes it's definitely a cultural thing. I also live in southern california so I'm sure that plays a role. This area is just more materialistic. Both men and women are. I dated a guy  who was upset that I don't have my own business or that I don't own a property (mind you, he didn't either). That I should not get my nails, eyebrows and hair done in order to save money. Same guy asked me to book an airbnb for our trip and said he will pay me back, but during the trip, he told me he doesn't wanna be financially burdened in the future if one of my elderly parents dies. I was very sad about this kind of depressing conversation during our supposedly romantic trip, so when he actually wanted to pay me back, I said it's ok, you don't have to it's on me. I did that b/c god forbid "he doesn't wanna be financially burdened"

Another asked for his money back after date 1, because I didn't feel the connection for date 2 (it was only $20 but still). 

So don't get me wrong, I have dated stingy men to generous men. It's an interesting mix. The stingy ones cause me the most trauma. That's why my guards are up and I notice every single detail. 

A boat ride and a picnic is nice if attraction is there, but not if he didn't prepare well for the previous date when he had all the time in the world to do so. 

[treasure_island]

12 hours ago, Batya33 said:

 

Yes -many of my dates back then were centered on meeting for a meal - I get it -but you seem uber-focused on restaurants as part of a date.  Why?  Picnics are sweet and why are you nickel and diming him? Boat rides are romantic -who cares what the $$ are?? And you have no right to judge him by what his salary is -he might be saving for a house, taking care of his family in some way (meaning parents/relatives, whatever).  

I don't like how you "tested" him - that sets up a weird vibe and has nothing to do with getting to know him.  Test by seeing how he interacts with strangers while you're on the date -how he refers to his coworkers (one of my dates called them all idiots during our 1 hour lunch date), and his family and friends.  Many yelp reviews are fake by the way.

My husband went all out when he courted me - wouldn't let me pay, took me to Europe after three months of dating on vacation (I gave him a check for my share -which he refused to deposit with me not even knowing that for months because back then I was not great at checking up on my account) - but you know what - an awesome memory I have of our trip to Europe this past summer - we chose a hole in the wall restaurant -meaning compared to the touristy places -it was totally clean and all and as you put it -order food at the counter.  Well the dollar was strong. 

My husband and son ordered a local soup that was $7 to share/try.  It took forever to come -why? Because literally they were making it almost from scratch -we could see.  They brought this huge portion big enough for an army and it wasn't fancy looking -you felt like you were in your grandma's kitchen.  It even had hardboiled egg floating in the broth. 

 

I'm nickel and diming him in order to be objective. Remember, he didn't properly plan the first date. I'm sure he would never take his parents to that kind of restaurant either. It was that bad. Other than that, he was nice and the conversation was nice, maybe the fact that his longest relationship was only 1 year at 38 years old, was another minor issue. And the fact that he doesn't wanna apply for US citizenship b/c he wants to keep the austrian passport. This post is specifically about money, but there's other issues too that I briefly discussed. 

yes, remember, your husband went all out when he courted you. Did this guy go all out while courting me? obviously no. He courted you b/c he liked you and took you serious. He took you to europe after 3 months. Many women can't say that about their boyfriends. Of course if someone takes me to europe, i'm not gonna complain about food. I wouldn't complaint about hotels either. Because he's taking me to freaking europe!  Europe generally has awesome food at lower prices. In europe everything just tastes better. The place he took me was cheap and didn't taste good. I know this sounds like i'm complaining, but if you husband didn't court you as well as he did and had the above red flags, would you continue pursuing him? Given that you have zero romantic feelings for him already (bc that's my situation..lol). 

[treasure_island]

9 hours ago, Andrina said:

 

You seemed to be dissecting his every move on the second date and could have made him nervous. I'm sure the expression on your face while you're doing this was a dead giveaway. 

No, he was not a good candidate for dating, but perhaps neither are you. If you find yourself alone after many dating attempts, perhaps look to improving your own viewpoints and attitude.

Yes I dissected his every move b/c his original plan for second date was to go to his house for bbq. My guards were up and I was alert about every single thing. If that made him uncomfortable, so be it. I was made uncomfortable by him to when he invited me to his house. Alot of the posters here say I shouldn't even have gone to second date with him b/c of exactly that. 

