Contact Or Not?

[Carus]

BoltnRun - Nice to 'see' you (despite it being here) and thanks for your note*

24 minutes ago, boltnrun said:

I understand.  My ex husband has had two bouts with cancer and has gone through Chemo and radiation (the second time after he had been told since he'd been in remission for three years he was "cured" and yet, he had a second bout).  I have not remained in contact with him but I do still want him to be healthy and happy, so I ask our shared son how he's doing.  But if he asked for my help in some way I would provide it.  I don't HATE the guy.  I have no reason to.

I hear that. I don't 'hate' any of my ex's. They all did what they felt was right for them at the time, and to be honest, in hindsight, I admire them for having the strength to do it. This is my first time as the initiator and if you still love the person it's like breaking your own heart as well...!

However, in those cases and I assume in yours, much time has already passed. If I heard my exwife was in hospital, I don't think I'd be writing on a forum about whether or not I should be in contact with her. I'd just wish her well from afar*

24 minutes ago, boltnrun said:

I do hope your wife didn't stage this "accident" in the hopes it would bring you back.  That would reveal a level of pathology that's beyond anything you could help her with.

Yeh I agree, but I'm going to go with she didn't. It just sounds more like she's just walking around in a daze due to the extreme shock, grief and trauma......I highly doubt she did it to 'get me back', but I can't rule out she may have done it to end it all....if you know what I mean*

24 minutes ago, boltnrun said:

Do her parents know about the separation and the "accident"?  They should be aware if they aren't already.  They could provide the kind of support she really needs.

I don't think they know, especially as her daughter was texting me earlier asking where she is.......And you would think the family would support her wouldn't you?

But alongside what I mentioned above, in many cultures such as this, if a woman gets divorced, it brings great shame on the family and they can actually turn against her! This is also playing into the trauma she is experiencing.....

Now I can't say that this will definately be the case with her family, but myself and some friends are suggesting she go to spend this time with her family and she seems to be very reluctant to do that.

24 minutes ago, boltnrun said:

As you've noted, any attention from you could be interpreted as you wanting to reconcile, and false hope not realized can be more devastating than the original separation.

 Yeh been there. Got the souvenirs....

And until this happened we were doing ok with the extremely minimal contact. So I'm glad she's not in a coma or anything like that and I can start to back off again....although I know she is pining away over there and her last text as I posted above, was asking how long we're going to stay separated....

I can't answer that right now coz she really is a great wife. But there are some things missing and do I go back and live the rest of my life with 'just good enough'.....?

xox

[boltnrun]

56 minutes ago, Carus said:

But alongside what I mentioned above, in many cultures such as this, if a woman gets divorced, it brings great shame on the family and they can actually turn against her! This is also playing into the trauma she is experiencing.....

But she has a child, right?  So doesn't that mean she's been divorced?  Or is she a widow?

[Carus]

10 hours ago, boltnrun said:

But she has a child, right?  So doesn't that mean she's been divorced?  Or is she a widow?

Heh...Neither, but you know people have children out of wedlock right...? 😉

When she got pregnant the father just took off.....and has been absent ever since*

[boltnrun]

11 hours ago, Carus said:

Heh...Neither, but you know people have children out of wedlock right...? 😉

When she got pregnant the father just took off.....and has been absent ever since*

I do know that, but I guess I'm confused about why divorce is shameful to her family but having a child without being married is not shameful.

[Carus]

Just now, boltnrun said:

I do know that, but I guess I'm confused about why divorce is shameful to her family but having a child without being married is not shameful.

Yeh I know. Different strokes for different cultures I guess....and perhaps it wasn't a planned pregnancy. Perhaps there was a lot of shame inflicted back then, who knows 🤷‍♀️

But perhaps not. The family was still obviously willing to take on the new child whilst the mum went away to find work.....Difficult times.

Bringing it back to now, I'm pretty sure her family would still be supportive and I actually think she's hesitant to go at this stage because she's sitting over there praying I'm going to change my mind any second now 😞

[Batya33]

44 minutes ago, Carus said:

Yeh I know. Different strokes for different cultures I guess....and perhaps it wasn't a planned pregnancy. Perhaps there was a lot of shame inflicted back then, who knows 🤷‍♀️

But perhaps not. The family was still obviously willing to take on the new child whilst the mum went away to find work.....Difficult times.

