Becoming left on the shelf

[waffle]

On 8/26/2021 at 1:08 PM, Carnatic said:

I earn enough to pay my rent, my bills and to do what I want to do in life... I don't want to give the impression that my financial situation is a major obstacle to getting where I want to be in life. It could be better sure but it's not a huge deal. The last couple of years have been tough for us all, for obvious reasons, and many freelancers have lost a huge chunk of their clientele and are only now tenatively maybe getting one or two of those back. I'd rather not derail this thread with a deep dive into my finances if that's OK with everyone.

But you'll derail it with paragraphs upon paragraphs about your looks/weight? 

How many wealthy yet unattractive men do you see with hot younger women?  A lot right?  Miraculously the more $$ a man makes the less his attractiveness matters lol. Funny how that works.  Not that you want a gold-digger, but what does that tell you?  That there are other things just as important or even more important?  Again, you wouldn't want someone who was only interested in you because of money; similarly do you want someone who is only with you because of your looks?  

My point is don't over-focus on one thing.  Downplay your negatives and accentuate your positives (your intelligence, for one).  Everyone is going to have positives and negatives; identify yours and proceed accordingly.

 

[Carnatic]

15 hours ago, waffle said:

But you'll derail it with paragraphs upon paragraphs about your looks/weight? 

How many wealthy yet unattractive men do you see with hot younger women?  A lot right?  Miraculously the more $$ a man makes the less his attractiveness matters lol. Funny how that works.  Not that you want a gold-digger, but what does that tell you?  That there are other things just as important or even more important?  Again, you wouldn't want someone who was only interested in you because of money; similarly do you want someone who is only with you because of your looks?  

My point is don't over-focus on one thing.  Downplay your negatives and accentuate your positives (your intelligence, for one).  Everyone is going to have positives and negatives; identify yours and proceed accordingly.

 

Well yeah, but then those are conversations I tend never to have in day to day life.

The whole business/career thing sometimes just gets talked to death... it's one of those things that it seems everyone has an opinion on and wants to give you advice, sometimes contradictory. Like everyone, sometimes I run into things in my career that are challenging; lean spells, difficult clients, global pandemics etc. But I find myself trying to hide this from other people because even a momentary grumble about a bit of a rough day that lead to multiple suggestions from those around me about what I should be doing.

While it's usually well-meaning and some of the people offering advice have genuine experience to back it up you have to assess all this before you even think about following such advice, and some of it can be a little tiring and patronising in itself. I once let slip that I had a client who would only pay months late and once I'd badgered them long enough and immediately was told, at great length, that if problem clients won't pay then that's your failing, because you aren't strong and threatening enough to twist their arm, rather than theirs as they are entitled to do whatever they can get away with, and did I want their help strengthing my debt-collection procedures.

I don't know what you would maybe have said had I not said I didn't want to discuss it, for all I know it could have been the best advice on how to run a business or further my career I could have ever heard but I don't really have the capacity right now to make that assessment. For now I suppose I would say I'm all advised out when it comes to business matters.

[LaHermes]

On 8/30/2021 at 8:49 PM, Carnatic said:

but also I feel like if people here knew me in real life then they would probably know why I'm not considered attractive, romantically.

Now, Carnatic, that is indeed a rather cryptic remark.   And of course we only have you here in the form of writing which I see on my screen, and we only know you by what you tell us.  No chance of an identikit?   

Just as an aside. Your screen name suggests a type of music.  A shared love of music brings many people together. 

[Kwothe28]

What waffle was trying to say(at least how I interpret) has nothing to do with business advice. It has to do with how you present yourself. Or shall I say how you "sell" yourself. If you say to somebody "Oh, I am a freelancer", that means nothing. But if you say "I have a thriving freelancing business with many clients" that gets a different more exciting note. So when they ask how that is going you can say "Oh, its great, it pays well plus flexible working hours allow me to have time for music festivals that I like to visit". See how I turned something bland into something more presentable for people? Now you are not just somebody who works something from home, now you are somebody with legitimate business who loves music and has time for his hobbies. And that is what you are suppose to do. It doesnt matter if you are not the most handsomest, or even most exciting person out there. In reality, rarely who is. I know many guys that dont have too much to brag about, they are not pretty, lots of them has very low paying jobs etc. But they go by because they know how they present themselves. So, again, identify your strenghts and play by them.

