About to end my 90 day fiancee adventure

[LotusBlack]

10 hours ago, Atlguy said:

This is my first post here.  I've been with my now fiancee for a year and a half.  During that time we've spent a grand total of 20 days together, but talk daily and skype weekly. 

She has a 14 year old son who could use a father, as his dad has been gone for 10 years (not involved, another family).  I've met him, he's a good kid and I would like to step in and help with parenting. 

The issues are many: Culturally,  we seem to not understand each other's life/expectations and have conflicting ideas about what marriage looks like.  For example, she initially expected me to fully support them while she keeps what she makes for herself and her son.  My Russian friend who lives here and immigrated 15 years ago set her straight on that idea.   I think the biggest thing is her viewing us as separate vs a real family.  She has reluctantly agreed to help with bills once she can work. 

Additionally, I keep coming back to her being rigid and always having to be right and never apologizing.  Well, that was my mother.  I don't want that.  The challenge is its so great in person 95% of the time.  So I don't know if the distance is taking a toll or if I should just call the whole thing off.  I don't ant to make this a long post, but please ask questions if you want more clarification.  Bottom line is I've made all concessions and compromises, invested my money (she's contributed nothing financially), and am not getting my needs met.   

The latest kicker is we've lost time (due to an incompetent attorney here and me having to hire one there as well), with the final step (her interviewing with the U.S. Embassy) which has really thrown plans off by about 2 months.  She's insisting that if her and her son can't get here until the end of June (our estimated timeline based on delays), she wants me to make a decision and marry by the first of August.  Otherwise, she would leave because her son has to take an entrance exam mid-August to get into high school in Ukraine.  I'm feeling like 30 days (when we should have 90) won't be enough to see if this will work.  She says she has no doubts, which is surprising given our disagreements.  We've done pre-marital counseling with mixed results, but feeling good about it generally.  I'm starting to feel there are too many red flags with her and she expects me to do all the work for this relationship based on what she's shown me so far.  Then again, we haven't lived together yet to really explore this.  I'm confused about what to do next.

To be fair, I haven’t read the whole thread yet, so might say something already addressed. But, don’t go ahead with this marriage. She isn’t in it for your relationship. She’s in it for herself, that’s why she wants to keep your lives emotionally and financially separate and just legally together. The writing is on the wall for that and you’re going to likely end up in a world of pain.

My father, who was married to my mother for 30 years before they divorced, eventually met a Chinese lady while he was living in Singapore. She turned out to be one of the richest women in China and had a 10 year old son at the time and whose father lived in New Zealand (we’re Australian). She was so much richer than my father and had a pathway to NZ (and therefore Australia), so we never suspected she had ulterior  motives. They got married and lived in China half the time and Aus the other half. 5 years they were together. 5. She was the sweetest woman that whole time. Literally, the day she got her Australian green card the switch flipped and she became the nastiest person I’ve ever met. She took my poor father for everything he had and he had to leave retirement and go back to work. He retired again just a few months ago at 74.

Your partner sounds a lot like my ex step-mother after she turned nasty. I’d stay well away from women who aren’t looking for unity within a union. 

edit: I’ve gone back and read the rest of the thread and my advice is still the same. I will also say that I used to know a middle aged Ukrainian man 6 years ago who was very well educated, a lovely guy, and very hard working. He told me that many Ukrainians just want to get out of the Ukraine because there is very little opportunity there, in his opinion. I’d really think hard on her motives with you. EVEN if she isn’t looking at you as her ticket out, love is about compromise and sometimes sacrifice. It’s about respecting your partner and wanting the best for them and being part of their journey in pursuing a life of happiness, and vice versa. It doesn’t seem to me that you and your happiness are factored into the equation she has drafted. THAT would be enough for me to realise that this relationship isn’t built on love, whichever way you slice it. I’m sorry for that, truly. Your person is out there. Don’t squish yourself into a box you don’t fit because you’re afraid you’ll miss out. Getting a bad backache from twisting into an unnatural shape for you will only lead you to feeling more than just lonely, and you’ll be so busy doing that that you’ll fail to notice the right woman for you. Also, if you feel your work might not be supported in an area you want to live, consider having a career change so your personal life can have an upgrade and you’ll feel happier within yourself.

 

[Tinydance]

I basically agree with everyone else...Also you mentioned you want a family. You are happy to be a stepfather and not have children of your own? I'm not sure how plausible this plan is for you, but I think you should move to a very big city and look for friends and a girlfriend/wife there. Why have you been living somewhere that you don't fit in and you have no opportunity to meet women either? I mean, I am actually genuinely curious why you've been living there. I'm not just having a dig at you. I understand you divorced 12 years ago but why did that mean your chance at finding a real relationship was over?

I'm not speaking for anyone else, but I'm 36 and I have no kids and never married. I really want kids. I know you are older but personally I would have kids with a 52-year-old man I'd I loved him and I knew we could have a good life together. I don't really understand why you just gave up meeting women in your own country and are looking for "mail order brides", so to speak.

I'm from an Eastern European country originally but came to Australia as a child. I know a lot about the whole mail order bride thing. Unfortunately I think many women who meet men from the west are not really in love with them and it's more a transactional relationship for them. And to be honest, how can you be in love with each other for real if you've only spent twenty days together in person? You've spent less than three weeks with this woman and you want to marry? Unless you're disfigured or disabled in some way and you really have no other options at all, this seems like a mistake.