Bringing it back to now, I'm pretty sure her family would still be supportive and I actually think she's hesitant to go at this stage because she's sitting over there praying I'm going to change my mind any second now 😞

I really have no input - it’s just beyond what I can offer input on except the basics. But I offer that I’m sorry you’re going through this. It’s not easy on her her family or you and it’s complex as far as what  to do from what it sounds like. I hope it all works out and soon. Take care. 

[boltnrun]

I can see some degree of embarrassment being a factor.  My brother has been married and divorced twice.  His second marriage only lasted a year and prior to that he was extolling the virtues of his fiancée, claiming she was "the complete opposite" of his first wife.  His immediate and extended family all saw both his wives differently (as in, trouble on the horizon) but we stayed quiet because he seemed so happy.  Then when his marriages went epically bad it was embarrassing for him to disclose to the family that he was getting divorced.  The second one was especially embarrassing because, like I mentioned, it only lasted a year and he'd been talking his wife up so much.  He didn't even want to tell his coworkers he was getting divorced because they kept asking things like "so how's newlywed life?"  And he told me he was ashamed to face our extended family because the marriage had been so short.  Of course I told him no one would judge him and that we would all be supportive (which we were).  But some of our cousins told me privately they'd seen things in his wife that concerned them but they kept quiet for his sake.

The (long winded) point I'm trying to make is I can understand if your estranged wife is ashamed to admit her marriage isn't working out rather than her being shamed by her family.

I do hope her mental health improves and that she is able to accept the separation and impending divorce.  I also hope her family is supportive.

[Jibralta]

On 12/22/2023 at 8:05 AM, Carus said:

Yes her daughter is only 8 and lives with her family. This is very common here in Asia for the children to stay with the family as the parent(s) have to go where the work is......Difficult for sure, but it is how it is*

I know a lady like this. She's from China and lives here in the US, working as an aesthetician. I've known her for a couple of years. She only recently told me that she has a 17 year old daughter back in China. She works here to support her. I did get the impression that the arrangement was not unusual to her. 

On 12/21/2023 at 11:57 PM, Carus said:

3 days ago we received a message that she'd wandered out into the traffic, been hit by a car and had been taken to the hospital!

When I first read this, I was like, what? But actually, knowing more, I can how someone in her circumstance can become that distracted.

On 12/21/2023 at 11:57 PM, Carus said:

Many people have had children believing that would solve the issues in their relationship

You know, sometimes people think marriage will solve the issues in their relationship. Nothing solves 'issues' but working them out.

[catfeeder]

On 12/22/2023 at 7:28 AM, Carus said:

She can be very jealous and she made me her whole world.

I'm sorry for these circumstances, Carus. You did the right thing. When someone makes you the single-minded focus of their life and guards you with jealousy, there is no cage that's smaller. It never gets better, only worse, and the only way out is out.

Quote

She's just text me now thanking me for caring ... and asking me how long will we be separated for.

That's not good. She's expecting reconciliation while pretending that the separation is temporary.

This may sound callous, but her injuries and loss of job may actually force her to deal with her parents about the separation and move in with them and her daughter. That move may actually help disabuse her of her barrier to recognizing your separation as permanent.

I think you're smart to stay away, because you are clear about this woman's fragility and state of denial. If you re-enter the picture, she may believe that you're ending the separation, and that's detrimental to her.

My heart goes out to you, and write more if it helps.

[Carus]

10 hours ago, Batya33 said:

I really have no input - it’s just beyond what I can offer input on except the basics. But I offer that I’m sorry you’re going through this. It’s not easy on her her family or you and it’s complex as far as what  to do from what it sounds like. I hope it all works out and soon. Take care. 

Bataya - I still appreciate you reading and responding. The Universe is always changing, and so in one way or another, this too will change 🙏

================================================================

9 hours ago, boltnrun said:

The (long winded) point I'm trying to make is I can understand if your estranged wife is ashamed to admit her marriage isn't working out rather than her being shamed by her family.

