An ephiphany - realization.

[youngwoman]

So I went on a tinder date with someone new just to see if I could get into someone new after what happened with my college friend. I wasn't expecting anything of the tinder date because I knew what that tinder person was wanting so I just explained to him all my past exes and what happened.

 

And I realized I am definitely not the problem in any of my situations that happened and he said I'm not the issue, either.

 

I told the tinder date if someone makes out with me on the first date, I don't want to talk to that person. I don't know that person to do that.

I have to get to know a person for anything like that to happen first.

 

He tried (he's 25 so I expected him to be a little bit more mature than 22) and I told him well if he doesn't call me back after I denied him trying to kiss me on the first date then I'll know what he wanted.

 

I told him let's see if he calls me back after to hang out -- if not then he did me a favor -- was pretty blunt about it.

 

I mainly just wanted to see if the tinder date would even show up, lol, because I talked to someone else on there before and that person never bothered to show up even though that person chatted me and asked me to hang out.

 

And with the 22yo, he knows he's definitely the issue and if I react to it he knows it's because he didn't talk to me about how he was really feeling. The 22yo when I didn't think I would meet him again the first time we met months ago, knew about all of my exes and what they did...and so when he started to act like my exes, I was upset. I didn't call him names I just said if he wants to run away and not talk about how he's feeling about stuff that's fine. He's right to talk to a 22yo girl because grown ups talk -- they don't run away.

 

For the longest time people have tried to say I was the issue maybe I'm doing something wrong.

I've come to accept I just find flaky people who don't follow through, who don't finish what they started.

 

I just dislike the fact how people hear about your past troubles and rather than being different, they still act the same as the past people.

 

Anyway...just venting I guess. Have you had similar issues where people tried to blame you when you found out it wasn't you who was the problem?

[Gary Snyder]

Plenty of people kiss on first dates. Kissing is not sex.

[Wiseman2]

It's good you are out dating again. Tinders's ok for meeting people, why not? It's best not to try to use people off tinder especially before meeting, as sounding boards for your latest breakup.

 

Besides if they think they might get laid of course they'll say "he was wrong, you were right, he's a jerk you deserve better blahblahblah"

 

Not sure why you have these strange rules and preemptive strikes? Either the date goes well or it doesn't. Either things were mutual and there's a second date or there isn't.

He tried (he's 25 so I expected him to be a little bit more mature than 22) and I told him well if he doesn't call me back after I denied him trying to kiss me on the first date then I'll know what he wanted.

I told him let's see if he calls me back after to hang out -- if not then he did me a favor -- was pretty blunt about it.

[j.man]

So I went on a tinder date with someone new just to see if I could get into someone new after what happened with my college friend. I wasn't expecting anything of the tinder date because I knew what that tinder person was wanting so I just explained to him all my past exes and what happened.

 

And I realized I am definitely not the problem in any of my situations that happened and he said I'm not the issue, either.

 

I told the tinder date if someone makes out with me on the first date, I don't want to talk to that person. I don't know that person to do that.

I have to get to know a person for anything like that to happen first.

 

He tried (he's 25 so I expected him to be a little bit more mature than 22) and I told him well if he doesn't call me back after I denied him trying to kiss me on the first date then I'll know what he wanted.

 

I told him let's see if he calls me back after to hang out -- if not then he did me a favor -- was pretty blunt about it.

 

I mainly just wanted to see if the tinder date would even show up, lol, because I talked to someone else on there before and that person never bothered to show up even though that person chatted me and asked me to hang out.

 

And with the 22yo, he knows he's definitely the issue and if I react to it he knows it's because he didn't talk to me about how he was really feeling. The 22yo when I didn't think I would meet him again the first time we met months ago, knew about all of my exes and what they did...and so when he started to act like my exes, I was upset. I didn't call him names I just said if he wants to run away and not talk about how he's feeling about stuff that's fine. He's right to talk to a 22yo girl because grown ups talk -- they don't run away.

 

For the longest time people have tried to say I was the issue maybe I'm doing something wrong.

I've come to accept I just find flaky people who don't follow through, who don't finish what they started.

