Men and marriage proposals-does it really matter?

[annie24]

 

When men cheat, it is usually for sex, when women cheat, it is usually for attention.

 

.

 

With respect I think that very sexist. It's essentially saying men cheat because they are bad and women cheat because their men are bad.

 

I recently read a book review (I think it was on link removed) and the book was about female infidelity. The author's thesis was that women tended to cheat when they had gone "unappreciated" for a while. For example, the mother is very busy and works very hard to keep her house clean, and take the kids to soccer practice, and sometimes, her hard work goes by unnoticed. Then, the roof repairman comes by, and compliments her on how beautiful her violets in her garden are, and tells her that he knows that they are difficult to grow, and she has obviously put a lot of care into them. Then, she starts developing feelings for him because he noticed something special about her that the hubby and kids didn't. That was the example given in the book review.

 

But, I agree DN - that list of stuff is romantic and indicative of real love.

[DN]

My friend and his wife have been married for 35 years. A year ago she had a stroke. For a while she couldn't speak or move very much and, being an intelligent and active woman she got very frustrated. As a result her blood pressure got dangerously high - but it returned to near normal levels when her husband was there and held her hand.

 

My wife works in a nursing home on the floor for elderly people with dementia and Alzheimer's disease. Some of these people have lost so much of the memory they sit with food in their mouths because they have forgotten how to chew. But their spouses will sit for hours with them, every day, even though they are totally unrecognized by their partner of many years. They talk to them, look after them, caress them, even though there is no response.

 

My aunt visited her husband's grave every week and talked to him, bringing him up to date on family stuff, weeding the grave and bringing flowers. she did that until she died and was buried with him.

 

That's romantic.

[DN]

 

When men cheat, it is usually for sex, when women cheat, it is usually for attention.

 

.

 

With respect I think that very sexist. It's essentially saying men cheat because they are bad and women cheat because their men are bad.

 

I recently read a book review (I think it was on link removed) and the book was about female infidelity. The author's thesis was that women tended to cheat when they had gone "unappreciated" for a while. For example, the mother is very busy and works very hard to keep her house clean, and take the kids to soccer practice, and sometimes, her hard work goes by unnoticed. Then, the roof repairman comes by, and compliments her on how beautiful her violets in her garden are, and tells her that he knows that they are difficult to grow, and she has obviously put a lot of care into them. Then, she starts developing feelings for him because he noticed something special about her that the hubby and kids didn't. That was the example given in the book review.

 

But, I agree DN - that list of stuff is romantic and indicative of real love.

 

But when the man has much the same reaction from his wife for all the effort he puts into putting bread on the table, doing the plumbing, gardening, oil changes, etc and looks to a girl at work for the sort of attention he is not getting from his wife, he's told it's just because of the sex.

 

I think men and women cheat for the same reasons - and there is more than one reason.

[Luciana]

Well yes, one can't simplify cheating like that of course. There are more variables in cheating.

 

DN, your list is superb. I should focus on that and forget the lack of proposal..

[Beec]

people cheat b/c they think they can get something by it that they think they are missing.

[ISuicidalLobster]

I think that girls who think for more than about 2 seconds about how they are going to be proposed to are high maintenence and should be avoided. Someone's offering to dedicate the rest of their life to you, and the girl gets jealous 'cause her proposal wasn't as cool as some other girl's?

 

The part about not thinking about it for more than two seconds I disagree with. My romantic proposal i dream of is watching the sunset out accross the ocean and sitting together on the rocks and he proposes. I realize that this proposal probably WON'T happen... lol yes because my bf is not a mind reader and I don't expect him to be. In my mind if the man proposing is "the right one" then however he proposes is just fine. Just because it isn't romantic or classy or whatever is indifferent. Hopefully by the time he's asked you to marry him you know well enough into what you're doing and know the type of person he is. If he isn't romantic, then fine he is was he is let him be that way. Now the wedding and reception on the other hand... lol that I know what I want for sure

[sadgirl_april]

Beec said:

 

But if you need less, you also need to realize that you let him give you less. When you expected it and got nothing, he got away with giving you nothing. Boyfriends, girlfriends, spouses, fiances, etc. all are in some ways like children. They will test your bounds and do only that which they need to do and get away with what they can get away with. So, in large part, you created the problem.

