Rejected sexual advance; he broke up with me

[i1dr]

You are absolutely right teardrops about the sanctity of the females right to her body and decisions - all the time. I mean that and it's vital to be understood by both parties. However that said, why is it not considered in the same light that the man has a right to change his mind?

What I mean is that a man and women take a path. The details don't matter but they are always reading each others minds along the way and then something happens that makes the woman uncomfortable. It's a tough call but lets say the woman is on the up and up (that is not always the case) and in no way toying with the man. She simply has a change of heart or the man does something that makes him feel uncomfortable.

So far so good but everyone has to understand that the man has no way of knowing what the woman is really feeling and it needs to be explained, and explained gently - men have feelings too.

I don't know the details of "freaking out" but it does not sound like a recipy for reciprocical comunications of the best sort.

So now the female is hurt in the same way that the male was either hurt or inconvenienced by her rejecting him (which she has the unequvocal right to do - but) and now he is doing the same to her.

If he was a jerk and only wanted sex it is typical to be upset by his subsequent rejection. He was trying to trick her and now is looking for an easier target.

However if he was sincere about her and read the moment to be something more wholesome and something that both wanted - and then she feaked out. He has to be forgiven first of all for his response - it's not under the circumstances the moves of a jerk necessarily but he also has to be given the same rights as the woman - to change his mind.

So what is the problem then. Hurt feelings. If you can see how the female has the right to feel hurt and taken advantage of here - you should also be able to see how he likely is as well.

As in all cases - don't play games now designed to coddle your ego luciddreamer (I'm not saying you are - just that under the circumstances it's really easy to) and be upfront. Talk to him and explain clearly what happened in your mind and how you felt. To be honest if a girl did what you did and then explained it the way you did - I would think the world of her. After all we are all looking for true love (some of us don't seem to know it for like forever ) and you seem (to me) to be someone of merritt. Take a chance and talk to him. It may be worth the taking of the risk.

Good luck.

[andyg]

It sounds a lot to me like he has a very mild form of autism. I know a couple people like that who are incredibly intelligent but miss certain things that are natural for others. They are all really bad at understanding gray area and are more focused on specifics. He probably knew that a woman will feel respected if the guy will wait a month or two for sex but didn't know how to build up to it in the time in between. The two mildly autistic friends I have usually just sleep with girls they meet soon after meeting them. Other than the very subtle signs, you'd have no idea anything was wrong with them. They're very in touch with their own feelings but don't understand anyone elses... Sounds like your guy.

[andyg]

A woman has the right to stop at anytime she chooses especially if she is beginning to feel uncomfortable. Even if clothes are off, we have a right to say STOP and NO if we are not okay with some aspect of behavior. That's a woman's perogative and I would hate to see anyone try to take it away from women.

 

He also showed his true colors by dumping her. A guy who really cared and wanted to work things out would stay around, even through embarrassing or awkward moments. Who said life is perfect and always runs smoothly? He just didn't care.

 

You say a woman has the right to stop if she feels uncomfortable which is true... But so does the man, you chastise him for walking away from something uncomfortable but not her? It's OK to use the really cared argument for her discomfort but not his? NO, it's not OK. They both have a right to walk away from anything they so choose and they both excercised that right. At least he did it while explaining his feelings, a guy who didn't care about people would ignore her completely.

[luciddreamer]

Yes, he does have the right to walk away if he thinks it's irretrievable. I very well may have lost him in 30 unintended seconds. What pains me is him sort of extrapolating my "rejection" and saying (in his letter) it meant i thought we werent that close, though he emphasized _he_ thought we were, cared for me, --> he's wasting his time since i don't feel it too ---> he should move on. I believe he knows how strongly i feel about him, how close we were, somewhere under that hurt.

[i1dr]

Lucid ... don't give up hope. Talk to him again and see if there is a basis for moving forward with this.

[g1234567890h]

I'll take care of all of my responses right now.

 

I find the 2nd date a bit early to get tested and talk about sex and previous partners! You hardly know the person! I would only want to talk about sex with a boyfriend once I was sure I wanted to actually have sex with him, and that would not be the second date.

 

Also, asking about giving hugs/kisses would also be uncomfortable for me. I guess my expectation is that if I am dating someone, after the first few (maybe 3-5 or so), we would both be comfortable with what I would consider a minimal level of intimacy. Asking for a kiss all the time would ruin the experience for me!

