My boyfriend wants to fix things before he propose

[Cherylyn]

I remember when my husband and I were dating.  We discussed marriage,  our goals,  hopes and dreams,  had a brief courtship and we were (and still are) very content.  We did not argue because we had nothing to argue about.  We were compatible,  shared same values and looked forward to a bright future together.  We are settled in the suburbs with our two sons.  I was a SAHM for several years. 

Since you and your boyfriend are arguing now,  these arguments will not go away.  Cut your losses and move on.  He's not the one for you.  He isn't prepared for marriage and if both of you marry,  more problems will arise and divorce is a messy hassle. 

Never make deals by saying you've improved with anticipation for a ring.  Any self improvement should not be goal oriented towards marriage.  You know yourself better than anyone.  Personality and character building are for you as a person;  not meant to impress others or be on your best behavior because you want to be married and hopefully harmonious.  You do it for yourself.  Develop your own being until it is no longer self conscious and then you proceed to attract the right type of men dependent upon your personal morals.  Do it in that order.  Any other way gets complicated. 

Any time a relationship needs to be fixed is a red flag because if a relationship is sound,  there is nothing to fix in the first place. 

Blissful relationships are peaceful,  secure and genuinely happy.  Anything that needs to be fixed is a warning that trouble is already brewing and an inevitable explosion is in the near horizon if not already. 

[Batya33]

Why don't you propose to him? I mean you live together so this traditional stuff -I mean that ship has sailed!

Also if he thinks a friend is teasing you harmlessly he's not going to read your mind and or stick up for you. Do you test him a lot since you feel insecure that you don't have the title?

Agree with Canuck.

[hannarivers]

I did have a talk with him today, to make things clear. He said he didnt have any problems with me and he loved me as is, just the everyday arguing. I told him that our last arguement was one and half a week ago and asked him why he might feel like it happens every day. He said that it is the after effect that makes him feel like that, and I suggested him to work with this feeling instead of complaining about non existent arguements. I offered to use the next six months to work harder, so he can tell me at our anniversary how he decided about us. If he feels like he grew up, step up, if he did not, we will see. I will definitely keep on working with my therapist. 

Thank you for your help! 

[boltnrun]

Marriage does not make arguments and incompatibilities go away. It actually exacerbates them. 

I feel your boyfriend is actually being very mature. He doesn't want to get married just because it's been four years and he needs to meet your arbitrary timeline. I feel he wants his marriage to be for life. And he's right to be wary.

9 minutes ago, hannarivers said:

If he feels like he grew up, step up, if he did not, we will see.

I hope you didn't say this to him. This tells him you don't respect him and view him as an immature child. Who would want to marry someone who feels they are superior to them?

[Batya33]

51 minutes ago, hannarivers said:

I did have a talk with him today, to make things clear. He said he didnt have any problems with me and he loved me as is, just the everyday arguing. I told him that our last arguement was one and half a week ago and asked him why he might feel like it happens every day. He said that it is the after effect that makes him feel like that, and I suggested him to work with this feeling instead of complaining about non existent arguements. I offered to use the next six months to work harder, so he can tell me at our anniversary how he decided about us. If he feels like he grew up, step up, if he did not, we will see. I will definitely keep on working with my therapist. 

Thank you for your help! 

So you’re allowed to dismiss his feelings and but if he does the same to you you are hurt.  To him it feels like you argue every day. Feelings aren’t facts. But it’s how he feels. He replays it in his head and feels the after effects so it feels  like a daily occurrence. Your logic is correct but if so why if he says to you your feelings aren’t valid because you misunderstood- what you’re saying is “nonexistent “ why is that not ok ?

So you celebrate your dating anniversary and yet you don’t celebrate being “just a girlfriend “   I don’t see where your telling him this timeline and having it based on a dating anniversary when you’re unhappy being just a girlfriend makes any sense  

 

[MissCanuck]

1 hour ago, hannarivers said:

If he feels like he grew up, step up

Do you genuinely not get how condescending this is? 