Maybe I'm not a good candidate, but he's the one still following up with me to change my mind and to continue dating him. But he needs someone who is ok to do picnic with a stranger in the cold. 

[treasure_island]

9 hours ago, serialmonogamist said:

Op, perhaps this is an opportunity for you to take a look at yourself here instead of blowing some guy off as a cheapskate. If your dating etiquette is how much or little is this guy spending on me, how little he seems to know about apparent high end restaurants and the fact that in your mind he took you to a restaurant that was cheap and the food was terrible suggests to me that your mind would have chosen to feel differently if he had gone all out and taken you to a high end restaurant where a salad costs 50 dollars for one leaf of lettuce and a cherry tomato and a squiggle of some exotic sauce on a massive plate. Is love measured by money or actions? Lol deeper within yourself and ask deeper questions to get to the real issues. You're welcome. 

No not at all. I've gone on a date with someone before  where we didn't even have dinner. We just laid on the beach and he brought tea and cookies from home. Several other times I cooked food and we had picnics. I was in love with that guy, but he wasn't. There was tons of chemistry and attraction and the relationship lasted 8 months. Unfortunately he was very materialistic and was upset that I don't have my own business or property (even though he didn't either). The guy broke up with me b/c my menstrual cramps were  severe after I froze my eggs and my hormones were going crazy. (but that's another story for another day...lol)

I know my original post sounds materialistic and that I'm nickel and diming everything, but I've dated all kinds of guys (stingy to generous). This post was about one specific guy and I was curious about other peoples opinions. I'm grateful for all the responses. 

 

[treasure_island]

8 hours ago, Batya33 said:

On our first lunch "date" in 1995 (we were coworkers but was pretty sure he wanted to date me) he suggested a nice restaurant nearby.  I remember ordering pizza as it wasn't as expensive as other entrees.  He wanted to pay and realized he'd left his wallet at the office.  He was mortified.  I didn't know him well AND totally believed he meant to pay.  I paid.  He then tried to repay me that afternoon (remember no venmo lol) and I would not let him.  I had no issue with paying and our next date, a week later, which he planned (I think drinks and appetizers because of work schedules maybe?) he paid and I let him.  

you were coworkers, you already had a foundation. completely different dynamic. If he was a stranger from online, it's a different ball game. He was your coworker so there was a little bit of politics involved too. As in if, hypothetically, you didn't like the date and therefore didn't wanna pursue him, there's a chance things might have become awkward at work. But luckily, your relationship flourished. I would have done the same as you, I would have pursued him despite him forgetting his wallet.

 

[treasure_island]

7 hours ago, WalterSobcha said:

For someone who is not stingy (unlike him, who, according to you, is the stingy one), you sure kept a very precise record of how much he spent, and how much every food item on the menu cost. You even said you two roughly make the same amount of money... so why would he need to pay for everything? Who knows, maybe he's posting on another forum and making a similar post about you.

 

 

I kept a record b/c I was extremely alert (remember he asked me to come to his house for 2nd date). I paid attention to everything. his words too. His stories, everything. 

about the similar income levels, honestly there's no right or wrong, but this is how I feel: 

I get that women have advanced alot in the past 100 years, with careers and everything. but it doesn't mean men should regress. Equality provides women with great opportunities in that they can survive and thrive on their own. No matter if they are married, single, widowed etc. Problem is, women have become stronger and men have become weaker.  And this is bad for both genders in the long run. Men have become less masculine, and women have to compensate for that. I like strong masculine men who lead and  who prepare for dates that are acceptable for the given weather conditions. If a man asks me to drive an hour to see him, and potentially have sex with him later, does it sound like he's putting in any effort? If he wants sex he needs to earn it. That's how it's always been. I know it sounds outdated. Maybe that's why casual flings and hookups are so much on the rise. Women have to be the gatekeepers and have standards, otherwise men will have sex with pretty much everyone. 

And again, in my experience, the stingy guys I dated ended up being the most toxic, while the generous ones took care of my heart and my soul. I hate how it played out.  That's why I've been paying attention to how much he spent on me. Maybe it's all just a trauma response.