 

 

I want to ask Beec if he really feels that is true. I am shocked. I always feel my boyfriend is emotional handicapped. When he never says anything romantic to me, I take it as "actions speak louder than words". When he resists telling me his past love stories, I assume "it is private and I shouldn't ask". After tolerating these less than perfect things, I know he'd be mad if I suddenly ask for a change.

[Beec]

Yes, it is true to a large extent. Absolutely without question, no exceptions true? Of course not.

 

Let's see, if your man (I will use an ancient example) gives you a washing machine for Christmas, and you act happy and pleased, when you really wanted jewelry, can you blame him for giving you the dryer for the next Christmas? Not really. If you were not happy, you need to let him know.

 

If my woman has an issue with me picking my toes at the dinner table (I don't), but never complains about it, when am I going to stop. I'm nto because I think it is ok, and she does not tell me otherwise.

 

On the otherhand, if I come home to a wonderful home-cooked dinner and slurp it up without a word of compliment, thanks or appreciation, then how many more meals do I get like that? How long does she pour her heart and effort into cooking for me? (BTW, I cook for her more often than she for me)

 

If she wants me to go to dinner with someone, and I put some effort into cleaning up my appearance, shaving that little forest that grows near my collar, make sure my shoes are shined and socks match, and she says nothing about the effort I put in to look nice for her, then when am I going to make that effort again?

 

I never ever gave compliments and was very critical when I first fell in love. In part, this was one reason she dumped me, and broke my heart. Now, I do. I learned that there was real value in paying them. It took me a while. And mostly, I took me becoming more secure in that I could give them.

 

If you want someone (your partner) to do something and they are not, then you need to either live without it or make then want to do it. How to do it, that's what you need to figure out for your man or woman, we all are motivated by different things. It might be aggression, passive-aggression, instruction, etc.

 

Yes, some men are emotionally handicapped. So, get him some crutches, teach him how to walk, make him learn to walk, and catch him when he falls. If you let him use the electric wheelchair through out life, he'll never learn to do it.

 

If your guy shows that he loves you, but cannot say it, then when he makes a little effort, show him you appreciate it. When he makes the same effort twenty times, try to draw him out further.

[DN]

Now the wedding and reception on the other hand... lol that I know what I want for sure

 

Have you given as much thought to the sort of marriage you would like?

[Mun]

How can someone who is not emotionally healthy form a good partnership? Luciana I commend you for seeking counseling and I encourage you to get your man in there too.

 

Your upcoming marriage is already tainted with so many issues ... there are things to work out before you promise your lives to one another.

 

I do see your point in your posts Luciana, especially what you said about your man's ex being the special person in his life. Could it be that you wonder if he is in love with you and that might be the reason for the un-romantic proposal?

 

I agree with the things Beec said and I'll admit I was a bit disappointed when you mentioned that you had asked for a cheaper ring because you were concerned with price etc. Not for money reasons, for other reasons.

 

I would recommend that althought you want to save money and all that you do not stop him in his intentions... let him give you what is in his heart to give you and you will see how he feels about you by that.

I have noticed that the women who have men doing wonderfully romantic and special things for them are the ones that hold back from making comments or suggestions and just receive, receive, receive...what is in his heart to give.

 

You can be an independent, sassy woman just the same . I hope that you at least take this piece of advice from me --even if you discard all the rest.

[PAdreamer]

I think the fact that he was very much in love with his first wife and refuses to talk about it says something. I doubt very seriously that this man is incapable of or unwilling to be romantic. I think that's he's very afraid of being hurt again. I think that HE thinks if he doesn't make a big deal of the relationship, then maybe it won't hurt so bad when you run out. I think he's too afraid of losing you to truly tear down the walls and expose his vulnerability.

