monsieur

yeah, all the time, you can be the most good looking and nicest guy, but without the 'game' you lose them everytime, whereas the guy with game might not get the first glance, but if he can get in a conversation with the girl he is in.... sucks to be shy and not confident, lose the sure things over and over again

I did the same mistake, thinking that it is a window of opportunity that must not be missed, and should have just played it cool and been there for her, if she was interested then things could have progressed, but hitting her with a verbal 'pick me now' method was not the way, together time and lots of thoughtful conversation and gentle sincere hugs and stuff would be much better, if she fell into your arms and cuddled you are in, but the go to dinner and tell her I want to be her boyfriend method is no good. friendship is a two way street, no one is doing anyone a favor in being their friend, but some people try to hard and be friends to others that take advantage of them

telling a woman you are interested in her is not the way, you have to 'show' a woman you are interested in her, and it isn't necessarily achieved in one day.... if the give and take is there and she is showing you that she is interested too, then you can start the 'telling' part, but to start with the 'telling' is all wrong

I guess only you can answer that, but only if you are totally honest with yourself and really analyze the whole situation. You were definitely considering your own feelings when you acted, and maybe not understanding her feelings or even trying to. It was probably the best time for you just to be there for her and take it slow, rather than the ultimatum that saying 'I can't continue with you as friends because of my feelings'... it is still a form of blackmail even if you don't see it that way and even if it reflected the way you felt inside (although you were concentrating inside on your own feelings a bit selfishly). So in your mind you were telling her something honest, but it was not the right time to tell her that and also not the right time for you to listen to those inner feelings so strongly. Sometimes your honest feelings are not correct and also maybe should be kept to ourselves for more thought and reflection rather than being hurtful and regretting it later..... the way we feel can change too.

sorry if I misunderstood your explanation, but it seemed like you 'put the screws to her' by choosing the vulnerable time after her break up to tell her 'relationship with me or no friendship either' is that not basically what you did? you basically chose that vulnerable time to turn your friendship parameters with her all around, when what she needed from you the most was understanding and as little change as possible, think of it from her perspective

I'm the same..... what really hurts me inside is the fact that the girl that rejects me finds a different guy that she doesn't reject, can't help but feel that I am lacking somehow and that the other guy is better, which drives me crazy because in every other part of my life other than dating and relationships I have great self esteem and feel that I'm great. It even seems like the guys that she would end up with are scum compared to me, but obviously they are light years ahead of me when it comes to relationship getting skills.

wow, so you did torture her when she was vulnerable in trying to manipulate the situation for your own selfish goals, she should have dumped you as a friend too, but in her fragile state she didn't sorry if that comes off as being harsh but I think that is what happened there you must admit that you did it all wrong if your hope was to get in a mutual healthy loving relationship, at the very least you weren't a very good or understanding friend to her when she needed it most, and probably wouldn't be a very good or understanding boyfriend to her if it would have ever ended up that way my philosophy that I try to follow nowadays is try to put myself in the shoes of the other person, and always try and take a step back from a situation and see if maybe I am not seeing the whole picture or if I am seeing it from selfish means only.

Plus it wasn't a case of being out of my league or anything like that. She had said many times that I was handsome and a 'hunk', so in my mind I thought "wow, she likes me", but in her mind looks and friendship don't necessarily equal to her heart being into boyfriend/girlfriend zone. I can't figure that out about women, but somehow there is a friendship chemistry and a lover chemistry, and it is like the chemistry gets figured out in her mind at an early stage in the relationship and you are doomed to stay in one zone and not the other, no matter how nice and good looking and all. I had a great friend, now I screwed it up and now just have a friend.

Well, she didn't cut me off per se, but it has changed things to where I am not as comfortable with her myself and she is not as comfortable either, and it is impossible to avoid... you will see if you try, part of what intrigued me in the friendship was the fact that I liked her so much and had that glimmer of hope always in the back of my mind. She basically said that she liked me alot and all but how she follows her heart when it comes to relationships. So I think that with women they are in a relationship with you or working toward it right from the start or not, if it is in friendzone then you are stuck there... using the logical (to us) method of 'telling her your feelings' never will work I think now too that she feels that she has to be more careful in leading me on, which means she doesn't contact me as much, she used to email me twice or more a day, now she is careful to ration that to twice a week.. .she used to text message me daily, now once a week maybe.... all of this happened when I told her that I really liked her and thought that we should be a couple. There is an uncomfortable feeling deep down now. Everything changed overnight... .I wish I hadn't done it.