All of this is just my opinion of course, and all if it is very controversial. 

 

[treasure_island]

5 hours ago, smackie9 said:

Just because a person makes six figures doesn't mean they automatically live the lifestyle to match. I know wealthy people that still scrimp and save, wear tattered clothes/gum boots and definitely don't fine dine. It's a lifestyle they choose, and you yourself choose a certain lifestyle. Everyone has their expectations. There is no right or wrong. I get it, a woman of your financial position, would like to meet a man of similar financial/professional status. And I think that is wise. It's all about balance.

There are other things to consider like the fact this guy is clueless about dating. First impressions are very important, and as a lady myself I like it when a man puts his best foot forward, and shows he is a gentleman, like opening doors,  plans a proper date, and wants his date to have an enjoyable time. This can be achieved without spending $$$ so this guy absolutely had no excuse. It's not the money that wasn't spent, it was the bad experience. Myself would never give this guy a second date for the way he behaved. And you my friend need to really look at the man, not his wallet. Like I always say date those who treat you the way you expect to be treated.

IMO there's a reason this guy is still single, and never had anything last relationship wise. He's a complete doofus. He doesn't know how to treat a lady right. Run girl, you run away as fast as you can.

To add, you should not be asking here to find out if you should say something...no you just say no thank you and be on your way.

 

You and I speak the same language. 

Yeah, I know an online forum is not the best place to ask these questions. Gotta have thick skin for all the responses I might get... LOL. I appreciate all the responses though. 

I basically kept him on read. I don't wanna tell him all the reasons we are not compatible b/c I don't want him to think I'm materialistic. Although keeping him on read is not great either. It's a double edged sword.

[treasure_island]

1 hour ago, Batya33 said:

I've always had a real problem with this argument about how women have to spend more $ making themselves pretty.  Sorry it really doesn't fly - men may be more visual in general and that doesn't mean a woman has to put on makeup or dress up fancy.  When my husband and I reconnected after almost 8 years apart -we were 38 at the time - it was a last minute catch up friendly dinner.  I was wearing very little makeup, a casual fitted t-shirt and pants (whatever I wore to the office) and didn't go home to make myself up -I mean it wasn't a real date. 

He showed up all sweaty lol since he went to the wrong restaurant and was running late lol.  Sparks flew - partly visual but sparks - they're not all about the visual.  (Oh and it was a lovely restaurant and I believe he insisted on treating and we ordered one dessert- which we shared -not because he's cheap because their chocolate pudding was so rich!).  

Men don't ask us to spend $$ on makeup or clothes -that is our choice.  Certainly if a man invites you to a wedding or formal event and you have to buy clothes in order to go you can choose not to go if you can't afford it but sure it's nice of the man if he knows you spent $ to pay for the couple gift and/or the place you stay over, etc.  

I was fine with the man paying /offering to pay for the first few dates when I dated (not because I was a gold digger -because in the 80s/90s/early 2000s it was just -the way things were done) -but by the second or third date I was offering to chip in and if I was adamantly refused I often would buy small gifts -back then like a book or CD he mentioned he liked, or I'd bake cookies or invite him to the theater (and buy the tickets in advance and refuse to be paid back).  

That's because you two already had a history and there was some sort of attachment already. You already saw each other in every way beforehand. You were not strangers. Totally different dynamic.

Men don't directly ask us to spend money to look good, but every man wants a good looking woman (for the most part), at least presentable woman, especially when he first sees her.  And that involves spending money in order to look presentable.  Unless the woman is so absolutely gorgeous that when rolls out of bed she attracts any man she wants without even washing her face. I'm no Angelina Jolie so....

Also, if a woman takes care of herself, her clothes, her skin, her face, hair....not only does she have higher chances to attract men, she also shows the man that she loves herself, she takes care of herself. It's visual attraction first, then personality later. I dress by occasion, of course when I go on a hiking date I don't wear a dress and heels, but I make sure my hair looks nice, my eyebrows are not a jungle...you know? Getting eyebrows done costs money...LOL. 

