Argument about contraception

[firelily]

"If I happened to be pregnant despite my plans - I think logically it is silly for a woman 30 years old to abort a baby because it's not a perfect life scenario that she dreamed of, just to find a husband at 35 and then make another baby - or not find anyone like that. It's stupid, it's not a big time difference. It would be different for a 18 year old. If I didn't have it in me to raise a baby in unexpected pregnancy now, I shouldn't be allowed to ever make a baby - that's just my rational opinion about it. Because it would be being picky. I see getting pregnant after 30 as life asking you: "this is your chance at having a baby: do you take it or not?". If I decided then motherhood is something I'm up for, I definitely wouldn't be waiting for a perfect partner instead that might come or not."

 

My issue is that your analysis has nothing to do with what is in the best interests of the child, just has to do with the mother, her age and the biological clock. It's not about perfection, not about the perfect partner, it's about what is best for a child - and that doesn't mean "perfection" - to me personally that means waiting for a stable two-parent family preferably married or with a similar legal commitment (no, doesn't have to be the "perfect partner") where both parent want that child and want to be parents 100%. To me that's the minimum, not perfection, before you mess around with risky contraception and risky partners (meaning a partner who doesn't want a child or has different ideas about abortion).

 

It's not about "your only chance to have a baby biologically" -it should be, I think, in my humblest of opinions, about what is best for the child first and foremost, at minimum, not "perfection". People have opportunities to be parents without being biological parents of course, adoption, fostering, so that is always an option (or surrogacy, egg freezing which wasn't a viable alternative for me when I looked into it at age 32, 21 years ago).

 

This is why I might come across as "fierce" because it concerns an innocent child resulting not from a true accident (we can quibble over that but yes, double contraception or someone who lies about their vasectomy or heaven forbid rape) or where the parents get divorced or one parent dies before the baby is born (which happened to a friend of mine because of a terrorist incident).

 

I'm just questioning the way you are thinking about this one topic, not you as a person. You seem like a genuinely good and thoughtful person and I think it's great that you know you are not sure you want to be a parent. If you happen to have a child you say you would "probably accommodate your life" and "be happy" - again yes your happiness matters of course! But especially when you're pregnant and have a newborn and baby very often it's not about your 'happiness" (or sleep ,or having coffee that is hot, or taking a shower) - and "accommodate" (I am picking your word because I can tell you choose your words carefully) - is the least of it - very often accommodation is the least of it and it looks a lot more like huge sacrifice (I could tell you stories, all worth it, no regrets, and never expected it to be just about "accomodations" to my lifestyle). Again your self-knowledge you expressed is very valuable and hopefully you'll find casual or serious partners who feel the same about family.

 

Ok Batya, if you think I'm not able to give a potential child a good future because of my way of writing on a internet forum then it must be so, I will abort a potential child then or sterilize myself just because I wouldn't deserve to give birth to a child, unlike every other woman on the planet who gradually finds out what it really means to be a mother and gradually develops readiness for it. You're obviously superior to me now that you are a mother and know all about it and I'm just some silly egoistic girl who will never be as awesome as you are because of my way of talking to strangers on some forum. Please protect my future potential child from the trash of a mother I will obviously turn out to be.

 

I'm very, very tired of you still telling me exactly the same things over and over after I've acknowledged 10 times that you make a good point. What exactly do you expect me to say now?

[bluecastle]

He may be "quirky" but he is also emotionally stunted and that makes him a high-risk proposition for getting hurt, since you seem to idealize him. This whole thing isn't about contraceptive method or abortions. It's about you falling and knowing he'll slip away.

 

This is what I'm seeing.

 

You came here curious to understand your "dynamic," as you put it, so I'll go for some uncensored observations of what I see:

 

What the recent snafu has revealed is that you are in a toxic relationship—or at least a relationship that has turned toxic since it's not a fire built from healthy kindling. You're just reaching for another word—casual—to water down the toxicity and make it something you can get high off a little longer. But this is not casual, at all, what you're describing. It is "casual," in quotes, an aspirational sort of casual, which is very interesting and titillating—until it's not.

 

And right now you're tipping toward "it's not."

 

You are both, by the sounds of it, kind of wired to take clean rooms and make them dirtier than they need to be, like someone who arrives at the dinner party and throws the bottle or red wine at the wall instead of uncorking it. This is what you both brought to the proverbial dinner party that is you plus him. Yes, it makes the night interesting, for a moment. That moment has passed. Because, alas: the white couch, the empty glasses. The thrill has given way to a buzzkill. Hard to maintain a buzz when the wine is splattered everywhere but inside the glasses.

 

Less poetically?

 

Your main bonding emotional bonding point is your mutual emotional unavailability. You fling emotional baggage on each other, building a confessional romantic dynamic that serves as a form of personal therapy, with each of you a screen onto which the other can project their own issues, ideas and hang-ups about relationships, about sex, whatever, in hopes that something flickering becomes something real and some knot from the past gets untangled. Which is of course the opposite of actual therapy. That's the thing people do so their flickering personal truths can come into sharper focus and their pasts can be let go of, in order to enjoy romance, casual or otherwise, rather than romance as a kind of psychological experiment with nudity.

 

Imagine I walk outside, slip, fall into some glass. Now I'm cut up, bleeding. Healthy thing to do is get myself to a hospital, get stitched up, so I can enjoy a nice night with my girlfriend, wife, or a Netflix-Heidegger romp with my casual acquaintance who just went on the pill so we don't have to deal with condoms. Unhealthy thing would be to show up and drip blood all over her. You guys are kind of doing the latter. It's more subtle than showing up with a gaping wound that needs stitched up, and it's the subtlety that allows for such a dynamic to form, and expand.

