30 And Never Had A Girlfriend, Too Ugly?

[Batya33]

7 minutes ago, moodindigo91 said:

So much yes lol even on posts where people are not even really looking for advice and maybe just came to vent, people are like, so what advice are you asking for? 🤣 

Or on the flip side asking for advice, getting it, realizing they actually only wanted to vent.  😉

[boltnrun]

57 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

Or on the flip side asking for advice, getting it, realizing they actually only wanted to vent.  😉

That's exactly why I started my journal. I don't want advice, I am just venting (OK, oftentimes whining TBH) but not looking for someone to advise me.

I'm not sure if the OP wants advice, suggestions, support or something else.

I do feel for him though. Lots of people are craving that human, romantic connection and aren't finding it. 

[Tinydance]

3 hours ago, Carnatic said:

I think people get a bit hung up on this site about needing to give advice if I'm honest though. I don't know if we really know all that much about the OP's attitude either since most of us, if you look through our posts probably would look like we're just really whiny and full of problems. Sometimes you just need to tell people what your problems are.

Well if people don't want any advice but just to talk then they should probably be talking to a paid therapist.

[Tinydance]

1 hour ago, mylolita said:

If people wanna vent they can easily start an online journal here - why waste peoples time asking for advice on an advice forum and then saying well durrr why are you like spending all this energy giving advice! 
 

Don’t ask a question if you don’t want an answer! Bizarre! 

 

x
 

 

Yeah exactly

[MysteriousTelephone]

On 11/3/2022 at 11:32 PM, Batya33 said:

What does that even mean -that someone who "finds a relationship" when they are young somehow is in a better position than someone who doesn't?

Okay, I'm going to pre-face this and say that though I did read all of the replies since I last logged in, I'm not going to reply to every person, since many are talking to each other. If anyone has a direct question for me, please quote me here and I'll get back to you on this forum. I really do appreciate people taking time out of their day on this one, even if we don't see eye-to-eye on a lot of things.

I mean, it should go without saying that your first relationship is a milestone of becoming an adult, either successful or otherwise. Literal 14 year olds can just exist and fall into relationships (with other 14 year olds, I hasten to add), though when I come on here and am awfully concerned that being in my 30s, and treated as an ugly person, makes this difficult, I am told it's: because I don't drive, because I don't own my own place, that I'm trying too hard, that I'm not trying hard enough, that I'm too negative, that I need to take cooking classes, overhaul my wardrobe and also find time to ask out 100 women on the street. I mean, just to clarify, your average teenager has none of those things, so you can imagine my frustration when verifiably they are doing better than me romantically. And it's not an 'elite' select few, most people have a relationship before they're 20.

13 hours ago, Tinydance said:

Well I actually gave advice even in the case of being ugly. For example, asking out women who are also unattractive. I'm sure unattractive women would also have issues dating, but they still want to find someone. 

Also it's possible to have some plastic surgery done if the person really was quite ugly. I think there is also a difference between someone who is average, plain and actually ugly. When I think of the word ugly I think of someone unpleasant to look at. Or maybe disfigured in some way. 

For example if a plain man cold approached a woman, maybe she'll say no. Maybe she'd say yes to a cute guy because she'd be flattered that a cute guy noticed her. So it's true that the plain man has to work harder. In his case he may need to actually get to know women in person and go for women who are also average. But I think the point everyone was trying to make is that it's not impossible to still find someone, even if it's more difficult.

Also just some of OP's statements sounded very generalised and exaggerated. Which is why I maybe got the impression that he exaggerated his "ugliness". He said every time a woman rejected him, then she found a handsome man instead. And that all his friends are attractive and that's why they don't believe him. How can every woman find a handsome man and every one of his friends be attractive? Just doesn't sound realistic.

To me that sounded like some kind of complex where a person believes basically all/most other people to be attractive but consider themselves ugly.

Again, I really don't want you to think I'm being very picky and only expressing interest in 'select' women; some of the women I've liked, my friends didn't really see it, they have been all shapes and sizes.

If I had a specific thing I could change via surgery, I would probably consider being in debt for the rest of my life in order to correct it. Sadly I'm unable to pin it down to anything specific. I'm sure if I went for a consultation, the surgeon would sign me up for a whole list of options, but then that surgeon has an interest in my custom. I don't have a huge nose, or wrinkles, eyebrows are fine, I have a chin. There's really no obvious single thing that I can ascertain is holding me back, all I know is that they don't like what they see.

Sure, and I've never said I approach women from cold: usually there is a shared activity, or a friend that introduces us to find common ground. Though I'm not against asking women out from a completely cold approach: as you've said, that's a strategy that doesn't favour the "aesthetically challenged".

Really, every experience I've listed in this thread has been completely true. I realise it can come across as 'vague' to you because I'm talking about people that you don't know, but I really have nothing to gain by telling you the many ways I've been told I'm unattractive, both directly and indirectly. If you have a question about anything I've said, please ask, I'd rather set the record straight than have anyone just assume something. Yes, my friends do not believe me when I tell them the stories I've told you, because they've lived very different lives. I've no idea how I fell into having groups of attractive friends, I certainly didn't pick them that way, it's just the way things have fallen. Though I'm uncomfortable showing a photo of myself, I could link a few photos of my extremely photogenic friends and you'd say "Yeah.... I get it."