[Tinydance]

9 hours ago, treasure_island said:

I understand your frustration. At the same time, women spend alot more time and money to make themselves presentable in front of men, that's because men are visual. They always have and always will be, and that's ok. As a result since I prepared myself by looking presentable and by thinking about interesting topics to converse with him, I think it's fair to expect that he prepared a simple restaurant reservation. The day we first met, I actually also worked earlier, while he did not. Least he could do is look up restaurants.  Remember, it's the first meeting ever. It's not like we knew each other from before.  We are trying to see if we are compatible. Both parties should be at their best behavior. 

There's a saying we have here: If a person is financially stingy with another person, he might also be stingy emotionally, and in other departments as well. It was a hard lesson for me to learn as well. I didn't grow up thinking that way. I grew up in germany where equality is much more pronounced that in the US. But over time, after dating all kinds of men, from stingy to generous, the most generous have also been the most emotionally available and the most serious with me. The ones who take time to plan dates will stick with you the longest. I hate to say this. I'm sure theres exceptions, but that's more or less the norm. Maybe It was just my luck?? Who knows, this is not an exact science.

As far as women ghosting men after a nice dinner: How many times do men ghost women after sex? Now you know how it feels like. So the sex wasn't good enough? He just wanted to add another notch to his belt, but he really doesn't care for her? All of these things are important to mention. The man will therefore move on to bed the next person, just like the woman is looking for another fancy dinner? Either way it's messed up. Using people for materialistic things, or sex. Both are shallow. 

 

I actually think there's a difference between being actually stingy and not paying for expensive meals, etc. on first dates with someone you basically don't know. You did mention yourself in another comment that it's not like you actually knew each other and you were seeing if you're compatible.

This guy did actually take you to a place to eat the first date and did suggest something nice for the second date as well. You were very dissatisfied with him though because he didn't take you to a more expensive restaurant or suggest a more expensive date for the second date. I do think it was rude of him to say that the menu should be taken away at the restaurant or that you don't want anything else when he didn't even ask you. And if you didn't like that he invited you to his place on the second date already, that's fair enough.

The thing is, some men might be happy to spend money on their actual girlfriend or wife and take her to a five star restaurant or hotel. But that doesn't mean they want to do that for basically a stranger. And in all fairness you did actually ditch him after the two dates so that just proves the point that he would have spent all that money on nothing. 

I also know in some cultures women are expected to really take care of their looks and dress up nice for men and so on. In Australia it's not like that but I think looking nice is actually the respectful thing to do when you're going on a date. Of course it's not a good look to just show up in sloppy clothes or something. I don't think your attitude is right because you're saying you made yourself look nice for that guy so he has to take you to a prestigious restaurant. Looking decent on a date is just what most people do. Men usually dress nice for dates too but just don't spend time on make-up (unless they wear make-up lol). 

[Tinydance]

7 hours ago, treasure_island said:

I kept a record b/c I was extremely alert (remember he asked me to come to his house for 2nd date). I paid attention to everything. his words too. His stories, everything. 

about the similar income levels, honestly there's no right or wrong, but this is how I feel: 

I get that women have advanced alot in the past 100 years, with careers and everything. but it doesn't mean men should regress. Equality provides women with great opportunities in that they can survive and thrive on their own. No matter if they are married, single, widowed etc. Problem is, women have become stronger and men have become weaker.  And this is bad for both genders in the long run. Men have become less masculine, and women have to compensate for that. I like strong masculine men who lead and  who prepare for dates that are acceptable for the given weather conditions. If a man asks me to drive an hour to see him, and potentially have sex with him later, does it sound like he's putting in any effort? If he wants sex he needs to earn it. That's how it's always been. I know it sounds outdated. Maybe that's why casual flings and hookups are so much on the rise. Women have to be the gatekeepers and have standards, otherwise men will have sex with pretty much everyone. 

And again, in my experience, the stingy guys I dated ended up being the most toxic, while the generous ones took care of my heart and my soul. I hate how it played out.  That's why I've been paying attention to how much he spent on me. Maybe it's all just a trauma response.

All of this is just my opinion of course, and all if it is very controversial. 

 

While I don't really agree with what you're saying, but as they say, to each their own. There are both traditional men and women out there in most cultures I guess. So if your preference is for a more old fashioned, traditional man, that's how you feel. You are allowed to choose men who are like that as that's up to you.