[waffle]

It also helps to know that what women are looking for in a man is not necessarily the same as what men are looking for in a woman.  A lot of men just assume "I'm not attractive enough" when the problem could be something else entirely but they only focus on that because a woman's appearance is what's important to them.

 

[Carnatic]

On 9/3/2021 at 3:59 PM, LaHermes said:

Now, Carnatic, that is indeed a rather cryptic remark.   And of course we only have you here in the form of writing which I see on my screen, and we only know you by what you tell us.  No chance of an identikit?   

Just as an aside. Your screen name suggests a type of music.  A shared love of music brings many people together. 

Well, someone who heard my age shortly after meeting me for the first time (was a few years ago too) remarked 'bloody hell, you must have had a tough paper round'.

For those that don't know, that's a British expression that means you look a lot older than you are.

That's one example I can think of anyway, might sound silly to put so much stock in what one random person a few years ago said but in general people do tell me that I'm unattractive... not like constantly, but more often than I think must be normal; and I've certainly never been told the opposite before.

I wasn't even especially overweight at the time. I mentioned before that even when I'm exercising, eating healthy and all that stuff I'm still fat, just less so... well this was during one of these spells.

[Pleasedonot5]

14 minutes ago, Carnatic said:

Well, someone who heard my age shortly after meeting me for the first time (was a few years ago too) remarked 'bloody hell, you must have had a tough paper round'.

For those that don't know, that's a British expression that means you look a lot older than you are.

That's one example I can think of anyway, might sound silly to put so much stock in what one random person a few years ago said but in general people do tell me that I'm unattractive... not like constantly, but more often than I think must be normal; and I've certainly never been told the opposite before.

I wasn't even especially overweight at the time. I mentioned before that even when I'm exercising, eating healthy and all that stuff I'm still fat, just less so... well this was during one of these spells.

Well, maybe you are just big-boned, even when you lose weight. Several of my close guy friends are overweight, one is pretty lanky, and they are all in great relationships or married at the moment. And here I am, at average weight, decent frame/muscles, and I am really struggling in the ladies department right now lol. I think being absolutely ripped or jacked would help any guy's chances, but it is not necessary.

Solid charisma, confidence, a sense of humor, and/or having laudable passions or interests are attributes my friends have to varying degrees, and I think it has really helped them. I think working on these areas would help you, too. 

Now, again, if you have almost zero confidence because of the way you look...well, it would make sense to make certain changes in that area for the purposes of self-improvement, right? The "love yourself" advice is great, but it only goes so far. Rather, I prefer the practical approach: identify what you do not like, then change what you do not like, within reason. 

[boltnrun]

Overweight people get into relationships.  Even obese people.

I know of a man who is 5'5" and weighs 395 pounds and he has a lovely girlfriend.  My brother is married to a woman who probably weighs 250 pounds, and my brother is NOT obese.  So the weight isn't the issue, it's how you feel about yourself that's the main issue.

[LaHermes]

Yes. OP. I am well aware of the British expressions. Lol.  I am over here too. 

3 hours ago, Carnatic said:

in general people do tell me that I'm unattractive...

How very unkind of them!

So, you look a lot older than you are. Many people do, and others look younger than they are.  It's one of those things. 

3 hours ago, Pleasedonot5 said:

Solid charisma, confidence, a sense of humor, and/or having laudable passions or interests are attributes my friends have to varying degrees, and I think it has really helped them.

Yes, PDN. Above all a sense of humour is an invaluable asset. 

[Capricorn3]

3 hours ago, Carnatic said:

 but in general people do tell me that I'm unattractive...

I honestly can't get my head around this.  I mean, how does this even happen?  People just simply say, to your face, "geez dude, you're ugly", or "wow, you're really obese and ugly" ... I just can't for the life of me even begin to imagine how they would even fit this into a normal conversation with you.  😕.   (Then again, I've been living under a rock for a long time, lol).

[Carnatic]

1 minute ago, boltnrun said:

Overweight people get into relationships.  Even obese people.