 

Case in point: your telling him about this thread. When I read that I wanted to scream "What?" except it makes sense. This is what you guys do: these little injections of toxicity that heat things up in a way that has started to create the wrong kind of fission.

 

Now he is "really curious," words you wrote, I think, with some soothing satisfaction. If "casual" is code for "toxic," then "really curious" is code for "really anxious." Which is the "neurotic charm" you seek in him because it reflects your own neurosis back at you in a way that, well, charms. Or soothes. And it "soothes" him too, in a twisted way, because he can continue to play out scenes from his last relationship—pregnancy scare, etc.—with you, pushing for different results. That is the watermelon seed stuff.

 

You can only have it every which way for so long. He is your "boyfriend," but it's a label carved from chats about encouraging him to fall in love with someone else? He is your "casual" Netflix buddy, but as you figure out what to watch you have a heady discussion about how to communicate as a "team"? You go on the pill to lessen the chances of pregnancy to about 1 percent, and then make that one percent the focus of your sexual connection? You tell us about how you're not a woman who thinks much about having kids, which I believe, yet you're in a relationship where pregnancy is a major focus of your intimate connection?

 

Take a moment to think about all that: it's a center built to crumble because it's hard to build anything on a pile of contradictions. I don't mean all that as a leveling verdict on you, on him. Is what it is, and I'm sure it has delivered a lot of pleasure and stirred some needed self-exploration for you both. But it sounds like whatever "worked" here—a kind of simulacrum romance where each of you could air some very real dirty laundry thanks to the safety of a connection that's not quite real—is no longer working. And I'd say that's because the fuel from the start has been of the toxic variety. He's working through some issues with his ex, and using you as tool. You're working through some issues of your own, with him as your tool.

 

There is a shelf life to that sort of thing, and I'd say it's very close to reaching the expiration date. Why? Because now you guys, instead of offering each other a respite from those issues or a warm, sexy laboratory in which to experiment with them, now have more issues between yourselves than anyone wants from any sort of relationship. You have all the emotional complexity of a "serious" relationship that has hit the skids, without the safety of a "real" relationship. On the flip side, you have none of the fun sweaty fun of a casual romance, as one of the main foundations of casual fun—consensual, no-pressure sex—has become a pressurized mess.

 

And mixed in with all that? Very real feelings—the thing we all want to experience and share—but no safe place to feel them since they were stirred inside a dynamic that prized danger over safety.

[Batya33]

Ok Batya, if you think I'm not able to give a potential child a good future because of my way of writing on a internet forum then it must be so, I will abort a potential child then or sterilize myself just because I wouldn't deserve to give birth to a child, unlike every other woman on the planet who gradually finds out what it really means to be a mother and gradually develops readiness for it. You're obviously superior to me now that you are a mother and know all about it and I'm just some silly egoistic girl who will never be as awesome as you are because of my way of talking to strangers on some forum. Please protect my future potential child from the trash of a mother I will obviously turn out to be.

 

I'm very, very tired of you still telling me exactly the same things over and over after I've acknowledged 10 times that you make a good point. What exactly do you expect me to say now?

 

No I am not superior in the least-read my post. Abortion is not the only option if that is not something you are comfortable with -there is also adoption and also Plan B (which some might consider abortion, I'm really not sure). The women I know who thought about the best interests of the child as a priority over the desire to be a mother in my opinion give their future children the best chance possible at the starting gate whether or not they are ready in every way to be mothers. Most parents are not entirely ready- or even partially ready (especially since of course a child can be born with special needs or the mom can develop a life threatening condition or PPD or PPA right after birth - the first of which happened to me) of course, that's obvious -and that is not at all related to the point I was making.

 

I wasn't referring to readiness for what it's really like to have a baby -there are so many unknowns!! -I was referring to giving a child the best chance possible at the starting gate and I wrote above what I think a child deserves at minimum from a woman who is deciding whether to get pregnant on purpose or deciding whether to risk not using the best possible contraception to prevent pregnancy. Your taking the pill at different times and not using a backup method at least is far too risky with this particular man especially. And as an aside when that happened to me - when I forgot a pill, etc. or varied the times by accident - I did feel it physically at times -it's just not great for your body. (I was on the pill on and off for about 13 years with only one bout for a few months of bad side effects).

 

Just because I am a parent to a child doesn't make me superior about parenting at all. Much of the great input and advice I have received over the years about parenting are from people who are not parents. Much of what prepared me for being a parent was my non-parent related 15 year career before I became a mom.

 

I think you would make a great mother for this reason -because you're being honest with yourself that it's not something you're sure about and because of this honesty, if you choose to get pregnant in the future or to adopt/foster/be a stepmother you will come to it from a perspective of honesty. Many women I am sure feel pressured to desire motherhood, might even feel so pressured to go with the flow and have a child, or another child despite feeling really conflicted and/or not wanting to change their lives to that dramatic extent parenthood often requires. It looks like you are confident in your thinking and if you agreed to have a child would give it so much thought and planning -good for you.

 

Thanks for acknowledging that I make a good point. You make some very good points about how important it is to be self-aware and honest with yourself and others about your ambivalence about parenthood. I do not agree with your opinion that women over 30 who become accidentally pregnant should have the child since it might be their only chance at motherhood. I do not agree that you should be having sex with a man who is not on the same wavelength as you about what would occur should you accidentally become pregnant

 

I think hurling accusations at me that I am implying you would be a trash mother or should be sterilized is simply trying to avoid addressing my actual points not some exaggerated, twisted version. I wrote and implied no such thing. And I don't believe that to be true either. I agree with the others that your casual sex arrangement seems to be far more work than is worth the benefit of having fun hanging out with him and having fun/good sex given your divergent views and how he reacted to your information about your birth control practices. I reiterated my opinion because you offered your new opinion on how a woman over 30 who has a chance at motherhood should go for it (that in a nutshell, I know there was more to your opinion). I would not have had you not reintroduced the issue and offered a new opinion.

