Insecurity while dating a girl brings out the worst in me

[bbogdanov]

2 hours ago, Batya33 said:

I didn't advise  that at all.  I advised you to tell her in advance you don't want to interfere with her time away so you wish her a great time and happy to chat if she wishes.

Yeah, my mistake. I wished her a great time but I didn’t specifically say I’d be happy to chat if she wishes (she texts me when she wants to, nonetheless).

[bbogdanov]

3 hours ago, Batya33 said:

You can by asking her.  Couples who are exclusively dating don't keep their options open.  It means tomorrow she could meet someone who she finds attractive and accept a date without being disloyal to you.  So right now she is not dating anyone else.  That is true- trust that.  And that could change in a heartbeat because you're not exclusive.

I prefer not doing it, it’s not comfortable to me.

[Batya33]

Just now, bbogdanov said:

I understand that thing with the evolutionary perspective, seems logical. But aren’t some of those tests a game? Not that it is bad per se and I guess playing games is the norm or not? To weed out unsuitable prospects. It’s really annoying, like you said, but I won’t tell a girl those things you quoted, that’s for sure  They may come up in my mind but I won’t verbalize them. It’s like a suicide. Non-attached approach is a good thing to have and I think I had something close to it in the very beginning but after several good dates it went out of the window…

No it doesn’t go out the window. It’s a choice as to how fast to get attached. No game playing needed. Did I ever play games as far as my availability?  Sometimes.  Most of the time when I declined a date asked for after Wednesday for a weekend night it was because I already had plans.  If I didn’t I often decided plans with myself were far more important than being an after thought.  Guess what - the “spontaneous “ types who believed in making last minute  plans all of a sudden started calling me in advance. And my girlfriends who jumped for last minute dates and hookups inevitably became jaded about men who weren’t treating them respectfully or trying to take advantage.

 I taught them how to treat me (yes back when I dated 1978-2005) you didn’t accept a weekend night date asked for after Wednesday night unless you were an exclusive couple - then there really was an understanding that you’d be together on the weekend ). 
Not all games are evil. But if it’s more than a one off in the beginning then I’d say it’s just not a good match.  Most often I didn’t jump to return a phone call because I was busy.  I had messaging abilities when I dated but no cell phone.  No texting.  So returning a call within a day or so was perfectly normal. And if a guy called me on a Saturday night I didn’t call back till Sunday.  Not his business if we weren’t serious that I might home on a Saturday night. 
I don’t believe in being oneself in early dating if that means showing the person what you’re like when you’re infatuated and insecure.  That’s not “yourself “. So I made choices not to get attached too fast and not to overwhelm a new person with my feelings of insecurity or neediness. 

[Batya33]

Just now, bbogdanov said:

I prefer not doing it, it’s not comfortable to me.

Ok.  So you’re choosing not to know.  That means you will feel more insecure since if she doesn’t respond to a text if may be because she’s following up on an opportunity to meet a new guy.  Your choice. Perhaps you know the answer- my sense is if her ex is in her vacation friend group she’s still seeing herself as a free agent.  You’re the only one she’s dating and having sex with.  Right now.  But she hasn’t promised you not to pursue others.  And apparently you’re ok with that. 

[bbogdanov]

2 hours ago, boltnrun said:

I don't get why you flat out refuse to ask her to be exclusive. Who cares if it's not your "culture" to do so? All this assuming is contributing to your anxiety. She might think it's sweet and romantic if you ask her to be your exclusive lady and offer to be her exclusive man.

I still think it's fear based. You're afraid of the answer.

I strongly encourage you to do so. "Culture" be damned.

Who cares? Me, of course  I don’t have anxiety because of that exclusivity thing. If she thinks it would be sweet and romantic, she can ask me (it’s not gender-specific duty, is it?). I’m not afraid of the answer, it’s just not my thing.

