A vent: it's difficult to be the bigger person even when you're supposed to be

[JoyfulCompany]

Hi, guys. Writing under affect here. May or may not publish, depends on how it feels when I'm done.
In short:
 - my vent is about my relationship with my father - it has always been difficult;
 - currently he's ill, he has advanced pancreatic cancer, it has been a hell for him in the last 8-9 months since he got the diagnosis (12 rounds of heavy chemo - no shrinking, also no further growth (yet));

Long version:
We're a small family. Mother, father, brother, me. Everyone else is gone now. Me and my brother are between 35-40, never married, no kids (both had some LTRs), both live each on their own separately in a bigger city. The lack of "major" commitment is a topic of its own, but here I mention it as to which family we're mostly dedicated to - our family of origin.

By difficult I mean my opinion was never asked and it never mattered. My father has problems with alcohol since I can remember. He was "a functional member of society" but in the evenings he would drink too much and start fights and during the years he was able to burn a lot of bridges with people (while he believed to be always right). Or he would start those endless monologues where me and/or my brother were forced to listen about various drama, then were accused of stuff (unfairly so), then more drama, then redemption. If any of us cried during those sessions, it was because we were "sissies" and were "trying to manipulate him" or whatever. My brother hardly ever cries, even when deeply affected, but I easily do. So, emotionally we were never close with my dad (none of us).
Another stroke in the painting - he's racist, homophobic, sexist and all (all these values are super important to me with the opposite sign of his). Has awful language. Short temper. Shouts easily. Super stubborn.

I've been in a lot of therapy - every week, or every 2 weeks for several years (I stopped going recently). And only in the last 2-3 years I had some breakthrough other than shutting down and avoiding and overthinking every word he told me - I started to speak back. If things were already heated - to shout back. Another twisted thing - a part of me is super proud I can finally get angry and express it, even though it's far from "functional."

There's is this twist where we always loved each other in a weird way. He was brought up in an effed up way and I believe he did his best to be a better parent than his own parents. He had both my and my brother's backs during university when he provided financially for us. He was not obligated to do so but was a matter of duty/pride and actually - care on his side to do it (оf course there was also a strong opinion what we were allowed to major in if we wanted that support). It's only recently we're able to say "I love you" to each other - that was not part of our relationship when growing up.

Anyway anyway anyway... it was a hell when he got the diagnosis last November. The 4 of us lived in a complete shock for a couple of months. Nowadays we try to function somehow. I try to visit once a month, call often and I keep all the medical documentation (went to gather it from different cities) and I try to consult with surgeons and oncologists, etc. I'm currently visiting - one part is to see each other, another is to gather another set of documents to try to accelerate some procedure.

When he got the diagnosis at first he stopped smoking (heavy smoker) and drinking but it lasted for maybe 2 months. He's back with his habits since. In his situation I feel it's none of my business to tell him how he should live the rest of his days (I really hope we have a lot of those, but you know, the diagnosis is very crushing).

So, here we are tonight - mother, father, me. Dining, having drinks (me included) and laughs. Until he raises the topic of how me and my brother should finally decide how best to split our "inheritance". Excuse me - both of our parents are still alive (besides the dire diagnosis) and everything is under their names. I agreed to proceed with whatever they wanted but insisted we need to all gather, the 4 of us, to talk about this and not in the evening and not over glasses of alcohol. He got super mad and shouted and all. Said I was not listening (he said/shouted the same thing 10 times and interrupted me every time I tried to get my point). Called me a dirty sh*t for repeating I think it's a matter of the whole family... Called me a "drunk goose" when I got mad on my own by this repetitive disrespectful conversation and started crying and shouting. Said I did nothing good for 40 years (I'm 35). Tried to manipulate me with how he'll be gone tomorrow and I'm acting like this (btw, even before any diagnosis he liked to say "well, you have only one father for better or for worse", "you can do as you please when I'm gone", "I'm headed at the graveyard anyway", etc.). Pointed at his body, he's very skinny since he started the chemo. I know it, I see it, it pains me so much but his ways are so twisted sometimes.

