Women can take a lot: The biggest realization that helped me to stop being a nice guy

[CountVronsky]

Like most people in the post-Gen-X generation, I was raised to be a white knight mentality. I also come from a somewhat conservative immigrant family with older, more traditional values which further reinforced this.

 

Long story short, women can take a lot. Think of all the women in your life including your mother, female relatives, etc. and all the difficulties they have had to endure throughout life. The same applies to beautiful women. Think of the pretty marketing girl who is low-paid who was mainly hired for her looks so she can make the company look good for clients or the struggling models who can barely make a living but have to endure all the physical hardships associated with the job in order for a shot to make it big. Point is, struggle and suffering is a part of life and attractive women are not immune to it. In some ways, attractive women tend to suffer more than their plainer counterparts.

 

Her life is her responsibility. It's not your job to save her. And no matter her struggles in life, that doesn't change the basic human nature that she STILL can only appreciate the things she has to work for. If she has to invest and put effort to win your affections and admiration and respect, she will value you more and you'll have a longer-lasting relationship with her.

 

Case in point, I know a girl who grew up in a bad neighborhood and from a broken home. She didn't have any higher education. She's very pretty and smart. But because of her lack of education, higher income jobs are not available to her. So she ended up working 7 days a week and being tired all the time. What's more. She had to financially help her sister who had a baby whose father left them. So she had a lot of financial trouble too. But despite all this, that didn't stop her from visiting her on again and off again boyfriend in Japan which cost a lot of money. Her boyfriend doesn't make a lot of money and doesn't have a stable career. He travels around doing consulting for a living and loves the lifestyle. It prevents him from having stable relationships but that doesn't change the fact that he's an attractive, interesting guy and women tend to be drawn to him. Even a girl who is working 7 days a week, struggling to make ends meet, but will splurge on a month-long trip to Japan just to spend time with him.

 

Whatever circumstances she's in. It's her responsibility. It's not like you've known her forever. You probably just met her. You're not responsible for all the troubles she's having and it's not your duty to save her. Not until you get into a serious relationship with her in which case she has to be supportive of you as well. But in the just getting to know each other phase, you have to respect her boundaries and your own. Nice guys who were brought up to be white knights have this urge and temptation to save women.

 

I know this sounds cliche and obvious and you've heard it a hundred times before. But it's hard to put it into practice. Imagine you know a girl who is beautiful, smart and charming and you love her to bits and you'd do anything for her. And the moment she shows a little interest in you, your first temptation is to shower her back with affection. It takes discipline and a strong will to resist that temptation and reply in an elegant and cordial fashion. That doesn't mean you should be cold or aloof. That's not what I'm saying. But you should ask yourself, how does she act towards other guys? Does she somehow treat you differently? Does she go out of her way and put in more effort and more attention when it comes to you?

 

I struggle a lot with the above but I'm getting better. This isn't some sort of mind game here to win more women. It's not like if you apply all this, that girl you like is gonna all of a sudden like you. If a girl really likes you, you can actually get away without any of the above. But for girls who are borderline or who don't have any interest towards you, it allows you to walk away with your self-respect and self-esteem intact. In the end, it's all a part of valuing yourself and your own self-esteem.

 

On a darker note, and this is just a personal thing, but I am someone who has had white knight behavior really badly. It helped me to develop pleasure in having a sadistic personality. I have a bit of thing for S&M. I'm into that kind of stuff in my sex life. So I applied it to my interactions with women I'm attracted to. To resist the urge to save her and become a white knight to her, it helped me to derive pleasure from watching her "suffer." I don't mean true suffering. And it's definitely not suffering caused by me. For example, my former dance instructor, she was someone I had a hidden crush on for the longest time. To keep our relationship professional and to avoid things to be awkward between us, I learned to derive small pleasure from her suffering. There was one really busy time of year where she literally would spend 12 hours at the studio working with her students and she just became really worn out and tired. Of course I felt sorry for her and wished I could help somehow but to resist the temptation, I enjoyed her watching her tired look and wincing in pain during our lessons. During one of her lessons and in a difficult dance move, she may have pulled a muscle and she cried out oww in pain. Then she apologized. Instead of showing excessive concern and offering to pause the lesson, I just asked, "are you ok?" and made sure she wasn't in any serious pain, and then we continued the lesson. I pay good money for private dance lessons and unless she's in serious pain and unable to dance, we have to continue. Privately, I was amused and thought it was cute to see her in pain. It wasn't a ploy to get into her pants and win her affections. It was a way of keeping our relationship professional and so we could continue our teacher-dancer relationship that didn't feel awkward. It was the best thing for both of us. Again, it's about healthy boundaries and protecting your own dignity.