I don't self identify as a feminist but I don't care about gender roles basically at all. You made the comment that women are becoming stronger but men weaker and it's not good for both genders.

Well you are free to speak for yourself but I think many people wouldn't agree with you. First of all I don't actually see why it's bad if women are becoming stronger.

Back in the day women didn't get an education, a job. Their purpose in life was just to find a husband to financially support them. Often women ended up in an arranged marriage or married someone out of necessity. Or stayed in an abusive marriage. These days because women work and financially support themselves, they can choose a man for themselves that they actually want. In my opinion that's not bad - it's great.

Also why is a man weak just because he's not flashing his wallet around? He could be the nicest guy but just because he didn't take you to a Michelin star restaurant, he's not good enough?

[DarkCh0c0]

Now that I read more of your answers, I can see more where you're coming from. I'm more on the side of @smackie9 and @Cherylyn when it comes to dating. I like to be courted and I like a man with a plan. It's the little things that show their character. There's no right or wrong about this.

I see that you are aware that you are indeed materialistic in some way. You have x income and have a certain lifestyle. You'd like to find a man that matches that. I get it and there's nothing wrong with that.

Though, I'm definitely not moving to Southern California soon after reading all those horrible dating experiences! Any chance you can date less rich or outside of that area? Or maybe date from your social circle? (friends of friends). Maybe, because you're so focused on the material things, you've attracted men who are the same? Have you considered that? Instead of just looking for the matching $, look for character, having a good time/laugh, ect.

Moreover, try not to stay too long with men who show you who they are from day 1 and expect them to change. If he's 50/50 on dates 1-3, chances are he'll be like that all the way. That'll help you screen out quickly the ones who don't match your criteron so you can waste less time on wrong matches (like that 8 months guy).

[mylolita]

10 hours ago, treasure_island said:

I understand your frustration. At the same time, women spend alot more time and money to make themselves presentable in front of men, that's because men are visual. They always have and always will be, and that's ok. As a result since I prepared myself by looking presentable and by thinking about interesting topics to converse with him, I think it's fair to expect that he prepared a simple restaurant reservation. The day we first met, I actually also worked earlier, while he did not. Least he could do is look up restaurants.  Remember, it's the first meeting ever. It's not like we knew each other from before.  We are trying to see if we are compatible. Both parties should be at their best behavior. 

There's a saying we have here: If a person is financially stingy with another person, he might also be stingy emotionally, and in other departments as well. It was a hard lesson for me to learn as well. I didn't grow up thinking that way. I grew up in germany where equality is much more pronounced that in the US. But over time, after dating all kinds of men, from stingy to generous, the most generous have also been the most emotionally available and the most serious with me. The ones who take time to plan dates will stick with you the longest. I hate to say this. I'm sure theres exceptions, but that's more or less the norm. Maybe It was just my luck?? Who knows, this is not an exact science.

As far as women ghosting men after a nice dinner: How many times do men ghost women after sex? Now you know how it feels like. So the sex wasn't good enough? He just wanted to add another notch to his belt, but he really doesn't care for her? All of these things are important to mention. The man will therefore move on to bed the next person, just like the woman is looking for another fancy dinner? Either way it's messed up. Using people for materialistic things, or sex. Both are shallow. 

 

Morning Treasure,

I understand where you are coming from in many ways. You want it to feel thoughtful and important too him, and it didn't come across that way, or wasn't, and you were turned off, and that is completely fine.

I think everyone has their own personal picture of what a great first date looks like. I think they probably vary massively. Mine would be going for a drive, and then pulling up at the coast and watching the moon and the waves, or going out at 2am to get coffee and a hot dessert, and just talking until the sun comes up. This isn't everyones idea of fun. Personally, I find eating in front of someone I hardly know quite a strange feeling! And you can't talk too freely, because service staff keep attending and interrupting, and then, you also have to eat these plates of food coming out. I don't know. But I can see why a nice restaurant is a general, traditional, lovely date. I really do. I think a nice meal out should be somewhere in the dating itinerary, whether it be first date, third date, or second. 

I think your instinct was right, and he's not for you. He didn't do much to impress or please you, so it sounds like a write off. 