[Batya33]

I looked at your initial post again and am confused as to why you would continue to have sex with someone when you say you want casual sex but also someone where you can be emotionally intimate -given what he said/how he treated you/how you felt - I don't see where you go from here or why it is worth it to you to put in any more time and effort since you already know he's not your long term or potentially long term person. And now I understand why you would exaggerate what I wrote (a stranger on the internet) because from what you described you reacted to his telling you again how he feels on various issues by crying because you had a tough day (we've all been there but yes if you don't choose to communicate calmly or to wait to communicate till you feel calm then the other person might not have the best reaction either, especially in a situation where the arrangement is casual) and expecting him to be mean when you cried (no, that's not a guy thing -that's this individual person in this individual situation).

 

So yes I'm sorry you were so hurt you cried but somehow you expected this person you're with casually to understand that you'd had a tough day, that this conversation would make you cry and make you unable to talk and because he already is not a trusting person in general -he told you that - I can see where he'd jump to the conclusion that maybe you were lying -it likely overwhelmed him. He certainly should have given you space/shown you sympathy, waited for you to get yourself together. I don't think crying triggers meanness in men -I do think sometimes crying in that kind of situation might make the other person wonder about what's really going on especially in a casual situation.

 

I do think there are people in casual arrangements who can live in the moment, go with the flow, enjoy sex and hanging out and hooking up day to day but the issue here is there is already too much toxicity and you do mention that there is potential for you to fall for him, you do mention you prefer emotional intimacy during sex so those things are not that consistent with taking things day by day o going with the flow. And the divergent views on contraception also make it highly unlikely to be able to have fun for now.

[figureitout23]

Thank you for expanding firefly, your explanation makes a lot of sense.

 

So backing off of all that and focusing solely on the joke and his reaction? Well I can’t say that I’d have a much different response, it’s not something to really joke about in ‘real time’ what I mean is you two may have had dark humor about obscure pregnancies that didn’t involve you but you, for reasons I’m still not really clear on, decided to take it up a notch and joke about an actual, although incredibly slim, possibility.

 

Not cool. No matter your intention, it comes off manipulative.

 

So, I think his anger was warranted.

 

But now the Rose colored glasses are off and as blue said, you see parts of him you chose not to before.

 

But let’s be real, he didn’t hide them from you, you just didn’t want to see them, much like the defining of your relationship, it’s grey, allowing you to decide for yourself what it is, that is until reality sets in again.

[firelily]

This is what I'm seeing.

 

You came here curious to understand your "dynamic," as you put it, so I'll go for some uncensored observations of what I see:

 

What the recent snafu has revealed is that you are in a toxic relationship—or at least a relationship that has turned toxic since it's not a fire built from healthy kindling. You're just reaching for another word—casual—to water down the toxicity and make it something you can get high off a little longer. But this is not casual, at all, what you're describing. It is "casual," in quotes, an aspirational sort of casual, which is very interesting and titillating—until it's not.

 

And right now you're tipping toward "it's not."

 

You are both, by the sounds of it, kind of wired to take clean rooms and make them dirtier than they need to be, like someone who arrives at the dinner party and throws the bottle or red wine at the wall instead of uncorking it. This is what you both brought to the proverbial dinner party that is you plus him. Yes, it makes the night interesting, for a moment. That moment has passed. Because, alas: the white couch, the empty glasses. The thrill has given way to a buzzkill. Hard to maintain a buzz when the wine is splattered everywhere but inside the glasses.

 

Less poetically?

 

Your main bonding emotional bonding point is your mutual emotional unavailability. You fling emotional baggage on each other, building a confessional romantic dynamic that serves as a form of personal therapy, with each of you a screen onto which the other can project their own issues, ideas and hang-ups about relationships, about sex, whatever, in hopes that something flickering becomes something real and some knot from the past gets untangled. Which is of course the opposite of actual therapy. That's the thing people do so their flickering personal truths can come into sharper focus and their pasts can be let go of, in order to enjoy romance, casual or otherwise, rather than romance as a kind of psychological experiment with nudity.

 

Imagine I walk outside, slip, fall into some glass. Now I'm cut up, bleeding. Healthy thing to do is get myself to a hospital, get stitched up, so I can enjoy a nice night with my girlfriend, wife, or a Netflix-Heidegger romp with my casual acquaintance who just went on the pill so we don't have to deal with condoms. Unhealthy thing would be to show up and drip blood all over her. You guys are kind of doing the latter. It's more subtle than showing up with a gaping wound that needs stitched up, and it's the subtlety that allows for such a dynamic to form, and expand.

 

Case in point: your telling him about this thread. When I read that I wanted to scream "What?" except it makes sense. This is what you guys do: these little injections of toxicity that heat things up in a way that has started to create the wrong kind of fission.

 

Now he is "really curious," words you wrote, I think, with some soothing satisfaction. If "casual" is code for "toxic," then "really curious" is code for "really anxious." Which is the "neurotic charm" you seek in him because it reflects your own neurosis back at you in a way that, well, charms. Or soothes. And it "soothes" him too, in a twisted way, because he can continue to play out scenes from his last relationship—pregnancy scare, etc.—with you, pushing for different results. That is the watermelon seed stuff.