 

I think he loves you, and he desperately wants to show it, but he's scared.

[sadgirl_april]

I think the fact that he was very much in love with his first wife and refuses to talk about it says something. I doubt very seriously that this man is incapable of or unwilling to be romantic. I think that's he's very afraid of being hurt again. I think that HE thinks if he doesn't make a big deal of the relationship, then maybe it won't hurt so bad when you run out. I think he's too afraid of losing you to truly tear down the walls and expose his vulnerability.

 

I think he loves you, and he desperately wants to show it, but he's scared.

 

Why do they make us suffer for somebody else's poor behavior? Does it mean if a guy was deeply hurt in the past, I should avoid getting involved until he is all good and normal? My bf refused to pull out his online dating profile, quoting he had pulled it out then been broken up before. He refused to pull out the profile until he is engaged!

[annie24]

I think the fact that he was very much in love with his first wife and refuses to talk about it says something. I doubt very seriously that this man is incapable of or unwilling to be romantic. I think that's he's very afraid of being hurt again. I think that HE thinks if he doesn't make a big deal of the relationship, then maybe it won't hurt so bad when you run out. I think he's too afraid of losing you to truly tear down the walls and expose his vulnerability.

 

I think he loves you, and he desperately wants to show it, but he's scared.

 

Why do they make us suffer for somebody else's poor behavior? Does it mean if a guy was deeply hurt in the past, I should avoid getting involved until he is all good and normal? My bf refused to pull out his online dating profile, quoting he had pulled it out then been broken up before. He refused to pull out the profile until he is engaged!

 

Wait. I don't understand. You're dating him, but he is basically telling you that he's advertising for someone else until he decides that you're good enough to marry?

[sadgirl_april]

annie24 asked:

Wait. I don't understand. You're dating him, but he is basically telling you that he's advertising for someone else until he decides that you're good enough to marry?

 

See this link removed

Now you put it this way, I see he is really mean. Why did I put up with it, I am angry at myself.

[PAdreamer]

I think the fact that he was very much in love with his first wife and refuses to talk about it says something. I doubt very seriously that this man is incapable of or unwilling to be romantic. I think that's he's very afraid of being hurt again. I think that HE thinks if he doesn't make a big deal of the relationship, then maybe it won't hurt so bad when you run out. I think he's too afraid of losing you to truly tear down the walls and expose his vulnerability.

 

I think he loves you, and he desperately wants to show it, but he's scared.

 

Why do they make us suffer for somebody else's poor behavior? Does it mean if a guy was deeply hurt in the past, I should avoid getting involved until he is all good and normal? My bf refused to pull out his online dating profile, quoting he had pulled it out then been broken up before. He refused to pull out the profile until he is engaged!

 

I think it's two different things. Putting up subconscious walls due to past hurt is one thing. Men and women both do it. But leaving your relationship open ended because he's not ready or he's just waiting for you guys to break up... That's just messed up.

[Luciana]

Well, an interesting thing happened this morning.

 

He is going to the therapist with me on Monday. Something interesting might happen there.

 

I told him last night he was showing very little interest in this upcoming wedding. I am the one doing it all. True it is a small wedding with only 50 people, but there are some things I left for him to arrange and he isn't doing it. He became unresponsive, gave me his back. Doesn't that infuriate women, when they clam up?

 

I went to sleep and work up this morning uspet. I told him if he doesn't want this wedding he should tell me now so I can cancel everything. I even mentioned the proposal again (I told him the way a guy proposes shows the level of enthusiasm for the wedding).

 

I was getting ready to leave when he surprised me. He took me in his arms and said he doesn't like to see me upset. Then he said "I feel VERY privileged to marry a woman as beautiful and smart as you".

 

Well, probably one of the nicest things he has said to me (even though it doesn't talk about love, but about the benefits of marrying me).