I hate that. I hate it. It already kills me I may lose him soon. I try not to dwell on those thoughts (I try to stay in the present, do what I can, spend more time together) but I have nightmares about it sometimes. I hate the ugly words he calls me sometimes. I don't believe them to be true, I let some of them slip by and laugh but others really hurt - I don't deserve them... I hate his entitlement. I hate he uses his diagnosis as another means to get his own way. And mostly I hate that in the gist of it we all love each other and want the same thing, yet he still feels the need to feel superior and force us into doing things in the exact way he wants them.

He has been such a champ going through chemo. Trying not to complain and trying to tell a joke every time he hears the worry in our voices. It crushes me. I love him so much but I hate how he's been treating me my whole life. I wish I could face everything he throws at me in a calm manner but I can't. I'm not there yet. It hurts me and it angers me so much sometimes.

He sort of tried to apologise for the "dirty sh*t" part being said under affect but insisted on the "drunk goose" and how my point was useless and stupid and I was not listening when I was not easy to let it all go. It took a lot of strength to not leave immediately. I always wished I could "disappear" when those stuff happened. Just in the "earth to open up and swallow me" way. But I'm not going anywhere. He needs me. I need him.

All of this is so stupid. I've been crying for hours. I guess I'm publishing this. That's my vent tonight. Thank you for reading.

[Jibralta]

I'm sorry you're going through this. I think you're doing a good job. 👍

[catfeeder]

(((Big HUG))) to you, JC. Have a good cry, you’ve certainly earned it.

Even without the complications of alcohol abuse and illness, you’ve reached the most common age of the tipping point where, for better or worse, we become the adult in the room while our parents regress into, for lack of a better word, children.

This imbalance is heightened as time goes on, and we discover that our parents are as manipulative as children, only they’re better at it. Add the fact that alcohol abuse traps the abuser in a state of perpetual adolescence, and so you recognize that you’ve been dealing with an advanced state of this imbalance for as long as you can remember, and long before you were ever prepared to recognize it as such.

Add to that your father’s illness and treatments and the stresses of your research and compounded responsibilities—all on top of grief.

So the first person to whom you owe a break is yourself. It’s hard to recognize yourself as heroic when the person of your primary focus turns hostile and slams you. But! Just because you can’t see this objectively doesn’t mean you must be sentenced to view yourself through your father’s limited and altered vision.

Explore whether you can adopt a hands off approach to your father’s declarations about anything at this time. There is no point in trying to manage him. It only upsets him, and in turn, he upsets you.

Allow your father to speak his mind regardless of who is present. Your family will cross each bridge as you come to it. Focus on the love.

Holding you in my thoughts.

[greendots]

I'm also sorry to hear that your going through this.

Catfeeder is on point. The only thing I have to add is: you matter, too! So please take some time to focus on you. Even if it's just for 5 minutes a day.

How is your relationship with your mother and brother?

Wishing you strength and wisdom to get through this. xx

[lostandhurt]

I too am an adult child of an  alcoholic. It changes us in ways you never even know until you get help understanding it all.  There are two books that helped me understand why I am the way I am and how growing up with alcoholic parents predisposed me to have these traits.  You may have already read them but here you go:

1. Adult Children of Alcoholics by Janet Woititz

2. The Adult Children of Alcoholics Syndrome by Wayne Kristsberg

Both are paper backs and easy reading besides being fascinating to me and a big discovery.

My father and I loved each other but his drinking was cause for embarrassment, fights, verbal abuse and a safety issue many times growing up.  I get what you are saying.  As I got older and still living at home he could see he had less and less control over me and when drinking he reacted badly to my independence and backbone. He was so proud of me but had a hard time saying the words to me but would tell anyone else that would listen, same goes for those three little words.  I love you was tough to say.  I tell you all this so you know this happens a lot and it affects you way more than you could ever imagine throughout your life.  Knowledge is key here so please get as much as possible so you can see clearly.