I was actually going to mention this too. When a relationship or moreso a marriage ends, there is definately an element of shame that we heap on ourselves. We certainly don't need more from family and friends.....However, I think we tend to do that to ourselves. Generally friends and family are pretty understanding and supportive... at least in our Western cultures right?

9 hours ago, boltnrun said:

I do hope her mental health improves and that she is able to accept the separation and impending divorce.  I also hope her family is supportive.

Thankyou for your well wishes. I do hope that too Bolt and that she has the strength to get through this.

It's only been a little over a week so the shock and trauma is still very fresh. I've woken up to a text this morning saying she doesn't want to go to her family. She wants to wait until I'm ready to be back with her. I might try and reiterate to her that, that's probably not going to happen, at least in the shorter term...

===============================================================

8 hours ago, Jibralta said:

I know a lady like this. She's from China and lives here in the US, working as an aesthetician. I've known her for a couple of years. She only recently told me that she has a 17 year old daughter back in China. She works here to support her. I did get the impression that the arrangement was not unusual to her.

You are correct. It's quite common in these poverty stricken countries. I'm sure it's still not easy though. I do wish though that she would take this opportunity to go be with her daughter. She is on school holidays and my wife isn't working at the moment. In fact during our time together and now, I have set her and her family up financially so they need not worry about money. At least I did that 🙏

8 hours ago, Jibralta said:

When I first read this, I was like, what? But actually, knowing more, I can how someone in her circumstance can become that distracted.

Yes, God I can't tell you the terrible thoughts I had when I got the news and then we couldn't find out where she was! But I would agree with your assessment. I doubt she did it intentionally although she has said she wants to die.....But regardless, I'm very grateful she is 'generally' ok....*

8 hours ago, Jibralta said:

You know, sometimes people think marriage will solve the issues in their relationship. Nothing solves 'issues' but working them out.

Yes definately, and furthermore to have children thinking that will solve the issues when really, it doesn't.

The issues 'I' had could probably be worked out but if she was to get pregnant, perhaps in time I'd start to resent her etc...and I didn't want it to get to that point.

But something I don't think I've mentioned is that, despite her being a wonderful wife and person, my heart just wasn't in it 100%. I went in and tried for a few years to nourish and grow that love for her but it just wasn't getting any better. And so I have to ask myself, how long would I be able to carry on like that and again would I actually start resenting her etc....? I don't want that for either of us*

============================================================

7 hours ago, catfeeder said:

I'm sorry for these circumstances, Carus. You did the right thing. When someone makes you the single-minded focus of their life and guards you with jealousy, there is no cage that's smaller. It never gets better, only worse, and the only way out is out.

And finally my dear CatFeeder. The angel of the forum. Thankyou, it helps to have that reaffirmed because she really is wonderful and there is a part of me still questioning WTH am I doing??

As the relationship progressed and she more and more made me her 'everything', I always tried to dissuade that knowing it's not a good thing to do. Unfortunately she really doesn't have much of a life outside of 'us' so I can understand why it was happening.....

But now she will be forced to do her best to make a life outside of us right? I just hope she has the strength to get through it, and I have the strength not go back out of sadness and pity....at least not in the short term anyway*

The disagreement on having children, I don't know how a couple can reconcile that. One person is going to have to compromise and that is going to leave the other person not very happy. I also don't want to have a child and then put them into a relationship that probably has an eventual expiry date anyway.

7 hours ago, catfeeder said:

She's expecting reconciliation while pretending that the separation is temporary.

Yes, she is....In fact I woke up to another text this morning saying how difficult it is and how much she wants to be with me.

It's only been a week though and the first stages of grief are Shock and Denial right?

7 hours ago, catfeeder said:

This may sound callous, but her injuries and loss of job may actually force her to deal with her parents about the separation and move in with them and her daughter. That move may actually help disabuse her of her barrier to recognizing your separation as permanent.

It's not callous at all and thankyou for attending to the details in my story*

In fact, I remember sustaining an injury whilst going through a bad breakup and thinking "What's going to heal first? My injury or my heart?"..............so in some ways yes, it can shift the focus a little.