I don't believe that I'm the "only" ugly person, just that I am one, and I really don't know what more I can do about it. I know other ugly people are out there, and I know even they're doing better than me romantically. But when I feel I'm doing ok on every other front that I can, I generally do feel out of options.

[Tinydance]

1 hour ago, MysteriousTelephone said:

Okay, I'm going to pre-face this and say that though I did read all of the replies since I last logged in, I'm not going to reply to every person, since many are talking to each other. If anyone has a direct question for me, please quote me here and I'll get back to you on this forum. I really do appreciate people taking time out of their day on this one, even if we don't see eye-to-eye on a lot of things.

I mean, it should go without saying that your first relationship is a milestone of becoming an adult, either successful or otherwise. Literal 14 year olds can just exist and fall into relationships (with other 14 year olds, I hasten to add), though when I come on here and am awfully concerned that being in my 30s, and treated as an ugly person, makes this difficult, I am told it's: because I don't drive, because I don't own my own place, that I'm trying too hard, that I'm not trying hard enough, that I'm too negative, that I need to take cooking classes, overhaul my wardrobe and also find time to ask out 100 women on the street. I mean, just to clarify, your average teenager has none of those things, so you can imagine my frustration when verifiably they are doing better than me romantically. And it's not an 'elite' select few, most people have a relationship before they're 20.

Again, I really don't want you to think I'm being very picky and only expressing interest in 'select' women; some of the women I've liked, my friends didn't really see it, they have been all shapes and sizes.

If I had a specific thing I could change via surgery, I would probably consider being in debt for the rest of my life in order to correct it. Sadly I'm unable to pin it down to anything specific. I'm sure if I went for a consultation, the surgeon would sign me up for a whole list of options, but then that surgeon has an interest in my custom. I don't have a huge nose, or wrinkles, eyebrows are fine, I have a chin. There's really no obvious single thing that I can ascertain is holding me back, all I know is that they don't like what they see.

Sure, and I've never said I approach women from cold: usually there is a shared activity, or a friend that introduces us to find common ground. Though I'm not against asking women out from a completely cold approach: as you've said, that's a strategy that doesn't favour the "aesthetically challenged".

Really, every experience I've listed in this thread has been completely true. I realise it can come across as 'vague' to you because I'm talking about people that you don't know, but I really have nothing to gain by telling you the many ways I've been told I'm unattractive, both directly and indirectly. If you have a question about anything I've said, please ask, I'd rather set the record straight than have anyone just assume something. Yes, my friends do not believe me when I tell them the stories I've told you, because they've lived very different lives. I've no idea how I fell into having groups of attractive friends, I certainly didn't pick them that way, it's just the way things have fallen. Though I'm uncomfortable showing a photo of myself, I could link a few photos of my extremely photogenic friends and you'd say "Yeah.... I get it."

I don't believe that I'm the "only" ugly person, just that I am one, and I really don't know what more I can do about it. I know other ugly people are out there, and I know even they're doing better than me romantically. But when I feel I'm doing ok on every other front that I can, I generally do feel out of options.

Well would it hurt to at least try some more of these things? For example, cooking class? They're full of women and even if you don't find anyone, you can improve your cooking! If you don't really care about driving that's OK. I didn't care about driving until I was 28 years myself. That's when I got my driver's license. It definitely can't hurt to drive though. It's more appealing when your partner drives and you don't need to go pick them up or give them lifts. I don't really see why you're being defensive about these suggestions as they're not bad suggestions (in my opinion). If you get nothing out of it in regards to dating, that's unfortunate. But they are not pointless. For example, any class you do, you learn something/make something in that class.

[Mammalyssa]

Not driving... I'd say that's a big one. Just from my own point of view when I've been single someone who didn't drive would be quite off putting for me (perhaps depending on where you live, suburban city life is different to country where I live).  If the man didn't drive I would see that as someone who would end up becoming reliant on me for transporting everywhere, like my kids are! For the record your reference to 14 yr olds having nothing and still attracting a mate... that's because all the other 14 yr olds are on the same level. Women in their 30s want to know that a man isn't yet another burden on her... if your life circumstances are comparable to a 14 yr old that's actually a big deal. It would be a no thank you from me. 

 

Cooking... yes cooking class... we all LOVE when a man can cook. Women these days expect a certain level of equality around the home and someone who knows how to cook clearly is capable of putting in their share of contributing to a household. 

 

Your clothing... some care about it some don't. I wouldn't say it's that important... in fact someone who is 'too on trend' to me comes across as too high maintenance. I'm sure everyone has personal preference but I think a plain black tshirt and jeans is tidy and nice. 

For me level of hygiene is important.. someone that smells amazing is very attractive to me. I have a little bit of a thing about long nails on a man, it's really off putting and I see it as dirty. (Toenails or fingernails) If your grooming and hygiene is on point that will help. Not saying yours is not but it's sometimes the little things like aftershave that helps (if you're looking for a good one 'Million' is one that I recognise from afar and it makes me want to put my face in their neck 😀

 

I had a huge chat with a family friend the other night.. he's a man in his 60s and he is ridiculously popular with the ladies of almost every age group. Yet there is nothing special about how he looks. I was able to see it from a female perspective because I have spent time around him and I can see why they're attracted to him. 