As far as your father being verbally abusive goes I will give you one last incident with my father that forced him to see he went to far.  I was just 18 and doing side jobs rebuilding engines and auto work trying to make some money and putting in long hours at our house.  He took issue to me working so late and told me to stop and come in the house but I was almost done with the car and needed to get it finished to get paid the next day.  Words were exchanged and his frustration with me standing up for myself got the better of him and he punched me in the mouth.  That was the first time and the last time he ever hit me in anger.  I took the punch pretty well but knew I could never beat up my own father no matter the circumstances so I spit blood down at his feet and walked away.  That simple act hurt him so badly. He was ashamed he hit me, he apologized the next day profusely with explanations of course and I just stood there and listened with no response. It changed everything then and there because I took back what had been taken from me.  My father threw me out not long after this because he was afraid it could happen again.

 I took a stand without taking a stand.  You can simply walk away without saying a word and that silence will do the talking for you.  Your father will have to relive his own words and try and justify them to himself. He will wonder will you come back, he will think he finally said or did the wrong thing.  It may not stick, it may not help him but it will help you from trying to defend yourself to the person you love that is hurting you with his words.

 Read the books as you may glean some info you did not already know from them. Stop fighting or arguing with an alcoholic, stop arguing with a racist, stop trying to act like everything is okay for you in this relationship.  You love him and will always love him but it needs to be on your terms, your comfort level while protecting your mental health. 

It is okay to walk away and catch your breath.

Lost 

[Kwothe28]

Pancreatic cancer is the worst kind. People literally live just months with that one. If he is in advanced stages of it, I am afraid there is not much time for him anyway. I am sorry.

That being said its understandable he maybe wants to know how his assets would be split. Though dunno why would he skip your mother since she is the next in line. But its not out of the ordinary where we live. My politician friend split assets with his brother after his dad died. His mom is still alive and well and lived with his brother. But brother didnt wanted her there after so she took a credit and bought an appartment for herself. My dad split us years ago but only with his own assets. He is also sick but still kicking. I think its better that way because I saw how they do it after the death and the ammount of arguments between siblings and needing lawyers and court is over the top. So maybe it wouldnt be the worst idea to have a conversation about that but its up to him how he would want to split it and to do it if he wants. So dunno why he gets mad at you.

Also, from that side your father reminds me on mine. He drinks occassionally and stopped smoking years ago because of health. Last time we had an argument he said I was rude to him(I wasnt), how he would tell my brother and sister and they will not talk to me etc. When I said how he should apologize because he made a mistake because of which the argument started he said "I am your father I dont need to apologize". Its useless to argue with that kind of people. For example, your father(as well as mine) is a narcissist. He is always right, thinks his own kind of race and gender is on top(my believes his name still holds some meaning and that just by mentioning it you get some kind of priviledges) and is refusing to listen to anything opposing to him. So are you really that surprised that after you put any kind of resistance to him, you get him shouting at you and trying to manipulate you?

You dont argue with the narcissist. Narcissists have poor emotional stability and low emotional inteligence so they are prone to argue and wont account your emotions into it at all(hence why you are "sissy" when you cry according to him), they will go for your self- esteem on purpose and will not respect you. So any kind of argument will not result in a good conflict resolution and therefore its useless. Being that he is sick and that he probably doesnt have much left, just ignore it next time no matter what he says. You need to practice not to get to you. 

[Batya33]

8 hours ago, greendots said:

Wishing you strength and wisdom to get through this. xx

I feel the same and I am sorry for your struggles.  I am glad you are getting such good input from people who have been through similar. I went through similar -but not to this extent -but my input would be repetitive.  So I simply repeat hugs and prayers and support.

[Starlight925]

3 hours ago, Kwothe28 said:

Pancreatic cancer is the worst kind. People literally live just months with that one. If he is in advanced stages of it, I am afraid there is not much time for him anyway. I am sorry.

That being said its understandable he maybe wants to know how his assets would be split. Though dunno why would he skip your mother since she is the next in line. But its not out of the ordinary where we live. My politician friend split assets with his brother after his dad died. His mom is still alive and well and lived with his brother. But brother didnt wanted her there after so she took a credit and bought an appartment for herself. My dad split us years ago but only with his own assets. He is also sick but still kicking. I think its better that way because I saw how they do it after the death and the ammount of arguments between siblings and needing lawyers and court is over the top. So maybe it wouldnt be the worst idea to have a conversation about that but its up to him how he would want to split it and to do it if he wants. So dunno why he gets mad at you.

