Long-distance guy - update

[Starlight925]

Why "use" anyone to "practice" detachment with?  

That's just not nice, nor is it honest.

I see you've already made a decision, so it's a fait accompli.

He has clearly shown a passive, laissez-faire attitude towards this whole thing, so perhaps he's going to "practice detachment" with you too.

Match made in heaven.

[Jaunty]

6 minutes ago, kim42 said:

It's not an experiment to see if I can resist him, it's for me to learn to have lower expectations, and to try to have a good time without analyzing every little detail. 

 

I have no idea how this will pan out, maybe I'll end up disappointed, maybe not, maybe I won't even like him anymore, my goal is to learn to detach from the outcome.

Fine.  Of course you will do what you want.  But this is disingenuous and you are not doing yourself any favors by telling yourself this kind of complicated justification for going to see this guy.  

It's actually quite convoluted.  It's hard to even unwind it.

In short, this "experiment" was something that would have happened without having another meeting with this virtual stranger you got a big crush on after spending a fun day together.  That is, IF you were truly not invested in a hoped for outcome.

Why?  Because you and he have already been through all the steps.  Revisiting it is not going to "teach" you anything new.   You had the learning experiences and the time to detach already happened at that time.

Why do you need to see him again to "learn" or "prove" to yourself that you don't have expectations?  

If you were detached you would not be doing this.

Honestly I am not trying to pick on you.  I think you still like the guy, still 'secretly' (even to yourself, because I don't think you're being honest with yourself) want him to be your boyfriend some how, some way ... and your feelings will be hurt.

That's all just fine.  Nothing wrong with trying more.  But why the big narrative about learning to detach?  

 

[Batya33]

3 minutes ago, Starlight925 said:

Why "use" anyone to "practice" detachment with?  

That's just not nice, nor is it honest.

I see you've already made a decision, so it's a fait accompli.

He has clearly shown a passive, laissez-faire attitude towards this whole thing, so perhaps he's going to "practice detachment" with you too.

Match made in heaven.

I also agree with this - the only reason I didn't make a particular point of it was because it is a situation where they're unlikely to see each other much and it's only one hangout - however yes if he is busy and takes out his free time to do this I'd feel the same - I had people try to practice on me - wanting to meet as a new "friend" but actually wanted to sell me their MLM crap, and last month I met someone who said one reason she wanted to meet in person was to practice conversational English -she recently moved from another country. 

I really liked that about her -how forthright she was and we had a lovely time! Honestly if she hadn't told me beforehand I'd have been annoyed -I'm so busy and setting aside time for someone is hard but I do that to make new friends at times.  So yes, good point.

[boltnrun]

Again, everyone is different. But how I personally "practice" detaching from someone is to not see them. And I "practice" not getting invested in an outcome by not putting myself in a situation where I'm spending time alone with them, potentially kissing or having other forms of physical contact. If I like a man a lot, the last thing I need to do is kiss him and then try not to care if I ever hear from him again.

But again, if this approach works positively for you then it's not my place to tell you you're "wrong". I just would feel bad if someone who comes across as nice as you do ends up hurt, disappointed or worse, anxious if you two do kiss or have other physical contact and you don't hear from him as often as you'd like. 

[kim42]

29 minutes ago, Starlight925 said:

Why "use" anyone to "practice" detachment with?  

That's just not nice, nor is it honest.

I see you've already made a decision, so it's a fait accompli.

He has clearly shown a passive, laissez-faire attitude towards this whole thing, so perhaps he's going to "practice detachment" with you too.

Match made in heaven.

I honestly don't see this situation as dishonest, I didn't promise him anything, I simply asked him if he wants to catch up and he said yes.

[kim42]

35 minutes ago, Jaunty said:

Fine.  Of course you will do what you want.  But this is disingenuous and you are not doing yourself any favors by telling yourself this kind of complicated justification for going to see this guy.  

It's actually quite convoluted.  It's hard to even unwind it.

In short, this "experiment" was something that would have happened without having another meeting with this virtual stranger you got a big crush on after spending a fun day together.  That is, IF you were truly not invested in a hoped for outcome.

Why?  Because you and he have already been through all the steps.  Revisiting it is not going to "teach" you anything new.   You had the learning experiences and the time to detach already happened at that time.

Why do you need to see him again to "learn" or "prove" to yourself that you don't have expectations?  

If you were detached you would not be doing this.

