"Men are never too shy to approach the girl they really like"

[Batya33]

Well put. Just because something is the way it is does not necessarily mean that that something HAS to be the way it is. Many social structures/practices have an inherent status-quo of power that maintains and sustains them; which group benefits the most, power-wise, when considering gender of initiatior of dating relationships? The gender imbalance that we find in contemporary society has vested interests; thus, the 'traditional' idea that the man initiate courtship precedings is nothing but a negative reinforcement device that keeps those who stand to lose in power.

 

Fight the system. Conformity = self. Imagination = selflessness.

 

I agree - just because it is that way doesn't mean it "has" to be that way and there were many times I wished I could make that call after a first or second date but I didn't because I knew the man might be turned off by my taking his role (and yes I did do it anyway a few times - never was effective even when it led to one more date - it was one of those acceptances with mediocre interest at best).

 

However, I've always been more interested in being in a happy, healthy long term relationship than fighting this particular "system." There are other issues that I choose to fight - homelessness, cancer, inferior treatment of people with disabilities, etc. In most cases it would be self-centered of me to "fight" the system by refusing to let the man do most of the initiating, planning and calling in the first few months because in my experience they definitely enjoy that role and they enjoy my role as well.

[Batya33]

And because you, as one person of the 6 billion people on this planet, haven't seen it happen, it must not be possible. That's a pretty small minded approach to the world, you limit yourself by your lack of imagination. The asker/planner having internal sex organs doesn't dictate the outcome of the relationship.

 

In my experience it does and those of hundreds of people I know. I think it definitely could be possible - never said it wasn't - I limited my opinion to what I have seen and experienced and I recognize those limitations. Interesting that you haven't mentioned knowing of any happy, healthy, long term relationships where the woman did most of the initiating, asking and planning in the first few months of the relationship.

 

I prefer to use my imagination elsewhere - such as to help those in need (homeless, etc) - this "issue" just does not seem as pressing at least to me. I am sure there are many feminists - male and female - who wish to dedicate their time and energy to changing these traditional roles that seem to be unfair (I can see where others - men and women - might find them unfair).

[CarnelianButterfly]

In my experience it does and those of hundreds of people I know. I think it definitely could be possible - never said it wasn't - I limited my opinion to what I have seen and experienced and I recognize those limitations. Interesting that you haven't mentioned knowing of any happy, healthy, long term relationships where the woman did most of the initiating, asking and planning in the first few months of the relationship.

 

I prefer to use my imagination elsewhere - such as to help those in need (homeless, etc) - this "issue" just does not seem as pressing at least to me. I am sure there are many feminists - male and female - who wish to dedicate their time and energy to changing these traditional roles that seem to be unfair (I can see where others - men and women - might find them unfair).

Ok, you want examples:

• My Ukrainian friend who knew a guy nearly 2 years before they dated, he always liked her but she did all the asking and dates. They are engaged and have been together 4 years now.
  
• My Texan friend, her hubby was her friend for nearly 18 years, she said "hey, lets move in and get a dog". I don't know how long they lived together, at least 3 years, before they got married, nearly 2 years ago
  
• I have also initiated a relationship that has been going pretty darn well.

If you need more, try looking for women and men that aren't so concerned with the standards society has had in the past. The people I know don't waste their time on petty issues revolving around who does what corresponding to which gender role. Things get done just the same independent of the sex of the person doing them.

 

Its not self-centered to fight a mind set that is responsible for repressing women. You discount the importance of a fight that allows you the right to decide what you want to do. Women think there is no reason to make it an issue because they've become complacent in what other women before them have fought to change.

[TheRedQueen]

Oy, this is such rubbish...

 

*I* approached the guy that I am currently seeing, furthermore, *I* am the one who more or less pursued him. Why? That's just my style. And believe it or not, the guy that I pursued...that's just his style too. He has admitted to me that he *never* pursues girls, seeing it as a waste of time and effort when he can just lay back and wait for a cool girl, me, to approach him willingly.

[Batya33]

I don't feel repressed in the least because I don't get involved in those types of situations. I always have the right to decide what I want to do - I can date a person or not - there's no law or entitlement to having a date, a boyfriend or a spouse.

 

Even though I allow the guy to do most of the planning, calling and initiating in the first few months of dating I have my own role as well - and it is most certainly not a passive one.

 

That I choose to focus my energies in helping other groups (homeless, mentally ill, cancer patients, immigrants) is my perogative - I know that I have precious little time to devote to any cause and since I do not believe women or men are repressed when it comes to dating arrangements that is not where I choose to put my energies. We all have to pick our battles if we want to make a difference otherwise we end up with our focus scattered in too many directions with little, if any of a difference. Just my humble opinion.