 

However, I think it's great that that approach worked for both of you. I agree that talking about sex is important, and whichever way is both safe and effective for the couple is the way to go.

 

The way we see it, when we're "dating" we both have already decided we wanted to have sex with each other, which was after the first date, but we decided to take things slow. I actually asked her if she had any STDs the first time we talked on the phone and if she was on birth control. She had been recently tested and she was not on birth control but would be on it when we did start having sex.

 

She also has a history of guys making unwanted advances, so that's we always ask permission.

 

I completely agree. I have the talk about boundaries before we are in a private home together (even if just for drinks before dinner) and the talk about testing, etc a few months in or later.

 

We actually wound up in a private home together after the second date. That's when we talked about past sexual partners.

 

thanks for the post. i'm not sure i could be as disciplined and open in communication as you given my shyness but i definitely wish i had spoken up about sex the second or so time we made out (we had only kissed about 4 times before this happened... nothing more than french kissing and no clothes removed). it would have seemed premature and defensive, but look where i am now.

 

My girlfriend and I have very interesting sexual histories. She was a sex educator for a few years and I'm an erotic author. We both know sex very well and we're both very comfortable with our sexuality. Remember, she's 19 and I'm 20 so we've been having sex for a while but not that long. This is the first time we've both managed sex successfully in a relationship.

 

When someone asks you out on a date, you automatically know they want to have sex with you because it's a date and if you accept then you're saying that you're interested in having sex with them. So you both want to have sex but you don't know if you should. If we had handled it the way we had in the past, we would have had sex on the second date and ruined the relationship. This time we decided to hold off on kissing until the fourth date and the sex until the sixth date. We see it as taking things painfully slow but we're glad we waited or else we would have messed up the relationship.

 

Talking about sex early on is very important because you don't want to be disappointed later on.

[i1dr]

"you automatically know they want to have sex with you because it's a date and if you accept then you're saying that you're interested in having sex with them"

 

-- and you think you know something about sex? That must be the sensitive guy version? No further comment required.

[sophie274]

I quoted the parts of your posts that struck me the most.

 

Though I'm glad this approach worked for you and your girlfriend, it sounds like (and please tell me if I am interpreting this wrong) it was the first time you used this approach (talking about sex on the first and second date) with someone.

 

I have to say I honestly don't think this approach would work for many people (based on the posts I have read on this site and general experience). For me and for other women as well, agreeing to a date does NOT mean you want to have sex with your date. It means you want to go on a date! I only want to have sex with someone I love and am in love with, so that's the first thing I am looking to do when I go on a date. The sex comes later.

 

I agree with you that talking about sex is important. Talking about it very early on ... maybe. Since most people today have pre-marital sex, if I did not plan to have sex until marriage, I would definitely tell my date. (I have a friend, a guy, who does this). If you are someone who only wants to date men or women who will go to bed with you within a few days to a month, then I guess you could air that on the first date. However, I think that could put off a lot of women - even if they usually DO have sex early on - because of the expectation of progression it places on them. I think ending up having sex on the 3rd date and being told you must agree to have sex on the 3rd date are hugely different approaches. Having a guy call up and ask you out on a date and to get on BC and get tested for STDs in the same breath? Again, would probably feel way too "forward" for women.

 

I also want to add that being "comfortable with and knowledgeable about" sex does not equate to wanting to have it with someone you don't know very well. I would consider myself plenty comfortable with the idea of sex, and as knowledgeable as I want to be - but casual sex doesn't work for me!

 

My basic point is just to caution that this would definitely not work for everyone, and seems to me that it would not work for women - but that is just from my observations and conversations.

[i1dr]

Sophie ... thanks for putting it so much more eloquently than I about the same things that struck me. I couldn't get past the part about knowing that it's about sex when the date is agreed upon. That is what is wrong with much interaction nowadays. Men get this bizarre idea and so women have to be ever so carefull before they get themselves into some kid of situation they find unpleasant.

 

Going out on a date is simply and agreement to find out if you are a jerk or not, if there is anything in common or not, if there is a friendship or not ... and so on. There is nothing promised. There should be nothing of a promise imagined in the expectations of men (or women). Shame that so often it is.

[Cardinal]

that was my dumb attempt at humor. I have the utmost respect for him and accept my part in this. i tried to put him off but i agree it wasn't assertive enough. i never ever thought he would try to get inside me. i was thinking about it last night, part of my freak out is that i had unprotected sex w/my committed boyfriend and got a STI (temporary skin virus) which was very traumatic. i promised myself i'd never do that to anyone or let it happen to me again.