[MissCanuck]

9 hours ago, boltnrun said:

Yeah, but when she moves to the US and marries you she won't have to work anymore. Big benefit for her

Yeah, exactly.

Her expectations suggest she wants out of Ukraine and wants you to support her, OP. She wouldn't be looking for a foreign man otherwise, and prepared to uproot her son from his home and move him across the world. 

Either way, this is just not a good plan. You need to tell her sooner rather than later that you do not wish to proceed. 

[lostandhurt]

Marrying anyone because you are afraid of being alone forever is a terrible idea.  Then pile on what you wrote about her and the situation and it becomes a nobrainer.

  I may have missed it but I didn't see any mention of deep love for each other.

Be smart, don't walk down this path or isle as the case may be.

Lost

[Jibralta]

11 hours ago, LotusBlack said:

She was so much richer than my father and had a pathway to NZ (and therefore Australia), so we never suspected she had ulterior  motives. They got married and lived in China half the time and Aus the other half. 5 years they were together. 5. She was the sweetest woman that whole time. Literally, the day she got her Australian green card the switch flipped and she became the nastiest person I’ve ever met. She took my poor father for everything he had and he had to leave retirement and go back to work. He retired again just a few months ago at 74.

Wow.

Well, that's the thing with truly nasty people: They do it for no reason. It's simply their nature. 

It's just like that old allegory:

Quote

A scorpion wants to cross a river but cannot swim, so it asks a frog to carry it across. The frog hesitates, afraid that the scorpion might sting, but the scorpion argues that if it did that, they would both drown. The frog considers this argument sensible and agrees to transport the scorpion. The frog lets the scorpion climb on its back and then begins to swim. Midway across the river, the scorpion stings the frog anyway, dooming them both. The dying frog asks the scorpion why it stung despite knowing the consequence, to which the scorpion replies: "I couldn't help it. It's in my nature."

 

[Atlguy]

12 hours ago, LotusBlack said:

To be fair, I haven’t read the whole thread yet, so might say something already addressed. But, don’t go ahead with this marriage. She isn’t in it for your relationship. She’s in it for herself, that’s why she wants to keep your lives emotionally and financially separate and just legally together. The writing is on the wall for that and you’re going to likely end up in a world of pain.

My father, who was married to my mother for 30 years before they divorced, eventually met a Chinese lady while he was living in Singapore. She turned out to be one of the richest women in China and had a 10 year old son at the time and whose father lived in New Zealand (we’re Australian). She was so much richer than my father and had a pathway to NZ (and therefore Australia), so we never suspected she had ulterior  motives. They got married and lived in China half the time and Aus the other half. 5 years they were together. 5. She was the sweetest woman that whole time. Literally, the day she got her Australian green card the switch flipped and she became the nastiest person I’ve ever met. She took my poor father for everything he had and he had to leave retirement and go back to work. He retired again just a few months ago at 74.

Your partner sounds a lot like my ex step-mother after she turned nasty. I’d stay well away from women who aren’t looking for unity within a union. 

edit: I’ve gone back and read the rest of the thread and my advice is still the same. I will also say that I used to know a middle aged Ukrainian man 6 years ago who was very well educated, a lovely guy, and very hard working. He told me that many Ukrainians just want to get out of the Ukraine because there is very little opportunity there, in his opinion. I’d really think hard on her motives with you. EVEN if she isn’t looking at you as her ticket out, love is about compromise and sometimes sacrifice. It’s about respecting your partner and wanting the best for them and being part of their journey in pursuing a life of happiness, and vice versa. It doesn’t seem to me that you and your happiness are factored into the equation she has drafted. THAT would be enough for me to realise that this relationship isn’t built on love, whichever way you slice it. I’m sorry for that, truly. Your person is out there. Don’t squish yourself into a box you don’t fit because you’re afraid you’ll miss out. Getting a bad backache from twisting into an unnatural shape for you will only lead you to feeling more than just lonely, and you’ll be so busy doing that that you’ll fail to notice the right woman for you. Also, if you feel your work might not be supported in an area you want to live, consider having a career change so your personal life can have an upgrade and you’ll feel happier within yourself.

 

I've questioned her about this repeatedly.  "Are you moving here for me/us or just your son or you and your son?" She is adamant that its for me.  Another lesser point she made which doesn't hold water to me is "why would I move to Oklahoma if it wasn't for a man I love?".  She says that because I've told her generally how much this state sucks.  Worst case scenario (and I'm completely prepared for this) is she comes here and after 2 months or less we realize this will never work, we don't marry, and I send her back.  If we're married less than a year, she has to go back.  She'll land on her feet because she owns a condo there (almost outright now) that at the very least she can sell.  I'm not walking in with rose colored glasses at all.  She's shown me who she is, but she's shown me her good sides much more in person.  She's been easy going and she even said the first time we met it felt like "home" because of how naturally everything was.  So this is why I have a hard time with this decision.  I do love her, but the butterflies are gone after 18 months.  I see who she is and know what I'm getting into.  I have also learned techniques to diffuse arguments and make her instantly apologize for bad behavior or thoughtless behavior or whatever.  I just say "when you did X, I felt Y" and its instantly diffused and she genuinely cares how I feel.  So its a mixed bag with her.  She has also agreed to a prenup, so thats important.  My attorney also told me the government doesn't go after the man (or person, since women do this also) who brings someone here if they get government benefits.  She's too independent to even file, I would imagine, but you never know I guess.