It's because - 

He makes women feel safe when he's out and about. He'll stand up for a woman who looks unfortable at the unwanted advances of other men. 

He always speaks respectfully to them and like they're a good mate, rather than having the agenda to flirt and get them into bed like so many men do these days.

He keeps his hands to himself even if they're clearly flirting with him.

He'll offer to help them out in whatever way he can if the opportunity comes up. This is without the expectation of payment or that they might owe him something romantically. 

 

Basically he acts like a complete gentleman in a world that is full of opportunistics.  He does also end up with a lot of friends and it doesn't go further than that, which is also perfectly okay. 

 

[Wiseman2]

5 hours ago, MysteriousTelephone said:

 I am told it's: because I don't drive, because I don't own my own place, that I'm too negative, that I need to take cooking classes, overhaul my wardrobe 

If you're friends are telling you this or this is what others have suggested, why won't you try addressing it?

You stated you have your own apartment and a good job,so getting a driver's license and treating yourself to some updated clothes couldn't be that hard, right?

Being negative is also something you could look into through therapy or an evaluation of your physical and mental health by a physician.

Either way, whether it's to improve your dating life or in general, they're all things you can do rather than perseverating and fixating on your looks.

In fact the cooking classes, license, being more positive and some updated clothes sound like great ideas. So rather than scoff at your friends, give their suggestions a try.

[mylolita]

MysteriousTelephone,
 

I see it as, why reduce your chances? Especially if you are struggling. So having a drivers license can only be a positive thing, it won’t be a negative against you. Same for being groomed, smelling great, having a neat wardrobe that compliments you, and widening your experiences/trying new things. I doubt these suggestions are going to harm your chances with women.

 

This is generally appealing stuff for most women. When you get down to each individual woman, what they want personally with vary of course, but having a good career, your own apartment, being able to drive, socialising, smelling great and being groomed and presentable won’t harm.

 

Approaching as many women as you find attractive will not only give you practice at approaching women (even the most smooth guys know they always have more to learn), but it might build your confidence and take some of the doubt or fear away. The more you approach as well, the more likely you are to find someone who you like and who likes you. 
 

Honestly, the most effective men I have witnessed don’t approach women with unusual or intelligent or cryptic interest spiking chat up lines. You just want to not be painfully awkward, that in turn puts her at ease. Something beyond simple often works. A compliment, then direct - “let me buy you a drink” - don’t ask her if you can, she is more likely to say no. Kind of… tell her, but you are asking at the same time. The drink holds her to a bit of conversation (why bars are just so stereotypical for meeting the opposite sex)! 
 

As other women have suggested, being somewhere where there are a lot of the opposite sex just increases your chances! I always say, if I hadn’t been a cocktail waitress for 2 years during college, I would never have met my husband. A classy bar like that, you meet thousands of men night after night. I got chance to talk to so many, simply waitressing. The male staff were so popular as well - ever seen the film with Tom Cruise ‘Cocktail’?! 🤣 

 

I know it’s not a popular suggestion anymore but, there is nothing wrong with a really nice bar in my opinion. Kills the nerves, a stiff drink, for everyone. I always think, half of us wouldn’t have been born had it not been for a club, a bar, and some alcohol!!!

 

I’ve never been to a cooking class and even as a married 32 year old woman with young kids, I would love to try it out, just to gain some skills and mingle!

 

You are in your prime for a man - the 30s is a great age for men. Women normally gravitate towards that age bracket, especially if they want to settle down or get into a serious relationship. It’s not all bad! 
 

x

[MysteriousTelephone]

8 hours ago, Tinydance said:

Well would it hurt to at least try some more of these things? For example, cooking class? They're full of women and even if you don't find anyone, you can improve your cooking! If you don't really care about driving that's OK. I didn't care about driving until I was 28 years myself. That's when I got my driver's license. It definitely can't hurt to drive though. It's more appealing when your partner drives and you don't need to go pick them up or give them lifts. I don't really see why you're being defensive about these suggestions as they're not bad suggestions (in my opinion). If you get nothing out of it in regards to dating, that's unfortunate. But they are not pointless. For example, any class you do, you learn something/make something in that class.

The thing is, I'm not a bad cook, I cook for myself every day. Like most single people I may rotate between 5-6 meals, but I always use fresh ingredients and don't survive on microwave meals and frozen pizzas. I really feel no 'need' to take a cooking class, so I would be taking a cooking class entirely to meet women. I feel that's definitely the wrong approach, because if it didn't happen I'd be annoyed, and I wouldn't reap the benefits as it's something I'm fairly capable of.

There is also the aspect of time: between work, gym (3-4 times a week), dancing (usually twice), seeing friends, and also having a night to myself, I really don't believe I would have the time to take up a completely new hobby. Something would have to give, either taking a back step on fitness or on dancing, and those are both things I'm passionate about. If I spent every evening and weekend sat in front of a computer, I'd have to agree with you, but 5 nights out of 7 I'm out of my house doing something social.

3 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

If you're friends are telling you this or this is what others have suggested, why won't you try addressing it?

You stated you have your own apartment and a good job,so getting a driver's license and treating yourself to some updated clothes couldn't be that hard, right?

Being negative is also something you could look into through therapy or an evaluation of your physical and mental health by a physician.