They're not flaky. They're just scared ****less of a lady who can't even wait until the first date starts to begin dumping her dirty laundry all over them.

 

I haven't kept up with your post history to know what happened to you in the past, but as far as your dating techniques are concerned, you're most definitely doing something wrong.

 

If you don't want to kiss, then don't kiss. You don't have to make a speech of it beforehand and use it as a segue to go on about exes and past dating experiences.

 

You should be happy you're attracting guys who flake. That means they're healthy. Be worried about the men who try to stick around even after you pull all this. They're the ones who will have something wrong with them.

[Wiseman2]

Agree. Skip the ex talks.

They're just scared ****less of a lady who can't even wait until the first date starts to start dumping her dirty laundry all over them.

 

]

[Tanzi]

You say you have certain boundaries as regards people wanting to kiss you on a first date yet you went out with someone from Tinder knowing "what they wanted". If you knew what he wanted ... and he knew you knew (or had an idea you knew) then you can't really blame him for trying.

 

Regardless, I don't think there is anything immature in wanting to kiss someone on a first date. If two people are strongly attracted to each other it will happen naturally. That doesn't mean to say that there's anything wrong with you holding back if you don't feel comfortable kissing on the first date. If a guy likes you and is pretty sure you like him then it shouldn't be a problem. However, you seem to be making it a problem before it has even become one. That mentality could be very off putting and a red flag to some guys. First dates should be fun and relaxed for both of you. You can discuss things .... but, IDK, your approach seems a bit .... problematic.

 

From reading this and your previous threads, I get the impression that you have a tendency to make issues out of ... well .... non-issues!

 

Personally, I think you need to relax a little and try to have some fun instead of trying to "test" these dates. By discussing your past troubles, it almost sounds like you are warning them as to what you do and don't expect from them. If I were a guy, I'd probably do one!

[Tanzi]

I think you're fixated on my posts for some reason. I think you have a thing for me. That's why you're obsessed and determined to say I'm the issue in all of my posts, lol. Who are you anyway and why do you think I would take heed of what you say with your condescending attitude?

 

To be quite frank, I think you have a thing for yourself. If this is your attitude it is no wonder why these guys are "flaking". They aren't really flaking. They are running for the hills.

 

I know you won't like hearing that but I can only speak as I find.

[youngwoman]

Note: that I can handle criticism. What I take offense to are judgmental people who want to talk about how I act when some others don't act any better and you have issues in your situations (that's why you're here right?) but you want to judge other people's situations!

 

All I can say is through all my situations, I've never assisted people in cheating or have cheated and didn't feel bad about it.

 

All the people I talk to are single and I'm not talking to any other person's boyfriend/husband.

[IAmFCA]

OP

 

Maybe I can help. I too have been processing the idea that men who date me seem motivated for near-term comfort rather than long-term togetherness.

 

And then I decided this: if that was the filter through which I viewed the men I met, then maybe I was behaving in a way that encouraged that dynamic. For example, the way you laid it out to the tinder date was logical, straightforward. It also sets up that dynamic, just by mentioning it.

 

Given that you associate a kiss with an emotional investment, I suggest you simply don't kiss. Make your dates shorter, make your conversation less familiar, and consider what information you are providing the other person.

 

 

One of life's realities is that we each are responsible for looking after ourselves. It isn't up to the man to know your boundaries. You have to find non-verbal ways to assert them.

 

And yes, your past dating life is too personal to share with new guy. Sharing it is a way of you processing it, and explaining yourself to others so that they can validate you, so that they can have empathy for you. That isn't necessary. There are as many ways to interpret crumby dating experiences as there are people. Every man in your past could have been a perfect gentleman, and you may still be as you are.

 

I am similar in that I am not a fan of the kiss. I love kissing, but I am particular about it. It is an individual thing.

 

Accept that you are how you are and who cares if anyone else does, making your past dating experiences irrelevant. Just go out. Have fun. Say thank you. Go for a hug at the end. Go home.

[youngwoman]

I didn't blame him for trying. I even said if I hang out with a person for a while and I get to liking them, I'm up for that, but not on the first time as I barely just met him and I am not attracted to him since I don't know him like that. If he thinks I won't give him any just because I said no on the first date, that's his loss then if he doesn't call back.

