Strong fantasies of disappearing every time I feel too vulnerable

[NighttimeNightmare]

2 hours ago, catfeeder said:

Yes! Suffocation is a thing. With everyone who gets too tangled up with someone. That’s less a mental problem than a behavioral one. Your focus needs some liberation. Go make some other friends, and you’ll be surprised how quickly all this navel gazing will change.

I have these same issue every time I get close to someone. Ignoring it isn’t the answer. I came here to try to gain some tools, not to further avoid things I’d like to get over. The only time these issues aren’t present in my life is when I keep all relationships at arms lengths. I’m not interested in doing that anymore 

 

With this woman, I have a platform to work out some of my issues, and I’m taking advantage of that 

[NighttimeNightmare]

12 hours ago, Kwothe28 said:

But, she is right. You are a narcissist(albeit somebody who is a treated one). This all stems from that issue. That is why your instinct is to stonewall and tells you to go away.

Nevertheless, I don't think it’s important when it’s not progressing anyway. I maybe skipped some chapter so you may correct me on this. But you two are still only friends? Sharing feelings is OK between friends. But in a situation where you have feelings for her and want to be with her and you did not convey that yet, it’s kind of a small issue that you don't share some stuff with her when there are way bigger issues there. At some point this needs to break “status quo” and either make it or break it. And you both seem to be more interested in keeping that status quo then for this to go somewhere.

Yes, we’ve progressed in the romantic department.  And to be honest, even if we had not, I’d still be trying to figure out how to overcome my dysfunctional tendencies so that I could have have functional relationships 

 

[boltnrun]

I have anxiety and OCD. One thing my therapist strongly recommended was deliberately putting myself into uncomfortable situations. And one way I deal with it is by literally talking to myself inside my head about "what's the worst that could happen?" So if you allow this woman to be aware of your thoughts and feelings, what could happen that's so unbearable? What disaster could happen that would render you unable to function? I imagine the worst possible scenario and then I think about how I would deal with it. Or, I allow myself to understand that I can't control every situation or outcome and that's OK too. 

And I'm still alive! Despite doing things that make me uncomfortable or that set off my anxiety or OCD. 

[NighttimeNightmare]

18 hours ago, boltnrun said:

Have you two decided to be in a committed romantic relationship?

We’ve become romantic but we haven’t had a talk about exclusivity

I know that she’s been asked out twice recently, and she declined 
 

 

 

[NighttimeNightmare]

1 minute ago, boltnrun said:

One thing my therapist strongly recommended was deliberately putting myself into uncomfortable situations.

This is exactly what im doing. Maybe it’s how I communicate, maybe it’s not clear enough for some people, but a lot of the responses here have me scratching my head. Like no, im not going to avoid and run from yet another situation that in all honesty has proven to be a great platform for me to heal some of my stuff. I’m not being abusive to her, im being thoughtful, aware, considerate, and she’s been generous with my faults and her willingness to be patient with some of the stuff. I offer the same to her with her things. 

 

3 minutes ago, boltnrun said:

And one way I deal with it is by literally talking to myself inside my head about "what's the worst that could happen?" So if you allow this woman to be aware of your thoughts and feelings, what could happen that's so unbearable?

Have you made some good progress? 
 

it feels unbearable to me if I feel like I’m being judged. I don’t even necessarily think she’s judging me in a toxic way, but it’s almost like this “how dare you” feeling that I’ve always struggled with, which I’m aware is the anti-thesis of vulnerability. 

5 minutes ago, boltnrun said:

I imagine the worst possible scenario and then I think about how I would deal with it. Or, I allow myself to understand that I can't control every situation or outcome and that's OK too. 

What scares me for myself is the rage that follows.  I have done this thought process before, and I suppose I’ll integrate it again, and come up with ideas that don’t have “rage” as a coping mechanism. Which honestly is partly why I made this post, I thought a few people may share stories of what the behavior looks like for healthier people who don’t resort to running away, rage, etc etc and etc. then I could fill my head and thoughts with those things and begin practicing in real time

 

Thank you for your thoughtful response 🙂 it was helpful 

[boltnrun]

27 minutes ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

Have you made some good progress? 