 

Thank you for your examples! I have far far more examples of women who are cynical because they did most of the planning, initiating and calling in the first few months, the man rejected them (because he was never that interested in the first place) and then they went on to generalize that all men are jerks. Lovely. So, when I look at the "odds" I would prefer to place my bets with the majority rather than the minority of examples you provided. The one about living together was interesting but not relevant to my point - which is not that a woman shouldn't initiate once or twice but just that she should not do most of the initiating in the first few months. Asking a man if he wanted to live with me is one example of initiation - not a constant way of approaching.

 

I would not want to date a guy who wanted to sit back and be "lazy" while I "pursued" - because when a man does most of the initiating, calling and planning I am far from lazy or passive - rather, I take an active role in helping him make the plan once he suggests getting together, I look around for free or inexpensive interesting activities to do so that once he calls and asks if I am free I am ready with suggestions if he wants them, I do things like help with his resume if he needs that, help him network if he asks for my input and I am just generally an active supporter - I learn about his type of work, the hobbies/activities he likes so that I can be an active participant in what we discuss and what we do for fun.

 

I also would not want the man to do all the initiating - just most of it and just for the first few months or until we are a steady "item."

 

For those reasons I do not see this as a "woman being repressed" situation - at least not the way that it works for me.

[Dako]

My mother whistled at my father in the park and asked him out.

He left town that night and they fell in love through letters for most of WWII, like many couples did. Scoff if you please.

When the war ended they married. I don't recall my dad ever making a phone call, but Mom never complained.

They were nuts about each other until he died, and at 89, Mom still misses him.

 

When I met my ex, I was ill-behaved in many ways, so I never asked her out, since she was a Sunday school teacher who deserved better. She was a good friend who asked me out first. I gave up my bad habits and she gave up church. Things went well for the first 24 years, then she opted out. Maybe I shoulda asked her out?

 

I guess those are the two marriages I've seen that matter most.

All the rest leave only minor impressions.

[TheRedQueen]

Even though I allow the guy to do most of the planning, calling and initiating in the first few months of dating I have my own role as well - and it is most certainly not a passive one.

I'm sorry, how exactly is that not a passive role?

[Dako]

Because she allows it?

[Batya33]

Ok, you want examples:

LIST]If you need more, try looking for women and men that aren't so concerned with the standards society has had in the past. The people I know don't waste their time on petty issues revolving around who does what corresponding to which gender role. Things get done just the same independent of the sex of the person doing them.

 

 

Hmmm- well I am just referring to the first few months of dating - nothing more, nothing less. As far as equality for people in other environments - workplace, housing, access to healthcare, etc that is not what I am discussing here and my comments should not be taken as applying to anything other than the first few months of courtship.

 

Thank you for sharing your opinion on those people who believe in traditional values and standards. I disagree that all gender roles are "petty" - I believe for example that all else being equal, it is better for the mother to stay home with an infant if at all possible, more important for women to have adequate maternity leave than it is for men to have adequate paternity leave, and I am comfortable with the different gender roles in my religion and do not find them in the least bit petty.

 

Obviously you are entitled to be impressed with those who believe all gender roles are "petty" issues and a waste of time. I for one find it a waste of time to judge people for believing in certain traditional values but that's just me.

[CarnelianButterfly]

I have far far more examples of women who are cynical because they did most of the planning, initiating and calling in the first few months, the man rejected them (because he was never that interested in the first place) and then they went on to generalize that all men are jerks. Lovely. So, when I look at the "odds" I would prefer to place my bets with the majority rather than the minority of examples you provided. The one about living together was interesting but not relevant to my point - which is not that a woman shouldn't initiate once or twice but just that she should not do most of the initiating in the first few months. Asking a man if he wanted to live with me is one example of initiation - not a constant way of approaching.

 

So you want to make men deal with all the rejection? It makes men just as cynical to deal with always being required to do the work.

 

Are you afraid of rejection?

[Batya33]

So you want to make men deal with all the rejection? It makes men just as cynical to deal with always being required to do the work.

 

Are you afraid of rejection?

 

I'm not afraid of rejection in the least - I mean yes it can be stressful to ask a man out but it is stress that I can handle and have handled. As I have posted many times before, I have asked out men several times and would be happy to continue that practice if it was effective to find a lasting relationship. It never has been and I have never seen it be particularly effective when done by other women (effective to find a lasting relationship - it is effective or can be if all you want is a date or a fling).

