Another first date - how not to screw up (again)

[bbogdanov]

You wouldn't make her become cold. She might feel overwhelmed by your neediness if it is a regular kind of thing. I don't think you should be concerned about once and certainly asking for reassurance about other areas of your life is fine, just not constant "do you love me" kind of stuff.

 

As I said I don't want it to become a regular kind of thing, I hope I can manage to be not so needy/insecure. And I don't know why my thinking is so black and white. Like I am not allowed making any mistakes (especially in the beginning of a relationship). In other words - it doesn't matter if I've been needy/insecure just once or many times, I am doomed in either case. It seems logical that any person can make a mistake but I feel I am allowed exactly zero The first mistake of a kind I make - I feel I may have screwed things up and the other person will not "forgive" me.

[reinventmyself]

As I said I don't want it to become a regular kind of thing, I hope I can manage to be not so needy/insecure. And I don't know why my thinking is so black and white. Like I am not allowed making any mistakes (especially in the beginning of a relationship). In other words - it doesn't matter if I've been needy/insecure just once or many times, I am doomed in either case. It seems logical that any person can make a mistake but I feel I am allowed exactly zero The first mistake of a kind I make - I feel I may have screwed things up and the other person will not "forgive" me.

 

Great topic for therapy.

[bbogdanov]

Okay JMO but this is not a healthy dynamic. How do you feel about that "nickname" she has given you?

 

Re your dynamic, is she the more dominant one in the RL, and you the more passive?

 

If so, I suppose that nickname makes more sense, but in general it sounds a bit degrading and disrespectful of you as a man.

But if you're not bothered by it, then heck who am I to judge.

 

Enjoy bbog, and as others have said, whenever you begin to feel anxious, post/vent HERE!

 

How do I feel? The first couple of times it was like a joke, it sounded sweet somehow. And I may have not explained it correctly to you, it is not like a nickname that she uses regularly when talking to me. Just an occasional teasing between us when the topic goes in that direction (as she admits some insecurities of herself). For now I don't feel insulted but I guess if it continues I may become tired of it. About the dynamic - honestly, I can't gauge that. Usually I don't want the woman to be the dominant in my relationships. I think 50/50 may represent our dynamic at the moment but it may be just my wish and far from reality I am not bothered now but it would be degrading and disrespectful in the future if it continues and I get fed up. She really says it sweet and I don't see some bad intention behind it so I guess I am OK for the moment.

[katrina1980]

I can relate and as long as you don’t make this a habit it should be fine. Even if she’s nice about it doesn’t mean it’s also not a turn off or cause for concern. Again once is fine. Hope things continue to go well.

 

I agree with Batya, I've had men express insecurity and vulnerability and it's endeared me to them.

 

That said, it's all about how you convey your anxieties and insecurities to her, or any woman. In your case, you lashed out and got angry at her when she didn't respond to your messages in a timeframe that was suitable to you.

 

This would NOT have endeared me to you, it would have annoyed me. Perhaps even turned me off, as these early stages are quite precarious, feelings can and often do change on a dime.

 

And I am drawn to/attracted to men who have learned to manage their anxieties and insecurities in a healthy way, NOT get angry and lash out at me, no thank you, and I've experienced that too and stopped wanting to date them.

 

To clarify, my turning off would not be because you felt anxious or insecure but rather how you chose to deal with your anxiety and insecurities, by becoming angry and lashing out at me.

 

Not gonna fly with me and jmo but if you continue to deal with your anxieties in this way, in time she may come to resent you or worse turn off to you, see you as either weak or controlling, or both..

[bbogdanov]

OK I didn't see that. That is infantilizing and offensive. It's worse than women who insist on calling their husbands one of their "boys" because they also have a male child . Ick. I would keep an eye on how she regards you -is it with admiration and respect and desire?

 

I think she is admiring me and desires me. When we are together I feel man enough and she behaves like a woman. I mean (if you are asking that) - we are in our "normal" roles, I don't see them reversed or something like that. Well, she is 3 years older than me so it may be something to think about... She is more experienced after all.

[bbogdanov]

Great topic for therapy.

 

I've got many topics for therapy, I will be overwhelmed with so much to learn. But that is one of the things I acknowledge.

[bbogdanov]

I agree with Batya, I've had men express insecurity and vulnerability and it's endeared me to them.

 

That said, it's all about how you convey your anxieties and insecurities to her, or any woman. In your case, you lashed out and got angry at her when she didn't respond to your messages in a timeframe that was suitable to you.

 

This would NOT have endeared me to you, it would have annoyed me. Perhaps even turned me off, as these early stages are quite precarious, feelings can and often do change on a dime.