Yes, I really have. A few years ago I was literally on my couch in the fetal position afraid to go outside. I gave up a really good career because I was afraid. I also had an irrational fear of bridges and now I drive over them like it's nothing. I also didn't want to appear "weird" and I would say that's still an ongoing effort. I know some things I do ARE in fact weird, but that also helps me because I'm too embarrassed to act weird in front of others. I'm the one who has a Kleenex in their hand because I don't like touching door handles or ATM machine buttons or those buttons you push to cross the street. And I HATE touching cash because it's so filthy. But little by little I'm working on those things. And I'm way better than I was three years ago.

I do sometimes become infuriated when something doesn't work right, but again I don't throw a fit in front of others because I'm too embarrassed. I have to just stop, step back and when I'm calmer I can try again. But I don't give up because I still want things and if I give up I won't get them.

Maybe instead of having rage as your go to when you feel pressured or too emotionally open you can imagine yourself being strong and confident and able to manage whatever it is that causes that feeling. I remind myself that my body and my brain belong to me, so I have the right to decide how they operate. 

[kim42]

1 hour ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

What makes you think I don’t? This post? This post is a microscope to a small fragment of my life. I’m here to talk about this particular relationship, because it outlines interpersonal patterns I have that I’d like to address.  However, it’s not the only form of contact in my life. I host gatherings twice a month and am active in several meetup groups.  Lol. 

Ok thanks for clarifying.

Can you please explain how you progressed romantically with her? If you feel like it, of course.

[rainbowsandroses]

21 hours ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

I have a history of abusing women and stonewalling them.

I haven't read all your threads/posts so I missed this^.  All I knew was you were diagnosed with narcissism but receiving treatment and healing.

But re being a former abuser, I REALLY appreciate your sharing this...

I wish you had been around on the thread I created about my boyfriend who was a former abuser also, but sought treatment and now counsels other abusers.  I never saw or experienced any evidence that he had been an abuser, like I said he's doing good work now helping others.

Anyway, the general advice was to end the relationship, once an abuser, always an abuser?   

But that advice was also, in part, due to just having learned about an abusive situation (Gabby Petito) who was murdered by her abusive boyfriend and it freaked me out.

Anyway, if I may ask, what treatment have sought for this?  Are you healed now?

I hesitate to respond to your issues with this woman as I think there is A LOT to unravel.  And tbh I don't think I have the insight or knowledge to truly understand what's happening to respond in a way that would benefit you.

I just wanted to say that I am happy to hear you have worked through (or working through) your previous issues of abuse and stonewalling and your other narcissistic tendencies.

I know for me I have commitment issues (which I am finally coming to terms with) and it's a long process to extricate those long standing fears and anxieties.

One thing I did want to mention was when she told you this:

21 hours ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

Recently she told me my coming across as controlling and a bit narcissistic and that it’s a hard boundary for her.  I said ok, please let me know when I’m behaving like that and I’ll nip it in the bud. 

Now for me, MY very first thought and response (instinctively) would have been to ask "in what way am I coming across as controlling and narcissistic, can you give me an example?

Or did you already know you were coming off that way?  And you simply acknowledged something you already knew?

 

 

[NighttimeNightmare]

50 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

But re being a former abuser, I REALLY appreciate your sharing this...

Just to clarify, I’ve never put my hands on anyone, ever. But it was explained to me in therapy that stonewalling is abusive, laughing when people are crying is abusive, just generally being very dismissive when it came to emotions is being abusive. It was always my way or the highway, so…. But I wasn’t a name-caller, or a hitter, or etc. etc.  I’m moreso unfeeling, cold, callous.  Lack of empathy. Extreme lack of empathy. 
 

but since my diagnosis I have gained empathy. That’s sort of why I’m posting this anyhow, I have empathy, I’m caring, I’m trying to make sure I’m handling things in better ways. So this post wasn’t really to pick my issues apart, I was really just asking what it looked and felt like from healthier people, you know? 
 