Honestly I am not trying to pick on you.  I think you still like the guy, still 'secretly' (even to yourself, because I don't think you're being honest with yourself) want him to be your boyfriend some how, some way ... and your feelings will be hurt.

That's all just fine.  Nothing wrong with trying more.  But why the big narrative about learning to detach?  

 

I need to clarify one thing here - he's not a stranger, we've known each other for several years and would meet sometimes at work events throughout this time. This summer was the first time that we hung out just the two of us.

I never said I don't like him anymore, I'm pretty sure I said I still like him in this thread or the deleted one. Otherwise I wouldn't ask him to hang out again.

I simply decided to share the update and my decision to see him again because I like posting here and I like reading other people's opinions.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'all the steps', I simply want to meet up with him with a different mindset/approach this time, so when the next guy I'm attracted to comes along, I won't be so anxious.

I understand that it doesn't have to make sense to everyone and that's ok :)

 

[kim42]

22 minutes ago, boltnrun said:

Again, everyone is different. But how I personally "practice" detaching from someone is to not see them. And I "practice" not getting invested in an outcome by not putting myself in a situation where I'm spending time alone with them, potentially kissing or having other forms of physical contact. If I like a man a lot, the last thing I need to do is kiss him and then try not to care if I ever hear from him again.

But again, if this approach works positively for you then it's not my place to tell you you're "wrong". I just would feel bad if someone who comes across as nice as you do ends up hurt, disappointed or worse, anxious if you two do kiss or have other physical contact and you don't hear from him as often as you'd like. 

I see what you mean, and I appreciate your concern, I'm well aware of all the possible options, I'm just trying not to stress about it this time and simply enjoy a catch up with someone I get along with.

That doesn't mean that I will sleep with him or casually date him, as someone mentioned here.

[Batya33]

17 minutes ago, kim42 said:

I see what you mean, and I appreciate your concern, I'm well aware of all the possible options, I'm just trying not to stress about it this time and simply enjoy a catch up with someone I get along with.

That doesn't mean that I will sleep with him or casually date him, as someone mentioned here.

Certainly if you can enjoy it as a catch up with a friend you have things in common with because it’s convenient- he’s not going out of his way to see you and vice versa - I did the same in July 2005.  I was totally sure that’s what it would be with my long ago ex.  No dishonesty with myself. He was only in town for about a month or so anyway. But never did I imagine it would be any more than dinner.  I didn’t go home from work first to change and I wore some  old T-shirt under my casual summer sweater.  
In about 6 weeks we’ll be married 15 years. Lol. 
The more you post and the more you backpedal and change what this is and isn’t the more I wonder about your self honesty and the unnecessary risks you’re subjecting yourself to. Including ending up turning it on him for “leading you on” and deciding that all men are (fill in some jaded type phrase). 

[kim42]

3 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

Certainly if you can enjoy it as a catch up with a friend you have things in common with because it’s convenient- he’s not going out of his way to see you and vice versa - I did the same in July 2005.  I was totally sure that’s what it would be with my long ago ex.  No dishonesty with myself. He was only in town for about a month or so anyway. But never did I imagine it would be any more than dinner.  I didn’t go home from work first to change and I wore some  old T-shirt under my casual summer sweater.  
In about 6 weeks we’ll be married 15 years. Lol. 
The more you post and the more you backpedal and change what this is and isn’t the more I wonder about your self honesty and the unnecessary risks you’re subjecting yourself to. Including ending up turning it on him for “leading you on” and deciding that all men are (fill in some jaded type phrase). 

Batya, I have already made my decision and decided to share it here, and now I'm discussing it with you guys. I'm not changing anything, I said the same thing in the deleted thread. If someone has a different opinion, it's ok.

[rainbowsandroses]

1 hour ago, kim42 said:

It's not an experiment to see if I can resist him, it's for me to learn to have lower expectations, and to try to have a good time without analyzing every little detail. 

That's exactly right, and what 'detaching from the outcome' means.  

You're not resisting the attraction, heck if you're both attracted and something's happening, go for it!  

Move forward if you want.  Get serious if you want.  Enjoy the process, enjoy the journey together, one day at a time. 

No guarantees as I said previously so it makes no sense to 'attach yourself to an outcome' when neither of you can predict the future or even know what will happen tomorrow!

Even in marriages anything can happen.  We hope it will last forever but it's best to not attach yourself to that concept because it may not.  

I don't believe this is a negative attitude, it's realistic.