Even if you didn't say this aloud, it's very telling that you think this way. He is not the only one with growing up to do. 

[hannarivers]

45 minutes ago, MissCanuck said:

. He is not the only one with growing up to do. 

This is why I said I will keep on with therapy. 

You guys seem to not understand me. It is his right to not marry me. But it is his responsibility to break up if he feels like he wont propose. Because I cant see inside of his head. I only know that I wont be his girlfriend for 5-6 years, so I can start looking for a husband at the age of 28-29. Nope. He has to be honest with me and either say "I will give you a ring before 123" or "we should break up, because you want marriage and I dont". It is only about trust. Either I trust him that he will inform me in half a year, or I dont and I wasted my time on someone who couldnt decide / decided to keep me as long as it was comfortable for him. I never said he must marry me. I said it is my must to get engaged around 4 years together. He has the right to give or not give a ring, and I have the right to say I want it at 4. He only has to cooperate and inform me about his decision

[bluecastle]

1 hour ago, hannarivers said:

I did have a talk with him today, to make things clear. He said he didnt have any problems with me and he loved me as is, just the everyday arguing. I told him that our last arguement was one and half a week ago and asked him why he might feel like it happens every day. He said that it is the after effect that makes him feel like that, and I suggested him to work with this feeling instead of complaining about non existent arguements.

I'm just going to let you know how this looks to me, for whatever it's worth. 

He told you the level of arguments are concerning to him, and in response you explained how he was wrong: it's not every day—in fact, it has been nine days since the last argument. He then clarified: that the cumulative effect is that he feels like you two exist in a state where you are either arguing or between arguments, and this is upsetting to him. In response you told him he needs to work on this feeling rather than complain about arguments that don't exist. 

If I were in his shoes, I would feel pretty unheard after that talk and deeply troubled by that. 

[bluecastle]

3 minutes ago, hannarivers said:

and I wasted my time on someone who couldnt decide / decided to keep me as long as it was comfortable for him

I just want to say that I hope, as you get a little older and mature, you will come to see the person who wrote about relationships like this differently than the person you see today in the mirror.

Marriage is a goal of many people. I'm not one of them, but I get that, respect it. Still, marriage should be much more than a box to check off, and check off STAT, but the celebration of a connection that is bigger—always—than the label. If you're already chalking up these four years as a "waste" if they don't result in a diamond on your finger, you are missing out of the best and most important parts of connecting with a human being, to say nothing of the stuff that is actually essential for a marriage to thrive.

[boltnrun]

A ring on your finger is very different from an actual marriage. A ring is a symbol of a lifelong commitment between two people who have pledged to share their lives and to love, honor and respect one another.

You seem to care more about the ring and your timeline than the realities of day to day life as a married couple. And you seem to think he's the one who needs to meet your timeline regardless of the state of your relationship. 

As the old commercial says, that's not how it works. That's not how ANY of this works. 

[Batya33]

He is not obligated to end the relationship just because he doesn't want to propose now.  Or ever.  If he's "not ready" and doesn't know when/if he'll be ready, I'd take that as a never -for your purposes -don't "wait".  If you knew he was never going to marry you how long would you stay? At that time tell him firmly and politely that you two are on different pages about marriage to each other and that to please not contact you for any reason unless he's ready to set a wedding date.  And at that time if you're still interested and available you'll consider it.

The way you talk about rights and obligations in this situation is kind of - scary and concerning!

[Coily]

25 minutes ago, hannarivers said:

 But it is his responsibility to break up if he feels like he wont propose. Because I cant see inside of his head. ... He has to be honest with me and either say "I will give you a ring before 123" or "we should break up, because you want marriage and I dont". It is only about trust. Either I trust him that he will inform me in half a year, or I dont and I wasted my time on someone who couldnt decide / decided to keep me as long as it was comfortable for him. I never said he must marry me. I said it is my must to get engaged around 4 years together. He has the right to give or not give a ring, and I have the right to say I want it at 4. He only has to cooperate and inform me about his decision

If you are so unhappy why must HE take all the actions here? If you don't think he'll comply with your wishes, and your demands; then why don't you break up?