52 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

Now for me, MY very first thought and response (instinctively) would have been to ask "in what way am I coming across as controlling and narcissistic, can you give me an example?

Yes of course I said that, that was the first question I asked.  She explained it to me and that’s when I said essentially “I’ve never realized it was coming across like that to you and I can’t seem to grasp, quite yet, when it’s ok to do it and when it’s not.. so could you please just let me know when I am doing it; that way I can learn the situations in which you’ve got an issue with the behavior and I’ll nip that in the bud” 

the situation in question wasn’t something inherently wrong, but it’s something she personally doesn’t like 

[Kwothe28]

1 hour ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

Yes, we’ve progressed in the romantic department.  And to be honest, even if we had not, I’d still be trying to figure out how to overcome my dysfunctional tendencies so that I could have have functional relationships 

 

Ah OK, nice to know. That is a good news.

Also I think your dysfunctional tendencies are for you to work on. Like those people who come here because of jealous issues because their last SO cheated them and then they transfer that on next partner even though they maybe are not cheaters. What I am trying to say is that maybe you should have figured that out before all this so you could have a functioning relationship. For example, why no exclusivity? Usually people hold on to that at the beginning because they dont know each other. After two very good friends do relationship, well, its a relationship. Because the starting point isnt really the same. You already know the other person very much. Is it because she is not sure or you just dont even mention stuff like that? Those are some stuff you should have already figured out if you worked to already be the person you want to be.

What I am saying is, you are asking a magical stick that would solve your issues. We or anybody else for that matter, cant offer you that. You wont become more opened and affectionate over night. You met somebody that you think its good for you and that is great. But those issues you mentioned cant be solved that easily and required sometimes years of working on yourself. You maybe have years with that person, we dont know that. But your issue where you want to run away wont just disappear. Maybe ever. Its just maybe something you would have to live with. But you can still do some stuff. Maybe start with some smaller stuff. Take an interest in what she has to say if you dont do that. Be a little more opened about your feelings as well. She feels your narcissistic side because, well, its probably still there albeit the treatment. For example, if she tells you something do you often redirect it on yourself or something you want to talk? You may have learned empathy now. But that doesnt mean that you still dont do some stuff from before instinctively. 

[NighttimeNightmare]

12 minutes ago, Kwothe28 said:

What I am trying to say is that maybe you should have figured that out before all this so you could have a functioning relationship.

People’s worse traits come out in relationships. You have to have some semblance of a relationship to “practice” healthier tactics.  That’s not even me saying that, that’s come from the mouths of some really prominent psychotherapists, and I agree with it. I’ve been working on myself, actively, for a long time. As everyone should. But this new dynamic has brought to the surface some things I can refine. It’s not like I’ve been off p*sing about and now suddenly I want some sort of magic elixir.  this one issue popped up, and I’m addressing it so that I can have healthy attachments. 

[Andrina]

If you're saying this has happened 5 times in a year, I'm sure it's not that you're feeling the desire to escape every second of every day between say the 3rd incident and the 4th incident. I'm assuming you feel bad a day or two and then things fade and after another day or two, you've returned to an even and happy baseline.

That's the way I look at any argument my husband and I have. I know we each won't feel the best about each other for a day or two, but I like having the faith of knowing "This too shall pass" and feel comforted by that. It's unknown which of us will offer the olive branch, and I like the fact it's never just one of us. That varies.

I'd say to feel proud that each time you've felt the need to escape, you didn't. And then you were able to get past it and have good days in between. Maybe now that you've overcome the physical tendency to run, you can try faking it until you make it with overcoming the mental tendency to fantasize about leaving it all behind. 