 

i wish he would agree to move on and learn from this, as the other poster said. he did not return my call last night.

 

I am thinking a couple of things.

 

In my experience, no matter how confident a woman is in general, for whatever reason, actual intercourse (inserting item A into slot B) is a huge deal. It has been with every girl I have slept with. I'd say most men, myself included, canoot fathom how big of a deal it can be. If you are messing around, taking off underwear, manually stimulating....if I weren't older and wiser, I'd see that as a clear indication that sex is the next step. Your guy may not have even thought about baseball. He may not have been interested in doing oral first or figuring out what bases meant (or however else you might choose to delineate the process).

 

What bothers me most about his actions is that he seems irresponsible. No protection??? No discussion about birth control ahead of time??? That is bad form no matter what.

 

The easiest way to avoid this ime is to mention what is NOT acceptable before you start fooling around. It takes all of a sentence or two to make yourself clear. You could just say, "I am confortable with manual or oral tonight but nothing more, okay? I am not ready to do more yet."

 

In some ways I can empathize with this guy. After screwing up so bad, I am not sure I would bother returning your phone call either. I know its not the right thing, but dealing with that sort of rejection can be tough even if he brought it on himself. I have a very different way of handling it than this fellow (I just talk about it ahead of time and don't bother with making advances until she stops throwing out negative vibes re: sex).

 

It doesn't help matters that many successful men use his very approach in the bedroom. A lot of times when you just do it and don't bother talking about it, the woman will go for it. Worked for a lot of my friends and both partners were happy with the result. The men were rewarded for their assertiveness (and always had the good sense to bring a rubber). Men like me however, won't take that sort of a risk.

[luciddreamer]

Yes thanks for your thoughts. I am willing to take responsibility for my part and I know it's different b/c of his social anxiety/extreme rejection thing. So I feel like all the normal rules don't quite apply. I don't mind taking more than my share of the blame--clearly he was ignorant, not trying to hurt/impregnate me or anything!--if it helps things. Thing is he is dealing by being angry and blowing it up into rejection of everything he is/we are.

 

He doesn't know about my past negative experience (mentioned earlier) w/o protection. Would that matter to him?

[sophie274]

If I were you, I wouldn't call and go through another explanation of why you had a "moment", and bring up your past experiences. I guess I feel like the ball is in his court - you have already explained and apologized once, right?

 

The most I would do would be to call him and ask him out. If he is unavailable/refuses/is not interested, never returns your call, or something of that sort, I would leave it at that.

 

I understand your disappointment - it seems like such a silly misunderstanding!

[g1234567890h]

This is to all of my responses:

 

People have a funny way of blowing my posts out of porportion. I never said that by going on a date you're agreeing to have sex with the other person, you're agreeing that it's a possibility and you could see yourself wanting it.

 

This is by far not a random representative sample, it's just what worked for us in the past. As I said, we both come from very interesting sexual histories and we wanted to take every precaution. We had the sex talk on the second date and made a plan. The plan worked and now we have a really good relationship. That's how we prevented any mix ups sexually, like what happened in this post.

[Batya33]

I completely disagree with this. First of all, having sex early on doesn't mean you necesarily are open about sexuality or healthy in a sexual way - the person could be doing that out of neediness, desperation, being drunk, sex addiction, etc - and being an "erotic author" doesn't make you any more knowledgeable about sex or self-aware than anyone else.

 

Obviously, if an adult asks me out on a date I assume he finds me attractive. No need to talk about having sex though or past partners, STDs, etc because it doesn't mean we are going to have sex, ever. I never have had sex with someone earlier than 2 months in of steady dating and usually 4 or 5 months. So I have dated many men several times each and not had sex with them or talked about it - no need to.

 

You're also assuming that all adults have premarital sex or presume they will have sex with the woman they are dating. Those are flawed presumptions.

 

If a man asked me on the first date details about my sexual history I would find it creepy and scary - and of course, presumptuous and arrogant.

 

I laughed when you said that the 6th date was "painfully slow" - to each his/her own, I guess.

[DN]

Moderator Note: Please keep posts specific to the OP's original question about her original question. The thread is starting to become a more general discussion that does not help her with her specific issue.