 

All men including nice guys/white knights have a little of Christian Grey in them. And women don't necessarily think it's degrading or disgusting. Why do you think 50 Shades has sold so many millions and women fantasize about a guy like Christian Grey? Yeah he's rich and handsome but he's also vulnerable but not in a needy way. He makes women work for his affections and literally makes them suffer in pain in order to win his affections. He's not afraid to be himself and to express his values and thoughts. Yah it's extreme and perverted and I'm not saying nice guys should adopt that behavior but taking a little bit of it goes a long way.

 

I'd love to hear your thoughts about the above. Especially from the ladies!

[rosephase]

I think if you take gender out of the first few paragraphs you are talking a good game about avoiding codependent dynamics in a relationship.

 

I think you lose it when you start to talk about mind games. Healthy relationships aren't full of tricks and traps and head games. And personally I would be deeply worried about someone who is getting off on the pain of people around him. And I know a bunch of self identified sadists (was an active part of the BDSM community for years) and what you are talking about is... um... gross? Getting off on pain that is getting someone else off is one thing... feeling pleased, to see someone you aren't playing with, hurt? That's another thing.

 

Anyway... good luck. It sounds like you are moving through some big ideas about relating to other people. I hope you find it helpful in the long run. My best recommendation is to stop thinking everything is about gender. That women are one way and men are another... I think it really helps when it come to treating other people with respect. Also if you find that you are having a lot of sadistic leanings try looking into your local BDSM scene. You might find it helpful in figuring out boundaries and to see examples of ways people can use that impulse for mutually enjoyable experiences.

[arjumand]

"Privately, I was amused and thought it was cute to see her in pain."

 

I think you are well on your way to becoming an glassbowl and you think that's wonderful. I hope you get the kind of woman you clearly deserve.

[ThatwasThen]

Is there a dating question in there somewhere?

[SweetGirl28]

Is there a dating question in there somewhere?

 

Yes, there is!

 

The question is:

 

Would you date this guy?? Lol

 

My answer-----NO

[pippy longstocking]

You seem to be lost in the world of men and women and trying to find your place . You delve a little to deep in my opinion and focus a lot of energy on the whole white knight stuff , pretty girls and how they function on a mental level and game playing .

 

Like Rose said take the gender out of it at the start of your post and there are some valid points , but who is the real you ...I don't think you really know , but you need to just be you .

 

I have no idea who Christian Grey is , but obviously something to do with the book , and I can assure you all women don't desire him/the contents of the book ....the friends of mine who read it told me it was very tame and not worth the read . I feel like you are stuck with stereotyping ...be an individual ....attract an individual .

[katrina1980]

I rather enjoy threads like this; threads that get one thinking about deeper issues other than, "do you think she likes me" or "is he using me"?

 

The OP is like all of us, on his own journey trying to figure out what works best for him. It's a learning process, and experimenting is good.

 

He's discovered being the "white knight" is not, which is good; he is also discovering he rather enjoys the Dom/sub dynamic sexually, nothing wrong with that whatsoever so long as the woman is on board as well.

 

Re his comment about "suffering" and causing the woman "pain," he stated he did not mean that literally, if one is familiar with the Dom/sub dynamic it's not about that at all.

 

@SweetGirl's response, I wouldn't "not" date him; to the contrary I prefer men who are introspective and deep thinkers, sensitive and intense. But I have to interact with a man on a more personal level to determine whether or not I would date him.

 

Re this thread, I am out and about right now and don't have the time to reply with a thoughtful enough response, but will try to later.

[ThatwasThen]

I rather enjoy threads like this; threads that get one thinking about deeper issues other than, "do you think she likes me" or "is he using me"?

 

The OP is like all of us, on his own journey trying to figure out what works best for him. It's a learning process, and experimenting is good.