 

I usually advocate working on things, but I'll be frank; I would expect to see you BF on here in 2-3 months after engagement and telling us how trapped unheard he feels in his cold relationship. It's like you are drawing up a legal document for his indenture as husband. Not a man you cherish and want to spend your life with, if you really do then it's not coming across well.

With this attitude right now, I hope for his peace of mind he runs for the hills. If you can't see how much unreasonable pressure your putting on him, I think you need to pause wanting to married to him or anyone.

[Jaunty]

 

14 hours ago, hannarivers said:

  

14 hours ago, hannarivers said:

My boyfriend of almost 4 years told me throughout the years that he wants to propose,  

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I changed so so much for the better in the last few months, all the people around me said that. I think I deserve the trust that we can work on it while I am already his fiancée. I proved myself, I went from a complete beserk of a person to a caring, calm, communicating, understanding one. I changed my bad habits,

 

I understand that his position here would be hurtful, but I'm sorry to tell you that you are being unreallistic.

If you have been a beserk person with bad habits for the better part of 4 years, he is right to need more than the "last few months" of changes for the better to be able to trust that things really will be different.

Honestly I hope that you are showing him gratitude for staying with you through the bezerker years and not just pressuring him to do things on your own timeline.  

Marriage is not just about you.  He's a full 50% participant.

[Jaunty]

8 hours ago, hannarivers said:

Okay. Then, please help me out here. Lets say he does something hurtful. I will make up a scenario that is fake. We have a group gathering. His friend tells me something insulting, eg, "stop acting like you can cook, you are definitely not a chef". I tell my boyfriend that he didnt say a word when his friend said that. So he comes to me saying "honey, you know how he is, it was just a joke". So I tell him how it was hurtful that he didnt believe me or just told me that next time he will stand up for me,

 

I know this is a hypothetical situation that didn't happen, but just for your elucidation - you would be in the wrong here.

If you run and "tattle" on your guy's friend and expect him to go to this person and call him out - that's not the way it works.   You are there to speak for yourself to the person who insulted you. 

It might be a little different if someone insulted you egregiously in front of your boyfriend.  Maybe it would be more appropriate for boyfriend to say something.  But "you are definitely not a chef" does not fall into the category of "egregious" insults.  Yes, it would have been a joke.  In questionable taste, but a joke.  

I'm sorry but you are coming off here as tremendously high maintenance.   

[Batya33]

So here's the thing - sure often the man proposes of course but -really often - it's  formality.  I mean the couple knows they intend to marry -they're mutually into it and even if it's a "surprise" as to when -that's just part of the fun of it.  Typically - the man is not regularly saying "I plan on proposing" because it's redundant -there's no need to say that if the couple both intend to marry.  

My husband actually did state it pretty directly - we intended to marry- the timing was affected by our long distance relationship -so I was going to relocate but we actually didn't know yet exactly where given his career and job situation.  When I was almost 41 I told him we should start trying to conceive -we weren't even engaged yet.  He said "would we get married sooner if you got pregnant" (meaning he'd like that just fine but it might mean earlier than we'd both planned").  I said simply "yes!" 

Literally -this was under two minute conversation -there was no need to "discuss The Relationship" and neither of us had any questions about being together and being married.  Also we each trusted the other 100% that we were going to marry and he didnt question my "yes" because - that's the whole point - if you're intending to marry there are no trust issues about whether the person "really means it."

As it turned out I got pregnant close to the time we'd have gotten married anyway.  He did officially propose -it was a surprise and very sweet! - but -we already knew we'd marry soon, we already were committed so it was just  - really fun and sweet to put a ring on it!

I'm all understanding about resolvable jitters -it's a big step! - I'm totally in on couples having slightly different time lines -to be honest when he asked me that I mean to me it was a given -if I was fortunate enough to get naturally pregnant then -of course we'd marry before the baby was born.  If we'd have had to have these really stressful discussions that go to the core of whether to marry -I mean -what's the point of starting out in this new sort of commitment with all that stress and bad blood?

