Men and marriage proposals-does it really matter?

[CarrieB123]

A little contradictory don't you think?

[Beec]

A little contradictory don't you think?

 

Maybe, Luciana seems to want some romance. But I don't think she's asking for the bridge in Paris. Just something.

[Mun]

Luciana, I am sure you are a smart enough woman that although you don't like the proposal you will never tell your man that.

 

Can you appreciate what he gives and leave it at that? He seems a practical man who doesn't like all this "showy" business. That is just his nature.

 

I can see this being romantic, but then again I think a guy who will check my car, cut my lawn and take out my trash ( had a bf that did all that) is romantic. Rocks and flowers are nice, but I want a man who shows me I can count on him too.

 

This is your soulmate, the man you will spend the rest of your life with and he had to overcome some very real trust issues to consider re-marrying... and now he has. You must be very special to him.

I'm sorry you didn't get what you wanted--the way you wanted it.

[Luciana]

Muneca, thanks, those were wise words. Yes, he does help me with a lot of things. It's just that I see guys around me who that AND gave their GF's a decent proposal too..by decent I proposing in a nice restaurant (cliche), a walk through a park, a nice trip together (oh, we had SO MANY opportunities, like the fountain in las Vegas, beaches, even Paris...yes, nothing happened in Paris and I came back feeling disappointed.

Anyhow, I have to accept him as he is but this can be an eye opener to other guys in this forum about how women feel about this. A little romance goes a long way...

[Luciana]

Beec got the point

[CarrieB123]

Luciana

 

But I couldn't help comparing to my own engagement story

Luciana

 

it is really annoying how some women need to compare who has the biggest rock and who had the most incredible proposal.

 

WoW! To me that sounds quite a bit contradictory.

[annie24]

... well... not quite so contradictory. I think she wouldn't be as upset if she had a more glamorous engagement story to tell.... I think if there are a group of women, and they are going around the room telling their engagement story - I can see how luciana could be a tad annoyed...

[DN]

I must say it seemed a little contradictory to me as well. But what turns me off a bit is the competitive aspect of it. What is more important - the fact someone wants to marry you or the fact that you have a romantic proposal so you can one-up your friends and co-workers?

 

I hope I will not have to be in a position to propose to anyone again, but if I am I think I shall just go for an arranged marriage and let somebody else worry about how the proposal is done!!

[annie24]

Muneca, thanks, those were wise words. Yes, he does help me with a lot of things. It's just that I see guys around me who that AND gave their GF's a decent proposal too..by decent I proposing in a nice restaurant (cliche), a walk through a park, a nice trip together (oh, we had SO MANY opportunities, like the fountain in las Vegas, beaches, even Paris...yes, nothing happened in Paris and I came back feeling disappointed.

Anyhow, I have to accept him as he is but this can be an eye opener to other guys in this forum about how women feel about this. A little romance goes a long way...

 

Oh - But he's taken you so many nice places! (Or at least gone with you.) Doesn't that count for something?

[PAdreamer]

I can see what your saying about the missed oportunities to give you a really romantic proposal.

 

Two things to consider:

 

1) Perhaps he wasn't prepeared to ask at that time

 

2) Perhaps he preferred to do it as a part of everyday life because your life isn't going to be lived in foreign cities or on wonderful vacations. Your every day with him will be spent together, in your home, out shopping, or working. Seeing as he's obviously a practical man, it might mean more to him to have the proposal reflect that every-day life that he wasn't to spend with you. He doesn't only want to be with you when you're on vacation, or in a fancy restaraunt, or out dancing. He wants to spend his life waking up to you, with your bed breath and hair that makes you resemble a cokatoo ( I CAN'T believe they wouldn't let me spell that word correctly!) with big dark circles under your eyes. That's the woman he wants to live with. Doesn't it make sense that this is the secanrio in which he would express that desire in the most sincere act possible?

[Luciana]

Annie, he didn't take me to all those places-we went together, meaning I paid my part! And it wasn't that many occasions, spread along 6 years.