I know of a man who is 5'5" and weighs 395 pounds and he has a lovely girlfriend.  My brother is married to a woman who probably weighs 250 pounds, and my brother is NOT obese.  So the weight isn't the issue, it's how you feel about yourself that's the main issue.

I agree that weight's not the main issue to be honest with you it's just that's the one that most people have addressed in their responses and then I respond to them and then suddenly we're here and I've ended up writing loads of stuff about my weight issues and turned this into an 'I can't get a girlfriend because I'm fat' thread.

I don't really think that at any point in this thread I've managed to find the rights words for what I'm feeling, and I'm surprised and taken aback by the amount of responses I've gotten. Thankful for it but also a little overwhelmed... especially when I wasn't really thinking at the time about what sort of responses I wanted, I didn't ask a clear question even though I know this is an advice site and advice will be given, but there aren't really websites for just getting things out in the open.

I haven't really responded properly to everything that's been said because I don't have the words to address everything, especially when I feel that someone has taken time to write a response but I want to clarify something that I didn't really express properly before, and I don't like rejecting offers of advice and I don't like to think that people are wasting their time writing responses to questions I didn't mean to ask, but I'm glad at least that people have taken the time.

I go through phases of feeling sad about my inability to find a partner, and I know I shouldn't be sad about that that life isn't just about sex/romance/love/affection/partnership etc. I'm never totally OK with the situation but I go through other phases where other things in life like friends, family and doing things I enjoy at least make me feel like I can go without a relationship for as long as it takes. Kind of in a bit of a sad mode at the moment, but like I say, the meds.

Really I just wanted to tell people that this is me, this is my life... and sometimes I'm sad about that. I honestly can't think of any good reason why I should hope or expect to experience love again. I know that it's unlikely that I am this person who is uniquely lacking in any attractive physical or mental qualities and can scold myself for thinking such silly thoughts (and so can other people) but that doesn't lead to me changing my ways if I genuinely cannot think of a single thing which I believe about myself which is attractive... so I just end up resigning myself to thinking that maybe there really is nothing... it's improbable but not impossible.

Also I don't know if I've accidentally given people the wrong impression about me but there are a few things, maybe just because people don't know much about me and there is the stereotype that when someone posts on an internet forum about being unlucky in love that they're probably a bit of a loner and that means I get a lot of advice to make friends and take up hobbies and stuff. Really I'm good for friends, I have plenty. I wouldn't claim to be some sort of social butterfly but I'm probably more extroverted than average and spend a lot of time doing different sorts of activities. If I have a friend who I know is lonely and wanting more of a social life then I'll make the effort to introduce them to people, I organise social events, and take the initiative if there's something I know someone will like. I try my hand at a few different things, most recently poetry as I'm a member of a poetry club, and photography (sadly I can never really excel in anything).

I've rambled again, and I've probably managed to mislead people again... but thanks at least for trying with me.

 

[LaHermes]

15 minutes ago, Capricorn3 said:

I honestly can't get my head around this.  I mean, how does this even happen?

Same here.  I just cannot imagine what kind of people would up and say that to someone, just like that.

You remarked:

"Really I'm good for friends, I have plenty"

These wouldn't, by any chance, be the people who tell you that you are unattractive!

I see, so it just someone very infrequently who makes what you call a quip. A good response would be: "You're no oil painting yourself!" lol. 

[Carnatic]

12 minutes ago, Capricorn3 said:

I honestly can't get my head around this.  I mean, how does this even happen?  People just simply say, to your face, "geez dude, you're ugly", or "wow, you're really obese and ugly" ... I just can't for the life of me even begin to imagine how they would even fit this into a normal conversation with you.  😕.   (Then again, I've been living under a rock for a long time, lol).

Thinking back I think it's always someone like a friend of a friend. Friends don't say unkind things to you and it's not like random people on the street do, but you get those social situations where someone feels like they have familiarity enough to make these sort of quips, which I think they're presuming that I'll take in good nature (after all, I must know what I look like and be able to laugh at myself), and I pretend that I do, but it hurts.

And I'm not saying this happens every day or anything like that... maybe less than once a year, but still enough for me to feel that it keeps happening, and it's not like there's other people saying the opposite.