Generally speaking not specifically Kim's sitch because for now this is simply a catch up.... but

Enjoy and cherish each moment, love deeply and sincerely.  Don't worry about "tomorrow" and let life and the universe take you wherever it's meant to.  

If you can adopt this attitude and mean it, there will less expectations, less anxiety, less fear and for those reasons, your relationship may even have a chance of going the distance, forever, if that's what you both want.  One day at a time. 

As high expectations, anxiety and fear destroys rather than builds as evidenced time and time again on the various threads we read on this forum.  

Good luck @kim42keep us posted! 

 

 

[Batya33]

14 minutes ago, kim42 said:

Batya, I have already made my decision and decided to share it here, and now I'm discussing it with you guys. I'm not changing anything, I said the same thing in the deleted thread. If someone has a different opinion, it's ok.

Oh I totally get that.  I don’t think it’s dangerous at all. That’s why I like many others simply gave my opinion. And since it’s not for a couple of weeks and you don’t even have a specific plan it seems,you can “decide” and doesn’t mean it will happen. 
I know of many who take the tack of “oh well anything can happen even in a marriage “. Because I cannot relate at all to living daily life with that as any sort of typical or regular mindset I can’t give input on it - so I leave it to the poster or posters who follow that perspective and for sure if that’s how someone regularly approaches life or dating or jobs or whatever for sure go for it. Not a language I speak or ever would wish to. Once in a blue moon sure. Out of pure desperation sure.

If that mindset aligns with your life goals and how you view learning experiences go forth and enjoy !

[rainbowsandroses]

35 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

I know of many who take the tack of “oh well anything can happen even in a marriage “.

That's a rather cavalier way of looking at it Bat; to clarify that's not my attitude at all.

I take my relationships very seriously, I took my marriage seriously.  I didn't just shrug my shoulders and say "oh well anything can happen, whatever."

That's not what detaching from the outcome means.  To repeat for clarification purposes:

48 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

Enjoy and cherish each moment, love deeply and sincerely.  Don't worry about "tomorrow" and let life and the universe take you wherever it's meant to.  One day at a time. 

I respect that this is not for you Bat.  Or for everyone.  But Kim has expressed a desire to explore it and I fully support her in that endeavor wherever it takes her.  

You live, you learn

You love, you learn

You cry, you learn

You lose, you learn

You bleed, you learn

You scream, you learn 

~~Alanis Morissette

💛

 

 

 

[Batya33]

20 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

That's a rather cavalier way of looking at it Bat; to clarify that's not my attitude at all.

I take my relationships very seriously, I took my marriage seriously.  I didn't just shrug my shoulders and say "oh well anything can happen, whatever."

That's not what detaching from the outcome means.  To repeat for clarification purposes:

I respect that this is not for you Bat.  Or for everyone.  But Kim has expressed a desire to explore it and I fully support her in that endeavor wherever it takes her.  

You live, you learn

You love, you learn

You cry, you learn

You lose, you learn

You bleed, you learn

You scream, you learn 

~~Alanis Morissette

💛

 

 

 

I don’t see what she wrote that way  at all. Especially with the varying ways she’s described it. So even if she now posts what her attitude is since it seems to change as she describes it I’m sort of putting to the side any hard and fast analysis of it. Let’s agree to disagree. I know you tend toward the no guarantees anything can happen mindset. I don’t.  It’s all good. My sense is there’s also a decent chance over the next few weeks the actual plan could change and or her attitude or his. He’s not made a specific plan.  Neither has she. I don’t think the “just enjoy the moment “ which is a lovely sentiment I followed this morning specifically - has any relevance to this situation other in some fantasy made up way. So I can’t suggest it and respect that you have. 

[rainbowsandroses]

48 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

My sense is there’s also a decent chance over the next few weeks the actual plan could change and or her attitude or his. He’s not made a specific plan.

I agree!   And that's exactly where "remaining detached from the outcome" comes into play!  

No expectations or very few.    No guarantees.  Anything can happen just as you posted above.  :))

And even if he or they had made a plan, that could still change!  

When you're detached from a particular outcome, you're less anxious about it and less hurt and disappointed if/when things don't go your way.

I think we actually agree on this Bat! 😉

[boltnrun]

Based on the previous thread and how you wrote about how much you like this man and how much you enjoyed the day you spent together and how disappointed you were he didn't take you up on evening plans and didn't follow through with visiting you and how you were hoping he would message more...none of that says "detached" to me. 