[Atlguy]

10 hours ago, Tinydance said:

I basically agree with everyone else...Also you mentioned you want a family. You are happy to be a stepfather and not have children of your own? I'm not sure how plausible this plan is for you, but I think you should move to a very big city and look for friends and a girlfriend/wife there. Why have you been living somewhere that you don't fit in and you have no opportunity to meet women either? I mean, I am actually genuinely curious why you've been living there. I'm not just having a dig at you. I understand you divorced 12 years ago but why did that mean your chance at finding a real relationship was over?

I'm not speaking for anyone else, but I'm 36 and I have no kids and never married. I really want kids. I know you are older but personally I would have kids with a 52-year-old man I'd I loved him and I knew we could have a good life together. I don't really understand why you just gave up meeting women in your own country and are looking for "mail order brides", so to speak.

I'm from an Eastern European country originally but came to Australia as a child. I know a lot about the whole mail order bride thing. Unfortunately I think many women who meet men from the west are not really in love with them and it's more a transactional relationship for them. And to be honest, how can you be in love with each other for real if you've only spent twenty days together in person? You've spent less than three weeks with this woman and you want to marry? Unless you're disfigured or disabled in some way and you really have no other options at all, this seems like a mistake.

There's a lot here to address.  Meeting someone here will not happen, thats a fact.  Long distance within the U.S. doesn't work because mostly the women won't do it because they're highly sought after so why make the effort? 

 

I've been living here because of golden handcuffs of a good job and I can't find a similar job elsewhere.  Simple as that.  NOT for lack of effort, trust me on that one! I network my a*s off on LinkedIn and calling hiring managers in Atlanta, Dallas, Nashville, and other cities I would like more than here.  I have recruiters who I bug all the time so they don't forget me.  My resume is impeccable.  Opportunities just aren't there or I'm unaware of them and 1-2 months late finding out.  Story of my life the past 5 years!

 

This wasn't a mail order bride.  I have to keep repeating that.  This happened organically, so to speak after carefully paying attention to her words, common goals, and her personality generally.  She's shown me she really loves me, more-so in person, but I know she does.  Her issues are more cultural and maybe upbringing and getting to the bottom of her "triggers" has been very difficult.  Getting her to be more open about her own past and issues is coming along, but slowly.  But its more about how our personalities match or if they do than attraction, her using me, or anything else.

[Andrina]

From Forbes.com

In the case of marriages that are less than two years old, the foreign spouse is granted conditional permanent residence. On the basis of that conditional green card, the foreign spouse comes to live with the sponsor in America. At the two-year mark of the relationship, immigration officials review the marriage to see if the couple is still together. Those spouses that satisfy officials of the bona fides of their relationship get approved for permanent status. Those who fail are required to leave the country.

It sounds straightforward enough, but often it can get complicated. One of the requirements the U.S. imposes on a resident who seeks to sponsor a foreign spouse is an affidavit of support. Filing such a document imposes a 10-year liability on the sponsor for certain types of government-based financial assistance that the foreign spouse - and the spouse’s children - may access in the future.

Let that sink in.

The theory goes that the sponsor should be held responsible for the costs of a foreign national who, say, goes on welfare after the break-up of a marriage. In that situation, the U.S. government may sue the sponsor to recover the costs involved.

In one case I had not long ago, the government was pursuing my client as a sponsor for $90,000 in social services benefits that were incurred by the sponsored parties several years ago. The sponsor argued he should not be held liable because he was disabled by illness and could therefore not support himself, never mind others. The government did not buy that excuse. They wanted their money.

I Owe How Much?

Often, the realization that a U.S. sponsor is on the hook for a foreign spouse's government debts is a rude awakening. In such moments, the sponsors invariably look for ways to relieve themselves of these liabilities, such as arranging for the removal of the now divorced foreign spouse. If the couple is still on speaking terms, and the foreign spouse is unhappy in the U.S., the spouse may be persuaded to leave the U.S. But this is rare.

A more popular, if sometimes more mischievous, method of addressing the problem is a so-called “poison pen letter,” where the sponsor writes to U.S. authorities outlining all the failings of the foreigner and calls on the government to remove that spouse. On occasion, such letters accomplish their goal and the foreign spouse ends up deported. More often, however, the foreign spouse gains permission to remain in the United States despite the marriage breakdown by proving extreme hardship or that the marriage was entered into in good faith or that they or the children of the marriage were subject to extreme cruelty.

As might be expected, the situation gets especially complicated for a disillusioned sponsor when there are children involved. For one thing, chances for the foreign spouse to show that the marriage was entered into in good faith dramatically increase. A showing of extreme hardship is also made easier.

Still, a foreign spouse must prove certain details to get approval to remain in the United States. First, the foreign spouse must prove that the marriage was a legal marriage in the place where the wedding took place and that it was not terminated. Second, they must show that the marriage was not entered into for the purpose of procuring U.S. residence (re-run The Proposalstarring Sandra Bulloch or Greencard starring Gerard Depardieu for an entertaining and fairly accurate portrayal of this scam).  Finally, there must be a showing that no fee, apart form an attorney fee, was paid - such as the $5000 to Cylvia Hayes above. One or more of these failings can sabotage the removal of the temporary condition on the green card.

