My forgiveness mechanism seems broken or severely eroded

[Unreasonable]

So, I've been with my wife for 23 years. Over the course of our marriage, she's averaged an emotional affair probably every 5 years, but I managed to forgive her each time, fairly quickly, and hadn't seen at as a pattern yet. So starting about 5 years ago, I kind of checked out, didn't pay enough attention to her, and over time said some awful things to her that I regret (in no way do I want to portray myself as the "perfect husband" here). This caused her to check out, which I detected thanks to an awful lot of time here seeing other people's problems. She had started to have an emotional affair with one of my coworkers (she scarecly even tried to hide it, she was THAT checked out), and even though I had already started making improvements by then, this shocked me into "Mr. Fix It" mode, being in an awful position of trying to save the marriage, while simultaneously being actively wronged. That's really hard position to be in.

 

Well, fast forward to now, all that stuff is over, we went to counselling, that guy's out of the picture, I've grown a lot and consider myself a fairly model husband (at the moment at least), I can tell she's committed to our marriage, and she seems happy and is very affectionate. Sex life is good (although it always has been good). The thing is, I've now recognized the pattern, and just can't trust that this isn't going to happen again. I can't make her promise that it will never happen again, because she now recognizes there has been a pattern, and it would be disingenuous to say she is now perfect and would never do anything wrong regardless of circumstances, only that she has no intentions to.

 

I've ask what steps she will take to ensure this will never happen again, and the best I can get out of her is she will come to me when she's feeling that way again. I think she has good intentions, but I really doubt that is actually going to happen when she's in the thick of it. People don't tend to think logically when they're in the thick of it. I also don't know what the heck I'm supposed to do if she does come to me. Give her more affection? Okay, how much? How much is enough? She can't really quantify that. Also this kind of puts the onus on me, which doesn't sit right, as I don't believe there's any excuse for infidelity, even if it takes two to tango with relationship problems. Really.... that's the best she can come up with? She'll "come to me?"

 

So, even a year after things smoothed out and we've been playing nice, I'm in the position of not truly having forgiven her. I haven't said I have forgiven her, and she hasn't asked for it, although she has apologized for her actions. I've had the feeling (to paraphrase Jurrasic Park) that I was so preoccupied as to whether or not I could save the marriage, I didn't stop to think if I should. I mean, I did think about it, but it was mostly logistical type stuff, we have 4 kids, I didn't want to get hosed in a divorce, etc. I weight the pros and cons of divorce, and the cons won. I also think I went in wanting to be able to reassure myself that if it didn't work out, I did everything I could, and gave it a good college try.

 

I also have this PSTD-like thing (not diagnosed so don't please don't take offense to the comparison), where I reflect back to those times, am instantly back there, feel angry, clench my jaw, and have a ton of negative self-talk about her. These are, of course, all things I'm sure she went through herself when I started improving after being an inattentive ass. I hate it, but I can't stop.

 

So, even though everything seems peachy from the outside, it's really not where it needs to be, and I am worried if I will ever get there, or how to get there. Forgiveness has always come relatively quickly in the past. I don't want a mentality that if does this again, I'll leave her (and I most certainly will), and that I'm just biding time. I'm 45 years old, and don't want to be a 50 year old divorcee. I don't want to think about it at all. I'm afraid my mechanism for it has been eroded too much to bounce back, but I don't know for sure. How do I get there?

[Wiseman2]

The best thing you can do is "just listen". Yep that's the key. No advice, no interruptions, no tv, phone, etc. Let her talk and just "be there". That's it.

 

Sometimes the act of talking in itself is what she needs more so than for you to act on anything. Keep in mind it's to express 'her feelings' not facts or info or anything you need to do anything about. She just wants you to know how she feels. Yep, that's it.

[shessofly]

How long did the counseling sessions last and what did you feel was accomplished? Do you think individual counseling for each of you would be helpful? It seems to me that until she deals with the root of why she continually engages in these affairs you have just cause to be hesitant or feel safe in your marriage. Sorry.

[reinventmyself]

I agree with individual counseling. Not to say this is on you. But it will help you come to terms with the questions an uncertainties that you have.

I don't envy your position. Your title mentions broken. You aren't broken. You are very entitled to feel the way you do.

But you need to figure out a way to be in the marriage instead of indefinitely riding the fence.

 

Sometimes it isn't always about trusting the other person.

It's often more important to trust yourself.