Regarding the feedback? If he kept pushing for it, I would have kindly told him. It seems he really wanted to know, his reasons for this I wouldn't be sure because he's a stranger but, y'know, it might be very straight forward and he wanted to know what he did wrong or he might be playing games, who knows. I would have told him but said thank you all the same and left on a polite note, and told him something good about himself for him to depart on!

All the best,

x

[Tinydance]

13 minutes ago, mylolita said:

Morning Treasure,

I understand where you are coming from in many ways. You want it to feel thoughtful and important too him, and it didn't come across that way, or wasn't, and you were turned off, and that is completely fine.

I think everyone has their own personal picture of what a great first date looks like. I think they probably vary massively. Mine would be going for a drive, and then pulling up at the coast and watching the moon and the waves, or going out at 2am to get coffee and a hot dessert, and just talking until the sun comes up. This isn't everyones idea of fun. Personally, I find eating in front of someone I hardly know quite a strange feeling! And you can't talk too freely, because service staff keep attending and interrupting, and then, you also have to eat these plates of food coming out. I don't know. But I can see why a nice restaurant is a general, traditional, lovely date. I really do. I think a nice meal out should be somewhere in the dating itinerary, whether it be first date, third date, or second. 

I think your instinct was right, and he's not for you. He didn't do much to impress or please you, so it sounds like a write off. 

Regarding the feedback? If he kept pushing for it, I would have kindly told him. It seems he really wanted to know, his reasons for this I wouldn't be sure because he's a stranger but, y'know, it might be very straight forward and he wanted to know what he did wrong or he might be playing games, who knows. I would have told him but said thank you all the same and left on a polite note, and told him something good about himself for him to depart on!

All the best,

x

I think the trouble with people giving feedback though is that feedback can be subjective. Unless you're always getting exactly the same feedback. Then you know you're the problem lol For example, if a guy asked me to go on a boat ride and picnic, I'd love it. I really love going on ferries and boats. I live in Australia and when I visit Sydney, as you know they have a big beautiful harbour. Taking ferries is part of their public transport so I just get a cheap all day ticket and ride the ferry. One day I just rode around on it for two hours lol

[mylolita]

3 minutes ago, Tinydance said:

I think the trouble with people giving feedback though is that feedback can be subjective. Unless you're always getting exactly the same feedback. Then you know you're the problem lol For example, if a guy asked me to go on a boat ride and picnic, I'd love it. I really love going on ferries and boats. I live in Australia and when I visit Sydney, as you know they have a big beautiful harbour. Taking ferries is part of their public transport so I just get a cheap all day ticket and ride the ferry. One day I just rode around on it for two hours lol

Sure thing Tiny of course it will be completely subjective!

I would just be straight up though and answer his questions personally. If it were me, I would maybe have said, "I really respected the fact you asked me out. I think you're a nice guy. The date didn't meet my expectations, I just felt like you didn't try, and I felt like when you invited me to stay over you were passively suggesting sex. I don't want to waste your time. I know I'm not perfect either, best luck finding Mrs Right!"

That's just along the lines of how I would have replied, since he asked for it! God, I would never give feedback if he didn't ask for it, I would just move on. 

I wouldn't tell the guy it was all terrible and he's stingy and a cheapskate because I get the impression they don't know each other and you don't want to break him down into a crumple but, since he asked, I don't see what the problem is.

Sounds like incompatible and like the OP knows what she wants, whether any of us agree with it, you have to please yourself in a relationship, and one size definitely don't fit all! As we all know from reading relationship stories and advice on here! LOL! It's so different and varied.

I would probably be throwing up on a boat or be pale as death LOL! I have always envied "ocean people!" I've taken ferries across to parts of Ireland and some of the islands off Scotland before. 40 minutes is fine for me if the sea is calm - the overnight ferry from Cyprus to Cairo Egypt I went on was fine too, but I had a bad experience going to the Isle of Man and God it made me never want to set sail again! 

Each to their own, each to their own!

x

[Wiseman2]

8 hours ago, treasure_island said:

I basically kept him on read. I don't wanna tell him all the reasons we are not compatible 

Try to be decisive, polite and efficient. Tell him you're not a match. It's that simple. He doesn't need a post game analysis of your impression.

