(Bratty) Children in libraries, a vent.

[PaintWithLight]

I agree parents don't always have others to watch the kids while they run errands - my mom raised 3 of us and worked 2 jobs and ran a house - but there is a difference in that and parents just letting their kids run a muck. I was in a store not too long ago and there were 2 kids running up and down the aisle screaming at the top of their lungs. What was mom doing? Browsing the shirt aisle. That is unacceptable to me. A mom desperatly trying to shop while her kids are screaming and she's TRYING to keep them quiet, I have patience for - not a parent who is oblivious to their children causing a ruckos.

 

I think it is like working in a bell factory, after awhile, you do not hear the ringing of the bells anymore. Some parents have the ability to "tune out" the noise of their children. Unfortunately, the screaming, running, kicking and wrestling around is actually happening while the parent is blissfully away in their happy place.

 

I like a modern library too but kids need to be taught respect and manners for shared common places, even if they run wild at home. A library, a store, a market, shopping center seem to be a "free play area" with no rules for many children. If you do not believe me, walk down the toy or children's aisle at a Walmart or Target store after a family day of shopping.

[Seraphim]

I really don't see this all too much unless it is Christmas time and then everyone is wound up. I dunno, where y'all live, but I really do not see any of this that often. Maybe I am not looking for it either though. Plus as a parent myself I have learned the ability to tune some stuff out. It is a survival tactic. Seriously, though folks I see this maybe once every six months that a child has an issue in public and I shrug and move on. Also too I try not to get my pants in a bunch about other people's kids because it is their business not mine and I know I would certainly not appreciate someone else's judgment of my parenting, so I tend not to judge theirs, unless they are abusive or otherwise causing a child harm. I realize kids get crabby and they can act up and I accept it. I also accept that maybe a kid is having a bad day or so is the parent. I also accept that maybe there are some conditions that can make a child more out of control and maybe the parent can't take it another second that day and so they just let it all hang out, it happens.I also accept that as parent you have to pick your battles and you can not fight with your kids all the live long day about everything.

[PhilliesFan001]

I agree that parents should actually parent their children and if a child is acting up, it's their parent's responsibility to try and control it. I'm not pretending that bratty, loud children in public isn't annoying - it is. It makes me grind my teeth sometimes, especially on planes and trains. But, what can you do? At the end of the day, a brief disturbance in public is not a huge deal to me, like Victoria said, I feel momentarily put out and annoyed, then shrug it off and move on. I always think, at least I won't be going home with that kid!

 

There are a lot of factors at play that you may be unaware of. I'll never forget being in a grocery store and seeing a child throwing an absolute tantrum - knocking things over, screaming, going into a pure fit. People were giving the mother dirty looks and muttering to themselves until she finally got frustrated and yelled out that the child was autistic, was upset by something he saw in the store, and that she had a hard time controlling him.

 

You simply can't tell what child is special needs and what child is just a little a-hole, so I mind my own business. There are plenty of annoying, loud and obnoxious adults out there as well.

[Moontiger]

I do acknowledge that in certain cases of what I see as "bratty" behavior there are most likely factors I am not seeing. That being said I have been seeing this kind of behavior more and more. I very much doubt that in all or even the majority of cases there are factors I am not seeing.

 

For example, when I managed a clothing store we had long metal hooks to get clothing down from high on the walls. Periodically a mother and her son would come in, the son would grab one of the hooks and start swing it around nearly hitting people and knocking display signs over. The mother just browsed the racks without doing anything about it, the children who run around under the clothes racks and jumping out at random people, again the parents not doing anything, the kids who run behind the check out counter as I would be ringing up their parents purchase-grabbing at me and yelling questions, the list goes on and on.

 

IMO, and I know not everyone will agree with this, (and in some case where there is a medical condition to consider this would not be the right course of action) if your child is acting up you need to remove them. I don't expect kids to sit completely still and be completely silent. That's unrealistic. But I do expect a certain leave of decorum both from parent and from child.

 

I also expect a parent to understand when bringing a small child along somewhere is appropriate or not. Fancy restaurants, movies, theater, if you kids can't sit still and be quiet don't bring them. If they are normally well behaved and are having a bad night remove them. Don't disturb everyone else, that just selfish IMO.