 

 

You say you have certain boundaries as regards people wanting to kiss you on a first date yet you went out with someone from Tinder knowing "what they wanted". If you knew what he wanted ... and he knew you knew (or had an idea you knew) then you can't really blame him for trying.

 

Regardless, I don't think there is anything immature in wanting to kiss someone on a first date. If two people are strongly attracted to each other it will happen naturally. That doesn't mean to say that there's anything wrong with you holding back if you don't feel comfortable kissing on the first date. If a guy likes you and is pretty sure you like him then it shouldn't be a problem. However, you seem to be making it a problem before it has even become one. That mentality could be very off putting and a red flag to some guys. First dates should be fun and relaxed for both of you. You can discuss things .... but, IDK, your approach seems a bit .... problematic.

 

From reading this and your previous threads, I get the impression that you have a tendency to make issues out of ... well .... non-issues!

 

Personally, I think you need to relax a little and try to have some fun instead of trying to "test" these dates. By discussing your past troubles, it almost sounds like you are warning them as to what you do and don't expect from them. If I were a guy, I'd probably do one!

[Tanzi]

Well, the thing is, you went on a date "to see if you could get into someone knew" and "to see if that Tinder date would turn up", with someone you said "you knew what he wanted" ..... so, it was never going to turn out to be a fairytale meeting was it?

 

There's no point in having a problem with something that was started for all the wrong reasons.

[IAmFCA]

I didn't blame him for trying. I even said if I hang out with a person for a while and I get to liking them, I'm up for that, but not on the first time as I barely just met him and I am not attracted to him since I don't know him like that. If he thinks I won't give him any just because I said no on the first date, that's his loss then if he doesn't call back.

 

I am confused.

 

You said you don't kiss on a first meet. Then you kissed him. Or said differently, you let him kiss you (if that is true).

 

So (1) it seems like you both violated your own rule.

 

There is a certain spitefulness or anger in your language, maybe you don't mean it to sound that way. Compare "If he thinks ... then fine that's his loss" with "We just want different things." and with "We had fun but I am not interested." and with "I said don't kiss me, and he kissed me anyway. He didn't earn my trust enough for a second date." and with "It was fun. I let him kiss me even though I said I wouldn't. I kind of liked him. I hope he calls. But if he doesn't, that's okay too."

 

There could be any number of reasons why a second date might not materialize. The place to start is to expect others to see you as a person, a whole person, and not as a sexual object. When you expect men to think of you as a whole person, they are more likely to do so. And, their reasons for not pursuing a second date become much more nuanced: they liked you but not enough, they like several people at once, they lost your number, they got distracted by life, whatever. It isn't just about sex. When you frame it that way, both in your mind and in your conversation with them, you objectify yourself and them, without meaning to do so.

[reinventmyself]

Note: that I can handle criticism. What I take offense to are judgmental people who want to talk about how I act when some others don't act any better and you have issues in your situations (that's why you're here right?) but you want to judge other people's situations!

.

 

Well now . .there is the quickest way to make everyone from ENA run away as well.

You might want to rethink your approach to people in general.

[Tanzi]

That's weird. I reported someone attacking me yet my posts are the one removed. So it's OK for people like J.man to insult people but it's not okay for me to correct him. Great! There's always a handful of posters at each forum that have to post with their attitudes. He can sit here all day pointing out things about me but when I point out things about J.man it's an "attack." Hope J.man received an infraction also.

 

youngwoman, the replies on your thread have been thought out and things you really need to hear. What we think mirrors what people in the real world around you likely think too. It is your posts that have been insulting. It's telling that you can't see that.

 

Putting it plainly and bluntly, you have a very, very bad attitude. You said that, originally, people were saying that you were the one with the issue and now you have realised it is not you .... well, maybe, it's high time you started to hear what you are being told.

[IAmFCA]

OP,

 

You are right. There are a lot of people on this site who have done a lot of crazy things. And there are people who will judge. And there are people who are very very different from you, whoever you are.