I presume you either intend to "prove" to yourself that you can have these hopes and feelings and walk away without feeling disappointed if he doesn't follow through, or you're hoping he DOES want to see you in a romantic way and makes an effort to pursue a dating relationship.

I do hope you don't become deeply disappointed if you two do kiss and he ends up not making more of an effort. In that case he wouldn't have been "using" you because, as you've said, you are choosing this course of action.

[Batya33]

23 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

I agree!   And that's exactly where "remaining detached from the outcome" comes into play!  

No expectations or very few.    No guarantees.  Anything can happen just as you posted above.  :))

And even if he or they had made a plan, that could still change!  

When you're detached from a particular outcome, you're less anxious about it and less hurt and disappointed if/when it doesn't go your way.

I think we actually agree on this Bat! 😉

No. That is not what I meant at all and I don't think the detachment you speak of applies to this situation or should. It might apply to other situations in life but that's off topic. I agree with Bolt above and the several other posters who've expressed similar views.   Again, please, let's agree to disagree.

[kim42]

40 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

I don’t see what she wrote that way  at all. Especially with the varying ways she’s described it. So even if she now posts what her attitude is since it seems to change as she describes it I’m sort of putting to the side any hard and fast analysis of it. Let’s agree to disagree. I know you tend toward the no guarantees anything can happen mindset. I don’t.  It’s all good. My sense is there’s also a decent chance over the next few weeks the actual plan could change and or her attitude or his. He’s not made a specific plan.  Neither has she. I don’t think the “just enjoy the moment “ which is a lovely sentiment I followed this morning specifically - has any relevance to this situation other in some fantasy made up way. So I can’t suggest it and respect that you have. 

Batya, that's what I said a while ago - I've been not changing my narrative or attitude, I've been explaining the same thing since I posted this update.

As for the specific plans, I'm waiting for my work to confirm some things about my business trip so I can't make specific plans yet, he knows about this and told me to keep him posted.

[rainbowsandroses]

15 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

Again, please, let's agree to disagree.

I was teasing Batya, that's why I put the wink.  😉

But okay, we can agree to disagree on this.  Different strokes and all that. 

But wish Kim luck regardless.

[Wiseman2]

20 minutes ago, kim42 said:

, I'm waiting for my work to confirm some things about my business trip so I can't make specific plans yet, he knows about this and told me to keep him posted.

That's a good idea. It's good you're going because it will help you see how you feel and reassess things. For example it might give you closure or you might decide you would rather just be friends. Either way an in person get  together will help you sort things out. Have fun!

[kim42]

1 hour ago, boltnrun said:

Based on the previous thread and how you wrote about how much you like this man and how much you enjoyed the day you spent together and how disappointed you were he didn't take you up on evening plans and didn't follow through with visiting you and how you were hoping he would message more...none of that says "detached" to me. 

I presume you either intend to "prove" to yourself that you can have these hopes and feelings and walk away without feeling disappointed if he doesn't follow through, or you're hoping he DOES want to see you in a romantic way and makes an effort to pursue a dating relationship.

I do hope you don't become deeply disappointed if you two do kiss and he ends up not making more of an effort. In that case he wouldn't have been "using" you because, as you've said, you are choosing this course of action.

That's why I want to try to approach things differently this time because I realized I was so anxious last time that I barely enjoyed the meet. I want to be able to hang out/meet with men that I'm attracted to without expecting too much and unnecessary anxiety.

I'll see how it goes, honestly I'm not even thinking about whether I'll kiss him or not, I just want to enjoy it this time without overthinking it.

[Batya33]

5 minutes ago, kim42 said:

That's why I want to try to approach things differently this time because I realized I was so anxious last time that I barely enjoyed the meet. I want to be able to hang out/meet with men that I'm attracted to without too many expectations and unnecessary anxiety.

I'll see how it goes, honestly I'm not even thinking about whether I'll kiss him or not, I just want to enjoy it this time without overthinking it.

To me he is an individual person. So even if this approach “works” the sort of attraction can vary as can so many individual circumstances so IMO you might get calmer with this particular person despite being attracted - certainly not by hanging out once in a distant city - but sure over time two individuals can get accustomed to each other and all sorts of expectations can shift. But men are individuals who come in all sorts of flavors. And even if you feel excited with him AND manage your expectations it doesn’t mean anything with a different person. For me I learned simply with the mantra that until I was exclusively dating someone each date was the last. Unless and until there was a specific time place plan for another date. I didn’t read into signs and I paid no mind to vague or tentative plans or references to plans. And in this way even if I was wildly attracted I was able to enjoy it as one date. One and done. And I acted accordingly given my mindset that each date was the last.
 