[Seraphim]

The thing is the fellow in your siggy there is promoting intolerance against a segment of society and it really revolts me. If he said no blacks or no Asians or no gays he would be sued 15 ways to Tuesday, but because it is kids people think it is ok. Makes me sick. Kids can not change their age and magically become an adult anymore than someone can not be their own race. If people want to preach intolerance I do not see why they expect any themselves. And the fellow is your siggy I hope he remembers his own intolerance when he is waiting to have his diaper changed in the old folks home cause kids arn't kids forever and they will be the ones looking after HIM and I hope they remember what a dirt bag he was.

[Seraphim]

Yeah, that has happened to me because my son is autistic and I have had to tell people in no uncertain terms to screw off if he had a fit or two when he was small. The thing is people just want to judge most have no tolerance at all but they want some for them though.

 

And you are right there are PLENTY O PLENTY of obnoxious adults that no one seems to mention.

 

God bless you for having some tolerance.

 

 

 

 

I do not get why it is ok to discriminate against kids and yet people are horrified if anyone else is discriminated against. I see it as exactly the same. A kid is a human being and should have the same rights as someone else. I would NEVER give my patronage to ANY business that discrimiated against anyone group in society, to me that is disgusting.

[Moontiger]

The thing is the fellow in your siggy there is promoting intolerance against a segment of society and it really revolts me. If he said no blacks or no Asians or no gays he would be sued 15 ways to Tuesday, but because it is kids people think it is ok. Makes me sick. Kids can not change their age and magically become an adult anymore than someone can not be their own race. If people want to preach intolerance I do not see why they expect any themselves. And the fellow is your siggy I hope he remembers his own intolerance when he is waiting to have his diaper changed in the old folks home cause kids arn't kids forever and they will be the ones looking after HIM and I hope they remember what a dirt bag he was.

 

I actually agree with you. I think his policy is extreme. IMO if a child is acting up and the adult are asked to get him/her under control and fail to then they should be asked to leave. As I side there are some children who can behave in public. But from my experience there are many parents who either think everything their child does is cute

(throwing food, screaming), don't care how the kid acts, or grossly over-estimate their child's ability to behave in a fancy restaurant, movie etc.

 

Again, its really the parents I have a problem with not so much the kids. Kids do what kids do, nothing wrong with that. But when it starts to effect other people then there is a problem. If an adult was running around as store hiding under racks and jumping out at people how fast would he be removed from the store? Certain behaviors are disruptive to that point that a parent needs to just bite the bullet and take the kid home.

[OptomisticGirl]

I agree, some kids do have a reason - such as they are autistic - but the fact is, some parents just dont give a crap what their children's behaviour does to others. I love children, loooovvveee children and want to be a parent more thn anything, but it's something I have seen a rise in myself of parents just letting their children run amuck. If tuning out the child is a survival tactic fine, but the fact is, you aren't alone in this world. You can't tune out a screaming child in public (as long as they don't have a medical condition) like you do at home because you aren't in your home, you are in a store with other people. I have never said anything or given a dirty look to a parent who let's their kid run screaming throug a store - I turn around and go the other way - but yeah, it's off setting to go in for a 15 minute shopping trip that lasts 30 because I'm waiting 10 minutes for a parent to get their child under control why they just browse the book section.

 

I actually rather agree with your siggy Montiger. My child will be the centre of my universe, but i don't expect everyone else to tolerate my child just because they are a child. I'm the one who made the decision to have that child, not the rest of the world. Children can't change their age and how they act - kids do get hyper and excited - but it's not really the kids I have a problem with, it's the parents. Maybe my intolerance of it comes from how I was raised. I acted out in public ONCE with my mom and a few good pats to the butt, I never did it again. I tested my boundaries but my mother was the kind of mother who never had to get pass 2 when counting for me to do anything. So for me, I see it as a sign of disrespect to a parent when a child (of proper age to know they shouldn't be screming and running around) does that.