 

What this site has almost none of, I mean, it is very very rare, are people who reply with the intent to hurt someone else. The moderators are vigilant about that.

 

Sometimes we hear things that hurt. This is the safe place to feel hurt. Nobody else is watching.

 

----

 

Hurt, pain, and anger are often bundled into one. They tend to travel together. And they tend to be more intense when, underneath it all, we blame ourselves.

 

---

 

It is important to allow ourselves to make mistakes. Big ones. Mistakes are the key to success. None of us is blame free -- if blame were relevant. It isn't relevant. The only things that is relevant is (1) do you like the results you are getting, and if not, (2) what are you going to do to get different results?

 

You are in control of your life, as you know. You tested yourself on this tinder date, and found you were able to kiss someone. So, there is your answer to your test.

 

 

We are also exploring the way you are processing your experience, which in part seems to assign to your date the intention to get sex from you, rather than to share it with you or to get to know you. I would say that IS a form of blaming him for kissing you. I would also say it is a form of judging him.

 

---

 

So what if all a date wants is sex? So what? It means nothing about you. It means only something about the guy. As women, we have many many opportunities to internalize these messages that we exist for sexual exploitation. If that isn't why you exist, then that isn't true for you. Who you are and who you are not is just fact, free of judgment. Same for everyone else. If someone wants casual sex, then that someone will look to find it. The fact that you don't offer it is means that you are different then what he wants. And that is why we date in the first place -- to find someone who wants something similar, and eliminate those who want something different.

 

One guy down. Next!

[youngwoman]

I wouldn't have a problem with his post had it not been for his other post he made in my other thread, J.mann. I asked people who assisted in helping others cheat do they feel bad and the troll, J.mann managed to say I was making that post being catty and petty when I was asking a simple question, lol. Judging by J.Mann's post in this thread, he didn't seem to receive an infraction for his attitude.

 

I wonder why guys want to blame me for reacting...after all, they mislead me and had I let them have their way they would have just slept with me and not called me back. But no, J.mann is absolutely right. I have no good reason to be the way that I am because the guys I meet just want to sleep with me and not get to know me.

 

They didn't seem scared that they could get me pregnant and they don't know me but I protect myself because I'm not going to have any man's baby and they're lucky they don't have to worry about getting me pregnant.

 

So what's this excuse that they are "scared?"

[IAmFCA]

I am sorry you are feeling angry at people here. I feel your pain when I read your anger.

 

Is it possible that someone, somewhere, perhaps in your family, has been hard on you, diminished you, judged you? Maybe in a way that you did not feel "seen" by the very people from whom you expected would know you the best? I know what that feels like and it stinks. Big time. It can be as if you have to scream just to be heard at the level of a whisper.

 

Anyway, I don't know you and have not read your past threads, but I do know anger and grew with and surrounded by a lot of it. It tends to leak out in many many ways, and it tends to push people away rather than draw them close. A therapist taught me that anger was my protective cloak that I used to cover pain, and she was right. She encouraged me to be more plainspoken when I feel hurt.

 

I have been focusing on that skill in the last couple of years (ha, it only took me a few decades!), and it has yielded incredible results.

 

Just sharing, in case it is of interest and relevant to you.

[IAmFCA]

Replying only to the "scared" part, to try to focus this thread back on to your original question here:

 

 

The "scared" comment relates to how much personal information you shared on this first meet. For many or most of us, we want to get to know people in layers. Their public details come first -- how do you spend your day, what sort of work, what sort of school, what sort of sports and interests. The more intimate information comes later -- where do you live, why do you make certain choices. The even more intimate information comes after that -- and so on. Dating history is considered very intimate; for many, they don't ever want to know about it, not even from their boyfriend/girlfriend whom they know well.

 

This may seem illogical: we all date, we all have a history, what is the big deal? We can talk about this -- it was something I had to learn mechanically and come to appreciate over time. So maybe you get it right away, or maybe not, but for now, just accept it as fact. Most people consider dating history to be very intimate information, and maybe information that is never spoken about except with your best (non-romantic) friends.