How about when that happens, ask her to sit close on the couch and caress her hair? Watch a comedy together so you can laugh, which might drive away the anger? Keep trying new behaviors and activities, using them as tools until you see which tool works the best.

[Wiseman2]

55 minutes ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

The situation in question wasn’t something inherently wrong, but it’s something she personally doesn’t like 

This seems more like getting to know her and her likes and dislikes. Not like getting to know yourself. That seems like a regular part of any relationship.

However if you ever part ways all you'll have is what her specific idiosyncracies are more so than any self awareness. 

Relationships shouldn't bring out the worst in people, if they do it's possible you're with the wrong person.

It's also understandable that constantly "working on yourself" is exhausting as compared to living life and being who you are. 

[rainbowsandroses]

47 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

Relationships shouldn't bring out the worst in people, if they do it's possible you're with the wrong person.

Wise, we have had our disagreements lately but I wholeheartedly agree with this^^.  I have yet to find due to my own issues, but a good "healthy" relationship should bring out the best in us not the worst.

I think generally speaking any romantic relationship is emotional, meaning we feel certain emotions not felt with a friend, family member, co-worker etc.

I admit I am not all the way healthy (I recently came to terms with this) but I am learning what healthy looks like - that being when we feel/experience those emotions (and vulnerability), they won't cause us discomfort or to want to run away or push our partner away or to emotionally abuse, sabotage or stonewall.

These are issues within ourselves that ideally should be resolved before becoming romantically involved with another person in a serious way, imo.

 

 

 

[catfeeder]

3 hours ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

I have these same issue every time I get close to someone. Ignoring it isn’t the answer. I came here to try to gain some tools, not to further avoid things I’d like to get over. The only time these issues aren’t present in my life is when I keep all relationships at arms lengths. I’m not interested in doing that anymore 

With this woman, I have a platform to work out some of my issues, and I’m taking advantage of that 

I understand. We've discussed your black and white thinking, and you're doing it here, when you raise only two extreme options; either total enmeshment where you feel engulfed and believe that that's a unique 'you' problem, OR a permanent flee. A simple tool called 'diffusion' can expand your focus beyond spinning into an unproductive drill OR running away.

It's no insult from those of us who have raised expanding your focus onto other people. First, your posts never discuss your social life outside of the scope of this woman, so we have no way to know that your attachment isn't focused like a laser beam with no diffusion. It has sounded that way, and so our suggestions are perfectly reasonable. Second: diffusion is not avoidance--it's the balanced middle point between enmeshment and fleeing.

Perfectly healthy people get exhausted from the intensity of an SO or any other person to whom we've been over-exposed. Hunkering down into suffocation is not exactly the best tool for resolution. Taking a breather to go shoot baskets or take a walk with someone else, or helping someone to clean out their garage, or whatever--these are healthy tools for 'normalizing'. It offers just enough distance to gain clarity, which can avoid a spin that drills you down into panic or keeps you floundering inside a perspective that is too close to your nose to see clearly.

[Batya33]

Married for awhile and I also agree with Wiseman that healthy relationships should not bring out the worst in us - and certainly not in any regular way.  I think part of this is a potentially bad match for a romantic relationship but what I would do first is decide -internally- do I want to be in a serious, committed, exclusive relationship with her -and if so -you've certainly known each other long enough to know IMO that is a conversation to be had relatively soon as I suspect a lot of the negative/stressful stuff comes from this not having any definition or structure and you waiting for the shoe to drop -she declined this date and felt the need to tell you somehow.  What about the next one?

[catfeeder]

Quote

23 hours ago,  NighttimeNightmare said:

Recently she told me my coming across as controlling and a bit narcissistic and that it’s a hard boundary for her.  I said ok, please let me know when I’m behaving like that and I’ll nip it in the bud. 

That's a vague thing to say. Did she give you any examples of what she meant by this?