Don't Forget To Ask For The Removal Of Temporary Residence

A huge mistake is when a foreign spouse neglects to file the application to remove the condition regarding temporary residence. From the moment the temporary green card expires, that foreign spouse begins accruing unlawful presence. Where such unlawful presence continues for a period in excess of six months, the foreign spouse becomes subject to a three-year bar to re-entry if he or she is removed or leaves the U.S. If the foreign spouse accrues more than one year of unlawful presence, then that spouse becomes subject to a ten-year bar to re-entry. Trouble is, a spouse isn't made aware of these penalties until they travel outside the U.S. and then try to re-enter. A big surprise awaits at the airport.

Assuming the foreign spouse applies successfully for the removal of temporary status, the green card becomes a permanent green card. In that instance, the sponsor’s financial responsibility often survives for a period of ten years or until the foreign spouse gains U.S. citizenship.

That last part is key. In marriage-based cases, the foreign spouse is eligible to apply for U.S. citizenship after three years of residence. It would be wise to encourage such a foreign spouse to obtain U.S. citizenship as soon as possible, especially if the concern is about future financial responsibility.

Not that your marriage won't be happily ever after, of course.

 

[Atlguy]

23 minutes ago, Andrina said:

From Forbes.com

In the case of marriages that are less than two years old, the foreign spouse is granted conditional permanent residence. On the basis of that conditional green card, the foreign spouse comes to live with the sponsor in America. At the two-year mark of the relationship, immigration officials review the marriage to see if the couple is still together. Those spouses that satisfy officials of the bona fides of their relationship get approved for permanent status. Those who fail are required to leave the country.

It sounds straightforward enough, but often it can get complicated. One of the requirements the U.S. imposes on a resident who seeks to sponsor a foreign spouse is an affidavit of support. Filing such a document imposes a 10-year liability on the sponsor for certain types of government-based financial assistance that the foreign spouse - and the spouse’s children - may access in the future.

Let that sink in.

The theory goes that the sponsor should be held responsible for the costs of a foreign national who, say, goes on welfare after the break-up of a marriage. In that situation, the U.S. government may sue the sponsor to recover the costs involved.

In one case I had not long ago, the government was pursuing my client as a sponsor for $90,000 in social services benefits that were incurred by the sponsored parties several years ago. The sponsor argued he should not be held liable because he was disabled by illness and could therefore not support himself, never mind others. The government did not buy that excuse. They wanted their money.

I Owe How Much?

Often, the realization that a U.S. sponsor is on the hook for a foreign spouse's government debts is a rude awakening. In such moments, the sponsors invariably look for ways to relieve themselves of these liabilities, such as arranging for the removal of the now divorced foreign spouse. If the couple is still on speaking terms, and the foreign spouse is unhappy in the U.S., the spouse may be persuaded to leave the U.S. But this is rare.

A more popular, if sometimes more mischievous, method of addressing the problem is a so-called “poison pen letter,” where the sponsor writes to U.S. authorities outlining all the failings of the foreigner and calls on the government to remove that spouse. On occasion, such letters accomplish their goal and the foreign spouse ends up deported. More often, however, the foreign spouse gains permission to remain in the United States despite the marriage breakdown by proving extreme hardship or that the marriage was entered into in good faith or that they or the children of the marriage were subject to extreme cruelty.

As might be expected, the situation gets especially complicated for a disillusioned sponsor when there are children involved. For one thing, chances for the foreign spouse to show that the marriage was entered into in good faith dramatically increase. A showing of extreme hardship is also made easier.

Still, a foreign spouse must prove certain details to get approval to remain in the United States. First, the foreign spouse must prove that the marriage was a legal marriage in the place where the wedding took place and that it was not terminated. Second, they must show that the marriage was not entered into for the purpose of procuring U.S. residence (re-run The Proposalstarring Sandra Bulloch or Greencard starring Gerard Depardieu for an entertaining and fairly accurate portrayal of this scam).  Finally, there must be a showing that no fee, apart form an attorney fee, was paid - such as the $5000 to Cylvia Hayes above. One or more of these failings can sabotage the removal of the temporary condition on the green card.

Don't Forget To Ask For The Removal Of Temporary Residence

A huge mistake is when a foreign spouse neglects to file the application to remove the condition regarding temporary residence. From the moment the temporary green card expires, that foreign spouse begins accruing unlawful presence. Where such unlawful presence continues for a period in excess of six months, the foreign spouse becomes subject to a three-year bar to re-entry if he or she is removed or leaves the U.S. If the foreign spouse accrues more than one year of unlawful presence, then that spouse becomes subject to a ten-year bar to re-entry. Trouble is, a spouse isn't made aware of these penalties until they travel outside the U.S. and then try to re-enter. A big surprise awaits at the airport.

Assuming the foreign spouse applies successfully for the removal of temporary status, the green card becomes a permanent green card. In that instance, the sponsor’s financial responsibility often survives for a period of ten years or until the foreign spouse gains U.S. citizenship.

That last part is key. In marriage-based cases, the foreign spouse is eligible to apply for U.S. citizenship after three years of residence. It would be wise to encourage such a foreign spouse to obtain U.S. citizenship as soon as possible, especially if the concern is about future financial responsibility.

Not that your marriage won't be happily ever after, of course.

Yikes! I'm going to print this and speak with another attorney.