(We've been married almost 15 years -I wore a blue dress to our wedding so I'd have something blue -- and because we were having a boy!!)

[Cherylyn]

2 hours ago, hannarivers said:

I did have a talk with him today, to make things clear. He said he didn't have any problems with me and he loved me as is, just the everyday arguing. I told him that our last argument was one and half a week ago and asked him why he might feel like it happens every day. He said that it is the after effect that makes him feel like that, and I suggested him to work with this feeling instead of complaining about non existent arguments. I offered to use the next six months to work harder, so he can tell me at our anniversary how he decided about us. If he feels like he grew up, step up, if he did not, we will see. I will definitely keep on working with my therapist. 

Thank you for your help! 

Everyday arguing is NOT normal and a huge red flag.  It's no wonder he hesitates getting married.  Everyday arguing escalates into endless arguing later and into marriage.  No one wants that.  Even if arguing isn't everyday,  it's still excessive and too frequent for his liking not to mention it's unhealthy in a relationship to fight regularly. 

Don't bargain with him.  Don't offer to work harder and be on your best behavior as a bargaining chip towards marriage because now you sound desperate and insecure and no one likes that.   You sound like you're cutting a deal and begging. 

Pump the brakes on the marriage topic.  Slow your roll.  Take it one day at a time and then revisit the marriage subject AFTER both of you feel comfortable and secure enough to have a calm discussion about this.  The gauge would be no issues nor arguments for a long time and see where that takes you.  If there are issues and consistent arguments about anything,  marriage doesn't sound like a blissful,  good idea.  

Marriage should be happy;  not fraught with problems prior to marriage and during marriage otherwise it's a train wreck.

[LootieTootie]

Please know that you are not entitled for anyone to do anything for you - boyfriend or not.

3 hours ago, hannarivers said:

...But it is his responsibility to break up if he feels like he wont propose.....  He has to be honest with me and either say "I will give you a ring before 123" or "we should break up, because you want marriage and I dont". 

If you possibly can't self-sooth and therapy hasn't helped you in managing your ego, you should dump this poor man and look for another therapist. Stop forcing and fighting this man to give you something he clearly does not want to do.

[shouldhavelearned]

Be careful

You might not want what you think you want

 

If you have to pressure him this much, it's not a good sign

[SooSad33]

16 hours ago, hannarivers said:

He explained he thought his friend would never insult me, but I feel insulted. What is next? 

Also, how can couples wait more than 4 years to propose? I would feel like my partner doesnt want me. This is what I feel now. He builds our room at this very moment. He built a table for my pet. He texted me in the morning that his mom cooked m favorite meal and she sent me some. How can he care about me this much and still not enough? Im willing to listen, if someone can explain to me how a proposal is not a must after 4 years with a person you love and want so much, with the person you say "I want to work on this with you, I want to wake up with you every day" 

You feeling 'insulted' , imo is on you.  We can't control what others say or behave, but we CAN control how we handle it.

I agree with others in the fact that you two have a lot of growing to do yet.  And your 'expectations & wants', may be a little much, seeing your past & damages done 😕 .

YOU need to just work on accepting what is for now.  No pressures. Especially if you do want this to work out.  If he's harbouring resentment atm, he's not going to feel like proposing.

You say you're in therapy - or you were?  I'm thinking, it might be an idea to discuss this with your therapist. So that you can work through your issue's some more.. Realistic views etc.

And I will add.  My oldest never married his gf until they were in a 'good place', which took them over 7 years.  My brother never dated for 10 years until he felt he did find the one and they're nicely still together after 6 years.  ... My uncle never did marry, but they still had a good life and 2 boys! 🙂 .  So, see, the 'answer' is not marriage or to be proposed to.

As I mentioned, it sounds like some damage has been done over your time together, these last 4 years and if anything, he may be feeling too pressured and even uncertain about this.  He will do so if or when HE feels right to do so.

If you can't handle this, then maybe it's time to say enough.  As no one should feel they have to do this.  But do it because they DO feel it's right .