Overall you're trying to make this about money, who pays,who plans, etc., but it's about some baggage you haven't dealt with and dating burnout .

Unfortunately you may make xyz salary, but your behavior is that of a social climber with poor social skills and a poor understanding of how to date safely.

Try to get more involved in planning and politeness. You may judge people based on material romcom dates but people may judge you buy your choices and actions.

When someone is not a match, just say so.

 

[Kwothe28]

11 hours ago, treasure_island said:

As far as women ghosting men after a nice dinner: How many times do men ghost women after sex? Now you know how it feels like. So the sex wasn't good enough? He just wanted to add another notch to his belt, but he really doesn't care for her? All of these things are important to mention. The man will therefore move on to bed the next person, just like the woman is looking for another fancy dinner? Either way it's messed up. Using people for materialistic things, or sex. Both are shallow. 

 

Then why are you doing things that even you think are shallow? Because I can assure you, counting every dollar he has spent and how he wasnt spending enough is shallow.

Also this is not some revenge plot. Just because some men would use you for sex doesnt mean you should ghost other men after dinner. Its nott a pass for you to also act bad. Nobody owes you anything. Just as you dont owe him sex because he paid dinner, he doesnt owe you to pay for dinners. The point of the date is to look presentable. But the point of the date is to also get to know somebody. And not just to count if he did spend enough.

11 hours ago, treasure_island said:

Yeah, I still haven't responded to him as to why we are incompatible, b/c he might judge me for being shallow and materialistic. 

That is because, imagine that, you are the definition of shallow and materialistic. In your, what, 20 messages here, I didnt see(and trust me I looked) anything regarding a mans character. Even not encountered if you considered him pretty. Not to mention stuff like if he is interesting, maybe funny etc. 

But you know what Ive encountered in those messages? Endless ammount of complaining how he didnt spend enough and how he is stingy, how you love "generous men"(that probably means somebody who would pay for stuff for you), how men are like this, women are like that etc. Its not the way you should date. And you wont get too far like that. 

Also, let me take the wild guess. The guy you dated before and who you paid for stuff was pretty. This one isnt pretty but he earns 200k. So when he didnt paid enough for you, the only alure he had, was gone. So now you just ghost him instead of just saying that you dont want to date him. Again, shallow and materialistic. If he flexed money you would already be on the 3rd date with the guy with the option to go to his house after lol

[Batya33]

10 hours ago, treasure_island said:

you were coworkers, you already had a foundation. completely different dynamic. If he was a stranger from online, it's a different ball game. He was your coworker so there was a little bit of politics involved too. As in if, hypothetically, you didn't like the date and therefore didn't wanna pursue him, there's a chance things might have become awkward at work. But luckily, your relationship flourished. I would have done the same as you, I would have pursued him despite him forgetting his wallet.

 

I would have done exactly what I did with someone I just met who forgot his wallet.  We didn't work together, just for the same huge company.  I didn't "pursue" him - -he had to do a bit of "pursuing" briefly at one point since I was casually dating someone else -but we dated -and where I dated also had a lot of materialistic people and mindsets -that's not a "culture" meaning in some cultures for example the man asks the lady's parents for permission to date her - that's just you justifying resorting to materialism.  I didn't act in this way despite being steeped in it where I grew up my first 43 years and did all my dating.

I will give two examples of cheap. From about 20 years ago.  Both first meets through dating sites. The guy who insisted we meet for dinner at a fancy restaurant when I suggested a short drink meet.  Yes I agreed.  This was 20 years ago -the bill was around $80 for two of us -I remember because he didn't offer to pick up the check despite having insisted on meeting there- that restaurant was not quite in my budget and I ordered leanly.  He immediately accepted my offer to split it (yes I know - a test of sorts but I also knew I likely didn't want to see him again).  Back then many men offered to pay in advance for a taxi if it was late at night -nope.  I didn't ask either.

Example 2- we met at a cafe for dessert.  He and I each ordered coffee and dessert.  The bill came and I knew I didn't want to see him again so I said "oh let's just split it".  He "misheard me" and said "thank you!!! I love being pampered!!!" -he thought I'd said I'd pay.  The bill was over $20.  I did say "oh - I meant let's split it" - and we did- because I didn't like his attitude or his immediate assumption that I would pay.  Yes he asked me out again yes I said no.