You gave this as an example, but it's missing a key ingredient. Did she explain what she means by this? I mean, I wouldn't take too kindly to a blanket statement that I'm being controlling or narcissistic with no example of WHICH of my behaviors they're characterizing this way.

It's like saying "You're being a jerk, and it's up to you to figure out how..." Not helpful.

Also, what's with her holding up boundaries on YOUR behavior? We can only form boundaries for ourselves, not someone else. (Attempting to do so IS controlling and narcissistic 😉 )

 

[rainbowsandroses]

25 minutes ago, catfeeder said:

That's a vague thing to say. Did she give you any examples of what she meant by this?

25 minutes ago, catfeeder said:

You gave this as an example, but it's missing a key ingredient. Did she explain what she means by this? I mean, I wouldn't take too kindly to a blanket statement that I'm being controlling or narcissistic with no example of WHICH of my behaviors they're characterizing this way.

Yes this^ I had questioned the same thing earlier @catfeeder.  NN's response was quite perplexing. 

I dunno maybe it's me, and in NO way do I mean this as an insult or disrespectful to NN but one of the reasons I hesitate to provide my take on the situation NN is because I feel like I am walking on eggshells and you might misinterpret, take offense or even lash out.

Now this is just ME and unique to me and I am probably overly-sensitive as I have some **** going on in my life right now, but just thought I would mention it, on the off chance you may want to consider it FWIW.

Anyway, good luck I wish you all the best....

 

[NighttimeNightmare]

It feels like nearly every time I a question and it’s commented upon I realize that what’s being repeated back to me is not what I’m experiencing in person, or what I meant, etc.  It’s not that I’m taking offense, it’s that im trying to explain better and realign everything but it’s already too late.. 

 

an example is me making a statement about people’s worst traits come out in relationships. Like Jesus. Even that was taken in such a rigid and literal sense when I wasn’t meaning it that rigid like you’d see in toxic situations. I wasn’t saying “relationships make you toxic and bring out the worst in you!”  I meant that really deep intimate connections tend to be more likely to trigger things people already have inside of them… like people who are very healthy in their friendships may become super anxiously attached in a romantic setting. Not a huge deal, but it shows the person what they need to work on that was hidden in more surface types of connections. And yea I’ve heard this from numerous psychotherapists who study the brain and human psychology for a living. So… agree or disagree. Maybe once again I’m not being CLEAR enough

 

but it’s exhausting when I’m attempting to explain myself and people have an agenda and flip my story into something it isn’t. Wiseman.. you do it constantly. I don’t get it.  You create a strawman and then run with it while iM over here trying to correct the story.  Then, I miss out on being able to answer the kind souls who are actually trying to help and ask relevant questions  

 

and I’ve seen some of you do this to other people who have come here to post as well, so it’s not just an experience related to me. 

[NighttimeNightmare]

1 hour ago, catfeeder said:

You gave this as an example, but it's missing a key ingredient. Did she explain what she means by this? I mean, I wouldn't take too kindly to a blanket statement that I'm being controlling or narcissistic with no example of WHICH of my behaviors they're characterizing this way.

Yes. That particular day I tried to take the phone out of her hand while she was using it because i thought she was doing something wrong.  And she got mad and said I often think I’m right and everyone else is wrong. Don’t snatch things from her space like that, it’s a boundary for her. So I said well to me I am right and am I supposed to just sit and watch you do something wrong?  Then she was like, yada yada this is what I mean, you can never admit you’re wrong. Yada yada.  And said it’s not that I can’t offer correction, but to do that constantly makes her feel I think she’s stupid or something. She asked if anyone else in my life has ever felt as she does… and I said yes, often. 
 