Either way, whether it's to improve your dating life or in general, they're all things you can do rather than perseverating and fixating on your looks.

In fact the cooking classes, license, being more positive and some updated clothes sound like great ideas. So rather than scoff at your friends, give their suggestions a try.

No, these are not my friends suggestions, those were the list of suggestions from this thread.

Living in the city, I really wouldn't drive that much, it is just too inconvenient, I would say about half the people my age do not drive, the ones that do are because they have families to transport or jobs that do not require it. I would be working harder, paying out thousands, for a car I really would not use. I never said my clothes were outdated, nor have any of my friends, that's just been a suggestion posted in this thread from people who've never seen me.

I'm sorry, I'm going to have to ask... how would you say going to see a doctor would be relevant in this situation?

3 hours ago, mylolita said:

MysteriousTelephone,
 

I see it as, why reduce your chances? Especially if you are struggling. So having a drivers license can only be a positive thing, it won’t be a negative against you. Same for being groomed, smelling great, having a neat wardrobe that compliments you, and widening your experiences/trying new things. I doubt these suggestions are going to harm your chances with women.

 

This is generally appealing stuff for most women. When you get down to each individual woman, what they want personally with vary of course, but having a good career, your own apartment, being able to drive, socialising, smelling great and being groomed and presentable won’t harm.

 

Approaching as many women as you find attractive will not only give you practice at approaching women (even the most smooth guys know they always have more to learn), but it might build your confidence and take some of the doubt or fear away. The more you approach as well, the more likely you are to find someone who you like and who likes you. 
 

Honestly, the most effective men I have witnessed don’t approach women with unusual or intelligent or cryptic interest spiking chat up lines. You just want to not be painfully awkward, that in turn puts her at ease. Something beyond simple often works. A compliment, then direct - “let me buy you a drink” - don’t ask her if you can, she is more likely to say no. Kind of… tell her, but you are asking at the same time. The drink holds her to a bit of conversation (why bars are just so stereotypical for meeting the opposite sex)! 
 

As other women have suggested, being somewhere where there are a lot of the opposite sex just increases your chances! I always say, if I hadn’t been a cocktail waitress for 2 years during college, I would never have met my husband. A classy bar like that, you meet thousands of men night after night. I got chance to talk to so many, simply waitressing. The male staff were so popular as well - ever seen the film with Tom Cruise ‘Cocktail’?! 🤣 

 

I know it’s not a popular suggestion anymore but, there is nothing wrong with a really nice bar in my opinion. Kills the nerves, a stiff drink, for everyone. I always think, half of us wouldn’t have been born had it not been for a club, a bar, and some alcohol!!!

 

I’ve never been to a cooking class and even as a married 32 year old woman with young kids, I would love to try it out, just to gain some skills and mingle!

 

You are in your prime for a man - the 30s is a great age for men. Women normally gravitate towards that age bracket, especially if they want to settle down or get into a serious relationship. It’s not all bad! 
 

x

As much I really appreciate the time you've taken to write this, it really does feel like you're not listening, or reading my responses. I continue to mention that I'm groomed, hygenic, I dress to compliment my features, these are all things I have been doing since I was 18. As much as you can't see me and these are basic things to suggest, I need you to believe me when I say I have got those bases covered. Again, I'm seeing you talk about 'doubt' and 'fear', when I approach women, when I've mentioned none of that: I don't have such doubts or fears, that's really not my issue.

As I continue to say; I am out where single women are, quite a lot of the time. Swing dancing in particular is an environment where women my age often come to meet guys, because partners rotate in classes, it's a great environment to go something physical with a stranger whilst also showcasing something I'm good at. I also do go out to bars & clubs, that's not a problem. I also chat to people and make friends in my gym.

Like I've said earlier, if I spent my evenings and weekends sat in front of a computer then I'd have to change something, but if most nights of the week I'm out doing something social, I don't know what to do. I'm glad that you did ok for attention as a hot cocktail waitress, but it's just not the same experience for ugly dudes, so the suggestion of just "go to a bar and you'll meet someone" definitely comes from your world experience, not mine. 

[Batya33]

Do you have close personal friends who are women -single or otherwise? And sorry if you answered this -do you find yourself generalizing about women or categories of women in a negative way? 

So I have a naive question about swing dancing -a number of my friends partook over the years and yes it's a great way to meet people (my friend married her salsa dancing instructor over 10 years ago!) - I understand about the rotating partners and I went to a sort of type of swing dancing lesson once where yes partners rotated, even partners who were there with dates -I think.  

I was at the wedding of my friend who married her instructor.  Lots of dancers there (including I guess swing dancers as I think her husband taught that as well?).  I was pregnant not showing yet.  My soon to be husband was there with me. 

I excused myself for the restroom and it took me longer (because of the pregnancy).  When I came back my husband was dancing with this woman.  He's a great dancer (took lessons with an ex girlfriend, likes swing music etc). 

I wasn't angry -trust my husband- but I was annoyed.  I stared at her I think.  He came over to me and explained that she asked him to dance.  He said he was here with me, I was coming right back (but I didn't).  She pestered him, explaining that it's how it works with swing dancing - rotating partners.  Except this was a wedding.  Not a swing dancing event.  And my husband had said no. 