 

And Carrie and DN, it is not contradictory. Having your BF put a little effort to a proposal versus doing nothing is not because I want to one up my friends!! Believe me, they all have rings much more expensive than mine and I don't care a bit. I chose to have a cheaper ring because I felt that too much money is wasted in one ring.

 

So having had a decent (I am saying decent, not lavish) proposal was for MYSELF. So I could have a sweet memory about this special and delicate moment when a man expresses his wish to spend his life with you, and that you are the most important person for him. If he had taken me to our local waterfront during a sunset stroll and suddenly reached for his pocket and asked me to marry him would be as incredible to me as if he had proposed from the moon-like that astronaut did.

 

I have NO wish to upstage my GF's with my story. I do not have this competitive nature with my friends. I genuinely like them and chose them to be friends because of their personalities and common interests and world views. I want them to be happy. I was thrilled with my friend who had the romantic proposal. I got emotional with her!

 

I will not have any nice memory of that special moment. As for bragging to my friends, that is not what I would do, and they all know my how my BF is anyhow (non-romantic).

 

I have heard my friends tell me many stories of valentines day gestures from their BF's that I know my fiance would never do. It is not in his nature. He is so feminist that he thinks the woman should do it too. Yes, if it were him the woman would go down on her knees and propose!

 

Also, remember in Brazil, where I was born, there is no such tradition of a man proposing to a woman. People just decide to get married and tell their families. There is not expensive ring. The man usually buys the weddign bands and they both wear it in their right hand until the wedding and then switch to the left hand. So it is more egalitarian. The woman does not have the passive role of waiting for a man to propose. I have seen many women like me anxiously expecting the BF's to propose, like they don't have control of their own destiny.

 

Still, I have lived in the US so long that I acquired the habits and the traditions. So a decent proposal was what I wanted. Something cute, simple and sincere. From the heart. Not just "here's the ring". No need for him to go down on his knees. Beec got the point, and Annie did too.

[Luciana]

"I think if there are a group of women, and they are going around the room telling their engagement story - I can see how luciana could be a tad annoyed..."

 

 

Annie, you are right. If I were in a group of women who were not my friends and who I didn't know well and they were comparing their proposal stories, I would have to keep my mouth shut!

[Luciana]

PAdreamer, your point is interesting too. I hadn't considered that.

[annie24]

honey - I know I've asked this before, but are you sure this is the right man for you....?

[Luciana]

In most ways he is. His being practical also has many advantages. I would rather have a non romantic guy than one who showers me with gifts and flowers but has affairs on the side, or is dishonest or abusive.

[annie24]

I know.... I'm sorry if I'm being intrusive or something, I don't know... do you want to "settle for good enough" if you know what I mean. I'm sure that he's nice and all, but maybe that's not good enough reason to marry someone. But, if this is the man you plan to spend the rest of your life with... if it is, I guess that you just have to accept that he's not romantic and be ok with that.

[RayKay]

I think what annie is getting at is often you seem to post things that reference he is not really "the man for you" and sometimes the impression I get is that you are settling? I sometimes wonder if by your posts he almost is too. But it often seems you justify it as "this is the way he is" and "all men are like that". Well, if it the way he is, and you love him despite it all (but then, why complain about the way he is) and secondly, not all men ARE like that either....

 

I don't know, it is not meant personally but I often get impression while you do love him, and he loves you, you are not all that HAPPY with him, and I think it is not fair to yourself to settle for him if you are not.

 

But if you are, I apologize for my interpretations of it, it may just be the way I am reading things.

[Luciana]

RayKay, you do have a point too. I am not too happy with several aspects of his personality and I wish he could change. He will not change, of course. Being more romantic, calling me "honey" or "dear", saying "I love you" are things that are important to me but that he doesn't feel like doing. I have always told him the door is open for him to find someone he could say these things to. He has an enormous fear of being controlled or lbeing p**y whipped (god I hate that term). So being romantic to him is equivalent of giving in, being weak. Especially because I asked for these things. I also agree with Beec that maybe I don't inspire those feelings in him. I am very independent, opinionated and not passive. I think he would prefer his women passive and shrinking violets. Or maybe dumber.