I still think Poco is right.... if there is heavy flirt action you 'might' have a chance, if not, 'telling her your feelings' is totally not going to work. Women don't work that way. Logic is not involved. Logic is what works for friendships. If you have any chance with her it has to be in the mutual flirting leading to more and more comfort level with physicality. If she is not already right beside you and cuddling you do not want to try for more, you will guaranteed ruin the friendship, and it is not 'worth it' when it is a guarantee you will fail.

It is sad but true what they are telling you. Don't make the mistake I and others did. The only way to do it is by touchy feely stuff and body language, telling her how you feel is definitely going to ruin things. If you do little stuff like touch her arm and then maybe see if you can rub her neck (I am talking about over weeks, not all at once), and if she is receptive you will know, if she slows you down then I would be very careful as it is 99.9% likely that she will never go past the friend stage. You have to err on the side of assuming it is just friendship unless she really gives you physical signs of cuddling or stuff like that.... women are funny about these things, if she wants you as more than a friend you will know it as she will get physical with you first (cuddling or whatever). Don't ruin the friendship like I did.

I just went through similar, but friends for not years, 6 months maybe, then when I tried for more it looks like it ruined things and now added a certain level of discomfort that I don't think we will be able to go back to the way it was, it may have made it so we will end up further apart than closer. Wish I hadn't done it but I was in love with her and it seemed logical for me to want the friendship to go to the "in love" stage, but she didn't so now it is ruined. For me it had nothing to do with wanting sex either, just wanted all that goes along emotionally with being partnered. It backfired on me so badly!

You sound like the perfect type of match for me, as I am the same way, always checking every 15 minutes for emails and respond back to emails instantly, and go crazy when I'm with a girl that doesn't match that kind of enthusiasm.... I get really insecure when I am not getting back the kind of attention that I am giving. I even stop what I am doing to find a computer to check. A match for me would have to be just as communication obsessed or she would drive me crazy with worrying whether she cares or not.

I find when they say you are a "nice guy" they mean that it would be alot easier for them to reject you if you weren't so nice, so they feel bad about it and might beat around the bush a little more, but your boringness has failed you and you are "outta there", no matter how nice and well you treated her. I hate hearing it all the time too, because I treat women so extremely well, yet I am so unconfident and boring that it isn't enough to try to compensate with presents and compliments and thoughtfulness, when they are with me they are watching the clock and yawning.

Holy cow, don't be sorry at all for your post, you almost describe me to a tee as well.... I only get in relationships when the girl is very aggressive, and always get the "you are so nice" kind of 'compliment'....... I am very very shy too with girls that I am attracted to, I can actually be outgoing with many people, if I don't really like a girl I can feel comfortable, but if it is anyone I am at all attracted to my shyness completely holds me back to where I am not even fun to be around. I have a six pack too and am tall and girls always say that I am so cute, and girls are always smiling at me and giving me signals, but the bravest I ever get is maybe not bowing my head down and looking away once in a while. I've had girls go through elaborate plans to get set up with me too, so that actually hurts my self esteem even more to know that I have the ability to attract tons of girls until I get the chance to blow it with my shyness and boringness and lack of confidence. I know what you mean, it makes little sense but it is deep inside me to feel this way.

Are you really only 23 years old? Most people twice your age aren't nearly as wise. Very thoughtful post and made me reflect and learn... thank you.

I saw George Costanza do this and it was so me I had to laugh...... anyone else make notes before they phone up a girl so that they are prepared with things to say when it for sure gets awkward? and when the notes run out they end the call? I am so stilted and nervous that I dread the phone calls, and if I am not prepared with notes it is like the nerves completely shut down my brain and I just go blank (it happens sometimes in person too). It is a big problem if you are trying to be attractive to someone, I know it's cost me many potential good relationships.

if it is a social anxiety disorder, what are the common ways to deal with it? I don't really want to get dependent on drugs.