 

And I am drawn to/attracted to men who have learned to manage their anxieties and insecurities in a healthy way, NOT get angry and lash out at me, no thank you, and I've experienced that too and stopped wanting to date them.

 

To clarify, my turning off would not be because you felt anxious or insecure but rather how you chose to deal with your anxiety and insecurities, by becoming angry and lashing out at me!

 

Not gonna fly with me and jmo but if you continue to deal with your anxieties in this way, in time she may come to resent you or worse turn off to you.

 

I may have presented things incorrectly to a certain degree. I didn't lash out and I was not angry (I don't know why I wrote that). I was worried, panicked, wanted answers and so on. When I called her I asked (with a calm voice) what had happened and if there was some problem. I had expressed my insecurities before that "incident" so she knew about that.

[reinventmyself]

I may have presented things incorrectly to a certain degree. I didn't lash out and I was not angry (I don't know why I wrote that). I was worried, panicked, wanted answers and so on. When I called her I asked (with a calm voice) what had happened and if there was some problem. I had expressed my insecurities before that "incident" so she knew about that.

 

~~Well, not so great Last evening I sent her three consecutive messages and although Viber kept saying that she'd been active couple of minutes ago, my messages were still not read. Eventually she saw them but I was left on read. I got angry and called her - it turned out she'd "fallen asleep" (at 10 pm?)... I know nobody owes me anything but I get mad when somebody is lying to me. How are you sleeping and active on the app at the same time?? And even more - she was seen online many times after that (including at 2 am??)... It just doesn't make sense to me, I don't see the logic behind it. So I guess I've screwed things up but it is suspicious to me, I feel something's not right...~~

 

don't you hate it that when you put in something in writing and it comes back and bites you in the butt? :)

[katrina1980]

I may have presented things incorrectly to a certain degree. I didn't lash out and I was not angry (I don't know why I wrote that).

 

I was worried, panicked, wanted answers and so on.

 

Same thing bbog. Your panicking and wanting (demanding) answers = weak/controlling = turn off!

 

Bless her heart she must be really into you!

 

My advice, try and calm down (go running or do yoga!) and take steps to manage your emotions/anxieties in a healthy way.

 

I am not kidding bb, if you continue to get panicky and demand to know why she hasn't responded to your message(s), or behaves in other ways that trigger your anxieties and you get panicky and question her, you're gonna blow this!!

[bbogdanov]

~~Well, not so great Last evening I sent her three consecutive messages and although Viber kept saying that she'd been active couple of minutes ago, my messages were still not read. Eventually she saw them but I was left on read. I got angry and called her - it turned out she'd "fallen asleep" (at 10 pm?)... I know nobody owes me anything but I get mad when somebody is lying to me. How are you sleeping and active on the app at the same time?? And even more - she was seen online many times after that (including at 2 am??)... It just doesn't make sense to me, I don't see the logic behind it. So I guess I've screwed things up but it is suspicious to me, I feel something's not right...~~

 

don't you hate it that when you put in something in writing and it comes back and bites you in the butt? :)

 

Not at all, that's why I said that I may have presented things incorrectly (you think I can't go back in the topic and see what I have written so I can make a more credible "lie" if I wanted to lie?). There may have been angriness but I approached the situation from a place of insecurity. I called her and asked what had happened and if there was some problem because she hadn't answered me. This was full of neediness/insecurity but didn't sound insulting, offensive or attacking at all. My position was more of a passive one, not attacking.

[bbogdanov]

Same thing bbog. Your panicking and wanting (demanding) answers = weak/controlling = turn off!

 

Bless her heart she must be really into you!

 

My advice, try and calm down (go running or do yoga!) and take steps to manage your emotions/anxieties in a healthy way.

 

I am not kidding bb, if you continue to get panicky and demand to know why she hasn't responded to your message(s), or behaves in other ways that trigger your anxieties and you get panicky and question her, you're gonna blow this!!

 

Yes, it is weak and needy but it is not attacking her like other people do in such situations. I mean - like jealousy type of behaviour.

[katrina1980]

Yes, it is weak and needy but it is not attacking her like other people do in such situations. I mean - like jealousy type of behaviour.

 

I am not sure what you mean by the bolded or why that even matters -- but questioning why a woman has not responded to a text message, asking her "what happened, why haven't you responded to my message"? -- I dunno I am imagining when a man has done that to me, and yes it's insecurity in the worst way and sorry but also cringeworthy.

 

Next time, control that urge to question her like that, learn to deal with your anxieties yourself.