 

Yes, we should all try to live with tolerance in our lives - the fact is, there are those parents who make it hard on the good parents. I'm one who whenever my nephew acts out in public, I immediately pick him up and leave. That, to me, is a sign of tolerance for everyone else in the store on my part. Tolerance works both ways.

[Seraphim]

Yes, some times kids do need to go home, you are right. And, yes, some parents do have no control. However I do not find that is as huge a situation as sometimes people make it out to be. And yes, I DO understand that people get frustrated especially if they are not parents. And even some parents do get frustrated. What people have to remember is sometimes there are extenuating circumstances that you are not privy to. And sometimes parents would never leave home if that was the case because they have no help. And yes no one held a gun to their head and made them have those kids, however my retort to people who work in connection with the public is no one held a gun to your head and made you work with the public either. Really all I want is to advocate tolerance for ALL people in society and kids who can not defend themselves find themselves on short end of the stick. Because they are kids people think they can discriminate, and it is wrong, and no one would stand for it if it was anyone else in society.

[OptomisticGirl]

The difference is, people who work in retail and such, have to make money and survive. Having children doesn't out food on the table. No one is discriminating against children - if anything, my problem is with the parents of the kids who don't have a medical reason for their children to be acting out.

[Saffron_]

As for the OP's rant about public libraries, we need to realize that pubic libraries are undergoing a huge transformation. They are no longer the quiet hallways of learning but they are turning into community centers with a variety of "non-traditional" activities. Many of the people at the library are niche users only: they come for the free internet, to pick up forms or applications, check out free entertainment like DVDs or CDs, or simply to have an open and cool area as an escape from an overcrowded and loud apartment. The hard truth is that many many library users are simply not at the library to study or learn.

 

This is so true and while on one hand it's great that libraries are geared up to youngsters with their mum and baby groups etc, it's a shame that certain sections of society i.e. working adults are being turned away. I can no longer use my local library even thought I'd like to. About a year ago I went to my local library after work to get a couple of books and maybe a film and wind down from the hellish day I'd had and hellish commute (being packed like a sardine on the subway is no fun). But no sooner had I got there (just before 6pm) than one of the librarians told me they would be closing in 5 minutes. I was a bit annoyed because the libraries used to be open till 8pm but i just thought 'Oh well i'll come back on saturday' but when I went out and looked at the opening hours I noticed they were shut saturdays as well!

 

Now I understand council cutbacks need to be made to save money but what I don't get is why working adults who pay for these public services to be running are less and less able to use them. Our libraries are now open 10am-6pm and are closed on weekends. What use is that to me? Maybe I'd like to use the library to escape from the stress of my busy office or my hellish commute or the loud city centre tenement in which I live, but I guess that's not an option anymore. Sorry I'm ranting here! lol! What I did notice though the last time I was there was the tiny room at the back of the library which used to be the quiet room/reference area was completely full (well there was about 8 people which by library standards is quite full) whilst in the main library there was a couple of mums with babies in buggies and two kids around 4 years old chasing each other up and down the aisles, laughing and screaming as they went. The mothers just chatted away paying no notice but honestly, a library is NOT a playpark. I was slightly annoyed by the screaming but I really wouldn't have wanted to be the students next to me who were studying pass papers for their exams!

 

Personally as much as I like children and I do, I try my best to avoid situations where I might be stuck in close proximity with one, or worse a group of them! Because you just don't know if they're gonna be well behaved ones or total and utter brats. If I go for a pre theatre meal, I try to choose a place that doesn't have a childrens menu or even better is upstairs in a building with no lift (no buggies!). When I'm on a train and I see babies or toddlers getting on, I move to another carriage. Some people are considerate of others and some are not and I really don't see how to solve an issue like this without banning children from certain places or at least at certain types of day. I will say though that adults/non parents can be just as annoying as children. The last time I went to London I managed to book a quiet carriage and I looked forward to a journey without having to listen to various peoples mobile phone conversations. Ten minutes in and some loudmouth is on his mobile to his office discussing work related **** which I had no interest in listening to! Total idiot! Why book the quiet carriage if you're gonna talk for the whole journey? Thankfuly he was asked by other passengers and train stewards to turn his phone off. Ahh but that's the problem with common sense, it's not that bloody common!