 

Therefore, when we share our dating history with a person we have only just met, it is overwhelming for them. It is like pouring a gallon of water through a narrow funnel, fast. It overflows the funnel. They don't know how to process the information, they don't know how to appreciate what it means about you. They don't know if you will date them for a year and along the way tell everyone else personal details. It is so overwhelming that they may not even articulate these thoughts. They may just shut down and think WHOA and let the details get jumbled up and run out of their minds as fast as it came in.

 

This is a process called "flooding" and it what happens when our listener is overwhelmed with emotion or with information. Often times, when we spew our anger at someone, they are flooded and unable to respond. Same thing happens with some people when we cry in pain, or when we suddenly tell them the details of our day minute by minute. It is just too much for the other person to process.

[Tanzi]

I wouldn't have a problem with his post had it not been for his other post he made in my other thread, J.mann. I asked people who assisted in helping others cheat do they feel bad and the troll, J.mann managed to say I was making that post being catty and petty when I was asking a simple question, lol. Judging by J.Mann's post in this thread, he didn't seem to receive an infraction for his attitude.

 

I wonder why guys want to blame me for reacting...after all, they mislead me and had I let them have their way they would have just slept with me and not called me back. But no, J.mann is absolutely right. I have no good reason to be the way that I am because the guys I meet just want to sleep with me and not get to know me.

 

They didn't seem scared that they could get me pregnant and they don't know me but I protect myself because I'm not going to have any man's baby and they're lucky they don't have to worry about getting me pregnant.

 

So what's this excuse that they are "scared?"

 

Well to be fair, you are being kinda petty now by referring to j.man as a troll when we all know he isn't.

 

In relation to guys blaming you for reacting etc .. well, my thoughts are that you are reacting unnecessarily. You are going in "all guns blazing" before the issue has even come up. You are setting the precedence. Your approach is harsh and they are also reacting. Meeting guys who only want sex is par of the course, I'm afraid. As it is for guys who might meet girls who have an agenda to be married within such and such a time. It is how you deal with these situations that determines you as a person.

 

How do you know that these guys are just after sex or that they are even prepared to get you pregnant!!! You seem to get a little carried away. You could be pushing these guys away with your hard approach before giving them a chance or by expecting too much too soon.

 

Personally, I just think you need to chill out a bit and learn to take things slowly. You can't have it both ways. If you want one-on-one attention from them from the outset, they can argue that they want the same.

[IAmFCA]

I'd like for J.Mann to respond since he seems to think the men I meet shouldn't be held accountable for anything and it's all my doing.

 

If that is true then you are allowing yourself to be distracted off of your original path. J.Mann is not on your critical path. Despite my respect for him and the perspective he offers this forum, I have neglected to speak of him in my post to you because he is not relevant to you.

 

Your original post about dating and whether you were ready, and how to deal with wanting someone to invest in you and how that contrasts with your sense that others want only sex from you -- those ideas and emotions are what is critical to you. Stay on your path.

[youngwoman]

So far I haven't seen anything J.mann posted that I should respect him saying. Perhaps as I read this forum more, hopefully he will have a better attitude because from what I've seen what he has posted toward me hasn't been correct for my situation.

 

And I don't think talking about my exes had a lot to do with things failing. I talk about exes to see if they can commit. If all they told me was that they had flings and never had any long term relationship that could say to me this person won't be about commitment.

 

The 22yo told me he has only slept with two people and none that he was dating. He also said he didn't care about a girl anymore after he slept with her. So that tells me perhaps a person has commitment issues...doesn't have much to do with me. If people especially J.mann are going to be very critical then they need to be accurate.

If that is true then you are allowing yourself to be distracted off of your original path. J.Mann is not on your critical path. Despite my respect for him and the perspective he offers this forum, I have neglected to speak of him in my post to you because he is not relevant to you.

 

Your original post about dating and whether you were ready, and how to deal with wanting someone to invest in you and how that contrasts with your sense that others want only sex from you -- those ideas and emotions are what is critical to you. Stay on your path.

[Fudgie]

I like jman as a poster but it seems that his bluntness (which I like, it's his style in a lot of posts, not just to you) really tripped you up. But there is some truth in what he said.