 

You can only have it every which way for so long. He is your "boyfriend," but it's a label carved from chats about encouraging him to fall in love with someone else? He is your "casual" Netflix buddy, but as you figure out what to watch you have a heady discussion about how to communicate as a "team"? You go on the pill to lessen the chances of pregnancy to about 1 percent, and then make that one percent the focus of your sexual connection? You tell us about how you're not a woman who thinks much about having kids, which I believe, yet you're in a relationship where pregnancy is a major focus of your intimate connection?

 

Take a moment to think about all that: it's a center built to crumble because it's hard to build anything on a pile of contradictions. I don't mean all that as a leveling verdict on you, on him. Is what it is, and I'm sure it has delivered a lot of pleasure and stirred some needed self-exploration for you both. But it sounds like whatever "worked" here—a kind of simulacrum romance where each of you could air some very real dirty laundry thanks to the safety of a connection that's not quite real—is no longer working. And I'd say that's because the fuel from the start has been of the toxic variety. He's working through some issues with his ex, and using you as tool. You're working through some issues of your own, with him as your tool.

 

There is a shelf life to that sort of thing, and I'd say it's very close to reaching the expiration date. Why? Because now you guys, instead of offering each other a respite from those issues or a warm, sexy laboratory in which to experiment with them, now have more issues between yourselves than anyone wants from any sort of relationship. You have all the emotional complexity of a "serious" relationship that has hit the skids, without the safety of a "real" relationship. On the flip side, you have none of the fun sweaty fun of a casual romance, as one of the main foundations of casual fun—consensual, no-pressure sex—has become a pressurized mess.

 

And mixed in with all that? Very real feelings—the thing we all want to experience and share—but no safe place to feel them since they were stirred inside a dynamic that prized danger over safety.

 

Thank you, I can really see some shades of that in our relationship.

 

I'm attracted to what's "deep" in almost every social interaction in my life, not on the surface stuff, so you know, carefree sweaty fun with a guy who wouldn't share with me some serious health worries for example sounds like the opposite of what I would be interested in :) I like talking about worries, dreams, aspirations, reflections and people never touching these subjects are not good match for me, for friendships or anything.

 

It's been hard to balance these healthy but somewhat peculiar personality traits of mine with attracting positive vibes in my social life. I cherish my relationships with people for their depth, I couldn't do it any other way, and at the same time I want to squeeze out of it things like inspiration, adventure, passions, novelty and intellectual exploration, rather than only ranting about how sad life is. The latter is just the easiest way of being "deep" for many people, including myself.

 

Dating now another listener of doom metal, I see your point now with more clarity, that this thing of ours turned into a goth party of washing anxieties. It must be why it's been so tiring. As for my part, I know I have more things to offer to people than only drama, sadness and insecurities. I have to look closely at our daily dynamics and decide what elements of it bug me as the "goth party" and what can we focus on to have something positive. If he'd be interested in that. He'll probably know what I mean when I explain him the toxic parts of it, I'm not sure if he has even a model of a healthy relationship to compare to know what he's missing.

 

I don't really believe you need to be single to work on healing. This one relationship is probably doomed from the start as you say, but I have many healthy and depressed friends that are a great element of my life and I definitely need to do work "inside" of these relationships, to try to focus these relationships in better directions, than work on these issues in some artifical vacuum. I wouldn't even see them if I were in a vacuum. With him, or with some next "serious" guy - if I will notice too much heaviness and anxiety in the air, I believe it needs to be address inside the relationship.

 

So, I'll take a closer look at how I feel at different times and decide what my boundaries are, and encourage him to do the same. If I see that there is no positive potential between us, I'll have my answer. I think there must be potential, because I've chosen him for that temporary relationship from so many people out there in the Internet because of so many common interests, passions, values and mental curiosity, but there's a big chance at this time of our lives we don't have what it takes to explore that potential.

[Batya33]

I agree totally that depth doesn't have to mean anything to do with sadness or negative situations. I also think casual conversations can go deeper so just because the topic might be a tv show you both like watching or a place you've traveled or music, it's awesome when then it goes deeper. I don't think your personality traits are peculiar at all. Many people crave depth in their personal interactions -seems fairly typical to me.

[firelily]

Thank you for expanding firefly, your explanation makes a lot of sense.

 

So backing off of all that and focusing solely on the joke and his reaction? Well I can’t say that I’d have a much different response, it’s not something to really joke about in ‘real time’ what I mean is you two may have had dark humor about obscure pregnancies that didn’t involve you but you, for reasons I’m still not really clear on, decided to take it up a notch and joke about an actual, although incredibly slim, possibility.

 

Not cool. No matter your intention, it comes off manipulative.

 

So, I think his anger was warranted.

 

But now the Rose colored glasses are off and as blue said, you see parts of him you chose not to before.

 

But let’s be real, he didn’t hide them from you, you just didn’t want to see them, much like the defining of your relationship, it’s grey, allowing you to decide for yourself what it is, that is until reality sets in again.

 

Nah, I always see everything, it just always takes me sh*tload of time to process it. Sometimes it takes me months of intense processing to fully sort out thoughts on some dynamics, that's why I'm using the feedback from you guys to have these perspectives. Then at some point things just click in the place. In the meanwhile, it's always a good thing for me to hold a position where I feel comfortable. This week I felt like I'm not standing in the right place and I have to move to some other position. Maybe put some boundaries or something like that. I'll try to reflect on why I may have been manipulative, if so many people there hinted on that though I didn't think it was my intention at all. I definitely don't want babies from him, and I rather respect his explanation of his opinion, if anything bugged me it's how often the abortion jokes or that topic was mentioned by him. So maybe that could be one of these boundaries, that you know, if we still want to date, and I think we do - enough with him trying to repulse me from having sex with him or something, he decides if double contraception is enough for him or if he wants vasectomy and if that's enough to have sex with me without blaming me for the risk, if he doesn't we don't have sex - and I on my end can be more private about my own fears and more respectful of his phobia.