[thealchemist]

I have dealt with this personally before. IMO if she continues to have emotional affairs it is because she isn't getting everything she needs from you. Now what she expects from you might be unrealistic. I don't know, neither of you probably do either. You have to find out what your wife needs to complete your marriage or this will continue. My advice would be to throw your entire self into your marriage. Hang out together, talk a lot, have dates. I personally feel like any relationship should be all or nothing. It might just be a lack of attention or excitement. You just have to supply whatever she gets from these emotional flings in your daily relationship. It also isn't your fault. Just wanted to say that too. But the fact is you are not giving her all she needs. Either attempt to expand and improve your relationship so it can thrive or end it. If you can improve it to mutual a satisfaction then life with your wife can be amazing. Best of luck, been there and it sucks.

[mustlovedogs]

First, I want to start with giving you kudos. You seem very self aware. I think that's a good thing. However, you think your forgiveness mechanism is broken. It's not. You're reacting normally.

 

Agreed that listening is the first step. And going to a counselor. You don't owe her your forgiveness, but you DO owe yourself happiness and good mental health. If you can't ever forgive her, that's normal, too - and a counselor could help you work through this and discuss next steps.

[Unreasonable]

Sometimes it isn't always about trusting the other person.

It's often more important to trust yourself.

Thanks, right now I don't know if I'm so angry at her, as I am angry with myself, and projecting on her. When I have these feelings it's always past tense, not current-her, then-her, but it feels like the present when it's happening. It's like wanting to feel "holier than thou", but knowing I have no room to be. A feeling of uncomfortable comeuppance. Not healthy I know. I'll look into my own counselling.

 

When you're looking for this kind of counselling, what type do you look for? Will just any old therapist do?

[WithLove]

When you're looking for this kind of counselling, what type do you look for? Will just any old therapist do?

 

Can you see if your marriage counselor does individual relationship counseling, too? Some do and it'd be handy since this one knows your story already.

[LaHermes]

No, Unreasonable.

 

Will just any old therapist do?

 

Get the best. Check the Professional Association of Psychologists/Therapists in your country, state or province. They will have a list, probably online, so check out till you find what therapist best suits your needs.

[Unreasonable]

How long did the counseling sessions last and what did you feel was accomplished? Do you think individual counseling for each of you would be helpful? It seems to me that until she deals with the root of why she continually engages in these affairs you have just cause to be hesitant or feel safe in your marriage. Sorry.

 

I wanna say we did 4 or 5 sessions or so. Maybe more, but then I lost my job for a couple of months and we stopped going. I think they were fairly productive at first, but near the end we both agreed we were at the point of diminishing returns with the therapist (he obviously had a pre-set formula of how the sessions should play out, what to talk about, what exercises to do, and seeming like he wasn't absorbing stuff because he never wrote anything down). Some of the things we went over is what happened, why to stay married, and why she did what she did, which did involve me having been inattentive and unappreciative. I had already begun working on that before we saw the counsellor, but I guess there was some lag time with her resentment (possibly similar to what I'm going through now).

[catfeeder]

What, exactly, does 'emotional affair' mean, and did wife ever exchange body fluids with anybody?

 

Do you mean an intense friendship, and in what ways did this rip you off?

 

If you're aware that wife has formed these relationships relative to cycles of lousy times in your marriage, what promises can you offer her that you won't fall into the same cycle of habits yourself?

 

I'd consider what, specifically, I don't trust--that she won't behave as she has in the past, or that you both won't?

 

It's not about blame, it's about learning how to negotiate. It starts by recognizing that if you want promises that are of value to you, you'll need to come up with a trade of promises that are equally of value to her. Successful couples do this all the time, and it can help you trade any grudges you hold for any grudges she might hold about you.

[Unreasonable]

What, exactly, does 'emotional affair' mean, and did wife ever exchange body fluids with anybody?

No bodily fluids (that I know of - I have no proof and she denies it). Inappropriate intimate conversations over several months. Trashing me behind my back. Pic exchanges. Basically textbook emotional affair stuff.

I'd consider what, specifically, I don't trust--that she won't behave as she has in the past, or that you both won't?

I am fairly confident that I'm a changed man and would not take her for granted or put her down and be as inattentive as I have in the past. The thing is though, she's very social and attention-seeker. She just is. Can't go through a checkout-line without striking up a conversation with the checkout person, male or female. She is aware, I believe, that a lot of men think that if a woman pays attention to them she wants to screw them, but figures she's in control. Thing is, she's failed striking that balance on multiple occasions. She'll facebook friend people she barely knows at the drop of a hat (that's how the thing with my co-worker started, they met at one of my work parties, facebook friended, started private messaging, etc., etc.). When I lost my job (mass layoff, not related to this) I was relieved as I was humiliated being in the same building as the guy.