 

He's discovered being the "white knight" is not, which is good; he is also discovering he rather enjoys the Dom/sub dynamic sexually, nothing wrong with that whatsoever so long as the woman is on board as well.

 

Re his comment about "suffering" and causing the woman "pain," he stated he did not mean that literally, if one is familiar with the Dom/sub dynamic it's not about that all all.

 

@Sweet Girl's response, I wouldn't "not" date him; to the contrary I prefer men who are introspective and deep thinkers, senditive and intense. But I have to interact with a man on a more personal level to determine whether or not I would date him.

 

Re this thread, I am out and about right now and don't have the time to reply with a thoughtful enough response, but will try to later.

 

Maybe he should put it in Journals instead of dating since his opening post is more like a sermon to men who are "nice guys" and what those men should do then it is about being a question about dating???

[katrina1980]

Maybe he should put it in Journals instead of dating since his opening post is more like a sermon to men who are "nice guys" and what those men should do then it is about being a question about dating???

 

Maybe he didn't know about the journal section, he's a new poster, he just joined this month. And I think he was looking to start a discussion; that's what it sounds like to me anyway.

 

But if it's not in the appropriate section, a mod could move it.

 

I'm confused about all the different sections myself!

 

Is the dating section only for people who have questions?

 

Is creating a thread to elicit a general discussion about dating not allowed?

 

Serious question.

[ThatwasThen]

Is creating a thread to elicit a general discussion about dating not allowed?

I've seen threads closed when they didn't have anything directly to do with the sub forum they were placed in.

 

I don't care one way or the other but (in my mind) a better place for this would be Journals or General Discussion.

[journeynow]

Like most people in the post-Gen-X generation, I was raised to be a white knight mentality.

 

Could you please clarify what you mean by that (the bold above)? I'm sincerely curious, since my sons would be in the post-Gen-X generation, as would most of their friends that I know. If I raised them to be white knights I was unaware how I did that, and I'm oblivious to that behavior in other Baby Boomer parents. If anything we were conscious of, it was to raise them with equality across genders and care for the environment and world at large.

[figureitout23]

Maybe he should put it in Journals instead of dating since his opening post is more like a sermon to men who are "nice guys" and what those men should do then it is about being a question about dating???

 

Same thing I was gonna say, the title doesn't match the post.

 

It's like getting an unsolicited d*ck pic. I'm confused and triggered right now.

[Hollyj]

No. Women do not fantasize about Christian Grey, unless there is something wrong with them. I don't know where you are getting your info. Honestly, I thought the movie was a complete waste of two hours. The only reason that dumb movie was big news, was because of the s and m storyline in the mainstream.

 

Your thoughts about seeing others in pain is disturbing.

 

Have e you had any relationships? You're thinking is naive.

[CountVronsky]

I think you lose it when you start to talk about mind games. Healthy relationships aren't full of tricks and traps and head games. And personally I would be deeply worried about someone who is getting off on the pain of people around him. And I know a bunch of self identified sadists (was an active part of the BDSM community for years) and what you are talking about is... um... gross? Getting off on pain that is getting someone else off is one thing... feeling pleased, to see someone you aren't playing with, hurt? That's another thing.

 

It's not serious pain. It's not injury. It's the equivalent of the kind of "pain" you get while working out. Women are conditioned to take a lot of pain due to childbirth.

[CountVronsky]

Could you please clarify what you mean by that (the bold above)? I'm sincerely curious, since my sons would be in the post-Gen-X generation, as would most of their friends that I know. If I raised them to be white knights I was unaware how I did that, and I'm oblivious to that behavior in other Baby Boomer parents. If anything we were conscious of, it was to raise them with equality across genders and care for the environment and world at large.

 

GenX and subsequent generations saw the highest number of households with single mothers. So a lot of children grew up with only one parent, most likely the mother. These mothers due to their experiences passed onto their sons and daughters that men are inherently bad, conniving, cheaters and irresponsible. Add to this the fact that society favors the mother in a divorce and also due to political correctness, you get a generation of young boys who grow up thinking there is something wrong with the male species and feeling a collective sense of guilt. This causes them to be extra cautious and fearful in interactions with women. Ironically, it's the truly gentle and sensitive type of boys who are most impacted by this. They see their mothers struggling growing up and they may actually come to believe that men are inherently bad. So imagine his confusion when he grows up and finds himself turning women off because he's too nice and perplexed that the bad boys are laying women left and right.