 

AFter rehashing the proposal story over and over with you guys, I decided to let it go. He knows very well how I feel. I can't change what happened now.

 

Beec: I have never accepted lousy treatment. I always showed him I disatisfied with something. I also compensate him when he tries hard. This morning I told him how much better I felt after what he said.

 

About very romantic guys: do they keep it up? I have never dated one. Does it necessarily mean they will be better partners? Some of them are just show offs to others. I know one guy like that. It's just a show ("look how nice and generous I am").

[Luciana]

Sadgirl, there might be a connection between men who have had their heart broken and difficulty in giving themselves completely again to a new person.

I read Jane Fonda's biography and all 2 of her husbands had had their hearts broken very badly-and both had problems with showing her love. Only husband number 3 (Ted Turner) was able to (but then he cheated on her several times).

 

SAdgirl, I know how frustrating it is to be with a man who doesn't express his love for you. If you stop doing it too, he doesn't care; if you do it, you feel it's a one way relationship and get mad. I think for these guys we are the last priority. I feel that after his business, his toys and his daughter there comes me to my fiance.

[Beec]

Luciana,

 

All I would like you to see is that after you withdrew last night, he came out did something fairly romantic. When you pulled away, he responded. Seems to work, huh?

[CarrieB123]

I read Jane Fonda's biography

 

That was your first mistake.

[ShySoul]

What is someone's definition of romantic? I think it isn't about romance or creative as much as it's about thinking of the other person. A proposal should be a reflection of the individual relationship. If the people are laid back and just say want to get married, it's fine if it fits with the couple's personality. If the couple likes to be fancy and have candlelit dinners, then thats fine. Anything can be romantic as long as it involves a special moment between the two and the joyful feeling of knowing you've found someone you want to spend the rest of your life with.

 

Personally, I would go for something that captures a special moment in the relationship. Try recreating your first date or the moment you realized you were in love with her. This could be anything from a fancy dinner to a late night walk to a baseball game. As long as it means something to both of you. Some special date that you still talk about and look back fondly on. It shows you think about that time, how much it meant to you. It shows you are thinking of a time when she was happy. It creates a romantic and somewhat nostaligic feeling. It's reflecting on the past while looking to the future, and saying you've loved her being in your life and need her in it for the rest of your life. And it is a private thing between the two of you, unique and tailored to your relationship.

[Luciana]

I disagree. Her biography was excellent. Maybe for right wing nuts it isn't, but I am a liberal and I had fun reading it.

Do you want drama, read Tatum O'Neal's biography. She had the craziest childhood anyone can have (maybe not as bad as MJ's).

[Luciana]

ShySoul, I agree with you entirely. Reflecting in what the other person likes is considering her needs.

 

Maybe you have a more laid back GF, or a more sophisticated one, or someone who likes adventures (propose on the top of a mountain after a hike etc.

 

In this case it means my fiance doesn't know me well enough to see I am not that matter of fact. Coming to the room and handing me the ring box and saying "now we're engaged" is not really my personality. I also don't like fake, cheesy and sappy stuff, but something more thoughtful would have been in my mind forever.

[Mun]

Luciana,

All I would like you to see is that after you withdrew last night, he came out did something fairly romantic. When you pulled away, he responded. Seems to work, huh?

 

Hmm... I think she should do this more often, sounds like he does not like to see Luciana upset and only when she pulls away does he do something about it. Might be a good way to get him to come out of his "closed up" state.

[Luciana]

Ha ha..believe me, I get upset enough.

Maybe he just had had a good night's sleep...he has sleep apnea...and felt rested and nice...

 

I do think he wants to marry me, and I do think he recognizes he has a problem. Let's see that the therapost (a woman) will say on Monday.

[PAdreamer]

Shysoul, I agree with you. Like I said, my proposal wasn't lavish compared to some. But it was perfect for us. PERFECT! So many details of that day were great!