 

What I doubt about her, is that once she gets in her mind that I'm not paying attention to her enough (and I don't know if that's even possible by any one man), she WON'T tell me, or at least won't be direct about it, and won't give me solid quantifiable idea about what "more attention" is, as you can't quantify that as easily as say, sex frequency. And I don't trust that she is strong enough not to cross boundaries once she starts crushing on someone. To be fair, I do think it's normal to have crushes, and she doesn't have crushes on a frequent basis, I just don't think she knows how to control it when she does (or have the inclination to control it if I'm not being Super-Husband).

[catfeeder]

What I doubt about her, is that once she gets in her mind that I'm not paying attention to her enough (and I don't know if that's even possible by any one man), she WON'T tell me, or at least won't be direct about it, and won't give me solid quantifiable idea about what "more attention" is,

 

This is the thing to negotiate. Negotiations are a fair trade of something of value to you in exchange for something of value to her. So raise the specific point above--not in an accusatory way, "I can't trust you to tell me..." but rather, "My fear is that when you don't tell me whenever you feel neglected by me, you complain about me to others instead. I'd appreciate it if you'll do two things: 1) make a list of words and behaviors you want from me as regular demonstrations of my attention and love. 2) a commitment to tell me whenever you feel neglected by me.

 

My promise to you is that when you tell me you feel neglected I'll give you something from your list--and if I'm too busy or tired at that moment, I'll hand you a 20 dollar bill on the spot (no I.O.U's) along with an estimate of a time I'll be more able to give you what you want.

 

You may also want to schedule a regular check-in time with one another each week. For instance, a half hour or an hour every Thursday night is reserved for one another to discuss your week and any issues that have arisen during that time. When you both know that this ritual is a given, then neither of you will feel like any unresolved stuff you're holding without communication will remain unheard.

 

Lastly, but most important, I'd schedule a regular date night that's off the calendar for anything else. This is where you take turns surprising one another with an outing or event or home-camp-in dinner where you spend time only with one another. Time with kids or another couple doesn't count. This is not the same as your check-in time, which is for relationship 'work,' this is the time to treat one another to fun.

[Unreasonable]

All good ideas, catfeeder. Thanks.

[BelliniBella]

Speaking from own experiences, I reccomend you both to learn how to communicate w each other better. I was at this point too once, when I was not good communicator. I was not able to tell my man what I want and need. He tried fix every problem for me, he tried find solutions for everything, he tried this and that.. But deep down I just wanted him to truly listen, be affectionate and not find solutions! I wanted him help at home, have intimacy conversations and so on. I was unhappy, i couldt talk my needs effectively and so they werent met, and he was unhappy, because he thought he did everything for me but I was never satisfied. Flustrating and repeating cycle. However, what learnt me and my bf to communciate our needs was... A book! I know it is cliche. But try to read "5 languages of love", you two together. So she can comment it and you can find out what is she missing. If some other guy can emotionally support her, why isnt she open the same with you?

[BelliniBella]

Have u ever heard about "Histrionic personality disorder"? What you describe sounds so familiar to that. But i dont know your wife.

[Unreasonable]

Have u ever heard about "Histrionic personality disorder"? What you describe sounds so familiar to that. But i dont know your wife.

 

LOL, you're the second person on this forum to describe her that way. I once showed it to her, and she didn't deny it, but said it hurt her feelings. I think she's actually backed away from some of the traits since then, maybe in a conscious attempt not to be that. I've heard that it can decrease naturally with age.

[EternalOptimis]

I am so sorry to hear that buddy. I have been there. And recently

 

WE briefly went to counselling during her denial (he's just a friend) stage. It did nothing for us. She later admitted my breaking up with her (the first time) was the only thing that jolted her into ending her affair. It was too little too late for us as she did nothing to repair the trust she breached.

 

I think you've been a saint forgiving regular indiscretions. I highly recommend going to a therapist. YOUR therapist. People have affairs because there's something wrong with them or something wrong with the relationship. Someone focused on you will help you see if it's something that can be fixed.

 

I hear what you say about divorce and I've been there too. The costs (financial and emotional) are high, but if it's permanently broken, make your peace with living a lie or bite the bullet. I pray for you it's not permanently broken and wish you the best.

 

Watch the TED lecture by Esther Perel on Infidelity. It helped me