My husband gave in as he felt awkward by this point and hoped I'd rescue him soon.  She was treated to a couple more stares from me as I thought it was rude of her how she behaved.

Makes me wonder -a bit -do you find the women you interact with are socially appropriate and are there to meet men to date or is it more for a night out of fun/honing dancing skills? Obviously this was just one woman who lacked basic manners and I had friends who participated in order to meet men (although not the bride really from all I knew).  Just wondering.  I have recommended dancing as you do as a way to meet women. That situation gave me a bit of a pause. 

[Wiseman2]

8 minutes ago, MysteriousTelephone said:

for a car I really would not use. 

No, not buying a car. Just take your driver's test. Why not? At least you could rent a car if you ever needed to. 

Of course a license, cooking lessons, or help with your anxiety isn't going to put you on the cover of Time magazine's "sexiest man alive", but it won't hurt you either.

So it's a win-win situation Instead of defeatist and self-undermining thinking.

[Batya33]

Just now, Wiseman2 said:

No, not buying a car. Just take your driver's test. Why not? At least you could rent a car if you ever needed to. 

Of course a license, cooking lessons, or help with your anxiety isn't going to put you on the cover of Time magazine's "sexiest man alive", but it won't hurt you either.

So it's a win-win situation Instead of defeatist and self-undermining thinking.

I never once had to ask a guy who lived in the city I lived in when I did all my dating for 24 years for a ride somewhere.  Some guys who lived outside the city preferred to live outside the city, preferred to go out outside the city and/or were allergic to public transportation and were really attached to their vehicles so they drove because they wanted to do stuff outside the city. 

I dated men who kept their cars in the suburbs at their parents' homes and lived in the city and often they paid or offered to pay for me to take a taxi home if it was late at night and if they didn't feel like walking me home and/or taking a bus with me (otherwise if late at night I would have taken a taxi and paid for it).  

I tried not to date men who weren't comfortable taking public transportation (other than middle of the night etc or to bad neighborhoods) which is how really everyone got around -wasn't up for that level of inconvenience and expense.  Very few people I knew parked a car on city streets or paid $$$ for a garage.  Parking could mean sitting in your car for an hour until there was alternate side of the street parking shift. 

I got my driver's license at age 49.  I failed two road tests at age 19.  I drove some -with my husband in the car, and by myself twice.  When I got my license my son was 7.  I was terrified to drive him around in our city we live in now - horrible traffic, city driving.  I almost enjoyed driving in the suburbs and I tolerated driving in the city (which I did with my husband in the car, and/or with my instructor before I got my license). I haven't driven in a couple of years -lots more traffic around here plus lots more road rage and lockdown also meant no real need. According to my husband and instructors and nice friends who took me out to practice, I am a good driver.  I just hate it and am fearful of it.

If we ever move to a suburb I will make myself be a neighborhood driver.  By then hopefully my son will be driving.  If we have to.  I do not want my son to drive me around! My husband drives my son around very occasionally - my son rode the school bus for 5.5 years, then was home virtually for over a year (covid) and we walk to school.    

I walk to all shopping, take public transportation to medical appointments or walk. 

I never ever asked for lifts or depended on people - one time in one emergency with my son at school - couldn't do a car service -one time in the last 13 years.  I reciprocated in kind and she was so happy to be there for me that one day.

My mother never drove, she is 87 -no need.  Very typical where I grew up and dated.

Yes- just like where I did my dating if you didn't take public transport it was a huge negative for dating -if you live where driving is commonplace I agree it is a negative. I was never judged for not having a license.  I don't think I knew any men who didn't have a license and I also never asked -wasn't relevant.  Interesting perspectives!  Please know that a drivers license and its meaning is highly subjective.

[mylolita]

1 hour ago, Batya33 said:

I never once had to ask a guy who lived in the city I lived in when I did all my dating for 24 years for a ride somewhere.  Some guys who lived outside the city preferred to live outside the city, preferred to go out outside the city and/or were allergic to public transportation and were really attached to their vehicles so they drove because they wanted to do stuff outside the city. 

I dated men who kept their cars in the suburbs at their parents' homes and lived in the city and often they paid or offered to pay for me to take a taxi home if it was late at night and if they didn't feel like walking me home and/or taking a bus with me (otherwise if late at night I would have taken a taxi and paid for it).  

I tried not to date men who weren't comfortable taking public transportation (other than middle of the night etc or to bad neighborhoods) which is how really everyone got around -wasn't up for that level of inconvenience and expense.  Very few people I knew parked a car on city streets or paid $$$ for a garage.  Parking could mean sitting in your car for an hour until there was alternate side of the street parking shift. 

I got my driver's license at age 49.  I failed two road tests at age 19.  I drove some -with my husband in the car, and by myself twice.  When I got my license my son was 7.  I was terrified to drive him around in our city we live in now - horrible traffic, city driving.  I almost enjoyed driving in the suburbs and I tolerated driving in the city (which I did with my husband in the car, and/or with my instructor before I got my license). I haven't driven in a couple of years -lots more traffic around here plus lots more road rage and lockdown also meant no real need. According to my husband and instructors and nice friends who took me out to practice, I am a good driver.  I just hate it and am fearful of it.

If we ever move to a suburb I will make myself be a neighborhood driver.  By then hopefully my son will be driving.  If we have to.  I do not want my son to drive me around! My husband drives my son around very occasionally - my son rode the school bus for 5.5 years, then was home virtually for over a year (covid) and we walk to school.    