Also, from that side your father reminds me on mine. He drinks occassionally and stopped smoking years ago because of health. Last time we had an argument he said I was rude to him(I wasnt), how he would tell my brother and sister and they will not talk to me etc. When I said how he should apologize because he made a mistake because of which the argument started he said "I am your father I dont need to apologize". Its useless to argue with that kind of people. For example, your father(as well as mine) is a narcissist. He is always right, thinks his own kind of race and gender is on top(my believes his name still holds some meaning and that just by mentioning it you get some kind of priviledges) and is refusing to listen to anything opposing to him. So are you really that surprised that after you put any kind of resistance to him, you get him shouting at you and trying to manipulate you?

You dont argue with the narcissist. Narcissists have poor emotional stability and low emotional inteligence so they are prone to argue and wont account your emotions into it at all(hence why you are "sissy" when you cry according to him), they will go for your self- esteem on purpose and will not respect you. So any kind of argument will not result in a good conflict resolution and therefore its useless. Being that he is sick and that he probably doesnt have much left, just ignore it next time no matter what he says. You need to practice not to get to you. 

This post is so true, especially the bolded.

I agree, it sounds like your father is a narcissist.  No, I am not a therapist, and I am not diagnosing.

But I grew up with a narcissist as a mother, who sounds very much like your father (addicted to something else, not alcohol).  Extremely opinionated, always right, etc.

A lot of narcissists are also racists/homophobes.  My mother always said she'd disown us if we married outside our race, or came out as gay.  We had family friends where in 2 cases, kids that we grew up with came out later in life, and my mother used to say, "Well that won't happen in our family.  I forbid it".  Disgusting, despicable, but as I learned, no argument with her worked.  People other than our race were "less than"; people outside of heterosexuality were "crazy".  Disgraceful.

What I did to cope was much like what you are doing now:  moved out & became self-sufficient (good for you!), and limited my contact with the FBV (female birth vessel) who, yes, gave me life, but not much else.  I would have cut contact completely, but I liked everyone else in the family, so in my limited times alone with her, I kept things super surface:  a new movie, the weather.

As for your situation, you do not have long, and his insistence on listening to him re:  the assets is something you can just listen to, nod, and agree with.  They are, after all, his wishes.

You are doing everything right.  You are on your own, you have sought therapy, you are there for him.  

But you are hurting, which I get.  You are mourning not only his impending passing, but the childhood that you wish you had.  The sit-com dad who makes funny family jokes, who cheers you on at games, who buys you hot dogs when mom says no.  You didn't have that, and I'm sorry.   

I know you don't want to hear this, but what gave me peace, finally, was my mother's passing.  Within two weeks, I was like....whew, it's over.  I know that's unpopular.  People say, "But it's your mother!!!", and I'm like, you have no idea what I had to deal with.  

I actually just read a book that popped up on a friend's feed called "I'm Glad My Mom Died", an autobiographical book by a former Nickelodeon star.  That book actually helped me realize, in retrospect, that I wasn't the only one without the picture perfect childhood, and neither are you.

 

[itsallgrand]

I'm so sorry for what you have gone through and what you are going through now. I'm sending so much love your way.

You are an amazing person. Not everyone would fight this hard to grow, learn, and lead with love. It's an admirable quality. It's ok to cry as much as you need to. It's human, you are going through incredibly difficult circumstances. It doesn't take away from your strength at all, and from where I am sitting you have shown incredible strength as a person.

 

[Jaunty]

I'm very sorry and I too think you are doing a good job of being true to yourself while trying to be by the side of your incredibly difficult father.   

Do you have any beloved friends or even superficial social friends you can prioritize spending some time with?  And / or something like a hobby or avocation that you love to do?

Sometimes what a person really needs in a situation like yours are times when the disease and the person who is dealing with that are not on your mind.   It might seem "wrong" but it's a good thing to have true breaks when the whole thing is off of your mind completely.   