 

[East4]

22 hours ago, Atlguy said:

Culturally,  we seem to not understand each other's life/expectations and have conflicting ideas about what marriage looks like.  For example, she initially expected me to fully support them while she keeps what she makes for herself and her son. 

Atlguy, is your fiancée Russian? It is in the Russian culture that women expect to be fully financially supported by men, including their children from previous marriages/relationship. This is a big difference in comparison to western mentality and it is not a thing of the past, pretty much expected by the young Russian women too:

https://youtu.be/NWHedf01JEQ

 

 

[Jibralta]

31 minutes ago, East4 said:

Atlguy, is your fiancée Russian? It is in the Russian culture that women expect to be fully financially supported by men, including their children from previous marriages/relationship. This is a big difference in comparison to western mentality and it is not a thing of the past, pretty much expected by the young Russian women too:

The fact that it is a cultural difference makes it understandable that she would see things this way. I'll never criticize another person's culture for being different from mine.

However, I think you should still be very diligent and careful in the way that you pursue this arrangement, Atlguy. She is a stranger, after all. 

I think it's going to be a challenge to prepare for a worst-case scenario without becoming embittered by the process. It almost forces you to see her as an enemy. That's a tough line to walk.

[Atlguy]

19 minutes ago, Jibralta said:

The fact that it is a cultural difference makes it understandable that she would see things this way. I'll never criticize another person's culture for being different from mine.

However, I think you should still be very diligent and careful in the way that you pursue this arrangement, Atlguy. She is a stranger, after all. 

I think it's going to be a challenge to prepare for a worst-case scenario without becoming embittered by the process. It almost forces you to see her as an enemy. That's a tough line to walk.

I agree, it is difficult.  I admit part of my own issue is how I was treated in my first marriage.  I'm determined not to be screwed over again.  So some of my preparation and caution has nothing to do with her.  She is Ukrainian, so close enough.  However, we covered money in pre-marital counseling and she knows my expectations once she's cleared to work.  I want a family, so I'm willing to make some level of sacrifice, but I won't sacrifice everything I've worked for.  I forwarded the Forbes article mentioned here to my attorney already!  Thank you Andrina!

 

We did clear the air a bit yesterday after I started this thread.  I am tired of the rollercoaster though.  More tests to come I'm sure...

[Unsure2021]

You sound really desperate and deciding to marry someone from this place of fear/desperation is likely a bad idea. I would suggest you keep looking for jobs anywhere in the US or even Canada, not just the few states you mentioned. You may not find the exact same job but if it’s similar and in a state that allows you to meet more women and still cover your financial needs, it will likely be worth it.
 

You’re clinging onto this woman as if she’s your last hope for a relationship and that is not true. You seem to be convinced that you can’t find anyone else in your current circumstances, but I suggest you examine that very closely. There are matchmaking services out there and many areas where you could relocate to. It may be tempting to take on a readymade family like this, but the relationship is already rocky and she’ll likely leave you as soon as she gets permanent residency. What does your gut tell you?

[Atlguy]

2 minutes ago, Unsure2021 said:

You sound really desperate and deciding to marry someone from this place of fear/desperation is likely a bad idea. I would suggest you keep looking for jobs anywhere in the US or even Canada, not just the few states you mentioned. You may not find the exact same job but if it’s similar and in a state that allows you to meet more women and still cover your financial needs, it will likely be worth it.
 

You’re clinging onto this woman as if she’s your last hope for a relationship and that is not true. You seem to be convinced that you can’t find anyone else in your current circumstances, but I suggest you examine that very closely. There are matchmaking services out there and many areas where you could relocate to. It may be tempting to take on a readymade family like this, but the relationship is already rocky and she’ll likely leave you as soon as she gets permanent residency. What does your gut tell you?

I understand why you would think I'm desperate, but the reality is I'm very selective.  I stand up for myself all the time and refuse to be walked on (as my dad was) by a woman.  Thats not to say I'm an alpha jerk, just not a pushover.  So my eyes are open.  All your suggestions have already been tried.  Matchmakers aren't worth their fee, trust me on that one. 

You make moving sound so simple, but it isn't.  Simple in theory, not in reality.  Trust me, its all I've worked on for 5 years now.  I just won't move to a state that I don't like such as California, New York, Massachusetts, etc.  Yes, there are more jobs in my industry in those states, but I would hate living there as much or more than here.  I didn't mention all the states I'd consider.  Colorado and Florida are also on the list, but really, southeastern states are what I want for my own quality of life and similar culture to what I'm used to.

I'm not clinging to her, but I also don't want to give up too easy.  Its a hard decision.  My gut tells me this can work and the misunderstandings will diminish over time.  You never really know someone until you live with them and it is a risk.  But I knew my ex-wife for nearly 4 years before we got married and we lived together for a couple years first.  I had no doubts, yet here I sit divorced.  No guarantees.

[Hollyj]

4 minutes ago, Atlguy said:

I understand why you would think I'm desperate, but the reality is I'm very selective.  I stand up for myself all the time and refuse to be walked on (as my dad was) by a woman.  Thats not to say I'm an alpha jerk, just not a pushover.  So my eyes are open.  All your suggestions have already been tried.  Matchmakers aren't worth their fee, trust me on that one. 