 

Now I have a boyfriend but if I were single I would continue to take the approach of letting the man be the one to ask me out for a first date. I have asked men if they are interested in meeting in person when we have first made contact through an on line site- to me that is not the same as asking for a date because they have never met me before. After we meet I let him ask me out for our first "real" date.

 

The men I have dated and been involved with do not seem cynical in the least about their role in asking a woman out for a first date - most often they seem neutral on the subject or simply take it as a "given" - and that is what I have heard also from men who are platonic friends of mine.

 

My boyfriend for example says he is proud that he "pursued" me (didn't require much of a chase, lol). That might be because I never expect the man to "chase" me or do all the work - if he asks me for a date and I am interested, I express my enthusiasm and appreciation, thank him for making the plan and thank him after the date too, with sincerity of course. I return calls promptly when the purpose of the call is to ask me out on a date.

 

On the other hand, if I have gone out with a man once and he calls or e-mails a few times without making plans or asking for a second date - or suggesting interest in seeing me again, at some point I will return his calls a bit less promptly because I prefer to focus on men who are sincerely interested in dating me as opposed to just chatting on the phone without a specific plan to see each other again. If the man has a specific question to ask me about business or advice I will return the call promptly but if it is just to chat at some point I don't have time for a man who won't step up to the plate and make another plan with me.

 

Obviously this is all written without you knowing me or being there when I interact with men - you cannot see how I show interest, enthusiasm or appreciation nor do you have to believe what I am saying. What matters to me is that I know that I treat men very well, with respect and with appreciation and for the last 25 years of dating and being in relationships the huge majority of the time the men I have dated, been involved with, etc have told me that they feel that I treat them very well in every way.

[Kevin T]

I think there are two ways a GUY can look at it:

 

1. All of the responsiblity is on me to ask her out and bear the brunt of rejection. This is tough for some guys, but it is a popular belief.

 

2. This one is probably less favourable though. If they do not espouse the second belief, and don't get anywhere with women, then they will start to believe that they THEMSELVES (rather than their behaviour with women) is the problem. Hence, it becomes an INTERNAL, rather than external problem. Behaviour can be changed, but if someone is unattractive or uninteresting, etc., there is little one can do to change that if that is how they are consistently viewed.

 

So, I think it's safer for the guy (at least the unsuccessful one with women) to believe the first view, rather than the second. If they start expecting women to do all the work and no one approaches them, well... then what you get is me. Someone who doesn't believe in himself, is alone and unpopular with "da" ladiez.

 

At least with the first view, the guy believes he has control over the situation, rather than just having to accept "reality" for all its harshness.

 

Of course, a guy who has women hitting on him 24/7 will not have to worry about either problem.

[TheDMan05]

When a guy is Socially Anxious, it isn't the fear of rejection that is foremost in his mind, it is the fear of embarrassment/humiliation.

 

When the guy sees the girl that he really likes he thinks, 'If I go over and talk to her everyone will be watching me' and 'I won't be able to think of anything to say, there'll be awkward silences. Even if I do manage to say something it won't make any sense and everyone will laugh at me for my social inadequacies.'

 

He will leave and reflect on what happened. He will believe that the presumptions he made (many of them being false) saved him from the humiliation that awaited him, thus reinforcing them in his mind and making it less likely that he would approach a girl he likes in the future.

 

 

The guy in this scenario was too shy to approach the girl he really liked, he wasn't 'emotionally unavailable' he was just afraid that he would make a complete a*** of himself.

[Batya33]

That is one definition of emotionally unavailable. He has let his emotions of fear take priority over approaching the woman. Even if the woman accepted the date I suppose that strong a fear would overtake him in asking for future dates. If so, he is not available to be in a relationship, which requires him asking her for dates at least half the time.

[corvidae]

How is that being emotionally unavailable? It's got nothing to do with making priorities and everything to do with feeling emotions, emotions which can inhibit certain behaviours. Remember that every man is an individual and he may have had bad experiences in the past. I have given up asking women out because I tried it a bunch of times and kept getting rejected. I feel I'm a good person and deserve better than that. Because of this choice I may now be single for the rest of my life because women are too 'emotionally unavailable' (by your definition) to in any way engage with me on a level other than friendship.

[Batya33]

What I mean is that if you are not emotionally able to have a relationship - whether that is because of fears or bad experiences, etc then you are emotionally unavailable to have a romantic relationship at that time.

 

I am sorry you have given up. I asked out several guys and while I was not rejected each time it never led to more than one date or one additional date (if he asked for the first two) - but of course I didn't give up on "men" just because those particular men weren't into me. And, I've been rejected by many men otherwise and I didn't give up -same reason.