[ThatwasThen]

It's not serious pain. It's not injury. It's the equivalent of the kind of "pain" you get while working out. Women are conditioned to take a lot of pain due to childbirth.

How do you know what kind of pain someone else is feeling?

Its very presumptuous of you to proclaim that women are conditioned to take a lot of pain due to childbirth. You are not a woman and you use women instead of some women. Not all of us are able to tolerate pain at the same level.

 

Please tell us about yourself and what you feel rather then presume about women and assume we are all conditioned equally. O.o

[figureitout23]

It's not serious pain. It's not injury. It's the equivalent of the kind of "pain" you get while working out. Women are conditioned to take a lot of pain due to childbirth.

 

Just when you think it couldnt get weirder!!!

[itsallgrand]

It seems, to me, that those who turn to white knighting , often have a lot of anger towards some important female in their life who has been controlling and failed to meet their needs when younger.

 

I know women too who take on a perpetual 'hero role' towards other women, and without fail, come to find out this person was made to feel responsible for a female core person in their life who was not able to adult up for whatever reasons.

 

It makes sense too that you'd both want to protect and see a woman in pain- buried anger which you feel you can't express to the person who it began with but you needed so much and were scared of 'breaking' or being rejected if you did not kiss her ass.

 

Well this is armchair for sure, but if you were really serious, and it may sound over repeated but I do think it helps people, it's to talk to a profession therapist - not because you are awful but to break a pattern of relating you have internalized deeply .

 

Of course you can do it on your own. But professionals deal with these kinds of things day in and out, and if you can go faster to a goal of healthy relating rather than plod along, that's more time in your life not stuck in this .

[limichelle]

No woman wants a Christian Grey! The reason those books sold so well was mainly because it wasn't just based on bdsm the storyline was about a woman changing a disturbed man with a troubled past,set in his ways, which in real life doesn't happen! It was an escape from reality those books. I liked them but that doesn't mean I want to be hanging from a bed frame tied up by my toes. Nor do I want a controlling man like Christian Grey. It was just an escape into fantasy land.

 

If your trying to take tips from Christian Grey so you aren't the hero and like to see pain then I suggest you find the root to your reasoning.

 

Are you bitter about being nice and girls taking advantage of you?

[figureitout23]

No woman wants a Christian Grey! The reason those books sold so well was mainly because it wasn't just based on bdsm the storyline was about a woman changing a disturbed man with a troubled past,set in his ways, which in real life doesn't happen! It was an escape from reality those books. I liked them but that doesn't mean I want to be hanging from a bed frame tied up by my toes. Nor do I want a controlling man like Christian Grey. It was just an escape into fantasy land.

 

If your trying to take tips from Christian Grey so you aren't the hero and like to see pain then I suggest you find the root to your reasoning.

 

Are you bitter about being nice and girls taking advantage of you?

 

 

I hate to say this but I actually disagree, I know a ton of women who were head over heels in love with Christian Grey.

 

From my understanding the BDSM community was in an uproar because it was not actual BDSM, but rather romanticized abuse, but looking at it on the surface, I could understand the formula, a handsome, rich, bad boy who could apparently make a woman orgasm by blinking, whos sensitive and needs saving and is inexplicably attracted to a needy, whiny virgin with zero sexual expierience.

 

It's a formula used by the twilight movies and novels as well just minus the amateur BDSM. It works, but the OPer is talking about something completely different in my mind. I imagine guys with that mindset as ladies room flasher who breathe heavy and have dorito breath. That's just me tho...

[ThatwasThen]

I imagine guys with that mindset as ladies room flasher who breathe heavy and have dorito breath. That's just me tho...

*laughing here*

[IAmFCA]

I hate to say this but I actually disagree, I know a ton of women who were head over heels in love with Christian Grey.

 

From my understanding the BDSM community was in an uproar because it was not actual BDSM, but rather romanticized abuse, but looking at it on the surface, I could understand the formula, a handsome, rich, bad boy who could apparently make a woman orgasm by blinking, whos sensitive and needs saving and is inexplicably attracted to a needy, whiny virgin with zero sexual expierience.