Once we were exclusive I “expected” that we’d be together once or twice a week and typically most weekend nights. I didn’t expect we’d get married. I didn’t expect we’d be together in a year if we’d only been dating a couple months. 
I had varying levels of attraction for individuals. Which to me is normal. Men are individuals.

So if I was wildly attracted but knew he’d be relocating or knew he was dating around my ability to manage my expectations was easier than  if I was wildly attracted and he was available to date. For example. 

Lest I be accused or projecting I’m not. At all. This is my personal perspective. I’m not a fan of most generalizations about men or how to react to being attracted to “men”.  

Maybe because I’ve always had platonic male friends for the last 40 plus years and dated many different men.
I never tried to learn about how to deal with reacting to chemistry with men in general by practicing on an individual man especially one who is so far not interested in dating you or a potential relationship. This reality also affects your “experiment “. 

[kim42]

20 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

To me he is an individual person. So even if this approach “works” the sort of attraction can vary as can so many individual circumstances so IMO you might get calmer with this particular person despite being attracted - certainly not by hanging out once in a distant city - but sure over time two individuals can get accustomed to each other and all sorts of expectations can shift. But men are individuals who come in all sorts of flavors. And even if you feel excited with him AND manage your expectations it doesn’t mean anything with a different person. For me I learned simply with the mantra that until I was exclusively dating someone each date was the last. Unless and until there was a specific time place plan for another date. I didn’t read into signs and I paid no mind to vague or tentative plans or references to plans. And in this way even if I was wildly attracted I was able to enjoy it as one date. One and done. And I acted accordingly given my mindset that each date was the last.
 

Once we were exclusive I “expected” that we’d be together once or twice a week and typically most weekend nights. I didn’t expect we’d get married. I didn’t expect we’d be together in a year if we’d only been dating a couple months. 
I had varying levels of attraction for individuals. Which to me is normal. Men are individuals.

So if I was wildly attracted but knew he’d be relocating or knew he was dating around my ability to manage my expectations was easier than  if I was wildly attracted and he was available to date. For example. 

Lest I be accused or projecting I’m not. At all. This is my personal perspective. I’m not a fan of most generalizations about men or how to react to being attracted to “men”.  

Maybe because I’ve always had platonic male friends for the last 40 plus years and dated many different men.
I never tried to learn about how to deal with reacting to chemistry with men in general by practicing on an individual man especially one who is so far not interested in dating you or a potential relationship. This reality also affects your “experiment “. 

Ok, Batya, I'm glad this worked for you, I'm going to try a different approach and see how it goes.

[Batya33]

2 minutes ago, kim42 said:

Ok, Batya, I'm glad this worked for you, I'm going to try a different approach and see how it goes.

Sure. Totally your risk to take. Nothing actually “works” in that sense. My goal was marriage. Full stop. Therefore I couldn’t risk wasting time on unavailable men or getting attached to unavailable men such that I’d forgo opportunities to meet other men. I couldn’t risk experimenting in the way you plan and risk getting jaded or cynical.  
But I mean for me it didn’t work like when you follow a recipe. It just lessened certain downsides and increased the chances of me finding the right match for me.  You might have very different goals when it comes to dating and relationships.

Right now you say your goal is to learn how to be less anxious while on dates. You think you will learn this by hanging out with this man when you are in his city. 

[kim42]

7 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

Sure. Totally your risk to take. Nothing actually “works” in that sense. My goal was marriage. Full stop. Therefore I couldn’t risk wasting time on unavailable men or getting attached to unavailable men such that I’d forgo opportunities to meet other men. I couldn’t risk experimenting in the way you plan and risk getting jaded or cynical.  
But I mean for me it didn’t work like when you follow a recipe. It just lessened certain downsides and increased the chances of me finding the right match for me.  You might have very different goals when it comes to dating and relationships.

Right now you say your goal is to learn how to be less anxious while on dates. You think you will learn this by hanging out with this man when you are in his city. 

Batya, I respect that you have a different opinion, that's ok, I don't expect everyone on this forum to understand me, and I think I've already explained myself regarding this subject.

[Jaunty]

Less than a month ago, September 27, you wrote:

Quote

This is not exactly how it was but as I said, I don't want to analyze what he did or didn't do anymore, I stopped talking to him for a reason and I'm trying to move on.

What happened to trigger such a turnaround?