 

When you begin feeling anxious, ask yourself, what will my questioning her accomplish? Will it pull her closer to me? Will it endear her to me? Will it cause her to see me as a strong man capable of managing his emotions?

 

If, after asking and answering these questions within yourself, you might feel differently about acting on impulse like that.

 

I sure hope so!

[East4]

We are even joking about my flaws and she is calling me "my insecure boy"

 

 

well, she called a spade a spade, can't blame her. OP did act as an insecure boy who threw a temper tantrum, when "mommy" did not assuage his insecurity quickly enough. If OP wants to be referred to as a man, he's got to act like one.

 

I personally dislike the entitled attitude of expecting to be anybody's SO, despite OP's self awareness of serious self-esteem issues. Because men with low self-esteem and insecurity about their self worth, turn a woman's life into a living hell by sucking off every ounce of joy out of her life. If this girl stays with OP and she opts for a relationship, I guess his next move would be to isolate her from friends (God forbid male friends!) and family, because he would feel entitled of all of her time and attention;and jealousy of seeing that she has other interest outside of him, will eat him alive.

 

But the worse is that insecure men get to put women down , because this is the only way for them to feel good enough: since they carry inside this fear that they are not good enough and she may see through it, they make everything to bring a woman down, so that she would not even think of leaving him.

 

Did anybody notice the ME, ME train of thought of OP? Since he is so busy feeding his never ending hunger for reassurance with external signs of validation, until now he has not given any sign of caring at least a little bit about how his behavior makes HER feel. OP, does it cross your mind that you made that woman feel uncomfortable with your expectations of instant replies to your messages, and "is everything ok" questions? You only care what she thinks in relation to you, aka whether she will dump your a$$. Please, do everybody a favor and resume your therapy. The money that you spend on dates that anyway progress to nothing, are much better spent on figuring out your self-esteem issues.

 

http://takethelemons.com/9-things-to-know-if-you-love-a-guy-with-low-self-esteem/

[bbogdanov]

I am not sure I can explain it fully. I just feel in a more passive and insecure position when asking her these questions. Not like when some men demand answers and behave like they possess the woman, attacking aggressively or something like that. Of course I know the answers to all the questions you mentioned. But I am in a panicked state and all that I want is soothing via knowing the "truth". We already agreed with you (I guess) and other posters on the topic that this is one of (the many) my problems.

[bbogdanov]

... I guess his next move would be to isolate her from friends (God forbid male friends!) and family, because he would feel entitled of all of her time and attention;and jealousy of seeing that she has other interest outside of him, will eat him alive ...

 

That alone is enough to make me discard your opinion. What you "guessed" has never happened in my life and it won't happen ever. I don't know if you speak out of experience, but next time try not to predict things like that. It really insults me because I just can't imagine doing such thing.

[katrina1980]

bbog, sometimes such things are done in a very covert way, so as to not make it appear like a man is isolating her.

 

For example, questioning where she is, with whom, when will she be back, etc. to the point she doesn't even want to go out anymore as she doesn't want to deal with such an interrogation about her comings and goings every time she goes out/ leaves his presence. The hassle it presents just isn't worth it after awhile, she'd rather not and just keep the peace.

 

And when you think about it, is what I just described such a far leap from questioning why she didn't respond to a text message?

 

Since you're prone to act on impulse whenever you feel anxious and insecure, what will you do when she is out with friends (male friends) and you begin to feel anxious and insecure then?

 

Will you be able to control it?

[reinventmyself]

You are very much like my previous bf. The only difference is that you are self aware and you are taking responsibility.

 

My ex sort of knew he had a problem but to him, everything would be better if I was more accountable, if I answered my phone faster, if I had different friends. He made me responsible for managing his insecurities.

 

He viewed it as a disability of sorts and if I cared enough I'd be compassionate.

 

At first I was. I didnt do all that was asked of me, but I was forever cautious, second guessing everything I did just so I wouldnt trigger his insecurities.

 

Any time I felt successful at it, he raised the bar.

 

He was upset over something (that didnt happen) and he was so far gone there was no consoling him.

 

We broke up. 3 months later we reconciled. We both promised to do better. His insecurities were not gone, he just got better at hiding them. . So he thought.

 

Though he didnt act out like before, I still walked on egg shells so as to not risk setting him off. It was worse. I could feel the pressure cooker of everything he struggled to hold back and hide. At the same time we weren't addressing the elephant in the room. It felt excruciating until the pressure blew.

 

The lesson here is it's not so much about managing them. That's only part of the work. It's about unfolding and addressing why you have them to begin with.

 

Your insecurities are a symptom of something. Don't just try to manage the symptom. Address the cause.