[bbogdanov]

9 minutes ago, mical said:

Actually, I don't even know if it is a game..this is something I thought about and can't quite figure out I just know it backfires if you question it. Happened to me in the past when I didn't know any better

Anyways, this is probably not the best advice, but if someone really annoys me and I'm not feeling like such a nice person that day, I would probably do back the same but 30-50% more...

so if someone takes 2 hours to respond and I know they read my message and they do this REPEATEDLY, I'll maybe do the same but take 2.5 hours or just wait until the next day for fun to see the reaction... yeah maybe not so nice but whatever

 

 

That’s the problem, the girl responds hours or days later but you can’t call her out on it  you’re damned either way. Joke aside, sometimes I too have the tendency to treat somebody the same way she treats me. Not a mature thing, I guess, but…

[bbogdanov]

9 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

No it doesn’t go out the window. It’s a choice as to how fast to get attached. No game playing needed. Did I ever play games as far as my availability?  Sometimes.  Most of the time when I declined a date asked for after Wednesday for a weekend night it was because I already had plans.  If I didn’t I often decided plans with myself were far more important than being an after thought.  Guess what - the “spontaneous “ types who believed in making last minute  plans all of a sudden started calling me in advance. And my girlfriends who jumped for last minute dates and hookups inevitably became jaded about men who weren’t treating them respectfully or trying to take advantage.

 I taught them how to treat me (yes back when I dated 1978-2005) you didn’t accept a weekend night date asked for after Wednesday night unless you were an exclusive couple - then there really was an understanding that you’d be together on the weekend ). 
Not all games are evil. But if it’s more than a one off in the beginning then I’d say it’s just not a good match.  Most often I didn’t jump to return a phone call because I was busy.  I had messaging abilities when I dated but no cell phone.  No texting.  So returning a call within a day or so was perfectly normal. And if a guy called me on a Saturday night I didn’t call back till Sunday.  Not his business if we weren’t serious that I might home on a Saturday night. 
I don’t believe in being oneself in early dating if that means showing the person what you’re like when you’re infatuated and insecure.  That’s not “yourself “. So I made choices not to get attached too fast and not to overwhelm a new person with my feelings of insecurity or neediness. 

It’s easy to say that it is a choice but sometimes emotions get involved… 

[bbogdanov]

10 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

Ok.  So you’re choosing not to know.  That means you will feel more insecure since if she doesn’t respond to a text if may be because she’s following up on an opportunity to meet a new guy.  Your choice. Perhaps you know the answer- my sense is if her ex is in her vacation friend group she’s still seeing herself as a free agent.  You’re the only one she’s dating and having sex with.  Right now.  But she hasn’t promised you not to pursue others.  And apparently you’re ok with that. 

I don’t need her telling me in order to know or be secure. Even if we have “the talk”, she can still not respond to a text. What will be the difference? Her ex is in the vacation group because they have arranged it before I came in the picture, she is not a free agent because of that. And what is a promise after all? She tells me she won’t pursue others and I live happily ever after? People in relationships fall in love with other people and go after then, there isn’t any guarantee. 

[Batya33]

16 minutes ago, bbogdanov said:

I don’t need her telling me in order to know or be secure. Even if we have “the talk”, she can still not respond to a text. What will be the difference? Her ex is in the vacation group because they have arranged it before I came in the picture, she is not a free agent because of that. And what is a promise after all? She tells me she won’t pursue others and I live happily ever after? People in relationships fall in love with other people and go after then, there isn’t any guarantee. 

Of course there are no guarantees.  But it’s about balancing risks and benefits. For me personally confirming we were exclusive and not looking to date others lessened the risk of my partner going out to date others.  Just like my marriage vows while not a guarantee lessens the risks that he will leave the relationship and or his family.

 Our talk took about two minutes when we got back together. Easy and fast because 16 years ago when we had the talk - well it was late August but close enough - we were on the same wavelength about wanting to be only with each other.  We reconfirmed that officially 3 years after that at our wedding.  

I never felt uncomfortable or apprehensive having that initial convo and I was over the moon when we took our marriage vows because in both cases I knew the answer.  But confirming it in that way is meaningful and caring.  You’re telling each other you’re committed.  Without hesitation.