If you choose to stay and give this all some more time, fine.  Keep working on the positive with him.  Try being kind & reasonable and maybe learning to let some things slide.  You are both adults here.  Respect, communication and trust is needed in a successful relationship.. do you have this?  (  Maybe even consider some couple therapy to continue to work on clearing the air between you's?).

Anyways, as your post reads, that he wants to fix things before he proposes.. I agree, totally!  No need to rush into the idea of a proposal.  Not, if he doesn't feel right doing so.  You need to work on accepting this.  Can you?  I don't see why not ( unless you're just feeling it's too late - or too damaged now, to the point you're wondering IF he even feels the same anymore...?).  That, you'd have to ask him.

 

[MissCanuck]

8 hours ago, hannarivers said:

It is only about trust.

You are way off the mark on this, but I don't think you yet have the maturity to see that or understand it. It is not only about trust. 

You can break up with him if you are this displeased and unhappy. In fact, it's probably a good idea. This relationship is unhealthy on a number of levels and probably won't last another year or so anyway. 

[hannarivers]

I am grateful for your replies. Although, most of you still dont understand me. I said "he should either break up or propose"  because I cant see inside of his mind, but he knows I want to marry him, and if he knows he wont, then let me go. Every one has boundaries, mine is to only date someone who wants to marry. I dont see a problem with that. My girl friend's boundary is to date men who dont wanna marry, or have kids. And that is fine, too. 

And also, please stop talking about everyday arguing when it is not true. We have about one major misunderstanding that we always talk through and resolve, and 2-3 small "you did something bad" talks each month. We are young, inexperienced, so obviously there are more mistakes, especially from his side, considering he never had a gf. I stated he feels like it is everyday, for some reason. I cant do anything about that, because it is not a fact, it is a feeling. 

[Wiseman2]

36 minutes ago, hannarivers said:

. I said "he should either break up or propose"  

He seems to like things exactly as they are so why would he do that?

[Batya33]

48 minutes ago, hannarivers said:

because I cant see inside of his mind, but he knows I want to marry him, and if he knows he wont, then let me go.

With all due respect you don't understand you - you have tunnel vision for your ring and cake-topper groom - and you choose to dismiss his feelings of significant doubt feeling like there's this constant tension -either you're arguing, cooling off from arguing -and then he's anticipating the next argument because he feels it's inevitable. 

Don't dismiss feelings because then dismiss yours too -your feelings about marriage and timing - those are feelings not facts - you feel you want marriage to him and feel strongly about when that should happen. I didn't marry my now husband the first time we were engaged because I was having serious doubts - panicking too -so anxious -they were not facts. 

Because taking vows is based on both -head and heart - and my heart -for whatever reasons I didn't know then -wasn't sufficiently in it and my body was telling me "no" -it was awful but no it wasn't about facts.  You know how a person can be bullied in middle school and 20 years later see their bully and it feels like it happened that day? That's how he feels by analogy and it's unfair for you to dismiss that and basically tell him "get over it - it's not a fact -we haven't argued in 9 days and 9 hours."  You don't like when he dismisses your feelings, right?

(When I married my husband 11 years after our first cancelled wedding - my feelings were - peaceful, loving, excited, natural, magical -all rolled into one - the facts all supported that we were a right and good match - but I can't imagine getting married in any other way -did I have jitters? Not really on my wedding day at all -that I recall -but did I -for sure at times -becoming a married mom who was relocating 800 miles away where I knew no one from where I'd lived over 40 years? - I mean for sure -but having been through the panicky feelings when it's not right -those jitters were fleeting, resolvable - normal for all this transition -not a blaring warning sign like your bf has).

Couples cannot see inside anyone's mind nor should they try -which is why when couples are together in a healthy way, their love, trust, respect and caring means there's no reason to see inside someone's mind -because you trust each other's words and actions.  You're not with an infant or baby where as parents we try to learn to decipher their cries to see what could be needed and then try to fill that need.