 

While I don't personally have the "no kiss on first date" rule, you are fine to do so. But why must you announce it to your date? You can very well just not kiss. If someone tries to make a move towards that, lean away. Or go on dates that aren't as close/intimate so that there will be less opportunity for kissing and other such things.

 

I think going into the first couple dates citing your "rules" (like the kissing, doesn't need to be said but can still by followed by you) and talking about your exes is going to turn off these guys. BTW no double standard, if a guy did that to me, I would be turned off as well.

 

I believe you are very capable of weeding out the guys who aren't right for you without verbalizing your rules or bringing up exes so early on. Focus on talking, seeing what you have in common, and seeing if you like each others' company.

[youngwoman]

It's not bluntness, it's an inaccurate assessment. If you are going to talk to people the way you do, you better have a solid, lasting marriage yourself.

 

Also rather than he criticizing the people who have no remorse about assisting cheating in that thread, he managed to make it about me as well when I asked people how can they live with themselves knowing they helped create an affair, but I'm the bad guy to J.mann for pointing out how people have no morals, lolol.

 

Again, he is not blunt, he is inaccurate.

 

Clearly missing the point of my entire OP and once again saying I'm the issue when I'm not, SMH.

 

I like jman as a poster but it seems that his bluntness (which I like, it's his style in a lot of posts, not just to you) really tripped you up. But there is some truth in what he said.

 

While I don't personally have the "no kiss on first date" rule, you are fine to do so. But why must you announce it to your date? You can very well just not kiss. If someone tries to make a move towards that, lean away. Or go on dates that aren't as close/intimate so that there will be less opportunity for kissing and other such things.

 

I think going into the first couple dates citing your "rules" (like the kissing, doesn't need to be said but can still by followed by you) and talking about your exes is going to turn off these guys. BTW no double standard, if a guy did that to me, I would be turned off as well.

 

I believe you are very capable of weeding out the guys who aren't right for you without verbalizing your rules or bringing up exes so early on. Focus on talking, seeing what you have in common, and seeing if you like each others' company.

[katrina1980]

I'd like for J.Mann to respond since he seems to think the men I meet shouldn't be held accountable for anything and it's all my doing.

 

I believe the 'J.Mann' you are referring to and the j.man on this thread are two different people. While he can be blunt and direct, the j.man on this this thread is thoughtful, compassionate and wise from what I have read thus far. He also has a long term girlfriend and recently got engaged. The J.Mann you are referring to is an a-hole from what I have read.

 

I think you should listen to him (j.man) and others, since you keep encountering 'flakey' men, you are the common denominator. The guy who flaked on you could very well NOT flake on another girl. Look within and you will find the problem and take steps to fix instead of blaming it all on flakey men.

[nutbrownhare]

OP, you sound like someone who's been hurt in the past, is still hurting and are only just taking a few tentative steps towards a relationship. It's painful stuff in the early days, I know, and good for you for trying.

 

However, it does seem that you are unconsciously setting yourself up for the kind of situation you actually fear.

 

I'm not into online dating, but if I were positively trying to find guys who fitted these descriptions person never bothered to show up even though that person chatted me and asked me to hang out.

and

flaky people who don't follow through, who don't finish what they started.

and

people hear about your past troubles and rather than being different, they still act the same as the past people.

 

...then Tinder seems to me to be a good place to start. Which isn't to say that everyone on there is like that, of course, but it would be a bit like joining an angling club and then complaining that all the members ever talked about was fishing! I used to think how funny it would be to write to a problem page with the following message:

 

"Dear Agony Auntie, all the men I meet these days are vain, self-absorbed narcissists. Are all men like this, or should I stop looking for potential dates at the gym?" Which isn't to say that all people who go to the gym would fit that description, but you get the point.

 

Rather than purely looking on Tinder for prospective dates, think about other areas of life which interest you. There are many specialist dating websites with a much narrower membership, and though I'm sure you'd get jerks on there, too - you are much more likely to encounter someone who's more interested in you as a person, and shared interests will be a good introduction while you suss someone out to see if you like them as a person, too.

 

Good luck!