And despite no guarantees that to me lessens the risks of getting hurt and paves the way for letting yourself be vulnerable and even more bonded.  I think you’re insecure because you’re afraid of what her answer will be.
 

Or that despite her wanting to see you and have sex with you asking her to commit to dating only you and not looking to date others might scare  her  away and you don’t want to rock the boat.  That’s not a secure place to be particularly for someone like yourself who tends to insecurity. 

[Batya33]

32 minutes ago, bbogdanov said:

It’s easy to say that it is a choice but sometimes emotions get involved… 

Right.  You choose how to react to emotions. Despite not being able to control the emotion.  But you control the reaction. Hard to do.  But essential. For example if you’re frustrated with someone you might want to yell at the person.  But despite the angry emotion you make a choice to do something to calm down.  It’s not easy to say - it’s hard to choose how to react to emotions.  But essential for any healthful mature relationship.  

[boltnrun]

8 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

Right.  You choose how to react to emotions. Despite not being able to control the emotion.  But you control the reaction. Hard to do.  But essential. For example if you’re frustrated with someone you might want to yell at the person.  But despite the angry emotion you make a choice to do something to calm down.  It’s not easy to say - it’s hard to choose how to react to emotions.  But essential for any healthful mature relationship.  

Yep, if your boss gives you a pile of work to complete at 4:45 pm on Friday afternoon you probably want to call her or him some choice names. But you know you can't. 

Same with reacting to emotions in a relationship.  If my husband doesn't take out the trash after promising to it does the marriage no good to call him stupid and worthless or have a meltdown or cry hysterically. 

I would also be very careful about assuming you two are in a committed relationship. If that were the case it would be very inappropriate for her to go on vacation with her ex, regardless of when the plans were made. 

Hopefully this will be sorted out soon so you can stop worrying about all of this.

[Batya33]

1 minute ago, boltnrun said:

Yep, if your boss gives you a pile of work to complete at 4:45 pm on Friday afternoon you probably want to call her or him some choice names. But you know you can't. 

Same with reacting to emotions in a relationship.  If my husband doesn't take out the trash after promising to it does the marriage no good to call him stupid and worthless or have a meltdown or cry hysterically. 

I would also be very careful about assuming you two are in a committed relationship. If that were the case it would be very inappropriate for her to go on vacation with her ex, regardless of when the plans were made. 

Hopefully this will be sorted out soon so you can stop worrying about all of this.

I agree.  I get the impression the OP is of the view that he’d rather not know where he stands.  All the excuses and “no guarantees “ tired old cliches tell me this.  If you really believed in no guarantees you’d never have mentioned the ex.  I mean if there are no guarantees why tell her to stop talking to him ?  No point.  You did that because you know full well there’s a way to communicate with someone to lessen the risks of being hurt in a relationship- you ask questions and then determine whether it’s worth the risk to continue with that person.  I was told once by someone I’d been initially crazy about that he had an anger disorder and was no longer going  to seek therapy for it. I’d seen his disorder in action.  Not directed to me at all.  But could have been.  Despite my strong feelings I’d only been dating him a few months.  I ended things then.  No guarantees but I balanced the risks of him perhaps getting angry at me against the benefits of continuing to see him.  Someone else may have chosen differently because he was polite and respectful to me. 
You’re entitled to bury your head in the sand and do the ignorance is bliss thing.  Google those phrases if they’re unfamiliar.  IMO that’s what you’re doing.  

[boltnrun]

I also find it interesting that you say you have absolute confidence you two are in agreement about being in a committed relationship but you were terribly fearful and anxious because she doesn't send you daily "How are you?" texts or respond to your texts in less than 2 hours.

Would it be accurate to say you have absolutely no more anxiety about her texting habits or her attachment to her ex?