[JoyfulCompany]

Thank you so much, guys. All of you, really. It feels wrong fishing for sympathy and support like this but I really needed it last night. I needed to pour it out somewhere. I'm alright and will be alright, just tired and sad today how unnecessary that is and always was.

 

@lostandhurt , I'm so sorry you've been through that, it pains me to imagine it. I admire how early you learned to stand your ground and integrity, I assume - all on your own, since you didn't have a good father figure to guide you. I think it shows incredible instincts you've quickly turned to wisdom. I'm sorry your father was capable of love but so sick and incapable of expressing it in any way you could feel supported and embraced in it. I hope you are able to feel warm, soothing, supportive love in your life now, no matter the form.

Thank you for the resources, I'll check them out. I think I haven't checked any deeper resources on the topic because I never felt justified to label my father as an alcoholic, maybe only once in my diary when I was 12-13. Because he was functioning, would never drunk drive, would not hit me (he kinda proudly liked to recall how I never needed it as it was enough that he shouted to see terror in my eyes). Plus all of this felt somewhat normalised in my country and time. There are much more severe and much clearer cases of alcoholism - with your father, for example. Other than that I believe the dynamic is the same, even though the severity is toned down. So it can be helpful to read something.

@Starlight925 I'm so sorry to read about your trauma and being robbed of love, warmth and acceptance when you were supposed to be given those. I would never judge anyone cutting ties with a parent or feeling better knowing that parent is no more. As they say - every child deserves a parent but not every parent deserves a child. I hope and wish you freedom from those burdensome times and free-flowing love. Because it bugs our ability to receive love, doesn't it?

@Kwothe28 thank you for your support. Being my "neighbour" I think you have a good idea of how the 90s were around here and why so many dads turned to alcohol. I'm sorry your father is no good example either. You know I've read a lot of your answers here and I do believe you're so far ahead (in your progressive thinking and empathy levels) of how you were brought up. Good for you. And I agree about the arguing. I learned I've lost a round the moment I engage in it.

I don't consider my father a true narcissist but rather "more narcissistic than some".

The assets are a non-issue, they were just the subject that escalated things. He wanted me and my brother to make decisions about assets who are not ours yet - i.e. between the 2 of us, I wanted it to be a conversation between the 4 of us. That was the fight about. There's zero greed or entitlement from any of the sides. I understand this is his way of showing he always thinks about us and cares and wants us to have some extra financial back when he's gone. But he again mistook the lack of instant agreement on my side as being irresponsible, avoidant, argumentative, audacious, disrespectful, etc. I listen well, it's part of my survival instincts, and I understand where he comes from. It just pushes his buttons when I don't agree and thank and praise. And it pushes them through the roof if I raise my voice. And it pushes my buttons being unfairly accused of something and called names. Recently I just leave the room when I notice he's been in his impossible mood. He gets offended by it but on the next day we act as if nothing happened. I had nowhere to go last night and the name calling triggered me a lot. He's the only person I scream at. But, oh my, do I scream...

Anyway, in the morning he came to the room I was sleeping in. Kissed me on the forehead, asked me to forgive him and asked me if I know how much he loves me. He never does that, never, usually asks "what now, are you still upset". It seems my screaming sobbing rage finally got to him that there's a line he shouldn't cross because it actually hurts people. I told him he was already forgiven. He is. He was even last night whilst it was happening. It just hurts. It hurts we finally have some closeness as he's about to be taken away by a horrible disease. It hurts he insists on his old patterns while we can all hear a clock ticking. And I know we'll most probably have one of these matches again and the irony is it would mean he at least has the energy for it and that's a good thing.

[JoyfulCompany]

Me and my bro are close friends now. It feels good to have someone understanding exactly what you've been through. We've supported each other through a lot in the recent years. What we have in common out of this situation growing up is the heightened anxiety, being super observant and overly aware of our surroundings, the pessimism and feeling of impending doom sometimes, the tendency to easily catastrophize when on autopilot. He has embraced a bit of the controlling behaviour (father) and I've embraced a little bit of the "passive, fearful, incompetent" behaviour (mother). So it happens that we clash. His coping mechanism in the alcohol-induces tension is to keep calm and rational. Which is another thing that pushes my father's buttons.