You make moving sound so simple, but it isn't.  Simple in theory, not in reality.  Trust me, its all I've worked on for 5 years now.  I just won't move to a state that I don't like such as California, New York, Massachusetts, etc.  Yes, there are more jobs in my industry in those states, but I would hate living there as much or more than here.  I didn't mention all the states I'd consider.  Colorado and Florida are also on the list, but really, southeastern states are what I want for my own quality of life and similar culture to what I'm used to.

I'm not clinging to her, but I also don't want to give up too easy.  Its a hard decision.  My gut tells me this can work and the misunderstandings will diminish over time.  You never really know someone until you live with them and it is a risk.  But I knew my ex-wife for nearly 4 years before we got married and we lived together for a couple years first.  I had no doubts, yet here I sit divorced.  No guarantees.

If you were selective you would not be choosing her. 
 

So many issues staring you in the face, yet you want to forge ahead.  That’s nuts!   I don’t expect the marriage to last long.  Enjoy supporting her ! 

[Unsure2021]

4 minutes ago, Atlguy said:

I understand why you would think I'm desperate, but the reality is I'm very selective.  I stand up for myself all the time and refuse to be walked on (as my dad was) by a woman.  Thats not to say I'm an alpha jerk, just not a pushover.  So my eyes are open.  All your suggestions have already been tried.  Matchmakers aren't worth their fee, trust me on that one. 

You make moving sound so simple, but it isn't.  Simple in theory, not in reality.  Trust me, its all I've worked on for 5 years now.  I just won't move to a state that I don't like such as California, New York, Massachusetts, etc.  Yes, there are more jobs in my industry in those states, but I would hate living there as much or more than here.  I didn't mention all the states I'd consider.  Colorado and Florida are also on the list, but really, southeastern states are what I want for my own quality of life and similar culture to what I'm used to.

I'm not clinging to her, but I also don't want to give up too easy.  Its a hard decision.  My gut tells me this can work and the misunderstandings will diminish over time.  You never really know someone until you live with them and it is a risk.  But I knew my ex-wife for nearly 4 years before we got married and we lived together for a couple years first.  I had no doubts, yet here I sit divorced.  No guarantees.

If you were serious about moving, you would consider these states with plenty of women. Is it the political leanings (i.e democrat) of these states that make you think you’d hate it there? If you work from home now, can you move there temporarily to get a feel for the place? I know moving isn’t easy, as I’ve done it myself, all alone, with no family or friends. But I know that when we want something badly enough, we stop making excuses and do whatever’s necessary to chase our dreams. Best of luck, whichever way you go.

[Atlguy]

25 minutes ago, Unsure2021 said:

If you were serious about moving, you would consider these states with plenty of women. Is it the political leanings (i.e democrat) of these states that make you think you’d hate it there? If you work from home now, can you move there temporarily to get a feel for the place? I know moving isn’t easy, as I’ve done it myself, all alone, with no family or friends. But I know that when we want something badly enough, we stop making excuses and do whatever’s necessary to chase our dreams. Best of luck, whichever way you go.

Not true.  I'm dead serious about moving.  Yes, politics and weather are factors.  Though my home state has gone the wrong way politically, its still my first choice.  If I could work from home, I would have been long gone.  I actually can work from home, but have a horrible boss who plays favorites.  I'm not one. I will not put my financial future at risk and move without a job to go to.  Just can't be that irresponsible.  Some people can, I can't.

Holly, you don't know what you're talking about.  Easy to judge from where you sit.

 

[boltnrun]

I've seen some YouTube videos posted by an American man whose political leanings are what I'd presume yours are.  He too was having trouble finding a woman to marry so he went to the Philippines and married a much younger woman there.  They have chosen to remain in the Philippines for the time being because his wife is very much attached to her family.

I don't know if you're attracted to someone who would be more likely to allow you to take charge and make all the decisions, but this man's wife is that way.  She appears to defer to him in all ways.  Would that appeal to you?  If so, and things don't work out with the Ukrainian woman it might be something to look into.  I would imagine a Filipino woman might welcome the opportunity to move to the US.  And many of them are skilled in professions such as nursing.

[Wiseman2]

14 hours ago, Atlguy said:

I'm determined not to be screwed over again.  

Somehow you already are. Jumping from the frying pan to the fire.

[LotusBlack]

7 hours ago, Atlguy said:

Holly, you don't know what you're talking about.  Easy to judge from where you sit.

 

To be honest, Holly didn’t sound judgy. The truth of the matter is that there are a number of significant issues that speak to your incompatibility with this woman. And, sadly, I agree that should you get married, you won’t find yourself in the happy circumstance you’d hoped to be in. It may be costly to move, etc. but it will cost a lot less than what is likely, unfortunately, in store for you if you go ahead with this marriage.

Have you discussed what your role with her son will look like once you are all together? Do you wish to make parenting decisions? What if she doesn’t want you involved in how to raise him beyond just spending time together? What if she decided she doesn’t want more children? What if she and her son only want to speak Ukrainian to each other, even when you’re around? Are you going to make a committed effort to learn Ukrainian? What if she decides she doesn’t like the state you live in after all and raises the option/desire of moving? To a democratic state even? Are you going to dismiss that because you don’t want to move to any other state but the ones you like? 

Marriage is a partnership but from where I’m sitting, you and her don’t look like you’re even on the same team. There are significant red flags that cannot be overcome with marriage/pre-marriage counselling because they have to do with incompatible core values. That negative human synergy will only become destructive, not improve with time, as you have convinced yourself it will.