I told her I was kind of shocked she’s been feeling like I’m bossing her around/controlling/ etc and she clarified it’s not often, but it’s enough.  So I said that I don’t realize when I’m doing it, clearly, if it’s something she’s felt from me for some time. So I said “can you please let me know when I’m doing that” 

[Batya33]

It's because typed words have limitations especially when we're basically strangers.  And you're referring to a multilayered situation and inner situation wiht lots of 'history" you've written about.  I don't think a romantic relationship necessarily brings out any different sides of someone than a really close friendship unless the person has issues with romantic relationship or physical intimacy.  (I was fearful of saying yes to my husband about getting back together after 7 years apart -for about 60 seconds - and for some inexplicable reason saying yes to forever till death do us part at our wedding felt- natural, magical -no fear.  I mean what's more vulnerable than promising, essentially -forever? And that brought out inner peace, joy and excitement and magic - not fear/anxiety or wanting to run away.  Even though I'm type A,  tend to be more anxious about stuff than average maybe, etc.  So I don't buy that theory and I do think what's going on has something to do with your past.  Much more to do with this particular person.

[NighttimeNightmare]

2 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

I do think what's going on has something to do with your past.  Much more to do with this particular person.

Exactly. I never said otherwise, that’s exactly it. They’re historical wounds that close relationships (usually familial and romantic) can bring out of us. 
 

it doesn’t make the relationship bad, or the person bad, it has 0 to do with the person. They’re just the mirror. 
 

it’s a good thing if you are willing to catch the issues and fix them.
 

my issues don’t come out in run of the mill friendships because I don’t care enough. They’re different. They don’t affect me as much 

[Batya33]

4 minutes ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

Yes. That particular day I tried to take the phone out of her hand while she was using it because i thought she was doing something wrong.  And she got mad and said I often think I’m right and everyone else is wrong. Don’t snatch things from her space like that, it’s a boundary for her. So I said well to me I am right and am I supposed to just sit and watch you do something wrong?  Then she was like, yada yada this is what I mean, you can never admit you’re wrong. Yada yada.  And said it’s not that I can’t offer correction, but to do that constantly makes her feel I think she’s stupid or something. She asked if anyone else in my life has ever felt as she does… and I said yes, often. 
 

I told her I was kind of shocked she’s been feeling like I’m bossing her around/controlling/ etc and she clarified it’s not often, but it’s enough.  So I said that I don’t realize when I’m doing it, clearly, if it’s something she’s felt from me for some time. So I said “can you please let me know when I’m doing that” 

I mean - unless she was about to dial 911 because her UberEats was delayed and she was furious - or took a call from a known scammer and was about to give out her credit card security code - why in the world would you ever try to take someone's phone away as a reaction to something she might be doing "wrong" in your opinion? 

Yes you are supposed to sit and watch her do something "wrong" rather than try to grab her phone.  Saying something like "are you sure you want to ...." is ok - if you think she doesn't know - but otherwise -yes you let her do something "wrong"

[Batya33]

1 minute ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

Exactly. I never said otherwise, that’s exactly it. They’re historical wounds that close relationships (usually familial and romantic) can bring out of us. 
 

it doesn’t make the relationship bad, or the person bad, it has 0 to do with the person. They’re just the mirror. 
 

it’s a good thing if you are willing to catch the issues and fix them.
 

my issues don’t come out in run of the mill friendships because I don’t care enough. They’re different. They don’t affect me as much 

Oh ok you are a person who doesn't have close friendships where you care that much.  I think you two are oil and water if you feel like you can try to take away her phone in the situation you described.  

[NighttimeNightmare]

2 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

 

It's because typed words have limitations especially when we're basically strangers

 

I get that but then why not ask questions to get to the truth? Obviously no one is forced to take the time to interact with the people who post here right. But if someone so chooses to it seems counter-productive to have, what reads to me like an agenda, and flip the script around into a narrative that isn’t really occurring in that person’s life. 🤷‍♂️  like don’t treat me like im

some scummy pervert chasing a lonely old woman who is putting up boundaries to block my perversions, and then act like that’s what my post was about.  Then when I say “oh hey that’s not what’s happening” it’s already a strawman at that point. Not saying you’ve done this, just giving an example