 

It's a formula used by the twilight movies and novels as well just minus the amateur BDSM. It works, but the OPer is talking about something completely different in my mind. I imagine he's a ladies room flasher who breathes heavy and has dorito breath. That's just me tho...

 

True - many women bought off on CG as sexy and powerful and therefore desirable, and found hiz character redeemed itself in book 2. I couldnt read past book 1, so I wont speak to the book further.

 

I can speak to the character's use of coercion and D/s dynamics, and he indeed is an abusive character. As BDSM people will tell you, there are [bad word] in every community and bsdm is no exception.

 

The white knight and the person desirous of saving are made for each other. Each is avoiding intimacy/reality by hoping for a quick fix. The white knight saves others so as to be assured of acceptance, feeling uncertain of it otherwise. The saved one avoids having to figure out life within normal limitations, and in that way avoids having to look and accept ones own limits/flaws/humanity.

 

Each is uncertain of acceptance except through this role, and therefore even more dependent on being accepted by the other. Control, rebellion, victim/blame... many patterms arise that are fundamentally divisive and destructive.

 

To break out of a codependent cycle can be scary and may require third party support. It can be done and yields enormous rewards.

[IAmFCA]

So, back at this...

 

Christian Grey was attractive because of his looks and his money. Making women work for his affection, as you say, made him a jerk. Women were glad - at least the women I know - when she walked out.

 

The D/s man whom I know is fastidious in his communication with women. He would never put her in emotional jeopardy. To the contrary, he respects his partners with honesty and strict adherence to their terms. That may mean he alters his terms, but he will never challenge a woman's boundaries. What engages him is the meticulous skill and mental energy necessary to develop the physical relationship within her comfort zone and slightly beyond it, in tiny increments. Its a control dynamic, yes - about self control, sensitivity, and skill, about being responsible for someone else.

 

Individuals vary widely. Men have wished they could save me, and men have been glad I don't need saving. There really is no one way it is. And trust me, the idea that childbirth makes a woman tolerant of and desirous of pain is just wrong.

 

Drop the cloak of being male, and try to think as a human. Its scary- finding out how valuable you might be just because you are you.

 

That is where the beauty is.

[pippy longstocking]

. So a lot of children grew up with only one parent, most likely the mother. These mothers due to their experiences passed onto their sons and daughters that men are inherently bad, conniving, cheaters and irresponsible.

 

How dare you ..seriously !!!!!!!

 

You have no clue about the world at all ....just this ridiculous bubble you are in were we all want a man like that Grey bloke and think that content is actually s and m ..now this crap ......

 

Women are made for pain because of childbirth ...do you get this sh1t out of a Christmas cracker

 

I reckon this bloke is here just to troll us !

[katrina1980]

How dare you ..seriously !!!!!!!

 

You have no clue about the world at all ....just this ridiculous bubble you are in were we all want a man like that Grey bloke and think that content is actually s and m ..now this crap ......

 

Women are made for pain because of childbirth ...do you get this sh1t out of a Christmas cracker

 

I reckon this bloke is here just to troll us !

 

Hi pips.

 

I can't say where the OP's head is, but I was raised Catholic and was required to attend weekly bible classes.

 

A woman suffering pain in childbirth comes from the Book of Genesis (3:16) -- God making women's pain in childbirth so severe -- God said "I will greatly multiply your pain in childbirth," "with painful labor you will give birth to your children; yet your desire shall be for your husband....."

 

Not sure if it's still this way, but when a couple marries in the Catholic Church, the priest says to the women "you promise to love, honor and OBEY your husband."

 

Women were taught to be submissive, subservient to their husbands. This is the type of marriage my own parents had and the environment I was raised in.

 

As an adult, I have rejected all this, and consider myself an agnostic, but Im thinking perhaps that is where the OP is getting this stuff???

 

Also, in the United States, there is currently a society of men borne of the Catholic Church, called the "Promise Keepers."

 

I don't know much about it but in doing a quick Google search, the National Organization for Women (NOW), an American feminist organization, alleges they encourage inequality within marriage and teach a doctrine of male superiority. Which I sort of knew which is why I mentioned it. The movement is very alive and growing.

 

Of course BDSM is a whole different thing.

 

Again, can't say if this where the OP's ideas and beliefs are coming from, but it's possible.

 

Apologies for bringing religion into this but thought it was worth noting.