All he is saying is sometime in the distant future he might feel differently and be ready to propose. And he's given you specific reasons why he's not ready now and what would need to change -for him -to feel ready.  Which -obviously -might not be on your time table. He doesn't owe you anything more. 

You've told him you want marriage on a specific timetable.  If he knows right now he never wants to marry you then sure he should end things but he's basically saying that for your purposes. 

Because his doubts - his level of doubts - mean "no" to marriage.  Sure -tell him "do me a favor -tell me if you realize you never want to marry me ok because then we should go our separate ways."  I bet he says -honestly - he doesn't think it's a never -but he doesn't know when.  And then if it were me -given your timetable -I wouldn't "wait" (or obviously you can propose and get a definitive answer).  

 

[hannarivers]

1 hour ago, Batya33 said:

you choose to dismiss his feelings of significant doubt feeling like there's this constant tension -either you're arguing, cooling off from arguing

No. I dont dismiss it, I just cant help him process HIS feelings. The way he couldnt help me process MY feelings when he broke my trust with his porn use. Of course, he could help with reassuring me by updating me about his state (eg. is he doing good, did he fail his no-porn practice, etc) but only I could work on a constant fear of him lying again. I built my trust again. I can tell him "hun, we did not argue in two weeks", but it is his job to work with it. I never said he has to solve my uncomfortable feelings, just understand that they exist and believe me. I understand him and I believe that he feels this way, but HE has to realize it is not the reality. 

1 hour ago, Batya33 said:

I didn't marry my now husband the first time we were engaged because I was having serious doubts - panicking too -so anxious -they were not facts. 

Wow, I see. If I were him, I would have definitely thought that you would never marry me if you missed out the first time. My perspective is that even if times were and sometimes are hard, I was never unsure about him. Not even when I was completely in disgust after finding out about his little porn fantasies. Literally broke my heart when I saw pornstars names in his search history and I still felt like we had to overcome this. I just accepted the fact that he might not have been into me as much sexually in the past as he is now. But Im trying to concentrate on now, that NOW he adores me, and I trust him that even if porn comes up again, he will never ruin us again. 

 

[Whirling D]

I have a hard time coming up with things that everybody else hasn’t eloquently said, but I will try to improvise a bit here…

From my perspective, he is probably freaked out by a lot of your seemingly wanting to control him.  You may not feel that this is what you are doing, because you have your own boundaries and your own expectations… But if you put yourself in his place, this is likely what he interprets happening…

“She wants me to do something that I am not yet ready to do. I don’t yet feel we are stable enough to make this commitment, but I love her and I hope someday I can make that commitment… However, she wants it her way and on her timeline, and she basically told me it was over if I don’t comply with her demands. That makes me feel very anxious and insecure, because I feel anxious about the future. I don’t want to be controlled like that and to be told what to do, maybe even like I am a child, because she doesn’t like something I do, like watch porn.  

I have tried hard to make changes, and I see that she has too, but I’m just not ready to commit at this particular moment. I don’t feel emotionally safe yet. That’s really what it comes down to. I don’t yet feel emotionally safe to let her past my guard, because it hurt me when she threatened to leave, and I’m still feeling a huge amount of anxiety about that and our disagreements and arguments. If she would only give this some time and space, and allow me to work on my own indecision and problems without feeling pressured to do that on her timeline. I think that would make a world of difference“. 

Do you see where this is all going?

Another example… You say that he doesn’t want you to touch him or hug him or have sex with him… He doesn’t feel emotionally safe, for all the reasons stated above.  Not feeling emotionally safe can kick feelings of intimacy out to the curb in a nanosecond.

if you truly love this guy, and it seems that you do, you will love him enough to back off, and give him the space to process what has happened over the last few months, much of it good, as you say, but some of it not so good… You will give him that space, and stop trying to control his actions. Let him be the captain of his own ship. That’s the most loving thing you could do. If it doesn’t meet your approval, then you know what to do.
 

You can’t try to coerce someone into something that they are not ready to do. That is manipulation, and it’s a very bad way to begin a lifelong partnership.