Myself and some other friends are telling her to go to her family but right now she just won't go 😞

7 hours ago, catfeeder said:

I think you're smart to stay away, because you are clear about this woman's fragility and state of denial. If you re-enter the picture, she may believe that you're ending the separation, and that's detrimental to her.

Yes well, I've been in her position many times so I know full well how that goes.

I am staying away but still wanting to offer support from afar and where I can. You can see why I started this thread but thankfully that immediate danger seems to have passed....for now.

I'm fighting my own urges to go back and try and reconcile this marriage but there is definitely something inside me that knows that would probably be a mistake right now.....Let alone the friends I have that have done it themselves telling me don't do it, coz you'll only have to go through this again further down the road.......I'm sure there'd be a thousand people on this very forum who would say the same thing*

7 hours ago, catfeeder said:

My heart goes out to you, and write more if it helps.

I appreciate that ad infinitum and I'm sure I will. It does help and there will be a long way to go yet*

================================================================

So thankyou so much to everyone who is reading this thread and even moreso dropping thoughts and comments. It's helping me more than I can express. It's hard on me too and I'm also in pain myself 🙏

[MissCanuck]

11 hours ago, Carus said:

She wants to wait until I'm ready to be back with her. I might try and reiterate to her that, that's probably not going to happen, at least in the shorter term...

Now you're consideing reconciliation? You need to get clear on what you want. 

You seem to be flip-flopping and she is going to wind up even more confused. If you don't intend to get back together, you need to tell her in no uncertain terms that it is not going to happen, neither in the shorter nor longer term. 

Make a decision and stick to it. 

[Carus]

It's only been a week and you are asking me to make such a big decision in such a short amount of time....?

Of course I'm undecided....It's not like I was completely miserable in my marriage. So I need time as well.... That's why we are spending some time apart, not standing in front of the judge saying "Divorce Please!"...

The most successful reconciliations tend to happen after some time apart. I'm talking weeks, months and in some cases, years....Not 7 days ya!

I've told her what my issues are and why I can't be with her right now but she is blinded by grief and doesn't hear what I saying.....

Of course I'm undecided...Again, 1 week.......🙏

[Jaunty]

1 hour ago, Carus said:

It's only been a week and you are asking me to make such a big decision in such a short amount of time....?

You initiated a breakup, and followed through with it.  That was making a big decision and acting on it, right there.

If you wanted a "trial separation" or to work on your marriage,  as you know, there are other courses you can take.  

But you certainly did not give the impression here that you are undecided.

I can tell you that the issues that you have:  she wants children and you don't, and she has nothing else in her life besides you - are not going to get better because you are on a break and she is wandering the streets in a fugue state.

Question:  Wasn't your first wife (or if not first, the other one you posted about) similar insofar as making you her complete world?  

 

[Carus]

13 hours ago, Carus said:

.......there is a part of me still questioning WTH am I doing??

Just thought I'd quote that in case y'all missed it.....

==================================================

19 minutes ago, Jaunty said:

You initiated a breakup, and followed through with it.  That was making a big decision and acting on it, right there.

Where have I said that any of this has not been a big decision? It's massive and of course confusing. Has noone else ever been in this situation....?

19 minutes ago, Jaunty said:

If you wanted a "trial separation" or to work on your marriage,  as you know, there are other courses you can take.

Actually I didn't 'want' any of this.....But after 4 years of being unsure and trying to grow a seed that wouldn't grow, what are the other courses you are suggesting....?

Right now the bigger part of me feels I can't be in this marriage. Will that change over time? You tell me. Will it be too late if it does and she decides she's done? If that is what happens then that is what happens.

19 minutes ago, Jaunty said:

But you certainly did not give the impression here that you are undecided.

Well apart from that first quote above^^.....I guess if that is the impression you got then that is probably what the truth is once you pull back the covers.

Perhaps when some people leave a relationship that's it, they're instantly done. But I think the majority would still go through a stage of doubt and confusion no....?

19 minutes ago, Jaunty said:

I can tell you that the issues that you have:  she wants children and you don't, and she has nothing else in her life besides you - are not going to get better because you are on a break and she is wandering the streets in a fugue state.