I’m sorry, but I think you’re burying your head in the sand on this one because your desire to have a family is currently outweighing your interest in acknowledging the very real and significant issues that are already written on the wall. And simply asking her her agenda isn’t going to be enlightening. She isn’t going to just say, “Yes, I’m doing this for self-serving reasons”. Any mother is not going to uproot her young child from their country to go live in another one with a man they barely know unless her desire to get out far outweighs the risks to her child’s happiness.

And do not forget that your priest/pastor/reverend too has advised you not move ahead with this marriage as you didn’t get through the pre-marriage counselling. 

[Jibralta]

19 hours ago, Atlguy said:

I admit part of my own issue is how I was treated in my first marriage.  I'm determined not to be screwed over again. 

I think you're setting yourself up for failure in a way.

First of all, your previous marriage shouldn't be a consideration in any future relationship. You are now in a completely different relationship. Your first marriage has nothing to do with your new partner. If you are afraid of being screwed over, it's because you don't trust yourself and your own decision-making process. And maybe you shouldn't trust yourself because

Second of all, you're minimizing the impact of cultural differences and culture shock. You can't just expect someone to shed their upbringing and their past, no matter how much they may want to. And I think you can appreciate that because look at what's been happening to you for the past 2+ years. You've been dealing with a degree of culture shock since you moved to Oklahoma.

On 4/15/2021 at 4:36 PM, Atlguy said:

Then was forced to move to a part of the country where nobody likes transplants and its very cliquish.  Making friends here is impossible and I've finally accepted its not me.  I'm social, smart, funny, a normal guy.  I have a career but live in isolation because of the mentality here. 

You're a casualty of slight, imperceptible cultural differences. It's all the more maddening because you're all from the same country. But it happens, I know. I've actually experienced it myself. 

Everybody in Oklahoma is doing what they normally do. You're doing what you normally do. But somehow in the middle, things don't quite align. And you can't quite figure out how to make them align. You just know that something is wrong.

What do you think is going to happen to the lady who is coming from Ukraine? It's gonna be a much bigger jolt for her. And you're going to stand there, secure in your own native land, and tell her what's right and what's wrong. Do you think she can possibly be happy in that situation? Or do you think she will probably feel as alone as you do right now?

You can both agree verbally to understand each other, and you can both have the best intentions to do so. But there's going to be a lot of misalignment simply because your cultures are different. And you're not going to see it coming. You'll get blindsided, and you'll never be sure what actually hit you.

Someone with no relationship baggage would have trouble with this situation. But you have the additional obstacle of lasting resentment towards your first marriage. I think you need to resolve that before you allow yourself to move forward.

[East4]

10 hours ago, boltnrun said:

He too was having trouble finding a woman to marry so he went to the Philippines and married a much younger woman there. 

Actually this is an idea. Atlguy, would you tell your fiancée that you have decided to move to Ukraine and let her help you settle there, to get to know her culture. And that she will have to help you with residence permit. See, if her interest in you changes, once living in the US would not be an option for her.

If true what she says that she is only with you out of love, then she would embrace to have you living in Ukraine.

[Tinydance]

I think the main problem here just in general is not even that she's from the Ukraine, so different culture and language. But it's the fact that you're considering marriage with someone that you'd spent only three weeks with in person. I know you've been video calling and all that for a year and a half but you've barely had a relationship in person. I don't think you can really know someone well on video calls because you don't actually see all of that person's life at all. You don't see how they are at work, with family and friends, even how she is with her son all the time. You don't see how she behaves in all kinds of life situations. Of course she's on her best behaviour on video and phone calls and when you briefly met her in person. She really wants to marry a man from the west and she's trying to make a good impression. Also you don't know if you connect well with her son long term. He is her number one thing in life so getting along with her son would be very important.

I understand what you're saying, you want her to come to the US and just see how the relationship goes in person. I think yes you can try that but don't marry her unless you're absolutely sure that it's going to work. You've already been divorced and "screwed over", as you put it. So would you really want that to happen again by marrying a woman you don't really know? 

To be honest I don't totally buy that you really can't meet anyone in Oklahoma or that you can't move to another state. I'm in Australia myself and never been to the US but from what I know of it, it's a massive country. You have 50 + states there, right? Are you really saying that nowhere in the 50 states you could meet a woman? That seems a bit far fetched. I'm not sure what kind of criteria you have but maybe you're too picky. Are you maybe too looks oriented? I mean, I obviously don't know you at all, I'm just asking. Russian and Ukrainian women are usually beautiful so are you pursuing this woman because she's really attractive?

[Atlguy]

19 hours ago, boltnrun said:

I've seen some YouTube videos posted by an American man whose political leanings are what I'd presume yours are.  He too was having trouble finding a woman to marry so he went to the Philippines and married a much younger woman there.  They have chosen to remain in the Philippines for the time being because his wife is very much attached to her family.

I don't know if you're attracted to someone who would be more likely to allow you to take charge and make all the decisions, but this man's wife is that way.  She appears to defer to him in all ways.  Would that appeal to you?  If so, and things don't work out with the Ukrainian woman it might be something to look into.  I would imagine a Filipino woman might welcome the opportunity to move to the US.  And many of them are skilled in professions such as nursing.