[bluecastle]

I like the way you think. Can relate.

 

One thing I've become pretty tuned into is how easy it is for us humans to mistake drama for depth—especially those of us who self-identify (hey, friend!) as being motivated by depth.

 

But, alas, what you are describing here is more shallow than not. Call it ersatz-depth, illusory depth. You like the idea that you are swimming around in the deep end right now, and for a stretch it really felt like that. But now something is off: the water is only ankle deep and you kind of feel like a kid wearing those inflatable water wings. Ugh. Happens. What felt like depth has revealed itself to be drama because you two have, it seems, reached the limits of your depths together.

 

Telling him about this thread, for instance? That is just drama, despite all the depth inside this thread. It has made the genuine depth inaccessible, because it was weaponized: targeted to excavate depth but at the expense of genuine depth. Ditto the abortion joke, ditto his watermelon seed handling of his procreation fears and past romantic trauma. That is swordplay, not connection.

 

Note about watermelon seeds: put them in a petri dish and examine them under a microscope, and they will each look unique, interesting. Still? They are watermelon seeds. That part does not change through examination. That is why the scientist eventually moves on to a different, more complex specimen. The scientist needed that watermelon seed for a moment—to learn some stuff—but the stuff learned must be applied to a new paradigm.

[Batya33]

He may not have a phobia at all -he simply might not want to father a child of yours or he generally might not want fatherhood or with someone he is not exclusive with. It's fine if it takes you months of intense processing and also fine if you choose to make a fast decision to step away from a negative situation, then take all the processing time you need, then return to the situation if once you're done processing you decide that there are ways to make it work. Certainly in this kind of extreme situation -extreme in more ways than one - perhaps you can give yourself the intense processing time but not be with him and not have sex with him (or some combo of that).

[itsallgrand]

I really think you are working against your own interests and goals. From all you described about yourself, you have the means to achieve all the things you want with time - so long as you do not get in your own way.

But you keep getting in your own way.

 

What did you think about the idea of focusing on therapy for now and then date after having given that some time to work that?

You may find you'll see situations like this differently.

 

You asked about what people think about the dynamic here, and personally, I think it's one that holds both of you back. You may not want to see it, he may not want to see it, and I get it...no one likes walking away from warmth, fun, good sex and companionship. Particularly when there hasn't been a lot of it in one's life for a good long while.

But yeah, that holding on can only take you so far.

 

And I think as far as contraception goes, it's super simple if you want to keep things that way. If someone does not agree with you on it, no sex. If you'd keep a child and he is terrified at that thought, he doesn't NEED to ' grow into' your beliefs, you just respect his and your own enough to go " ok then, not going to risk this, it's a no go".

And you certainly don't mention that he should think of a vasectomy just so you can keep having sex. You just stop. Imagine if he had suggested to you sterilization since you wouldn't abort.

 

And you mentioned there's more fun things to spend money on instead of therapy. Sure. But a baby would suck all that money and then some. You'd find a way for that, so find the way for what can actually move you ahead.

[firelily]

I like the way you think. Can relate.

 

One thing I've become pretty tuned into is how easy it is for us humans to mistake drama for depth—especially those of us who self-identify (hey, friend!) as being motivated by depth.

 

But, alas, what you are describing here is more shallow than not. Call it ersatz-depth, illusory depth. You like the idea that you are swimming around in the deep end right now, and for a stretch it really felt like that. But now something is off: the water is only ankle deep and you kind of feel like a kid wearing those inflatable water wings. Ugh. Happens. What felt like depth has revealed itself to be drama because you two have, it seems, reached the limits of your depths together.

 

Telling him about this thread, for instance? That is just drama, despite all the depth inside this thread. It has made the genuine depth inaccessible, because it was weaponized: targeted to excavate depth but at the expense of genuine depth. Ditto the abortion joke, ditto his watermelon seed handling of his procreation fears and past romantic trauma. That is swordplay, not connection.

 

Note about watermelon seeds: put them in a petri dish and examine them under a microscope, and they will each look unique, interesting. Still? They are watermelon seeds. That part does not change through examination. That is why the scientist eventually moves on to a different, more complex specimen. The scientist needed that watermelon seed for a moment—to learn some stuff—but the stuff learned must be applied to a new paradigm.

 

Nice one :)

 

As for telling him about the thread...

 

I told him the next day I feel bad about that day, but I don't know why, I need some space to think about that.

 

The next day I was feeling even more bad, I wasn't sure how much of that space I need. He asked how I am, how I'm spending my day, I told him I'm still processing . In the evening, I felt like talking to him again. When he asked again how I am, I told him I've been thinking about stuff all day and even asking on this forum, but it has been very heavy on me and now I feel even worse (after some series of more attacking comments in tone). He was really curious and flattered that so many people took time to evaluate him, and as he's a fan of self-analysis, he's really interested. I gave him some feedbacfrom this page that was kind enough, along with comments on what I did wrong, and used this to start a discussion that I had a hard time starting, the discussion I feel we need to have on a couple of days probably before we achieve more clarity what the problem is and what to do.