I walk to all shopping, take public transportation to medical appointments or walk. 

I never ever asked for lifts or depended on people - one time in one emergency with my son at school - couldn't do a car service -one time in the last 13 years.  I reciprocated in kind and she was so happy to be there for me that one day.

My mother never drove, she is 87 -no need.  Very typical where I grew up and dated.

Yes- just like where I did my dating if you didn't take public transport it was a huge negative for dating -if you live where driving is commonplace I agree it is a negative. I was never judged for not having a license.  I don't think I knew any men who didn't have a license and I also never asked -wasn't relevant.  Interesting perspectives!  Please know that a drivers license and its meaning is highly subjective.

Would you be content and happy if your husband couldn’t drive Batya? 
 

For some women I guess it might not be a negative, but I think, why didn’t they pass their test? Why can’t they drive? Anxiety? Nervousness? Just couldn’t pass it for some reason (a few people just have a mental block about driving - or take a lot of attempts to pass!)

 

I think a man especially being able to drive is very attractive and a responsible thing, it’s a great life skill as well.

 

I went to school with a guy who passed his test within 3 days after turning 17, and then got a pilots license when he was older but still relatively young (27). He also drove a motorcycle and started working jobs when he was very young. It was kinda fearless and not gonna lie, sexy! My cousin also drove a tractor at 14 (there is a strange little law in the UK where you can drive on private land at 14 but the vehicle has to be a certain specification). He was grown up and independent from a young age. He now owns his own business where he hires out large expensive machinery on a very big scale, has about 200 people working for him. 
 

It’s nice to be picked up for a date by the guy, especially as you get to know him. It’s nice to take drives together. Often when you are young, your car is your only sanctuary away from parents (okay somewhere to make out!). 
 

OP and others think it’s irrelevant but it is very relevant to me, personally! 
 

x

[mylolita]

The swing dancing thing! Well! 
 

I have been to one swing dancing class! I am… a dancer! I got by! What I noticed was, and OP correct me if I am wrong, is that those classes have their core regulars who always attend, and the influx of new people, new girls coming in, isn’t very high? You might get a couple of new people every month? Most drop out, some stay on?

 

The reason I suggest a traditional bar is because the volume of strangers and new people is very high - the turn over of new women, also very high. There will be potentially hundreds of women there in any single night you have never met or seen.

 

I mean, I know maybe “the club” or “the bar” seems shady to some but, it’s where so many couples meet! My parents met at their local country club. Eric Clapton was playing, something like that! They were having drinks, my Dad was out with his older brother, my mum was with her cousin. I wouldn’t be here if it weren’t for that club! My husbands parents met at a bar. I’m sure many do. You can’t rule it out completely as a way to meet women unless you maybe are against drinking or nightlife. Some people it’s not their scene so I totally get that, but there is no doubt in my mind, a fantastic way to meet a high volume of new women.

 

I am listening as well - I was defending others suggestion about clothes and hygiene even though you have that covered, because it is a valid suggestion to make. You have to make sure the basics are covered. We are trying to get to the source of your issue, ticking off potential stumbling blocks. 

 

You claim confidence but… a confident guy wouldn’t be asking online for advice and opinion. You must be feeling it in some way to be here. If you have it all worked out and it’s just your face that is the problem, what more is there to do? Keep trying, or give up? I am being sincere when I ask you that.

 

My impression is your attitude is the issue, this is a good and a bad thing. It means you can change something, as your face is much harder to alter. But no one wants to hear their attitude might be the cause of the problem. I realise that is a hard pill to swallow, and that you feel I am wrong. Maybe I am, but that is my instinct from talking back and forth with you on here OP.  
 

I think we are all trying to be as constructive as we can be. I have even tried to suggest lines and ways to talk to women. What you say and how you say it does matter. “Can I buy you a drink” and “Let me buy you a drink” or “What are you drinking?- different phases make all the difference in my opinion. Ever talked to a sales person on the art of persuasion or negotiation? We all have to sell ourselves at some point in our life, never more so when we first meet the opposite sex in that first 5 minutes. 
 

x

[Batya33]

14 minutes ago, mylolita said:

Would you be content and happy if your husband couldn’t drive Batya? 
 

For some women I guess it might not be a negative, but I think, why didn’t they pass their test? Why can’t they drive? Anxiety? Nervousness? Just couldn’t pass it for some reason (a few people just have a mental block about driving - or take a lot of attempts to pass!)

 

I think a man especially being able to drive is very attractive and a responsible thing, it’s a great life skill as well.

 

I went to school with a guy who passed his test within 3 days after turning 17, and then got a pilots license when he was older but still relatively young (27). He also drive a motorcycle. It was kinda fearless and not gonna lie, sexy! My cousin also drove a tractor at 14 (there is a strange little law in the UK where you can drive on private land at 14 but the vehicle has to be a certain specification). He was grown up and independent from a young age. He now owns his own business where he hires out large expensive machinery on a very big scale, has about 200 people working for him. 
 

It’s nice to be picked up for a date by the guy, especially as you get to know him. It’s nice to take drives together. Often when you are young, your car is your only sanctuary away from parents (okay somewhere to make out!). 
 