That to me was cheap/stingy/kind of off about money and generosity and thoughtfulness.I was wrong to offer to split the fancy restaurant if I really didn't wish to given his insistence so I get that.

Please don't give yourself a pass just because of where you choose to reside.

Also -what's this about looking deep into someone's eyes - I mean sure if the spirit moves you but you make it sound as if you do that as a sort of way of flirting whether you really feel it or not -is a lot of this playing a role to you and testing a man to see what he can give you/treat you with? If so why? 

My coworker and I got engaged, broke up before the wedding and got back together when we were 38-39 (right before my 39th bday) so I dated at your age and I can tell you if I'd had  this sort of mindset you describe I wouldn't have been the right person to find the right person for me.  Just something to consider. I really do wish you the best -dating was really hard for me and often like a part time job.  And totally worth it.  

By the way -I agree with Kwok28.  Also plenty of women use men for sex and other things too.  I've "used" men in the sense of kissing men I just met knowing I likely wouldn't be interested in dating them (no, not sex, not even close -i didn't have casual sex).

Also - yes -certain women have sex with men for fun or for manipulative reasons.

All sorts of people out there but excusing bad behavior because "see what men do" -that's self-sabotage- that will make you jaded, cynical and might even increase those almost 40 something wrinkles if you have that negative scowl/frown going on. Just saying.  It's not worth it.  If you want forever or the chance at it -it's not worth it to self-sabotage.  

[boltnrun]

7 hours ago, DarkCh0c0 said:

I'm definitely not moving to Southern California soon after reading all those horrible dating experiences!

I can assure you, it's not a "Southern California thing".  This has not been my experience.

[Cherylyn]

When my husband and I were dating, often times we would split the restaurant bill or take turns paying the entire bill.  Same with symphonies, movies, theater (plays), ballet, museum tickets, ski lift tickets for a day of skiing, take out meals for picnics during good weather and the like.  Or, since I enjoy cooking, I packed home made picnics for us. 

It was an hour's drive to see each other so we took turns driving to his parents' house or my mother's house.  We were saving our money for our future house so saving rent money every month helped us immensely. 

We were considerate of each others expenses but we didn't obsess about it such as your first two dates, OP, @treasure_island We simply cooperated with each other and made our relationship easy and smooth.  It wasn't a point of contention whatsoever.  We were considerate of each others budgets. 

I am very lucky.  My husband didn't have red flags. 

As for your dates with this guy, @treasure_islandhe sounds like he is stingy and frugal to the point of being ugly.  In other words,  he's cheap!   He has a difficult personality and given his track record with how he treated his ex, he won't treat you well either.  He'll only give you stress, worries and concerns because of his complicated personality.  He's mental high maintenance for you.  He's a reject to be sure.

My brother and mother don't earn high incomes yet they're very generous when restaurant entertaining my family and in-laws at the same table.  My affluent in-laws take advantage of my brother and mother's generosity and never reciprocate. 

I don't know why some people who don't have much money are generous to others whereas some affluent people are very stingy and penny pinching to the point of ugly.  Or, they constantly talk about how they want to save money or they obsess over how much everything costs.  They're not quiet.  Instead, they're fixated on endless attention to expenses which is very unattractive, obnoxious and disgusting.

My husband and I deliver dinners, meals and groceries to my mother's house at random throughout the year.  I buy clothes and shoes for my mother.  I give my brother practical items such as a much needed winter coat, chic shirts, take out meals gift cards and I know what he likes as his sister. 

Then there's my sister who resides in a $2mil house yet she's the stingiest person I had ever known.  She never gives my brother nor mother anything whatsoever.  She never reciprocates and always takes advantage of other people's generosity all the time. 

I've delivered cooked home made meals for my local in-laws whenever there was tumult in their lives (emergencies, crisis, etc) yet they've never reciprocated whenever our lives were turned upside down. 

@treasure_islandSome people are the way they are.  Either accept them or move onto a man who is very decent, honorable, practices common decency and common courtesy.  Any other way is a miserable situation.