I find my body language is a constant problem for me. I am very shy deep inside, but I can fake it often, but my body language will often give me away as far as telegraphing my discomfort of being in a stressful situation.... example: I really like a girl, I really want to get to know her, of course this is stressful and nerve racking for a shy guy, so even though I may get up the guts to talk to her it is a constant battle for me not to allow my body language to betray me by 'pulling back' or 'sending out vibes of wanting to get away from the stress and be alone' I have blown many chances because I just could not hide the fact that being in the situation was uncomfortable for me.

I think the reality of what you will find is that most shy guys hate the fact that they are shy and wish they weren't shy, so that is a vicious cycle of not being happy with who they are.... and thereforeeee not confident in who they are. Many many shy people are unhappy with their social place in life.

I wish I could find girls that can appreciate guys that have no confidence. It is just the way I am and always have been. I think there is a shyness gene. It is so deeply ingrained in me, I can fake it if I try hard but the shyness is always deep down trying to come out and squash my confidence. The biggest problem and also a reality check for me is the fact that 99.9% of women always list 'confidence' as being their number one thing needed in a man. I know I am not confident and never will be, at best I can fake it, but that is a fraud. I just read a profile of a girl and thought she was a match for me but then got to the line where she says "I find confidence insanely attractive..." and INSTANTLY I thought 'no chance for me'. Life I guess is meant to be disappointing for many of us.

Thanks for the thoughtful replies Poco, your generous thoughtfulness will come back to you I am sure. I appreciate the assignment, I think I will wait a week or two and maybe try a less daring version of the assignment, I need to get over the emotional stress of this whole thing, just yesterday I was looking at a friendship card she had given me and embarrassing as it is to say I let my emotions get the better of me and tears were streaming, so I guess you can say I am pretty messed up with my lot in life. Thanks again. I am EXACTLY in the same boat as the other guy, where it feels like being friends with her with no chance at anything more yet me being totally head over heels in love with her still feels better than not being around her at all. Emotions suck, knowledge of self limitations sucks, life sucks.

I know what you are saying, but I used the life of the party thing as a bit of an exaggeration. My problem is that I am more of a listener, I can carry on a conversation with a very conversational girl, but I am not a story-teller and until I really really get comfortable (months) with someone I am not able to comfortably pull off a joking kind of attitude. So a first date or two with me can be pretty boring unless the girl is a talk a mile a minute type. Guess I should stick with those types of girls, but my experience finds the most outgoing girls really like even more outgoing kinds of guys.

First I must say thank you for your thoughtful posts and time that you put into these reflections, it really makes me think and gain a better perspective on my own life. I must ask, if a guy makes a very bad blemish on a friendship by inappropriately choosing the wrong time and the wrong modus-operandi to try and push the friendship into more, is there hope to repair the friendship and then hope ever for the friendship to become more some time in the future? Let me explain, friends with a girl for many months, she ignored any kinds of overtures to more closeness and made it clear that she just wanted friendship, but it is an every day email and many visit type of friendship. I am in love. I made an email suggestion that I wanted more (I know, bad to do over email). She got very upset and took it badly. Is there any hope for me to go back to the friendship we had, and she basically angrily said to me in a talk the next day , that she would "never" get into a romantic relationship with me, so I guess my hopes that this could ever get romantic would be foolish, even if I changed? I know I did it all wrong, should have been more flirty and jokey, and never pushed the romance concept until very sure, but I have screwed it up, and it would hurt me bad to leave and look for another girl (I am so into this girl I probably come accross to her as being obsessed). Maybe if I change and get some more game things could come together for us in the future? or is it screwed up so bad there is no hope ever? I guess staying single and alot of self reflection might be in order. My confidence is shot.

wow, a female counterpart to almost exactly my problem too, except Im a guy except when I get nervous I tend to clam up and can't joke around I can get into friendzone easily because I am very thoughtful and treat friends well and get called "too nice" very often, but I am NEVER brave enough to make a first move towards sexual intimacy In the past my sexual relationships did need to involve starting with way too much booze, and of course that is not a solid way to start quality relationships Now I do not drink much at all, so I am pretty much finding I am stuck in the friend mode, I don't seem to have the tools that some guys take for granted and don't have the confidence to really flirt or even feel comfortable with flirty talk.