OP and others think it’s irrelevant but it is very relevant to me, personally! 
 

x

But no men had to pick me up when we dated.  It was all public transportation/walking/occasional taxi.  It was inconvenient if they had to drive and finding parking or pay $$$ for a garage.  It was irrelevant to me.  What showed responsibility to me was him showing up on time, having a strong work ethic, being a hard worker, being there for his family and friends, being financially stable and a good saver.  I don't even remember being asked if I had a license other than as part of similarly casual questions like "have you ever been to Iceland or hiked the Grand Tetons?"  I'm baffled as to why this is a thing.

When I was a teen some of the guys outside the city got their licenses ASAP.  Some preferred to pick me up for dates.  And drive although it wasn't at all necessary and was more of a hindrance.  Sanctuary? Our sanctuary was our playground -the big city -walking all over, exploring, restaurants, art galleries, huge parks with trails, dance clubs, the opera, museums, comedy clubs, people watching - no issues of drunk driving either.  No designated driver.  I did date men who lived in the burbs but they preferred to come into the city with or without a car and park the car.  My parents often let them stay over if it got late.

When I was a teenager we had far more responsibility and independence than our suburban counterparts who needed a parent or sitter to drive them around just for a social life.  We didn't.

As a parent of a child having relocated to a city where public transit is not as good it was essential that one of us be able to drive and it is why I worked on getting my license starting at age 47.  My son even helped me learn to parallel park with his hot wheels cars. 

But I don't see it as responsible just a necessary evil of living where public transportation isn't as good.  I don't like being in a car, he is a good driver who understandably finds city driving annoying and stressful.  I am thankful we have a garage in the building and it's not expensive.  

All else equal I choose walking and public transport if at all possible. Today I just can't and it's annoying -we have to go to a one time orientation at the animal shelter.  Husband is away and it's not in a good area or easily accessible via public transport so uber it is.  Even if husband were home I don't think I'd ask him to drive us because it's inconvenient for him.  I'd rather he get his work done and have time for interesting/fun things!

For example I have a hair appointment Thursday afternoon.  It takes about 40 minutes walking/train to get there.  Driving is anywhere from 15-45 minutes depending on traffic. 

My friend said why can't your husband drive you and wait around or go at a time when he and your son hang around the area.   To me this is a surreal idea.  I like being on my own -getting to and from places on my own.  I started riding trains without my parents at age 11. My mom rode trains for over 80 years and stopped in the last year or so because she is 87 plus the increase in crime in her area.  It just is enough.  She depends on no one to drive her anywhere. Her friend drives her to their twice weekly activity 15 minutes away or so -the friend loves my mom and loves the company.  My mom otherwise would simply not go and would be ok with not going as she is very busy with lots of other social stuff.  

I think this is related because the OP is trying to explain that driving is not a universal skill or thing.  I plan at some point to practice again as it's good for me to be able to drive in an emergency (which was a motivator for me finally getting my license).  I have friends in the burbs who would rather drive an hour in rush hour traffic to attend jury duty downtown rather than drive five minutes to the commuter train, take a 20 minute train ride then walk a few blocks "I'd do it if you were with me" they said.  So who is  the responsible adult?

[mylolita]

1 minute ago, Batya33 said:

But no men had to pick me up when we dated.  It was all public transportation/walking/occasional taxi.  It was inconvenient if they had to drive and finding parking or pay $$$ for a garage.  It was irrelevant to me.  What showed responsibility to me was him showing up on time, having a strong work ethic, being a hard worker, being there for his family and friends, being financially stable and a good saver.  I don't even remember being asked if I had a license other than as part of similarly casual questions like "have you ever been to Iceland or hiked the Grand Tetons?"  I'm baffled as to why this is a thing.

As a parent of a child having relocated to a city where public transit is not as good it was essential that one of us be able to drive and it is why I worked on getting my license starting at age 47.  My son even helped me learn to parallel park with his hot wheels cars. 

But I don't see it as responsible just a necessary evil of living where public transportation isn't as good.  I don't like being in a car, he is a good driver who understandably finds city driving annoying and stressful.  I am thankful we have a garage in the building and it's not expensive.  

All else equal I choose walking and public transport if at all possible. Today I just can't and it's annoying -we have to go to a one time orientation at the animal shelter.  Husband is away and it's not in a good area or easily accessible via public transport so uber it is.  Even if husband were home I don't think I'd ask him to drive us because it's inconvenient for him.  I'd rather he get his work done and have time for interesting/fun things!

For example I have a hair appointment Thursday afternoon.  It takes about 40 minutes walking/train to get there.  Driving is anywhere from 15-45 minutes depending on traffic. 

My friend said why can't your husband drive you and wait around or go at a time when he and your son hang around the area.   To me this is a surreal idea.  I like being on my own -getting to and from places on my own.  I started riding trains without my parents at age 11. My mom rode trains for over 80 years and stopped in the last year or so because she is 87 plus the increase in crime in her area.  It just is enough.  She depends on no one to drive her anywhere. Her friend drives her to their twice weekly activity 15 minutes away or so -the friend loves my mom and loves the company.  My mom otherwise would simply not go and would be ok with not going as she is very busy with lots of other social stuff.  