[Seraphim]

The difference is, people who work in retail and such, have to make money and survive. Having children doesn't out food on the table. No one is discriminating against children - if anything, my problem is with the parents of the kids who don't have a medical reason for their children to be acting out.

 

My answer is get another job then to fullfill your survival needs if they can not hack working with the public. They do not HAVE to have THAT job. Discrimination is discrimination whether it is making a living or not. Human beings are human beings.

 

The thing is disabled kids do not walk around with a sticker on their head saying "hey I am autistic so I might throw a fit or two please have some patience." I also do not feel I should HAVE to give my son's medical history to some judgment person who feels the have the need to tell me off.

[Moontiger]

I get what you are saying. I really do. But tolerance only goes so far. For example, I had to fly recently I was sitting in front of a baby who was not even a year old. Poor little guy cried most of the flight. Here is how I look at the situation 1)Is the child old enough to know the behavior is unacceptable. In this case No. 2)What is the parent doing to manage the child? The babies mom was doing everything she could. I turned around and gave her sympathetic smile and she seemed be grateful for that. 3)Is the parent in a situation where they can easily remove that child? Since we were on a plane No.

 

But lets take another situation. I'm at a store looking for a pair of jeans and a five year old runs into me as he grabs clothes pulling them off the hangers. The mother is looking through the racks but lets say she comes over and tell him to stop and he starts to scream at the top of his lungs. In that situation the mother she pick up the kid and leave.

[OptomisticGirl]

My answer is get another job then to fullfill your survival needs if they can not hack working with the public. They do not HAVE to have THAT job. Discrimination is discrimination whether it is making a living or not. Human beings are human beings.

 

The thing is disabled kids do not walk around with a sticker on their head saying "hey I am autistic so I might throw a fit or two please have some patience." I also do not feel I should HAVE to give my son's medical history to some judgment person who feels the have the need to tell me off.

 

You preach tolerance Vic but your tolerance doesn't go the other way. Yes, I try to be very tolerant of parents who let their children run screaming and yanking products off shelves - should they also not show me tolerance by disciplining their child or taking their child out seeing as they didn't make my decision to shop in that store just as I didn't make their decision to have kids? This is my problem. Some parents think their child can do no wrong simply because they are a child - i just dont see children as these glass objects that are going to break if you trll them no. As I said, some parents have respect for others when it comes to this but it's the few who don't who make it so much worse.

 

I have never, nor never would I tell someone I'm annoyed by their child. Like I said, I just turn around and walk the other way.

[OptomisticGirl]

I agree. Some situations I actually feel sorry for the parent. Like in the plane incident, I would just turn and smile and maybe even try to make funny faces at the baby. The baby doesn't know it's surroundings and mom can't just get up.

[Seraphim]

Yes, I get what you are saying Moontiger. I am not saying that kids should run amok all over and create mayhem. I CAN understand frustration with that. What I won't tolerate though is using that to promote discriminating against children simply because they are children and sometimes do not fit into ADULT social norms. Discrimination is bad and wrong. It might kids today, but you never know when it will include you, ya know? Society is supposed to be moving forward to being tolerant to all people right? Is that not what people fought for in 60's? Is that not what people DIE for around the world every single day? Yet some people want to take it away from kids and do not see them as the same as other human beings in the world.

[Seraphim]

I do have tolerance OG, I have a lot more than most people. I just do not like when people like that resturante owner promotes discrimination. I promote human beings as human beings and I never said I promoted kids as glass objects or that they can do what they please. Believe me my son was disciplined and behaved and is a great teenager better than most. I seldom have a problem with him. But I WON"T put up with promoting discrimination because discrimination brings down the entire world no matter who it is against.

[OptomisticGirl]

I dint think restaurants should ban children, no. I believe there should be kid friendly restaurants and none kid restaurants as there always has been. But I do agree with the fact that some parents think that just because they had a child means the rest of the world has to cater to their child. I'm sorry, but you were the one who chose to have a child. Just as I have chosen to have a child and will be responsible for how that child acts in public. not all parents think this way but as I said, a few bad apples ruin the lot.