I have a lovely relationship with my mother since I moved out. The moment I stepped into adulthood she stepped back and respected and supported my choices and decisions. She accepts me as I am. Unconsciously I used to accuse her of not leaving my father and letting him often treat her as less than equal (he does even to this day). And let him treat us the way he did. But I'm pass that now. She's actually strong in a very subtle way. It's her decision, she stands behind it and I can respect that. Last night she took me for a walk to calm down, listened and validated my hurt. Her coping mechanism in the alcohol-induced tension is withdrawal and to remain silent or go to another room.

[lostandhurt]

Your father is an alcoholic plain and simple, functioning or not.  My dad drove a truck for a living and never had an accident or mishap.  He would bring home a 12 pack of beer each day after work and drink all but 3 which he would drink with lunch (he came home for lunch) and then the next day do it all over again.

 It is actually ironic that my father raised me to be tough and stand up for myself but when I did with him he only saw the little boy he raised, not a young man.  The father son dynamic is strange as we get older no matter who your dad is.

  These traits you and your brother have from growing up around him are something the books can help you understand for sure.  Don't be afraid of what you might learn, it will help I promise.

  I am all good and made it a point to not be like my father in the bad ways when raising my own son.  The thing is they aren't all bad all the time so focus on that as you learn and grow.  I pushed my father to go into rehab and he didn't make it out.  He died from detoxing at the age of 52.  I carry that with me to this day but the life he was living was no life, just a horrible existence.

 You have choices as you navigate your fathers illness.  He is who he is and there is no changing that now so when he becomes the abusive father simply excuse yourself and try again another day.

 When it is all said and done not having regrets is worth the world.

 Lost

[Kwothe28]

5 hours ago, JoyfulCompany said:

Being my "neighbour" I think you have a good idea of how the 90s were around here and why so many dads turned to alcohol.

90s were really something here. We had hyperinflation. Dad told me that once you get salary you spend it that day in whole. Because tomorrow it was worthless. For alcohol it was easy. Every house made their own. So that wasnt the issue. But lots of other stuff was just unobtainable when you need it. And my father was a factory engineer at the times with the land possesions where they at least wouldnt be hungry as lots of stuff they produced on their own. And even he struggled. It was even worst to people who just worked regular jobs and needed food, medications, stuff for kids etc. Lots of ilnesses our parents have can be contributed due to that stressful times sadly. 

 

5 hours ago, JoyfulCompany said:

It just pushes his buttons when I don't agree and thank and praise.

Yes, because of narcissoid tendencies. He only sees one solution and that is his own. All other solutions are not good. It has to be done in his own way otherwise you are at fault and bad things will happen. Yeah, again, I have a case like that.

Again, just dont let it get to you. Due to the whole situation you need to be there for him and cant put a distance. So, I am afraid you would need to hear what he says to one ear and release on other. Take care.

[Cherylyn]

I'm very sorry about your father's diagnosis.  My close friend's late husband was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer several years ago.  I understand.  It's a bad boy;  that chemo.  Nausea,  fatigue and irritability are unbearable.  🤢

I'm a daughter of a late alcoholic father.  He was also a wife beater,  womanizer,  smoker,  abruptly left my mother with 3 children with nary a penny of child support,  never visited his children and mercifully died leaving my mother with insurmountable debts.  She managed to pay off every penny of $450,000 debts,  saved her house from foreclosure and never filed for bankruptcy.  She toiled 3 jobs 7 days a week to provide for her family.  My mother is a 'Steel Magnolia.' 

As for your father,  I would remain calm and not very talkative.  I'd have grace and remain patient because your father's days are numbered. 😢  It's how I was during the last days and months of my late father's life.  We didn't interact too much yet we weren't arguing either.  I say the main goal is to be peaceful as best you can.  Don't provoke nor instigate.  Remain even keeled.  Be poised.  Carry yourself with aplomb because it's the best you can do for you and your family.  🙏