 

It also depends of course on the type of women you are attracted to - it could be that they are not a good fit for you or that you are attracted to unavailable women (whether they are dating others or emotionally unavailable). You sound like a guy I knew back in H.S. - I urged him just to take the risk and ask someone out - so he did - the prettiest girl in the class who was also working as a model. Of course she said no. Proved nothing about his desirability but he used it as "evidence" that he wasn't datable.

 

It's up to you whether you want to date or not but I hope that you choose not to have a pity party and, if you choose not to date it is from a feeling of postive energy and empowerment, not from a victim type feeling.

[DN]

I simply don't buy the idea that someone who is too shy to ask for a date is not emotionally ready for a relationship.

 

For instance - suppose the reason he is shy is that he is scared of rejection - a common reason for shyness. If a woman asks him out he has no need for fear of rejection because if she wanted to reject him she would not have asked him out - unless she were some sort of sadist.

 

Another reason for shyness is the fear of being uninteresting - again, if the other person initiates and pursues for a while that fear will be proven groundless, at least for this relationship.

 

If the shy person were to follow your reasoning they would refuse the advances because they had been needlessly convinced that they were emotionally unready and the one does not necessarily follow the other.

 

In general, it is wise not too make, or follow, rules about dating. They are either invalid or there are too many exceptions that render them unsafe - even as guidelines.

[Batya33]

I am not making hard and fast rules just giving my opinion. If someone was that painfully shy that he could not ask a woman out for coffee who was showing him interest, I am not so sure that if the woman asked him out then "ding!" he would "know" she was interested and be able to be comfortable in a dating context. He probably would continue to fear rejection (analogous to when a man asks me out, I continue to feel insecure sometimes as in "did he really mean it?" "will he ask me out again?" etc). If the shyness is that deep seated I doubt she asking him out for coffee would be the cure-all. But maybe I'm wrong. . .

 

Here's the thing. If a friend came to me and said "I am really attracted to shy men - still waters run deep and all that" (or something like that) and if she knew this man to be shy - I would say - sure, go for it - ask him out and see what happens. I would also say- after that first date, ball is in his court - I wouldn't continue to ask him out after that but would show sincere interest.

 

My prediction would be that most likely he was not "that" interested in her in the first place but obviously I could be wrong.

 

As long as the woman asking the man out is willing to accept that he might not be bowled over by her (otherwise, according to my opinion, he likely would overcome his shyness enough to ask her out) then sure why not.

 

And the woman has to be prepared for the risk that by asking the man out, she might turn him off - men that I know and have known change their opinion about a woman if they feel she is being too forward and/or they feel odd or strange about the woman taking their traditional role.

[DN]

If someone was that painfully shy that he could not ask a woman out for coffee who was showing him interest, I am not so sure that if the woman asked him out then "ding!" he would "know" she was interested and be able to be comfortable in a dating context. He probably would continue to fear rejection (analogous to when a man asks me out, I continue to feel insecure sometimes as in "did he really mean it?" "will he ask me out again?" etc). If the shyness is that deep seated I doubt she asking him out for coffee would be the cure-all. But maybe I'm wrong. . .

 

This is the danger of predicting the behaviour of people - in too many cases the prediction is simply wrong. Often that does not matter but where it may inhibit the chances of someone having a good relationship it might be better to refrain.

[Batya33]

This is the danger of predicting the behaviour of people - in too many cases the prediction is simply wrong. Often that does not matter but where it may inhibit the chances of someone having a good relationship it might be better to refrain.

 

In my experiences - time and again - if a man is truly interested in a woman he will ask her out for a proper date. My job is all about predicting behavior - not hard and fast - but making strategic decisions based on what is likely to happen. If I am asked what I think (and I often am, because my friends and acquaintances have found my advice and predictions dead on most of the time when it comes to dating) I won't try to discourage but I will say "my guess is that he is not "that" interested but I could be wrong - so go for it."

 

And obviously my opinion is limited to the hundreds of men I know and have known - and most of them are in the late 20s to 40 age group, live in a large U.S. city, have at least a college education, work in a white collar industry or profession, typically date other professionals from big cities, etc. Who knows - perhaps that makes a difference in dating or relationship "norms." This is why I rarely comment on teenage dating practices - just not familiar enough with that age group.

[DN]

In my experiences - time and again - if a man is truly interested in a woman he will ask her out for a proper date.