[LaHermes]

7 minutes ago, Carnatic said:

sadly I can never really excel in anything).

Why not?  Everyone has one talent.

What kind of subjects do you photograph? 

Are you musical? I asked before about your screen name.

[Carnatic]

5 minutes ago, LaHermes said:

Why not?  Everyone has one talent.

What kind of subjects do you photograph? 

Are you musical? I asked before about your screen name.

I play the keyboard, not especially well, not well enough to play it for other people's enjoyment, but enough to play it for my own. Haven't spent longer than a few minutes noodling in quite some time.

I like travel photography, and street photography but it can be difficult to get in the right headspace for that during spells of depression so I do studio stuff aswell

The name thing is just a coincidence. It's the name of a student accommodation block I was living in way back when I created my account, originally relating to a French ship named after the Indian province and not the music that comes from it at all. I'd never even heard of the music style back then.

[mical]

That’s really cool you are into music! Keyboard is pretty fun and it is great you got lots of friends, means you are a fun great guy to have around!

I also totally get the idea you want to be true to yourself, authentic, and liked for who you are. 

A LONG time ago (over 20 years) I thought the same but took it a bit of an extreme.

I was tired of the “dating game” or whatever and just wanted to have fun playing music in a couple local bands and just staying after school jamming in the music room etc (was a music nerd), so I literally stopped caring and gained 40 lbs and yes I got really FAT! I was 240 lbs at 17 years old. I was even called earthquake by one girl 🤣

Then I got a call from a friend. He was in trouble and desperately needed help. He was sleeping with this older woman, her husband came home from work and wanted to attack him, he ran out of the house naked fearing for his life and wanted me to go to this boxing 🥊 class with him just to hide somewhere so he wouldn’t be found after school

So being a good friend I went to that boxing class. Almost felt like dying first time, but stuck with it. No joke, within 2-3 months lost all that fat, and was in best shape of life, almost had a six pack. Even did a bit of jogging and for first time in life girls would start whistling if I had my shirt of jogging.

I’d go to a bar and girls would try and take my shirt off, it was crazy I wasn’t use to that attention..Then played in couple other bands, moved to Europe years later, was on national television blah blah and had women fighting over after being on TV that night, not saying to brag but I have a point to say...

What I realized is that women are attracted to YOU but want your best version of yourself!

If you are your real authentic self but at your prime, being the best you can be, your truest self, that is what is attractive!

So whatever it is you love to do, if you try and be the best version of YOU, you’ll no doubt attract more and more women..

Also worth noting your location also plays role - if it’s a small village there definitely will be less options..

Also meeting that one great girl is kinda like meeting one of your best friends. You have plenty of friends, right? That’s great but how many of them are your closest best friends? Maybe 2-3? 
 

Like a best friend you’ve known all your life, it is something rare, you instantly got along great...well it’s a bit similar with finding that special girl.

 

Good luck!!

 

[Batya33]

I think it depends on whether he sees his best version of himself as being a person who would attract women who would be all over him physically and be sort of groupies.  If that is the sort of attention and company he craves more power to him.  It sounds like you thoroughly enjoyed it so it was a perfect fit for you.  And you helped your friend by going to boxing classes with him. Win win. 
I do like the general goal of course of best version of you.  An overweight person can be the best version of himself or herself depending on how it’s defined.

I do know when I dated in a major city for over 20 years a woman who was overweight had a much much harder time attracting men especially at singles events or through on line sites.  So losing weight was more of a practical thing to increase dates rather than best version.  And I’m sure some women decided they’d rather not date a person who would be that turned off by an overweight woman. Whatever works. 

[mical]

Yep I regrettably admit I was a bit wild as a teenager/first year college student, but now more mature, wiser, responsible, and a bit boring jk.

 

 

[Batya33]

53 minutes ago, mical said:

Yep I regrettably admit I was a bit wild as a teenager/first year college student, but now much more mature, wiser, responsible, and a bit more boring jk

 

LOL weren't we all.  I think there are two separate issues though.  Losing excess weight/getting more fit -for mostly health reasons if the excess weight is a health issue - I can see where people are turned off from dating a person who is overweight and unhealthy/unfit.  Then, there is the motivation to lose weight/work out to have your body look a certain way - so that women who are focused on that will be more attracted.  Now there can be both but I'm talking about where the main focus is looks v. health.