 

Still, the advantages outweigh the disadvantages. I think his way of expressing love is fixing my computer, my car, 2 things he likes to do. And he feels too confortable with me that he won't lose me, being romantic or not. I never met his father but he seemed to me the pratical kind of guy too, and his mother was very subserviant. I doubt he ever saw his father giving his mother roses or gifts. SHe was a sacrificer for the kids and the family (those big Irish families).

[annie24]

Yes - RayKay said what I was getting at. I don't think that there's anything wrong with having a man call you "sweetie" or "honey." I dunno... It's just... and I'm sorry if I'm being intrusive, but you've had several posts on problems with your sex life, and he wants to be on the road a lot, but you don't want him to, and a whole host of other fundamental differences. I know that I'm a total stranger and I don't know either of you, but from my limited perspective, it seems like you two are just fundamentally incompatible.

 

I know this may sound kinda mean, but I think the type of woman that really truly deeply wants a practical man... she wouldn't post about her unromantic proposal - because she wouldn't have even been upset by it. It would have made her happy.

 

I'm sure that he's nice and doesn't hit you and fixes your computer, but I think that a marriage should be more than that. You know, settling for whoever's "good enough" that comes along...

 

I'm sorry. I hope you aren't offended by anything I've said. I know - I don't know either of you, it's just... I'm not sure if you should be having all these problems during the period right before the wedding.

[RayKay]

And I guess it is stuff that makes me wonder...you seem to justify how he is and that is fine as it IS how he is...but you almost try and convince yourself you are happy.

 

I guess to me a relationship should not be because the advantages weigh out the disadvantages. While every person has their quirks and every relationship their own dynamics and issues, it should not be where you think of them as disadvantages, or have to outweigh them. I don't know...but it should just be "right" in that sense without weighing things that way.

 

Personally if I was unhappy with several aspects of my partners personality, well to be blunt they would not be my partner. I am not saying my partner is "perfect", or we never disagree, but he is absolutely right for me, and I would never even truly consider him to have any negatives or parts of his personality I do not like...

 

I think until a person demands the best for themselves, and really listens to what they need and desire, and don't pass them off as "illogical and fantasy" then you find exactly what you were looking for. As women (and some men do this too) I think we often get into this mode where we love our partner unconditionally, and nothing wrong with that, but we often accept a lot of behaviours we would not have before, or settle for a lot of things just because we love them, and often we end up losing our own self esteem and respect for ourselves - and our partners even do the same regarding us.

 

If you feel it is important to be called pet names, and be shown affection, and be told I love you...then there is NOTHING wrong with that, and there ARE men who do do that! It seems to me odd that you find that since it is something "he does not feel like doing" you are okay with it - don't you want to be with someone who DOES feel like doing that, who wants to scream it off the top of the Eiffel Tower for the world to know? Sure the door is open for HIM to find someone to say it too, but why is that door not open for YOU to find someone who will say it to YOU?

 

And more so while upbringing has some to do with it, it is not an excuse. My partners parents are not very affectionate, but he is the sweetest, most caring, affectionate man I have ever know. There is not one second I go without feeling absolutely loved for who I am head to toe...and now, I would never want any different than that. It took a while to find it, and some more negative experiences, but it was only when I decided that I was no longer going to deny what I needed that I found the man of my dreams....it all fell into place.

[shes2smart]

I've been following the discussion between Luciana, RayKay, muneca & annie24. I have only one point to bring up.

 

If you truly want some of those romantic touches/shows of emotion and he's not forthcoming, you can convince yourself it'll be fine.

 

And it will be fine until the day comes that you run accross someone who does those things AND has an interest in you, in spite of your marital status. You won't need to be looking for it, as it's very likely you'll cross paths with a man like this at some point just going about your business.

 

I'm sure you've seen enough other posts on these boards from people who met someone at work or some other innocent way, and all of a sudden they're in over their head. If you ignore your needs, they have a funny way of taking over if you happen to meet someone who could fulfill them. Not saying that you'd intentionally go out looking for that...but sometimes things happen and they spiral out of control before you know it.

 

If there's something you want in a relationship, and you're not getting it, and that goes on for a long, long time, at some point what you're not getting is going to be all you can think about. You'll be ripe for the picking by a guy who can pay you that kind of attention. Been there m'self. It's a difficult situation...and a great reason why one shouldn't settle for "good enough."