I partly agree. If we got back together now then she wouldn't be wandering around in a fugue state.

However, the other issues, mostly the child thing, how does a couple resolve that? What is your opinion on that? Obviously one person is going to have to compromise which then leaves the other person.... where?

19 minutes ago, Jaunty said:

Question:  Wasn't your first wife (or if not first, the other one you posted about) similar insofar as making you her complete world?

Are you referring to my exwife from a few years ago? What can I say? I'm a hellova guy....haha

No I'm joking....If it is her you're referring to, I was the one who got overly invested and attached. Something I did for most of my life. Something I had to learn not to do*
 

Thanks for your input. Look forward to your thoughts on the child thing*

[Jaunty]

I know you are going through a very difficult time with this.

A great many of us here have gone through bad breakups / divorces.  

I think it is very unusual for someone to feel 100% confident that they're doing the "right thing" and very comfortable and confident at the time that they break up and physically move apart from their partner.

My point here is that people who have differences that are irreconcilable - in your case, it's the child thing and probably her dependence upon you - they have already put in their time trying to come to common ground, or at least to "agree to disagree" to some extent, but it did not work.

So, they break up.

If you still felt that there was some point in exploring the children issue,  I think you would be doing that now rather than having called off your marriage.

Once that line has been crossed, like it has been here - no.  Most of us are not talking about "maybe" reconciling.  The resolve that it is over would have been very firm before making the split.

 

[boltnrun]

There's no real resolution that doesn't involve one of the parties not getting what they truly want.

There are some who will insist once you hold the child in your arms you'll fall in love and be supremely happy you chose to have them.  That actually happened somewhat live on this forum.  A man initially was aghast that his one night stand got pregnant and refused to abort.  He was infuriated.  Accused her of sleeping with multiple men and doubted he was the baby's father. But once the baby was born he not only fell in love with the child but now he believes he's falling in love with the mother.  But that's not always the case.  I know someone who was married, had an affair, his wife found out and divorced him and he ended up marrying his affair.  His affair insisted they would have to have a baby together or she would breakup with him.  So he very reluctantly went along with it and was an extremely reluctant and resentful father.  His other two children were adults and he strongly disliked having to go through the school/school events/parents night thing with their daughter.  He had wanted to be done with all of that but if he did his affair would have left him and he would have had no one.  It really wasn't a great situation.  I'll never forget the look on his face when he was telling him how annoying it was having to go through all of that again, when he had just wanted to have fun with his affair/new wife.

Think about 30-40 more years of marriage with your wife EXACTLY AS SHE IS NOW, but adding in a baby.  Does that sound like paradise, like the wonderful marriage you've always wanted?  Or does it sound more like a prison sentence?

[Lambert]

Hi @Carus

I'm sorry. This must be very difficult.

As I was reading through all the comments, my thoughts are-

you did the right thing. 

she is in a fragile state, so you don't want to hurt her more or give her hope that will ultimately hurt her more. 

I was thinking,  as her spouse and next of kin, you are involved with her care and well being. So in your shoes I would keep contact with her care givers to see how you can support her behind the scenes. And then with her, I would maintain that I do truly care for her well-being, her, and that is what we should both be focused on. 

Once she is stronger, you can have the conversation that the marital problems are still the same. 

[Carus]

Thanks Lambert - It is difficult because I still do care about her for sure.

I agree with what you say and when I got the news I of course jumped into action if you will. Now that the immediate danger seems to have passed I can start to back off again.

Thankyou for recognizing that she is in a fragile state. Of course she is. In the last 2 months she has lost her job, lost her husband and been struck by a car! It's a lot to take on for anyone. I do hope she has the strength to get through the next little while*

Here is some friendly advice from some woman driving a car lol ~

I have a friend here who separated from his wife for 6 months. They are now going well*

Regards*

[Carus]

21 minutes ago, Jaunty said:

If you still felt that there was some point in exploring the children issue,  I think you would be doing that now rather than having called off your marriage.

Thanks Jaunty and thanks Bolt for those stories.

This quote^ speaks a lot of truth.....and so let me be a little more truthful and vulnerable here: I got to a point where I thought "Ok. I can see how important this is to her" and took an approach of well if God wants us to have a baby then that's what will happen.....