I think this is related because the OP is trying to explain that driving is not a universal skill or thing.  I plan at some point to practice again as it's good for me to be able to drive in an emergency (which was a motivator for me finally getting my license).  I have friends in the burbs who would rather drive an hour in rush hour traffic to attend jury duty downtown rather than drive five minutes to the commuter train, take a 20 minute train ride then walk a few blocks "I'd do it if you were with me" they said.  So who is  the responsible adult?

But Batya, would you be okay with your husband not being able to drive? You two getting public transport everywhere for the rest of, or maybe you driving him when he needed it instead of it being the other way around?

 

Is being able to do something that is a skill attractive? I think so! Driving is a skill, there is a test for it. If you are in control of a car it is highly responsible. You could kill someone if you aren’t paying attention, or kill yourself or others in the car.

 

I think at least having your test passed is a big plus for anyone! You don’t have to own a gorgeous luxury car or anything, although I have to say, for dating prospects, I’m a realist here - that wouldn’t hurt would it, if you turned up in a Porsche to pick up a date. I think most women would think… not too bad! 
 

x

[mylolita]

And I have to say, most people can drive, have a license, so it does stand out as an unusual thing for me personally, especially if you get to your 30s and never passed your test. I’m trying to rack my brains and I actually don’t know anyone who can’t drive! I’m sure I must, but no one comes to mind. Only much younger people under 21.

 

Maybe it’s different here in the UK. A guy learning to drive is like a rite of passage. Drive your car, get your weekend job, get a girlfriend… that kinda thing. It was the first and only thing my Dad wanted to do! He was obsessed with it, and all his friends were in the 60s, he couldn’t wait to get behind the wheel, even if it was driving a banger! He got his little part time job whilst he was studying and took my Mum out at the weekends. I can only see a positive thing from it, I can’t see any draw backs in having passed your test. 
 

I do get the argument within a city, owning a car is for the super rich. I mean, in London, those people sitting in traffic in their super cars - yes. What a blow out. Do they need too, when their office is a half hour walk away? Definitely not! Is it kinda stupid? Sure! It’s just a big old flaunt isn’t it. They don’t want to sit with everyone else and ride crammed into the underground, they want to sit in their air conditioned luxury car, listening to their music, sipping their coffee. 
 

I have absolutely nothing against public transport. I know how to get a train, a bus - catch trains often, live insanely close to a train station, my son is obsessed with trains and wants to be a train driver when he’s older he tells me! 
 

I just don’t see the argument against passing your test and just having that extra bow to your arrow. 
 

I mean, if I had loads of money and the brains I would absolutely love to get a pilots license. Is it useless? Of course! I’m not charting my own private plane here but it’s so b****y COOL! 
 

x

[mylolita]

 

[DarkCh0c0]

@mylolita you nailed it. However, don't count on @MysteriousTelephoneto watch the video as he doesn't have time to do so apparently. I forwarded a useful video previously, but OP won't take a look 🤓

That aside, I love Jordan's talks!! He's very good at what he does.

[Batya33]

55 minutes ago, mylolita said:

I just don’t see the argument against passing your test and just having that extra bow to your arrow. 
 

There is no argument.  I made sure at 49 to pass my road test (third try!!) even though I failed twice at 19 and gave up. I did it because I'd relocated for my husband's job and was a mom -it was my responsibility to be able to drive in an emergency particularly since my husband was having to fly back to our hometown frequently to care for his parents and his business travel was regular. 

But now I don't think I could drive in an emergency so my plan is to practice again at some point -now that son is 13 and lyft is a thing it's less necessary (meaning no more car seat which was a real obstacle when he was young -I'd have had to cart it around if I took a car service or waited to order one that had one -a proper one- installed).  

I understand the rite of passage thing.  Same in the suburbs outside of where I grew up.  Not a thing at all within the city.  I'm able to relate to how it is in the suburbs despite being slightly allergic to them (like to visit though!!) - I am getting the impression here that there's not a reciprocal understanding of why having a drivers license might not be a biggie or a thing if most people don't need to drive or wish to in a city. My rite of passage was that day I took the train home from school when I was 11 with some older girls and no parents -school let out early and there was no bus.  That was a milestone for sure.  And fun!!!

[Carnatic]

54 minutes ago, mylolita said:

 

That guy is a horrendous example of a human being and anyone taking his advice deserves to still be single.

And that's all I'll say about that.

[DarkCh0c0]

3 minutes ago, Carnatic said:

That guy is a horrendous example of a human being and anyone taking his advice deserves to still be single.

And that's all I'll say about that.

Interesting. Why do you think so?

[Carnatic]

Just now, DarkCh0c0 said:

Interesting. Why do you think so?

He just stands for everything I stand against, and I know people will claim he's misunderstood but I've seen enough of his content to have decided he isn't misunderstood he's just a nasty, misogynistic, bigoted demagogue.

[Carnatic]

I notice we're back on the topic of driving.

I don't think the OP has said where he's from, but the idea of being able to drive and sometimes also owning a car being an essential marker of adulthood does vary depending on where you live and what age group you're in.

I would say that for the majority of the world's population though, whether or not you're able to drive by the age of 30 is a non-issue and if you're dating then the person you're dating may have no idea whether you drive or not. I don't care, I've never been on a date with a woman who cared and there's no correlation I can think of between which of my friends drive and relationship stating / dating success.