 

I do have tolerance OG, I have a lot more than most people. I just do not like when people like that resturante owner promotes discrimination. I promote human beings and human beings and I never said I promoted kids as glass objects or that they can do what they please. Believe me my son was disciplined and behaved and is a great teenager better than most. I seldom have a problem with him. But I WON"T put up with promoting discrimination because discrimination brings down the entire world no matter who it is against.

[Seraphim]

People have to look at the wider scope of discrimination, that is what I am saying. Whether you choose to or not is up to you. If you choose to ignore it too it is up to you. There are really two issues here. Just do not ignore the bigger one cause it might bite people in the end.

[Saffron_]

People have to look at the wider scope of discrimination, that is what I am saying. Whether you choose to or not is up to you. If you choose to ignore it too it is up to you. There are really two issues here. Just do not ignore the bigger one cause it might bite people in the end.

 

Unfortunately Vic, non-parents are already really discriminated against these days. probably more so than children/parents are.

[OptomisticGirl]

The only issue I see is parents letting their kids run amuck when the kid may not have a medical condition. I was in a store many years ago and this kid, about six or seven I guess, came up to me with one of those foam noodles you play with in the pool and kept hitting me on the leg with it. Am I suppose to just stand there and smile at the child who is hitting me, a complete stranger, with a foam noodle while his mom was behind me chatting on her phone? And when I politely caught her attention and pointed down to her child - who was still hitting me - she told me he can hit whoever he wants because he's a child.

 

Tolerance in the face of ignorance only goes so far.

[OptomisticGirl]

Unfortunately Vic, non-parents are already really discriminated against these days. probably more so than children/parents are.

 

I agree. Parents think none parents are discriminating against them by not being okay with their kids being bought into a none-kid zone when the other side works as well. Parents discriminate against none parents by believing their kids can be bought anywhere.

[ApocalypseDreams]

I agree, there are alot of parents who just let their kids run amok thinking that the whole word must tolerate it because their kids are everything to them.

 

Personally, I find the comment about people in retail should just deal with it or find another job offensive. That's not a very tolerant attitude to people who work in retail. Nowadays alot of people struggle to get any job so making out like it's optional is ludicrous and a little naive. Are you living in the same world I am? It might be an option to some but to many it's how they survive (barely).

 

As someone who worked in retail for 5 years, I've been physically threatened, verbally abused and treated like garbage by people. All I was doing was trying to do was support myself during my university degree! I've also been expected to clean up after someone's child has made a mess because somehow the parent doesn't think it's their responsibility and it's somehow in my job description. It's not!

[Seraphim]

I have worked in serving the public, believe me, I do not however promote discriminating against an entire group of people. When I did not want to do that job anymore I just went and got another one. And YES, I do live in the same world as YOU. I worked with public for 26 years of my life and if you think I did not get the same things as you you are wrong. I just do not think having a job working with the public is justification for discrimination. And if people want to say " suck 'er up cause yer the parent." Sometimes I do say, " suck 'er up, you picked the work" Everyone makes a choice, don't like the choice, change it.

[Saffron_]

The only issue I see is parents letting their kids run amuck when the kid may not have a medical condition. I was in a store many years ago and this kid, about six or seven I guess, came up to me with one of those foam noodles you play with in the pool and kept hitting me on the leg with it. Am I suppose to just stand there and smile at the child who is hitting me, a complete stranger, with a foam noodle while his mom was behind me chatting on her phone? And when I politely caught her attention and pointed down to her child - who was still hitting me - she told me he can hit whoever he wants because he's a child.

 

Tolerance in the face of ignorance only goes so far.

 

Oh dear well let me tell you this OG, I had an experience of standing in line at reception in a doctors office when all of a sudden I heard a loud farting noise and I looked behind me to see a little boy of around 4 or 5 holding a whoopee cushion up to my ass and laughing hysterically! It was in a room full of people and luckily I don't embarrass too easily but I was annoyed and could have smacked that little sod accross the room!

 

There was also an occasion where I was in a changing room trying on clothes and a little boy who had been peeking behind some of the other curtains, desided to pull my curtain wide open just as I was trying on a bra! MORTIFIED! Haha!