[JCarman]

I haven't been able to read all 8 pages of posting, so hopefully this isn't redundant:

 

The marriage proposal is an important celebration, but I think your therapist is right. Some people hold little regard for romantic stuff -- not just men, but even some women. If you really want somebody more romantic, then have courage to make tough choices. Although, I have seen some guys that are over the top about being romantic. It seems like they're more interested in the thrill of the chase then making it work over the long haul.

 

Finally, there are many more qualities to put ahead of this (in my opinion; in no particular order)

- Love

- Loyalty

- Trustworthiness

- Personality

- Unselfishness for lack of a better word

- Committment

.... and on and on....

[Luciana]

All 3 last posts have been brilliant. I do agree with all you said. And no, you're not being intrusive or innapropriate or anything. That's why I am here and I started going to a therapist. The therapist is only listening so far; she doesn't say a word. I might be paying just to be listened to..

 

I have always thought the things that were dealbreakers were: infidelity, drug use, alcohol addiction, violence and abuse. The other things you could work out, especially if the man has morals basic values and intelligence.

 

My first husband is a very good man, was a good husband and father, but was emotionally shut down. He was a very shy and quiet man and never talked about feelings. He never told me he loved me, never told me I looked pretty, and wasn't affectionate. At the age of 36 I felt like I was 86 years old. His parents had a totally cold marriage.

 

My fiance is more affectionate (likes to hold and cuddle), but somehow emotionally he is shut down too. I have a suspicion his first wife complained about the same things, him not being romantic, not buying her nice gifts, etc. Some men do it all for the first couple of months and once the woman is in their web they just get slack. They start taking them for granted once SHE falls in love. They have a need for challenge and novelty. Others are able to keep up the good work.

 

Maybe I am attracted to men who are emotionally unavailable. Thank God neither man was unfaithful, that I could never put up with.

[RayKay]

I have a couple questions for you - what were YOUR parents like? Were they close, affectionate, showed their love openly?

 

I ask all this as it seems we grow up sometimes taking whatever our parents showed us our caregivers as the norm...so while I know what his parents marriage was like, I am curious as to yours and to what you are "accustomed too".

 

It is true all you mentioned would be dealbreakers, but so are basic incompatibilites. A relationship does require work yes, but it should not BE work - understand the difference there? If you have different ideas on relationship goals, or communication, or how to spend time, on family,, conflicting personalities that you resent the other for some reasons, where you don't FEEL loved or feel like you are putting in all the effort and work...to me those are deal breakers too, as you just are not compatible. To me it is only right that you should be safe, secure and absolutly loved completely for whom you are, and you don't feel like you need to change to be "better" for him, nor are you hoping for HIM to change. If everyone could make it work with everyone (barring those dealbreakers you mentioned) then heck, we would marry our first dates EVER. We may never know breakups, but nor would we ever know how deep, amazing and beautiful finding the "right one" for us would be.

 

To me it sounds like your fiance is almost like your first hubby all over again (minus cuddling part) and I worry that if you give yourself to an emotionally shut down person all over again, you too will eventually end up in "shut down/exhaustion mode".

 

Love is not always easy, but those we choose to place our hearts with should be not only those we can trust with it, but those who make us feel absolutely alive just by being near us, whom don't make us feel stressed, or worried, or anxious, or in doubt about their feelings, their intent, and whether they really want to commit to us or not.

 

 

I know I don't know all that much of you, or your relationship, but these are just things I have had jump into my head following many of your posts and I do hope that before you DO get married, you REALLY REALLY think about whether he is right for you, and you are doing it for the right reasons....the man you marry should not be the one you can live wtih, but one you can't live without (to borrow a cheesy line I heard in a song!).

I think it is great you are in counselling...though I would ask her/him next time that they say something...or shop around for a new counsellor!

[sadgirl_april]

It is not easy to give up a guy who is "not so perfect". It takes a long time to find out that besides the many things you like about this guy, there are some things you wish were different. By that time you are emotionally attached. What can we do?