[Unsure2021]

You talk in circles. You’re clinging onto this girl for dear life, despite her being a liar and not over her ex. Your insecurity and low self-esteem is turning you into a doormat, where you will now tolerate your personal boundaries (i.e. no contact with exes) being violated. The proof that you know this woman is not that into you is that you cannot bring yourself to clarify if you’re exclusive or not and you keep posting here, looking for reassurance. God forbid you find out she’s shtooping her ex and your whole world collapses without the possibility of finding another female again! I’m being facetious of course, but it’s clear you’re beating a dead horse here. Work on your confidence and self esteem before you date. Unless of course you enjoy all this torment, in which case this thread has probably run its course, and we should leave you to it. 

[bbogdanov]

11 hours ago, Batya33 said:

Of course there are no guarantees.  But it’s about balancing risks and benefits. For me personally confirming we were exclusive and not looking to date others lessened the risk of my partner going out to date others.  Just like my marriage vows while not a guarantee lessens the risks that he will leave the relationship and or his family.

 Our talk took about two minutes when we got back together. Easy and fast because 16 years ago when we had the talk - well it was late August but close enough - we were on the same wavelength about wanting to be only with each other.  We reconfirmed that officially 3 years after that at our wedding.  

I never felt uncomfortable or apprehensive having that initial convo and I was over the moon when we took our marriage vows because in both cases I knew the answer.  But confirming it in that way is meaningful and caring.  You’re telling each other you’re committed.  Without hesitation.

And despite no guarantees that to me lessens the risks of getting hurt and paves the way for letting yourself be vulnerable and even more bonded.  I think you’re insecure because you’re afraid of what her answer will be.
 

Or that despite her wanting to see you and have sex with you asking her to commit to dating only you and not looking to date others might scare  her  away and you don’t want to rock the boat.  That’s not a secure place to be particularly for someone like yourself who tends to insecurity. 

I tend to insecurity occasionally but I won’t be afraid to not have the exclusivity talk. If I were afraid that she won’t be “mine” only, I would want to lock her down in a commitment by wanting to hear it explicitly from her. I don’t need to ask her specifically because I don’t do it like that (which hasn’t prevented me from having LTRs in the past) and like I said - if she wants, she can ask me, too (it’s a two-way street). I’m comfortable with the current situation. I was more concerned about the situation with the ex and I appreciate the enormous info I got here!

[bbogdanov]

11 hours ago, Batya33 said:

Right.  You choose how to react to emotions. Despite not being able to control the emotion.  But you control the reaction. Hard to do.  But essential. For example if you’re frustrated with someone you might want to yell at the person.  But despite the angry emotion you make a choice to do something to calm down.  It’s not easy to say - it’s hard to choose how to react to emotions.  But essential for any healthful mature relationship.  

It really is essential, I know. And it really is hard  That’s what I meant - I struggle to cope with the reaction to my emotion, I don’t try to control emotions or suppress them (that’s impossible/unhealthy). And I can honestly say that I am usually able to control my reactions when it comes to other parts of life (your example with frustration was good). But in my intimate relationships, I am “weak”. 

[bbogdanov]

11 hours ago, boltnrun said:

Yep, if your boss gives you a pile of work to complete at 4:45 pm on Friday afternoon you probably want to call her or him some choice names. But you know you can't. 

Same with reacting to emotions in a relationship.  If my husband doesn't take out the trash after promising to it does the marriage no good to call him stupid and worthless or have a meltdown or cry hysterically. 

I would also be very careful about assuming you two are in a committed relationship. If that were the case it would be very inappropriate for her to go on vacation with her ex, regardless of when the plans were made. 

Hopefully this will be sorted out soon so you can stop worrying about all of this.

Yes, reaction to emotions is the key, I suppose. Please see my above answer to Batya where I described my feelings about it.

I am really open to her going on that vacation, I can’t forbid her and it will be just a single event. She is supposed to not have contact with the ex anymore so I can swallow that pill.

And I can wait till this thing is sorted out, the vacation is in August, so I can give it one more month.