 

Acting 'as if' is most often not enough

[katrina1980]

 

The lesson here is it's not so much about managing them. That's only part of the work.

 

It's about unfolding and addressing them to begin with.

 

Your insecurities are a symptom of something. Don't manage the symptom. Address the cause.

 

^^Best advice ever!!

[90_hour_sleep]

Take this with a grain of salt...

 

But maybe all you need is a gentle shift in how you're thinking about your experience. Giving most of the attention to the ''what-ifs'' and the fact that your experiences so far haven't lead to a more lasting relationship is sabotaging your growth. 20 women in a year?! That's pretty awesome. That's called putting yourself out there. Don't shrug off that fact that you're putting in a real effort. And now, with this latest woman things have been progressing well. Again, not something that should be dismissed so quickly. Sure, you don't know where it's going! Nothing wrong with that. In fact, get used to the idea of not knowing...because that's pretty much what life is all about. We spend most of our time not knowing what's around the next corner. That's something you can choose to view through two different lenses. Either it causes anxiety because you're focussed on controlling the uncontrollable, or it causes excitement because you're focussed on embracing the joy of the unknown.

 

I don't believe there are any hard-and-fast rules for dating. Your experience is your experience. You need to learn what you need to learn to continue your own growth as a person.

 

Not simple...but at the same time...so simple. Changing habits of thought. Not taking the thoughts that do come so seriously (they're just thoughts). Self awareness. Self-acceptance. These are things you can cultivate on a daily basis...for yourself. Not so that you're a more approachable or more likeable person...rather so you become more comfortable in your own skin...free to be as you are in the world without expecting anything in return from anyone.

 

Don't forget to celebrate the little victories along the path.

[boltnrun]

If I recall correctly, you did resent your previous girlfriend because she had started her "dream business" and you felt she should have been devoting that time to you instead. I may or may not have you confused with someone who also wanted his girlfriend to dress and groom herself in a certain way, with pleasing you in mind.

 

Please do correct me if that was indeed another poster and not you.

 

But if it was you, then you do have a history of wanting a woman to devote most if not all of her free time to you. You WERE jealous of her new business. And if so, then you still do have some work to do because you may be exhibiting the beginning signs of repeating the same pattern.

 

Again, please correct me if I have you confused with someone else.

[maew]

can't afford to wait until I solve all my problems before dating, otherwise I won't be dating anymore at all

 

As someone that suffers from social anxiety I can tell you that the above statement will get you nowhere fast in getting over your anxiety. If you aren’t comfortable with being alone, that is going to stretch into every interaction you have in the form of desperation, envy, jealousy, and controlling behaviours that will push any high value confident women away... not to mention you are using them like a drug to try and calm yourself down.

 

You MUST know after all of your counseling that seeking outside things to fulfill yourself will never work... all it does is create mor anxiety and negativity until you spiral completely out of control... you need to ground yourself in some interns values and principles that are important to you and focus on getting over your fear of being alone.

[bbogdanov]

bbog, sometimes such things are done in a very covert way, so as to not make it appear like a man is isolating her.

 

For example, questioning where she is, with whom, when will she be back, etc. to the point she doesn't even want to go out anymore as she doesn't want to deal with such an interrogation about her comings and goings every time she goes out/ leaves his presence. The hassle it presents just isn't worth it after awhile, she'd rather not and just keep the peace.

 

And when you think about it, is what I just described such a far leap from questioning why she didn't respond to a text message?

 

Since you're prone to act on impulse whenever you feel anxious and insecure, what will you do when she is out with friends (male friends) and you begin to feel anxious and insecure then?

 

Will you be able to control it?

 

I now understand that thing about the covert way. I really don't want to isolate anybody, I've never behaved like that and I don't intend to. I don't want to know really where she is, with whom, when will she be back and so on. I am just seeking reassurance that everything is fine and she has not rejected me (rejection is the thing that bothers me most I guess at the moment). I am not jealous as to ask her what she's doing in her free time and who she meets. I just want soothing, it is like a selfish act of needing reassurance. Nothing more, nothing less. Of course it's stupid, flawed and whatever you call it, but that's what I want to change. I don't want to feel such impulse anymore but I am waiting for the next such "opportunity" (I hope there is no such) in order to test my control over it, whether will I be able to not act upon it.

[bbogdanov]

You are very much like my previous bf. The only difference is that you are self aware and you are taking responsibility.

 

My ex sort of knew he had a problem but to him, everything would be better if I was more accountable, if I answered my phone faster, if I had different friends. He made me responsible for managing his insecurities.