I don't want to be in charge of everything.  I want a partnership, so this is definitely not an option.  Latin would be an option, but I still want a woman to have input into all major decisions.  I'm not a bossy person.   I'm a man and can take charge, but like I said I view women as equal, not less than myself.

 

12 hours ago, LotusBlack said:

To be honest, Holly didn’t sound judgy. The truth of the matter is that there are a number of significant issues that speak to your incompatibility with this woman. And, sadly, I agree that should you get married, you won’t find yourself in the happy circumstance you’d hoped to be in. It may be costly to move, etc. but it will cost a lot less than what is likely, unfortunately, in store for you if you go ahead with this marriage.

Have you discussed what your role with her son will look like once you are all together? Do you wish to make parenting decisions? What if she doesn’t want you involved in how to raise him beyond just spending time together? What if she decided she doesn’t want more children? What if she and her son only want to speak Ukrainian to each other, even when you’re around? Are you going to make a committed effort to learn Ukrainian? What if she decides she doesn’t like the state you live in after all and raises the option/desire of moving? To a democratic state even? Are you going to dismiss that because you don’t want to move to any other state but the ones you like? 

Marriage is a partnership but from where I’m sitting, you and her don’t look like you’re even on the same team. There are significant red flags that cannot be overcome with marriage/pre-marriage counselling because they have to do with incompatible core values. That negative human synergy will only become destructive, not improve with time, as you have convinced yourself it will.

I’m sorry, but I think you’re burying your head in the sand on this one because your desire to have a family is currently outweighing your interest in acknowledging the very real and significant issues that are already written on the wall. And simply asking her her agenda isn’t going to be enlightening. She isn’t going to just say, “Yes, I’m doing this for self-serving reasons”. Any mother is not going to uproot her young child from their country to go live in another one with a man they barely know unless her desire to get out far outweighs the risks to her child’s happiness.

And do not forget that your priest/pastor/reverend too has advised you not move ahead with this marriage as you didn’t get through the pre-marriage counselling. 

We've discussed parenting.  I will have a lesser role early on other than rules and just focus on getting him to trust me.  She does want a father for her son, so I will take that role on.  I will be learning as I go.  English will be the primary language in the house.  Of course she will translate some things into Russian and I will also learn some.  Its a hard language.  I've already put effort into it.  She's fluent enough and he understands more English than I realized.  He's getting lessons there now.  Just started that last week.

We likely won't have kids, so thats not really an issue, just a question of me accepting I missed my window and life is different now.

We got through all the pre-marital counseling and he continues to be a resource for me and her as well.  He will likely perform the ceremony.  Our core values are compatible.  We just need to live under the same roof and see how it is in everyday life.  But there's enough love between us that its worth the risk.

 

Jibralta, I am not minimizing the culture shock.  I've taken many steps to prepare her and inform her.  I've also taken steps to introduce her to the Russian community here which we will be a part of.  I'm not a fool like these people on 90 day Fiance.  I think things out. We have support here from Russian people I know who will help both of us.

 

[Atlguy]

7 hours ago, Tinydance said:

I think the main problem here just in general is not even that she's from the Ukraine, so different culture and language. But it's the fact that you're considering marriage with someone that you'd spent only three weeks with in person. I know you've been video calling and all that for a year and a half but you've barely had a relationship in person. I don't think you can really know someone well on video calls because you don't actually see all of that person's life at all. You don't see how they are at work, with family and friends, even how she is with her son all the time. You don't see how she behaves in all kinds of life situations. Of course she's on her best behaviour on video and phone calls and when you briefly met her in person. She really wants to marry a man from the west and she's trying to make a good impression. Also you don't know if you connect well with her son long term. He is her number one thing in life so getting along with her son would be very important.

I understand what you're saying, you want her to come to the US and just see how the relationship goes in person. I think yes you can try that but don't marry her unless you're absolutely sure that it's going to work. You've already been divorced and "screwed over", as you put it. So would you really want that to happen again by marrying a woman you don't really know? 

To be honest I don't totally buy that you really can't meet anyone in Oklahoma or that you can't move to another state. I'm in Australia myself and never been to the US but from what I know of it, it's a massive country. You have 50 + states there, right? Are you really saying that nowhere in the 50 states you could meet a woman? That seems a bit far fetched. I'm not sure what kind of criteria you have but maybe you're too picky. Are you maybe too looks oriented? I mean, I obviously don't know you at all, I'm just asking. Russian and Ukrainian women are usually beautiful so are you pursuing this woman because she's really attractive?

This is laughable.  You must not be in the dating scene or out of it for a very long time.  50 states means nothing.  If you live more than 10 miles from a single woman, she isn't going to pursue a relationship.  California is a great example.  LA is so huge that singles think a 30 mile drive isn't worth the effort.  I don't have that mentality, but the women I met in Dallas for example, thought like this.  Sure, there's 330 million people in the U.S.  How many are single women within a certain radius who are a match for me? Not many.

I Pursued her because of common values, family oriented, and obviously there's attraction.  Is she the most beautiful woman I've ever been with? I will probably say yes as our relationship strengthens because its the whole package thats important.  It's subjective, but we have a ton of chemistry.  I'm not a fool and I know that alone is nowhere near enough.  We get along well when we're together and the issues we have had we've talked through.  We're learning how to resolve disagreements, which to me is so important.  We both still need to work on it, but the key is we are working on it.