[bbogdanov]

11 hours ago, Batya33 said:

I agree.  I get the impression the OP is of the view that he’d rather not know where he stands.  All the excuses and “no guarantees “ tired old cliches tell me this.  If you really believed in no guarantees you’d never have mentioned the ex.  I mean if there are no guarantees why tell her to stop talking to him ?  No point.  You did that because you know full well there’s a way to communicate with someone to lessen the risks of being hurt in a relationship- you ask questions and then determine whether it’s worth the risk to continue with that person.  I was told once by someone I’d been initially crazy about that he had an anger disorder and was no longer going  to seek therapy for it. I’d seen his disorder in action.  Not directed to me at all.  But could have been.  Despite my strong feelings I’d only been dating him a few months.  I ended things then.  No guarantees but I balanced the risks of him perhaps getting angry at me against the benefits of continuing to see him.  Someone else may have chosen differently because he was polite and respectful to me. 
You’re entitled to bury your head in the sand and do the ignorance is bliss thing.  Google those phrases if they’re unfamiliar.  IMO that’s what you’re doing.  

I appreciate all the info but there’s no need to push me for exclusivity talk or blame me for using cliches : ) 

My wish that she stops communicating with her ex has more to do with boundaries and what I feel comfortable with. Asking her if we are exclusive - not so much.

Saying that I am entitled to bury my head in the sand implies to me that you are somehow framing this from the judge position. While I appreciate all the help you are giving (as well as other posters’), please let’s talk like equals.

[bbogdanov]

11 hours ago, boltnrun said:

I also find it interesting that you say you have absolute confidence you two are in agreement about being in a committed relationship but you were terribly fearful and anxious because she doesn't send you daily "How are you?" texts or respond to your texts in less than 2 hours.

Would it be accurate to say you have absolutely no more anxiety about her texting habits or her attachment to her ex?

Yes, I was like that in the beginning (up to some point in our relations). In the last couple of weeks things progressed quite a bit and I can say that I get used to her texting habits (and she is texting me a lot more now) and I believe her about her ex.

After all, I am doing the best I can so I won’t blame myself if things don’t work out. 

[bbogdanov]

6 hours ago, Unsure2021 said:

You talk in circles. You’re clinging onto this girl for dear life, despite her being a liar and not over her ex. Your insecurity and low self-esteem is turning you into a doormat, where you will now tolerate your personal boundaries (i.e. no contact with exes) being violated. The proof that you know this woman is not that into you is that you cannot bring yourself to clarify if you’re exclusive or not and you keep posting here, looking for reassurance. God forbid you find out she’s shtooping her ex and your whole world collapses without the possibility of finding another female again! I’m being facetious of course, but it’s clear you’re beating a dead horse here. Work on your confidence and self esteem before you date. Unless of course you enjoy all this torment, in which case this thread has probably run its course, and we should leave you to it. 

Why so negative?

[Batya33]

4 hours ago, bbogdanov said:

I tend to insecurity occasionally but I won’t be afraid to not have the exclusivity talk. If I were afraid that she won’t be “mine” only, I would want to lock her down in a commitment by wanting to hear it explicitly from her. I don’t need to ask her specifically because I don’t do it like that (which hasn’t prevented me from having LTRs in the past) and like I said - if she wants, she can ask me, too (it’s a two-way street). I’m comfortable with the current situation. I was more concerned about the situation with the ex and I appreciate the enormous info I got here!

OK - I have my answer-you see this as locking her down.  I actually see it as freeing -because when you express a mutual commitment in words it's freeing - it feels freeing to be on the same wavelength with someone. To express what is in your heart and head simply and directly and see it reflected in the other person's eyes "yup, me too, I want to be with you and I don't want to look for anyone else to be with and should that ever change and I feel like I want to see other people of course I will let you know and we will talk about it." 

Burying your head in the sand is not meant to be judgmental or imply that you are inferior in some way -it describes someone who is in denial.  

Certainly if you think she would see it as restricting then never ask her and never propose - that's no fun and that's not a person who would see commitment for all its positives and joy.  Marriage isn't about locking down and if you see even exclusivity that way then I'd keep things status quo with her -have fun dating her, have fun having sex with her and I doubt she'll ever ask you for a commitment because honestly -most women don't do that and only if they're worried about their person pursuing others- you're in touch with her so much she's likely not to worry. I've never been in any healthy arrangement where I had to ask for exclusivity.