 

He viewed it as a disability of sorts and if I cared enough I'd be compassionate.

 

At first I was. I didnt do all that was asked of me, but I was forever cautious, second guessing everything I did just so I wouldnt trigger his insecurities.

 

Any time I felt successful at it, he raised the bar.

 

He was upset over something (that didnt happen) and he was so far gone there was no consoling him.

 

We broke up. 3 months later we reconciled. We both promised to do better. His insecurities were not gone, he just got better at hiding them. . So he thought.

 

Though he didnt act out like before, I still walked on egg shells so as to not risk setting him off. It was worse. I could feel the pressure cooker of everything he struggled to hold back and hide. At the same time we weren't addressing the elephant in the room. It felt excruciating until the pressure blew.

 

The lesson here is it's not so much about managing them. That's only part of the work. It's about unfolding and addressing why you have them to begin with.

 

Your insecurities are a symptom of something. Don't just try to manage the symptom. Address the cause.

 

Acting 'as if' is most often not enough

 

EXACTLY! I want to address the root cause but I am struggling finding it. Everything turned 180-degree after my last breakup (2 years ago). Until then I was completely different person. Maybe that rejection took its toll on me somehow (I don't know why). Going out on dates for the next year and a half just strengthened my insecurities and low self-esteem. I couldn't find a gf, got a ton of rejections and my self-confidence fell below zero. I felt not worthy enough and not wanted by anybody. I feel pressure because of my age, too (I'm turning 31 at the end of this week). I am constantly looking at couples at I am sad that I can't share my life with a SO.

[bbogdanov]

Take this with a grain of salt...

 

But maybe all you need is a gentle shift in how you're thinking about your experience. Giving most of the attention to the ''what-ifs'' and the fact that your experiences so far haven't lead to a more lasting relationship is sabotaging your growth. 20 women in a year?! That's pretty awesome. That's called putting yourself out there. Don't shrug off that fact that you're putting in a real effort. And now, with this latest woman things have been progressing well. Again, not something that should be dismissed so quickly. Sure, you don't know where it's going! Nothing wrong with that. In fact, get used to the idea of not knowing...because that's pretty much what life is all about. We spend most of our time not knowing what's around the next corner. That's something you can choose to view through two different lenses. Either it causes anxiety because you're focussed on controlling the uncontrollable, or it causes excitement because you're focussed on embracing the joy of the unknown.

 

I don't believe there are any hard-and-fast rules for dating. Your experience is your experience. You need to learn what you need to learn to continue your own growth as a person.

 

Not simple...but at the same time...so simple. Changing habits of thought. Not taking the thoughts that do come so seriously (they're just thoughts). Self awareness. Self-acceptance. These are things you can cultivate on a daily basis...for yourself. Not so that you're a more approachable or more likeable person...rather so you become more comfortable in your own skin...free to be as you are in the world without expecting anything in return from anyone.

 

Don't forget to celebrate the little victories along the path.

 

I feel I am sabotaging my growth, but for whatever reason, I tend to see only the negatives. Being rejected so many times and not being able to get a gf is the only thing that I am focusing on. Meeting more that 25 women for a little over an year (which is at least a good thing to begin with) is not something I am proud of but I really put an effort to find a SO (hopefully for life). Getting used to the idea of not knowing is something that bothers me. I am such a hardened person that I feel comfortable in the known, I want things to be certain, uncertainty makes me nervous. I want to know if we will have a future together, if we won't break up etc. I know all of this is a total BS and it's completely wrong, but... "Controlling the uncontrollable", you totally nailed it!

[bbogdanov]

If I recall correctly, you did resent your previous girlfriend because she had started her "dream business" and you felt she should have been devoting that time to you instead. I may or may not have you confused with someone who also wanted his girlfriend to dress and groom herself in a certain way, with pleasing you in mind.

 

Please do correct me if that was indeed another poster and not you.

 

But if it was you, then you do have a history of wanting a woman to devote most if not all of her free time to you. You WERE jealous of her new business. And if so, then you still do have some work to do because you may be exhibiting the beginning signs of repeating the same pattern.

 

Again, please correct me if I have you confused with someone else.

 

The thing with the dream business was my ex. The problem, back then, was that we hardly had time for ourselves. It may sound selfish of me (the way you described it), but I really wanted to see her more often. After all, if we've got a serious relationship and the most she can "afford" is a 5-day vacation for the whole year, then something is not right. Maybe it's just incompatibility. Because I am not doing it now (with the current girl), it happens naturally. She wants to see me often, speaks about us moving in some day, spending time with me and so on. We just click in that respect - we've got the same expectations and wishes when it comes to spending time together.