[Carnatic]

On 9/5/2021 at 10:38 PM, Batya33 said:

I think it depends on whether he sees his best version of himself as being a person who would attract women who would be all over him physically and be sort of groupies.  If that is the sort of attention and company he craves more power to him.

Not quite, but I guess I'm not so proud that I would say no. I'm not sure that even the best version of myself would be attractive in that way though.

Yeah, losing weight, grooming and dressing well can enhance your level of physical attraction but there's only so far you can go, and personality-wise, you can learn new skills and try and at least fake having confidence (I believe only a very small number of people have the ability to believably fake confidence, the vast majority, if they're faking you can tell) but you can't totally transform your personality.

Even though I would ideally like to meet a woman who is as into me as I am into her; I'm somewhat soured on relationships after my past one. I had to surrender aspects of my independence, my personlity and my self for someone and even now I'm struggling to get them back. Though it's a bridge that I've never had to cross in the intervening period, I hope I can cross it. It would take some understanding though because even if I can come back around to the idea of living as a couple, my wariness would probably cause the relationship to end before that.

[Carnatic]

On 9/5/2021 at 11:42 PM, Batya33 said:

LOL weren't we all.  I think there are two separate issues though.  Losing excess weight/getting more fit -for mostly health reasons if the excess weight is a health issue - I can see where people are turned off from dating a person who is overweight and unhealthy/unfit.  Then, there is the motivation to lose weight/work out to have your body look a certain way - so that women who are focused on that will be more attracted.  Now there can be both but I'm talking about where the main focus is looks v. health.

Personally I'm OK with being judged on appearance and I don't think there is a distinction to 'women who are focused on that'. Whether your female, male, neither... you should be able experience sexual/physical attraction as part of being in a relationship.

[Batya33]

8 minutes ago, Carnatic said:

Not quite, but I guess I'm not so proud that I would say no. I'm not sure that even the best version of myself would be attractive in that way though.

Yeah, losing weight, grooming and dressing well can enhance your level of physical attraction but there's only so far you can go, and personality-wise, you can learn new skills and try and at least fake having confidence (I believe only a very small number of people have the ability to believably fake confidence, the vast majority, if they're faking you can tell) but you can't totally transform your personality.

Even though I would ideally like to meet a woman who is as into me as I am into her; I'm somewhat soured on relationships after my past one. I had to surrender aspects of my independence, my personlity and my self for someone and even now I'm struggling to get them back. Though it's a bridge that I've never had to cross in the intervening period, I hope I can cross it. It would take some understanding though because even if I can come back around to the idea of living as a couple, my wariness would probably cause the relationship to end before that.

I agree that going into a relationship with such a negative attitude is a nonstarter.  No one should attempt to transform their entire personality -that's silly.  But over the years especially because of being married I've changed how I choose to react to certain situations and also noticed how I've changed as far as what I like to do, my need for alone time, and who I like to spend time with and interact with.  One New Year's Eve in the late 90s when I was in my early 30s and dating my now husband (first time around!) he said to me in a very thoughtful and caring way -which is why it "worked" that basically I was too chatty and that this was not going to work out well for me (it wasn't an issue at all for him-for our relationship - we were talking about issues I was having with coworkers most likely).  It was how he said it, the timing -well, it resonated. 

And yes I changed.  Transformed? I don't know.  Changed.  Yes.  I had much more of a filter, became more discreet with what I shared, better boundaries, less approval seeking and -wa la - all of a sudden I made friends easier and the my current friends and I had better relationships.  People trusted me more when they saw how discreet I was even with my own stuff (I wasn't a gossip -but I think people trust me more with their own stuff when they see I am trustworthy plus discreet with my own personal life).  So yes big changes are more than possible.  IMHO.

The H part -humility - that's what marriage has brought home to me - you see what it takes to be part of a team, you see how you have to admit your flaws to yourself or your spouse or both, you stop before you react because you ask the question "hmm, yes, this is so irritating what he just did/didn't do and, um, how many times have I been irritating to be around in the last week or so?" 