The only person she's promised not to pursue is her ex.  If someone turns her pretty head on vacation for example she's free to pursue him.  All she's implied is that she is not dating anyone else right now.  I agree if she promised not to interact with her ex that is a commitment.  

[Batya33]

4 hours ago, bbogdanov said:

It really is essential, I know. And it really is hard  That’s what I meant - I struggle to cope with the reaction to my emotion, I don’t try to control emotions or suppress them (that’s impossible/unhealthy). And I can honestly say that I am usually able to control my reactions when it comes to other parts of life (your example with frustration was good). But in my intimate relationships, I am “weak”. 

You are not weak.  You choose to be weak.  If your goal is a healthful relationship you will do what it takes to reach that goal.  I've had to get out of my comfort zone many many times to reach my goals of marriage and family and maintain those goals in a healthful way.  Don't use the excuses or the cop out of labeling yourself as weak.  People who act in a weak way can't form or maintain truly healthful relationships.

[mical]

Sorry, I got a bit lost in all the details... but is it that you both are dating AND she is living with the ex AND they are on vacation together?

If I understood that correctly, I'd be very very careful here. I went through something a bit similar last year and that girl turned out to be a massive headache.

If they are sharing the same bed / bedroom etc I would leave to be honest...

But maybe I misunderstood that? 

Anyways I also agree with your take on not forcing or pushing to have "the talk"...that is more of a North American thing. In many countries like France, etc. it is assumed that if you kiss you are dating and exclusive.

I actually prefer that way than everyone just sleeping around with everyone until some magical "talk" which is a bit awkward anyways...

 

 

 

 

[Jibralta]

18 hours ago, bbogdanov said:

It’s easy to say that it is a choice but sometimes emotions get involved… 

But you want a relationship, right? You're not looking to remain in limbo.

Why not ask a simple question that will remove you from the stressful, useless loop of uncertainty?

Why wouldn't you ask for what you want? If you don't ask, you don't get. 

What was that you were saying a few pages back about certain people being emotional and incomprehensible?

On 6/24/2021 at 2:19 AM, bbogdanov said:

I really tend to generalize women sometimes as the more emotional and incomprehensible species

Interesting.

[bbogdanov]

2 hours ago, Batya33 said:

OK - I have my answer-you see this as locking her down.  I actually see it as freeing -because when you express a mutual commitment in words it's freeing - it feels freeing to be on the same wavelength with someone. To express what is in your heart and head simply and directly and see it reflected in the other person's eyes "yup, me too, I want to be with you and I don't want to look for anyone else to be with and should that ever change and I feel like I want to see other people of course I will let you know and we will talk about it." 

Burying your head in the sand is not meant to be judgmental or imply that you are inferior in some way -it describes someone who is in denial.  

Certainly if you think she would see it as restricting then never ask her and never propose - that's no fun and that's not a person who would see commitment for all its positives and joy.  Marriage isn't about locking down and if you see even exclusivity that way then I'd keep things status quo with her -have fun dating her, have fun having sex with her and I doubt she'll ever ask you for a commitment because honestly -most women don't do that and only if they're worried about their person pursuing others- you're in touch with her so much she's likely not to worry. I've never been in any healthy arrangement where I had to ask for exclusivity.

The only person she's promised not to pursue is her ex.  If someone turns her pretty head on vacation for example she's free to pursue him.  All she's implied is that she is not dating anyone else right now.  I agree if she promised not to interact with her ex that is a commitment.  

Yeah, maybe I have a wrond mindset about it (locking down), I don’t know. I just feel uncomfortable having such talk because of that. If it’s freeing, is it one if those things that are counterintuitive? I fear expressing what’s in my heart and head because I am afraid of being seen as weak - we are taught and conditioned to not pour our hearts out and be “masculine”. It’s a mental barrier and BS, maybe, but…

I don’t know if she will see it as restricting, I would act the same with every other girl so it’s not a special case, just my way of operating.