 

Yesterday, he was extremely understanding of my perspective, told me he knows not giving me enough emotional safety and is too cruel with his honesty, but he doesn't know how to do with that. He wishes me better than him, but thinks we should date for a bit longer, because he feels he can still give me a lot of good stuff before we will have to call it a day. And he told me before our relationship serves him too, makes him feel a lot better and calmer.

 

I don't think it's covered all points, but maybe we can draw a map of what's going on with our emotions and decide on some changes in our dynamics. I think mentioning this forum helped me to boost the discussion when I didn't even know where to start "the talk" I felt I need to have.

[firelily]

I really think you are working against your own interests and goals. From all you described about yourself, you have the means to achieve all the things you want with time - so long as you do not get in your own way.

But you keep getting in your own way.

 

What did you think about the idea of focusing on therapy for now and then date after having given that some time to work that?

You may find you'll see situations like this differently.

 

You asked about what people think about the dynamic here, and personally, I think it's one that holds both of you back. You may not want to see it, he may not want to see it, and I get it...no one likes walking away from warmth, fun, good sex and companionship. Particularly when there hasn't been a lot of it in one's life for a good long while.

But yeah, that holding on can only take you so far.

 

And I think as far as contraception goes, it's super simple if you want to keep things that way. If someone does not agree with you on it, no sex. If you'd keep a child and he is terrified at that thought, he doesn't NEED to ' grow into' your beliefs, you just respect his and your own enough to go " ok then, not going to risk this, it's a no go".

And you certainly don't mention that he should think of a vasectomy just so you can keep having sex. You just stop. Imagine if he had suggested to you sterilization since you wouldn't abort.

 

And you mentioned there's more fun things to spend money on instead of therapy. Sure. But a baby would suck all that money and then some. You'd find a way for that, so find the way for what can actually move you ahead.

 

I definitely don't see therapy as sole means of moving ahead. I know people's views differ on this. I know I could use it for areas where I've been stuck on my own, but in other areas I'm good with making progress focusing on actual life progress (like job, studies, etc.) than by talking therapy. For example, I always have problems with being successful professionally, and I'm incredibly happy I chose to focus my limited time, energy and effort on actually pursuing these professional goals despite my psychological problems in this area, than on talking therapy that would leave me in debt and may not contribute much to this goal. I believe in therapy as one of the tools to development, a good tool, but not as an obligatory requirement to be a well-functioning adult.

 

I know there are areas where I would benefit from therapy in my romantic life and I think the best time for addressing these issues would be if I dated someone seriously and experienced these problems, then I could work on them as they come. I had good relationships with my family and good childhood and I don't believe my past needs to be addressed in any way before I date - I need to analyze my problems in the present, that's the kind of therapy I could benefit from.

 

I plan therapy at some point of my life. The romantic dynamics problems will come to be the topic of my therapy only when I have some practical field to work on them, and now I'm apparently not that committed to make this relationship survive no matter what, so I'm not motivated to do the therapeutic effort on that when I have so many more urgent life goals right now.

 

Of course, if some unexpected life event happened like pregnancy I would have to prioritize and order my goals differently. But it didn't sound nice to pressure me to therapy right now because of the baby argument. I probably know better what areas of life and development I want to focus on right now and how, I think I can make myself the best decisions here.

[Batya33]

Is he "too cruel with his honesty" or does he simply lack a filter? Is what he is referring to as "honesty" when he gives an honest response to a question you pose or is it more that he shares his opinion, input, when you don't ask for it, in a cruel or harsh way in the name of "but i was just being honest!" And of course if someone asks a question and the honest answer would be unnecessarily hurtful the caring person can say, honestly "I don't feel comfortable responding to that" or similar.

 

From what you describe it sounds like the two of you are into speaking in therapy/psychological type terms -sometimes the concern is that the big words/abstractions are being used to avoid being direct and straight with each other in a simpler yet clearer way.

[bluecastle]

Kind of breaks my heart a bit, I admit, to read your views on therapy.

 

Here's the thing: you are in a serious relationship, of a sort. Label it however you want, but your emotional bandwidth is 100 percent occupied by this man, and fried. You're talking about "drawing a map" so you two can change the dynamic? You don't get more serious than that. I mean, that is what people do who are in serious relationships—generally relationships that are failing in a zillion directions but, dang it, there are years of history, there is love, there are children, a mortgage, etc.

 

What do you get from drawing that map with someone you are also saying you don't see yourself with? Oh, you get a dose of therapy! Just a sticky version: a mental exercise designed to improve yourself. But when that mental exercise is conducted in the laboratory of another's psychology, the improvement is limited, corrosive, illusory. It's jogging on a treadmill and telling yourself you're running across a continent.

 

All therapy is, essentially, is drawing that emotional map for yourself, so you can navigate life and love with panache, without the fried circuitry, and without (key point here) equating fried circuitry with something tasty.

 

It ain't fried food, after all, but very real feelings and very real lives, being fried to the point where they are too crispy to even understand and those little battered bits are mistaken for meat. Think about that for a moment. Is that growth? Is that depth? Or is it the opposite?

[Batya33]

But in a really important way this relationship is not serious -there's lots of "serious" talk about feelings, lots of big concepts and big feelings thrown around but he told her that there is a limited shelf life here since he's too cruel with his honesty and he can work on that for now but not long term, told her he doesn't want to ever be a parent with her (which doesn't mean "not serious" just cumulative of the general sense) -so what is "serious" without future potential let alone no commitment? So it's not a "serious relationship" -it's an arrangement where she has intense feelings, they have intense talks, they have significant incompatibilities and drama. I think the label does matter because if "serious" meant committed I might see the point in couples therapy down the road.