So we stopped using protection....Yet after a year there was still no child. So I guess that's not what God/The Universe wanted.....

And now, I feel like separating before she does get pregnant is the right thing to do for the reasons I've run over earlier in the thread*

[Jaunty]

Throughout this thread you have mentioned several times things to the effect of "divorce, if it comes to that."

What would it look like TO YOU for a reconciliation to be a reasonable choice?

And - how would this point be reached if the two of you are not trying to get there?

Are you expecting that maybe, when she is facing life without you, she will decide to give up on the idea of more children and be contented just to be with you?

Or maybe you could reconsider your own stance on children?

Last question:

Had you agreed, before marriage, that you would not have kids together?  Or was that a possibility at the beginning?

[Carus]

25 minutes ago, boltnrun said:

Think about 30-40 more years of marriage with your wife EXACTLY AS SHE IS NOW, but adding in a baby.  Does that sound like paradise, like the wonderful marriage you've always wanted?  Or does it sound more like a prison sentence?

I wouldn't necessarily call it a 'prison sentence' but I certainly believe that things wouldn't get much better no....

[catfeeder]

14 hours ago, Carus said:

Myself and some other friends are telling her to go to her family but right now she just won't go 😞

If you allow her to believe that the separation is temporary, that may keep her in limbo awaiting your return. If you tell her that it's permanent, she may start seeking a more advantageous situation for herself.

[Jaunty]

7 minutes ago, Carus said:

 

So we stopped using protection....Yet after a year there was still no child. So I guess that's not what God/The Universe wanted.....

And now, I feel like separating before she does get pregnant is the right thing to do for the reasons I've run over earlier in the thread*

I see.  It's easy to understand, under these circumstances, why she would be feeling completely blindsided and thrown away.

I'm not trying to guilt trip you.  After all is said and done, you need to do what is right for you.  Being with someone you do not want to be with is not right for you, or for them.

Still, I can empathize with how she must be experiencing this.  From her perspective, you were open to having a child, the two of you were trying for a child, and then you just cut her loose in the midst of that.

Rough.

The best thing you could do for her AND for yourself is to make this a very clean break, so there are not any "grey areas" about maybe getting back together.   That's how both of you will best move forward.

[Carus]

Just now, Jaunty said:

What would it look like TO YOU for a reconciliation to be a reasonable choice?

And - how would this point be reached if the two of you are not trying to get there?

It's a good question and I really don't know. I guess I could be 'content' in the marriage but I certainly recognize that there are things that have brought it to this point which cannot be brushed aside or swept under the rug.....

As far as trying to get there, all it would take is a phone call from me and she'd come back. But would that just be out of pity from my side? And would things be ok for a time and then just deteriorate again? That would be the risk.....I'd need to be 100% sure and right now, I'm just not.....

More time is needed.

6 minutes ago, Jaunty said:

Are you expecting that maybe, when she is facing life without you, she will decide to give up on the idea of more children and be contented just to be with you?

It's a possibility but I'm not expecting that no. There are other issues as well. The child thing is a big one though.

7 minutes ago, Jaunty said:

Had you agreed, before marriage, that you would not have kids together?  Or was that a possibility at the beginning?

I don't recall discussing that no. I wasn't aware that people sat down and made lists of how things are going to be once married. I was happy to adopt her daughter as my own and she didn't really bring it up until we were married.....After which she went full force on it.

[Lambert]

We do some of our best thinking in the car😇

She gives some good insight- it takes time to clear one's head and determine what do I need?

It's sad this happened and is a lot to deal with, the accident (and I hope it was accident. I think of the driver here. like holy cow, hitting a pedestrian. That's got to be devastating)

Anyway, cool heads need to prevail here and it's just not possible until she gets the care she needs to be back on her own, working, etc. And that is a long way off right now.  And that's what she needs to understand. 

It's almost like you are the parent to her. You have to be super strong and recognize- nothing matters but her health getting back. And for now, the state of the marriage is on the back burner. of course, you can use this time to think and determine what you want and need.  

Don't feel pressured. She being hit by a car, is sad AND it's separate from what was happening before the accident.