This is self-fulfilling. If he asks you can say "It proves my point - he was interested after all'. If he does not you will say "it proves my point - he was not interested enough." It may convince a jury who is not paying attention but it doesn't convince me.

 

The problem with dating 'norms' is that they may or may not be useful in a general sense - but they are fairly useless when applied to specific individuals.

[Batya33]

Nope- not my argument. I am talking about the instances where the man doesn't ask but instead asks someone else or tells or expresses to the woman that he is not interested in anything beyond friendship. I am not talking about the examples where the man doesn't ask the woman for the date - then the reasons can be lack of interest or not available (either emotionally or otherwise, or yes "too shy").

 

For example, a friend of mine had a major crush on a co-worker -another teacher. She is 40 and he is 30. He flirted with her incessantly, was touchy feely, they emailed with innuendoes - this went on for weeks. All of her friends - she probably told about 20 people - all said "oh he is definitely interested, it's just a matter of time before he asks you out." I was the lone person who said "he is definitely attracted to you but I am not sure he wants to date you or be in a relationship with you - if it is because of the work situation by now he would have told you since he is so open with you about everything else." I advised her to back off, to protect her heart, to keep her expectations low. She insisted it was just a matter of time.

 

A month after that - after lots more continuous flirting - she found out he had a girlfriend the whole time - when she confronted him he told her that his personal life was none of her business. Luckily nothing happened between my friend and him. She's now told me five times that she is always going to take my opinion seriously from now on when it comes to this subject because I was the only one with the contrary opinion and the only one who was right.

 

I have many more examples like that - in this case the man wasn't shy but I am talking about where Mr. "Shy" all of a sudden is dating someone else seriously, hooks up with someone else at a party or responds to an invitation with a "no" or a lukewarm "maybe" and never follows up. Same with "oh he's just scared of his strong feelings."

 

So - no - just because there is no invitation for a date I do not assume lack of interest.

[Kevin T]

That is one definition of emotionally unavailable. He has let his emotions of fear take priority over approaching the woman. Even if the woman accepted the date I suppose that strong a fear would overtake him in asking for future dates. If so, he is not available to be in a relationship, which requires him asking her for dates at least half the time.

 

So, you expect perfection in a mate, before they even ask you out?

 

And on what grounds can you honestly say such a thing anyway?

 

You can't win with some of you women:

 

We're either:

 

A) Emotionally unavailable because we're shy

 

or

 

B) A creep for hitting on you

 

And people think it's easy being a guy. Ha.

[Batya33]

So, you expect perfection in a mate, before they even ask you out?

 

And on what grounds can you honestly say such a thing anyway?

 

You can't win with some of you women:

 

We're either:

 

A) Emotionally unavailable because we're shy

 

or

 

B) A creep for hitting on you

 

And people think it's easy being a guy. Ha.

 

 

Nope - what I do expect is that if a guy is interested in dating me that he ask me out for a date in a respectful way "would you like to have coffee sometime" "may I take you to dinner sometime" or "there's a great band playing at ___ on Tuesday - are you interested?"

 

I don't think that's asking for much - I've done the exact same thing when I've asked out men and I am far from perfect. I would never think a man is a creep or "hitting on me" by asking me out on a date. I would think he was a creep if he were asking me out and he was married or attached or if he used disrespectful or offensive language. In fact I never mentioned and never would anything close to your "either or" that you posted. That's your view - has nothing to do with mine.

 

I do not think a man is emotionally unavailable because he is shy. I do think that if a man is so shy that he can't ask me out for coffee even where I show sincere interest and enthusiasm I have to wonder if he is emotionally able to handle being in a relationship where he has to put in his share of the effort in having conversations with me, making suggestions for activities - etc. I make it clear when I am interested - in addition to being friendly and warm, I bring up activities I like to do, movies I am interested in seeing, how much I love walking around the city, etc.

 

Please don't put words in my mouth - I can see you might have had bad experiences with dating but that is not my fault and twisting my words isn't productive in my humble opinion.

 

It's not easy being a woman either when it comes to dating but I don't complain about it because my efforts are worth it overall based on the positive relationships and dating experiences I have had.

[Kevin T]

Ah, apologies.

 

I did not know you had also been asking out men. That is different.

 

I thought you were the type that just sat around waiting for men to do all the work.

 

And in all fairness, you may be right... well, not entirely. It's too much a generalization, but there is some truth to whatyou said. Even with women where I got wonderfully shot down (sorry, I'm somewhat sarcastic), I did take the chance by asking them out for coffee, or what have you. They just clearly were uninterested. (But that isn't your fault, so thanks for calling me on it.)