You stop before being critical because you practice that humility.  From a position of confidence so that you don't settle for bad treatment or disrespect - but you question whether you're about to choose a battle that is unwise, whether your criticism requires first looking in the mirror.

I think looks matter.  But not as much as chemistry.  Chemistry can have something to do with looks of course but people are attracted to people for all sorts of reasons with looks being only one part.  "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder".  You could show me a guy who was objectively far more fit, far more "handsome" than my husband and tell me he's ready to sweep me off my feet and treat me wonderfully and never ever annoy me because he doesn't whistle and hum incessantly.  During a pandemic/lockdown.  Um no thanks.  Not ever.  I made that choice around 16 years ago when I realized that the technicality of there possibly being someone "even better" than my husband meant nothing to me.  I found my person. 

Casual dating -yes, that's a blast, and that does have a lot of GIGs and comparison shopping.  Because it should -it's what makes it fun! - If the person isn't serious minded for whatever reason there's nothing wrong with that but then the motivation to stick around rather than upgrade just isn't there. 

You don't have to pursue any romantic relationship if the cons outweigh the pros I just hope that the actual con isn't you just getting in your own way of all the benefits.  

[Batya33]

17 minutes ago, Carnatic said:

Personally I'm OK with being judged on appearance and I don't think there is a distinction to 'women who are focused on that'. Whether your female, male, neither... you should be able experience sexual/physical attraction as part of being in a relationship.

Yes there is because wanting a trophy on your arm or arm candy - certain physical features -isn't the same as sexual attraction.  There can be some overlap - someone can have a type of looks they're more attracted to -for me it was shorter men and blue/hazel eyes as opposed to brown - but focused on looks is different than wanting chemistry.

For example I had one date with a former child actor who was very slim and fit and told me what his percentage of body fat was.  (8% I think??) - anyway we met for coffee - I was slim.  Not overly skinny but slim, petite, fit.  On purpose I ordered a biscotti.  It came and I offered to share it with him.  He was horrified LOL - I think both that I was eating and that I offered.  He was focused on looks.  Not sure at all if he was focused on finding chemistry.  I emailed with many men online who were focused on my sending them more photos before we met. I had four posted and posted my height and weight.  That's not about attraction.  Because before you meet in person you won't know if there is romantic chemistry -with looks being a small part of it.  

I couldn't disagree with you more.

[Batya33]

25 minutes ago, Carnatic said:

Personally I'm OK with being judged on appearance and I don't think there is a distinction to 'women who are focused on that'. Whether your female, male, neither... you should be able experience sexual/physical attraction as part of being in a relationship.

Yes there is because wanting a trophy on your arm or arm candy - certain physical features -isn't the same as sexual attraction.  There can be some overlap - someone can have a type of looks they're more attracted to -for me it was shorter men and blue/hazel eyes as opposed to brown - but focused on looks is different than wanting chemistry.

For example I had one date with a former child actor who was very slim and fit and told me what his percentage of body fat was.  (8% I think??) - anyway we met for coffee - I was slim.  Not overly skinny but slim, petite, fit.  On purpose I ordered a biscotti.  It came and I offered to share it with him.  He was horrified LOL - I think both that I was eating and that I offered.  He was focused on looks.  Not sure at all if he was focused on finding chemistry.  I emailed with many men online who were focused on my sending them more photos before we met. I had four posted and posted my height and weight.  That's not about attraction.  Because before you meet in person you won't know if there is romantic chemistry -with looks being a small part of it.  

I couldn't disagree with you more.

[Fudgie]

Agree with Batya that physical/sexual attraction and chemistry are not the same thing but they do overlap. You can look at a photo/video of someone and tell if that person is physically/sexually attractive to you. However, you cannot tell if you and that person would have good chemistry together. That is something that can only be determined, fully, when meeting in person, although I do believe chemistry can be assessed (although not fully) over video chat, phone, etc. 

I agree with what others have said about focusing on your positives, downplaying your negatives or just not focusing on them. We can sit here and talk about how you're not "conventionally attractive" until the cows come home but at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter. Lots of average and ugly people have relationships and are happy.