[bluecastle]

But in a really important way this relationship is not serious -there's lots of "serious" talk about feelings, lots of big concepts and big feelings thrown around but he told her that there is a limited shelf life here since he's too cruel with his honesty and he can work on that for now but not long term, told her he doesn't want to ever be a parent with her (which doesn't mean "not serious" just cumulative of the general sense) -so what is "serious" without future potential let alone no commitment? So it's not a "serious relationship" -it's an arrangement where she has intense feelings, they have intense talks, they have significant incompatibilities and drama. I think the label does matter because if "serious" meant committed I might see the point in couples therapy down the road.

 

Right. It's a simulacrum of serious. The very thing that allows for it is that there is no actual "there" there. What actual therapy is great for is figuring out the "there" you want, so you can just do it rather than talk about it.

 

What is serious is the amount of mental and emotional horsepower being expended by two real human beings whose time on earth is limited. That's sort of the point I was trying to make.

[itsallgrand]

For me, when thinking about pregnancy and a serious relationship, I really wanted to prepare myself as best I could rather than wing it as I went. I don't see these as unexpected life events, but rather choices we make all along the way. And actually, I probably wouldn't be in the relationship I am in now without having worked on what I did in therapy. I had set my heart on being fine with not being a mom if I could not get myself to a place where I could give all I knew I had the potential to give. I had issues, so made a choice to address them. I'm proud of it, so it's not about being ' not nice'- I sincerely was sharing what I know from experience can basically put a person on a much faster track in all areas they may be blocked in their life. Whichever direction you chose to take , it gives more options and control.

 

You seem to be taking an opposite approach. I'll wait until the serious relationship or pregnancy to address what's going on with me about that and any issues there.

[Batya33]

Right. It's a simulacrum of serious. The very thing that allows for it is that there is no actual "there" there. What actual therapy is great for is figuring out the "there" you want, so you can just do it rather than talk about it.

 

What is serious is the amount of mental and emotional horsepower being expended by two real human beings whose time on earth is limited. That's sort of the point I was trying to make.

 

But he knows what he wants -he told her very recently he'd like to keep dating her for a bit more time since he's too cruel when he's honest and won't work on it to the extent they'd be right together long term, and she's written several times now that despite having intensity about him she also does not see long term potential. There's nothing to do as far as where this is going -it's going until the benefits are outweighed by the bad stuff and while it's going they each can look to date or date others since it's casual.

 

Some people love to have these kinds of talks that are "deep" but with the comfort of knowing there's no risk of having to commit - you can say anything because if "it" is over there never was a commitment to "it" to begin with. I remember having these sorts of talks with men who didn't want a commitment with me - it was easy to feel attached and invested and also so very safe. The only unsafe thing in her situation is that she could get pregnant and then she loses him and is a single parent.

 

I think therapy in this sort of casual self-limiting with time arrangement is a waste of time, money and likely would prompt more verbiage and less action (meaning the action of ending it so they can both find more compatible arrangements)

[bluecastle]

I agree, Batya.

 

What I'm saying, probably poorly, is that I think therapy is better than using a casual self-limited thing as therapy. Mapping things out with someone you're not really committed to being with, and who is open about not being committed to you? That's like a vegetarian mastering the art of cooking steak. Interesting exercise, but the end result is starvation and frustration. The only way you can eat is to compromise your values.

[Batya33]

I agree, Batya.

 

What I'm saying, probably poorly, is that I think therapy is better than using a casual self-limited thing as therapy. Mapping things out with someone you're not really committed to being with, and who is open about not being committed to you? That's like a vegetarian mastering the art of cooking steak. Interesting exercise, but the end result is starvation and frustration. The only way you can eat is to compromise your values.

 

LOL! Love the image. Oh I guess I could agree with that -I thought you meant couples therapy. Individual therapy - I feel "why not/can't hurt" if asked my opinion based on what the OP wrote. I didn't really get that she was using this casual thing as "therapy" just that it feeds her needs for what she sees as deep conversations, she likes the sex and wrote that she needs to have opportunities for casual sex, and she likes him.

[itsallgrand]

Yes, I meant therapy for oneself . Not therapy for the relationship.

Instead of banging one's head against the wall trying to force this series of choices, therapy to broaden ones readily available and visible choices.

We all have blind spots. So if you find yourself groping in the dark repeatedly, why keep going til you hit something rather than going to turn on more lights.

[firelily]

Guys :) I meant "serious" as in: not this one :) I meant if I met now someone I fell heels in love with and decide he's my future no matter what, then some mess started to surface - I would think it's a great timing for relationship-centered therapy.

 

Therapy is very expensive, and I found it less effective than emotionally consuming. I still want it for specific goals. My views on therapy agree with the article I once found, https://www.solutionstoallyourproblems.com/why-talk-therapy-didnt-cure-my-depression-and-what-finally-did/ - if you guys want to you can read the section "wanna up your success in therapy". Basically, I don't feel broken, dysfunctional, not able to live a life without therapy - I'm ok, but I would benefit from therapy in some areas if I used it shortly and effectively for specifically set goals.

 

Bluecastle, why does it break your heart to hear my views on therapy? Do you feel like my views at therapy somehow make your views or success less valid? My best friend who spend around 10 years in therapies with successes got angry at me every time I told her I'm not going to try therapy now because of my scepticism that it will work for me (I believe talking therapy works better for some people and worse for others).