[Lily04]

Hey,

 

I've read most of the responses here.. I'd just like to have an update on the situation. Did you call your boyfriend? What did he say? To be honest, I didn't even know what the 'bases' were exactly, just googled it (well... there are so many interpretations -- "3rd base" could be hand up shirt or oral sex, etc.) but I think, in general, what this is conveying is that people have different notions of when the timing is 'right', when is 'too fast', etc. from past experiences and their own comfort levels. I think it's great to communicate when you feel comfortable, usually as soon as you start to get more intimate with each other... my first boyfriend in university, for instance, told me that he really wanted sex with me after we started being comfortable with each other and started 'exploring' sexually.... about a month or so after dating. I told him that I wasn't on birth control yet, so I wasn't OK with this... we were both virgins so no need to get tested. We never ended up having sex, but since we weren't using protection it was important to me that we had clear rules about things and that we both knew that we couldn't have sex (I suppose I could haev started using birth control pills if I wanted, but I knew he was leaving for another country for grad school soon and didn't want to take things too fast, so decided against it.)

 

Anyway...that really helped for me. However, since then, I have casually dated many guys (never had anything long-term with) and a lot of them wanted to get in my pants after the first date, or even just after meeting at a bar, etc. However, I wouldn't go home with a guy on the first date because that presumes that sex might happen....i.e. if you've been drinking with a guy and then he asks to take you home....saying "I only want to go to base 2" might not be that smart.... but it's up to you if you want to take that risk. I might have, if I were on birth control and ok with casual sex...I assume you're not that type of person though. But that's just to say that many people have different comfort levels and the 'bases' aren't all that clear in the heat of the moment, etc...it's good to have a discussion beforehand.

[wintersolstice]

Really...he's a loser. I bet I could totally use SSA as a way to manipulate other people....but seriously.....loser.

 

 

I agree 100% why would you want someone like this back?! Phd wanting loser if you ask me... blegh!

 

Why didn't you guys just do a couple shots and then makeout... that would have been better than screwing it up so bad due to anxiety?

[pacman]

I dont think that he was only focused on sex like some others have stated. If he was only looking for sex, he wouldnt have waited 2 months to make a move.

 

You said that you never talked about sex and never talked about past partners. Combined with the fact that he was social anxiety and a busy med student, its likely hes very inexperienced. I dont think most 30 year olds wait 2 months, but I understand it was more the akwardness and not the timing of it.

 

I think that it turned out so strange and he was so embarrassed because he is probably inexperienced and the way he sort of jumped right into it, NOT EVEN USING A CONDOM, he really doesnt seem like he knows what hes doing or is very confident in the bedroom.

 

You know the situation better than we do. Do you think it was more inexperience and anxiousness on his part or was it more creepy aggressiveness leaning towards someone capable of rape?

[wintersolstice]

I don't think he was only interested in sex either, but he is obviously a high strung & neurotic nightmare (or so it seems.) It's better he freaked out on your before having sex than afterwards (you would feel like he was an even bigger mistake in that case.)

 

I would blow him off (stop with the begging) then he'll prolly come back to you.. if not and you really want him I would wait a good amount of time (to fully consider this and give him some "alone time" to miss you) and then give him a call... he sounds like a LOSER tho.

[luciddreamer]

 

I think that it turned out so strange and he was so embarrassed because he is probably inexperienced and the way he sort of jumped right into it, NOT EVEN USING A CONDOM, he really doesnt seem like he knows what hes doing or is very confident in the bedroom.

 

You know the situation better than we do. Do you think it was more inexperience and anxiousness on his part or was it more creepy aggressiveness leaning towards someone capable of rape?

 

Hi, you're probably right. Inexperience. To my knowledge he, at 31, has had 2 serious gf's. One was from high school 7 yrs til college, then the other was when he was in his master's program with a girl 7 years younger. I'd wager that relationship skills were not really built up to the adult degree. (not that I don't have my own issues w/communication, as illustrated). I honestly don't think he's had to have "the talk" too many times. And probably hasn't dated/slept with anyone in a while.

 

To update, we talked for a couple hours Friday and we both admitted things got screwy and we both had a part in that. We didn't get to 'the talk' or my asking him to get tested to alleviate my anxiety... I was trying to just get us back to the friends/talking stage, but if things get back on track I will. I'm not sure if things will be irrevocably screwed up by this, but either way I'm glad we talked. It was really uncomfortable not having even spoken/him avoiding me in his wounded pride/whatever situation.

 

thanks for everyone's advice.