 

I probably came off as ignoring benefits of therapy, but there's more to that. It's been an amazing year for me. I've been struggling with depression for years, spending months without job, then trying some job and suffering there even more for 3 months before leaving. A year ago, I was depressed and almost convinced I'm broken, dysfunctional, not able to ever hold a full time job, not able to adopt and support financially a dog, let alone a child, undateable, a bad daughter and a burden to everybody. I was lying at house unmotivated on most days, tired with everything I managed to do. I've trying therapies some times ago but with little effect (next time I will try CBT rather than psychodynamic therapy). For a year I was visiting different psychiatrists and trying different meds to make me go out of this black hole. But the meds only messed up my sleep cycle so much I wasn't even able to focus on a job search.

 

It was actually the moment I said "f* this sh*" after another psychiatrist showed lack of concern for my improvement, that I found a strength in me to find a new job. And this time, it didn't suck. I was great at it, though it is such a challenge for me to work with kids - but to my surprise, I can totally handle it, while I couldn't handle simplest tasks before. I've been employed for 8 months now (the longest I've been since 2014). I wake up in the morning and I don't feel sick. I come home and I don't feel like disappearing. It's just so amazing. I have a lot of qualifying to do and it's a struggle, but for the first time I'm doing what I want to be doing and I'm a good fit. I was never broken and no amount of telling the therapist how pathetic I feel being jobless would help me to be there - in this area of my life, it was a matter of better life luck and using all my personal strengths in the right timing.

 

Now I can imagine some future. I can plan adopting a dog. I can see a possibility of ever having family and not completely failing at that. For months now I feel something I haven't felt in years - belonging to this life. I was right all this time that people are not supposed to feel like I've been filling for years, that life is just so easy to live in normal circumstances, it just wasn't easy for me. I can afford to spend money at Starbucks from time to time, to take my mom out to the cinema. Some days I cry from joy, like last week when I was buying that new dress for work and I realized I no longer look at mirrors in shopping mall feeling like I'm too ugly to deserve any new clothes, I feel like I'm a normal person and I can buy myself things I look good at.

 

It's been an amazing year for me. It's a first year I live separately from my parents, I buy my own toilet paper, I learn financial independence, and I love every bit of it, I waited for it so much for so long. Just after getting employed I met my boyfriend and we started talking every day. He always pushed me to value myself more professionally, and I think it was a huge helping force not to slip into some self-sabotage/fear-of-success this time, along with someone to share daily struggles and successes with - something I don't usually shower my friends or family with. I would probably still be where I am without him, but he's been no doubt helpful.

 

What I want to say, it's a very intense year for me and my main focus now is on other fields than self-development and therapy. Yes, I want to use money for now for a course that will make me understand my job responsibilities better than on therapy that is not my main focus at this moment.

 

As for my current relationship, I am not committed to making it work no matter what, as we don't even love each other, but it has served us for some months for what it is and I want to make sure I won't be making damaging mistakes to myself, but using the positives of it more, or be more cautious when to walk away when things will become bad for me. I am not committed now to take therapy, which is an enormous emotional investment that would take energy from other areas of my life, to work on my drama tendencies in relationships for example just to be allowed to date people.

 

If I will find an afternoon weekly to commute to the city and back, it will be for yoga classes or swimming instead of therapy, because I feel I seriously need an out for all the (positive) stress gathered in my body from working with autistic children and all the fast life development that was happening this year.

 

I hope this explains my views a bit better :)

 

And I overthink this relationship because I overthink every possible stuff

[Batya33]

I'm an overthinker too.

 

I wanted to throw this out there in case you haven't tried it, even if it's obvious. Daily cardio helps me get out of my head, releases any negative energy/stress. stop overthinking, feel like a million bucks/superwoman and just such replenishing "quality" me- time -I do only 31-35 minutes a day but every single day, often before 7:30am (today was 5:45) and I finish at least 3 glasses of water during. I go as fast as possible on a treadmill or outside - I've improved my speed over the 37 years of regular exercise but I'm at the limit now (I'm 53 also so that factors in) - and even when I lack some motivation it's the best. Like "therapy" but without the downsides you mentioned. Not always but enough that I love it. I don't belong to a gym, I have a few exercise outfits, great sneakers and a good water bottle. And that's it, I keep it simple. I have to keep it to about 30 minutes because of my schedule/lifestyle so I do this as intensely as possible. I so highly recommend it for a fellow overthinker.

[bluecastle]

Nah, the little shudder in my heart has nothing to do with my personal views on therapy. They're pretty conflicted, those views. Bet we could have some good chats over a glass of wine about all that.

 

I suppose the twinge comes from the sense that you strike me as someone very interested in human psychology, particularly your own, while engaging in a romantic dynamic that validates personal pathologies that don't serve you. Almost like someone who is in therapy, and into therapy, but who is seeing a very questionable therapist, with him/the relationship being that questionable therapist.

 

I mean, to brass tacks this whole thing: there is a staggering amount of drama between you guys—high school stuff, really, given graduate school gloss because you've both got the brainpower and the thirsty hearts that beat inside all human chests. It's like taking a juvenile relationship (the deep chats in dorm rooms that culminate in climax) and putting it through a thesaurus so it looks to have more layers than it does—so you each can look in the mirror and see people who have traveled far, far from the recess sandbox where boys punch girls in the arm to show interest. Except your arm is bruised, because he is punching it.

 

I get the sense, in ways, that you each see the other as a kind of romantic "finishing school." You cuddle as the Motley Crew documentary plays on Netflix, talking about falling in "real" love with others in a future that might be tomorrow or whenever—once this exhausting form of love-lust has run its course. But it's a school that is teaching questionable romantic habits, a "placeholder" that has you both held in a place you don't want to be, and as such maybe getting each of you further away from what you want—and your personal truths—rather than closer.