Unattractive (physically) beating out the attractive (mentally)

[ParisPaulette]

Sigh, this has devolved into yet another one of those "us versus them" arguments.

 

Dougie, go hire a dating coach. We're not there, we can't tell you what you're doing wrong. Seriously, this is getting old as is the whole women are shallow and only want guys who are good-looking n rich 'cause no we don't all want that.

 

And the terms "top tier" and "low tier" shouldn't be applied to anything but whiskey, scotch and tequila or you are doing life all wrong.

 

P.S. Did you ever consider it might be where you live or that you're trying to fit into an area that you don't actually fit into. If you go to Comic Cons of any sort you will find far more people who enjoy the types of things you say you do than say trying to crash a Hollywood party of actors or a business cocktail meeting with Fortune 500 types.

 

Find your tribe young man, find your type of people. It makes everything so much easier, trust me on that one. I did not fit into the L.A. scene, but where I live now I am totally at home in so many different ways. I love being able to walk into a place smelling of horses and leather, have someone eye my boots and ask me, "What breed of horse?" We can then talk for hours about you guessed it, horses. I walk into a store in L.A. like that and they are liable to tell me to get out while everyone curls their lip at me. Same goes for you. Find the place or places you fit in, the rest does follow.

[Andrina]

What would I do? Ask my friends/relatives if there's anything I could do which would improve my odds in attracting the opposite sex. I'd ask them to be frank regarding my hairstyle, clothing, hygiene, anything good or negative/off-putting about my personality/demeanor.

[Blue Spiral]

I would love to see some scientific evidence for that since you are giving such specific numbers, I assume you can provide those sources.

 

Just because I'm so incredibly helpful:

 

 

 

"As you can see from the gray line, women rate an incredible 80% of guys as worse-looking than medium. Very harsh."

[Blue Spiral]

You're caught in a vicious cycle, Dougie. If you want to get laid, you'll need confidence...but you can't have any real confidence until you get laid. Women are practically superhuman when it comes to sniffing out insecurity.

 

I'd normally never recommend this, but, for an emergency case like yours...you should try PUA/Game. It depends too much on quantity and repetition, and I consider it to be unethical, but you'll at least start to catch up sexual-experience-wise.

[Moontiger]

Just because I'm so incredibly helpful:

 

 

 

"As you can see from the gray line, women rate an incredible 80% of guys as worse-looking than medium. Very harsh."

 

Awesome quote mining there. Here, I'll finish the full statement for you,

 

"On the other hand, when it comes to actual messaging, women shift their expectations only just slightly ahead of the curve, which is a healthier pattern than guys’ pursuing the all-but-unattainable"

[ParisPaulette]

Just because I'm so incredibly helpful:

 

 

 

"As you can see from the gray line, women rate an incredible 80% of guys as worse-looking than medium. Very harsh."

 

Riiiight, because one online dating site is now the be-all, end-all authority on what women want.

 

Funny, but you forgot to leave out this little paragraph right here:

When it comes down to actually choosing targets, men choose the modelesque. ... Site-wide, two-thirds of male messages go to the best-looking third of women. So basically, guys are fighting each other 2-for-1 for the absolute best-rated females, while plenty of potentially charming, even cute, girls go unwritten.

 

But you don't hear me whining about that now do you? So it cuts both ways. I can look at this same article and say, "Well, there you go. Men also don't want anything but models and ignore anyone they feel to be "below top standard" too.

 

BTW the pics of the "average girls" to me were better looking, the top ones were just little girls, the women below were women who were older. What does THAT say about the whole issue? Apparently if I'm not a 20-year-old supermodel I'll be overlooked according to that "article."

 

Trouble is none of that is true.

[Moontiger]

Heres an actually scientific study for us all to ponder: /

 

"They found that only 1 woman out of the 50 undergraduates in their sample actually identified “dominant” as one of the traits she sought in either an ideal date or a romantic partner. For the rest of the dominant adjectives, the two big winners were confident (72% sought this trait for an ideal date; 74% sought this trait for an ideal romantic partner) and assertive (48% sought this trait for an ideal date; 36% sought this trait for an ideal romantic partner). Not one woman wanted a demanding male, and only 12% wanted an aggressive person for a date and romantic partner. In terms of the nondominant adjectives, the big winners were easygoing (68% sought this trait for an ideal date; 64% sought this trait for an ideal romantic partner) and sensitive (76% sought this trait for an ideal date and ideal romantic partner). Not one woman wanted a submissive male for either a date or romance. Other low-ranked nondominant adjectives were shy (2% for dating; 0% for romantic) and quiet (4% for ideal; 2% for romantic)."

[Blue Spiral]

I personally think that men use online dating primarily for sex, while women use it primarily for relationships. That would explain why the male stats are the way they are...we're just using it to get laid, so we aren't taking it all that seriously. But it makes the female stats look worse, because they're actually being that demanding in a more serious context.

 

The simple truth: the women of ENA will give Dougie all sorts of advice, but it won't do any good, because he doesn't need advice: he needs sexual experience, the confidence that comes from it, and (semi-related) increased social proof, which is usually tied to money and success. Imagine a man dying of thirst in the desert, and a woman standing there with a glass of water. He can't figure out why he can't find any water, and she keeps giving him all sorts of advice to find some, while not sharing the water she has. He shouldn't be listening to her advice, he should be noticing her decision not to give her water to him, because it explains why he doesn't have any: women don't think he's worth it. Until that changes, he's going to be stuck in the same situation.

 

Actions speak louder than words. When I was younger, I had all sorts of women try to help me with my "relationship problems", but they always wanted me to solve my problem with someone else. They blamed my problems on all sorts of things--all of which were my fault, of course--but I eventually stopped listening to them and used my eyes, instead. Women routinely get involved with guys that have tons of problems and issues. The women that gave me advice were sleeping with guys that led messy, disastrous lives, making it clear that they had different standards for guys they wanted to **** and guys they didn't want to ****. I never solved my issues, but I found ways to get plenty of sex. Dougie, if you can convince women that you're worth it, they won't care about the things that are holding you back. If I'd listened to the (platonic) women in my life and put their style of self-improvement over getting sex, well, I'd probably be in the same situation that I was back then, because god knows I haven't changed all that much. Instead, I found ways to get sex. You need to stop asking for advice and start asking for sex.

[Moontiger]

A more accurate way of describing Dougie's situation is someone who wants to work in a hospitle but refuses to gain the skills and knowledge to do so. Instead they ask for short cuts and tricks. When told the truth, "Well, to work in a hospital you have to do a lot of hard work, like going to medical school. To do that you need to do very well in an you undergrad classes and it really helps if you go to a good school with a well known program." they ignore all of it and instead complain that no one will give them a chance to work in a hospital "just because I don't have experience!". The only "trick" is putting in the work, time, and effort needed.

 

If you want to change your situation you have to do the work needed to change it. Not just expect the world to hand you things. Dougie I suggest you read this and take it to heart: /

[TMifune]

I personally think that men use online dating primarily for sex, while women use it primarily for relationships. That would explain why the male stats are the way they are...we're just using it to get laid, so we aren't taking it all that seriously. But it makes the female stats look worse, because they're actually being that demanding in a more serious context.

 

The simple truth: the women of ENA will give Dougie all sorts of advice, but it won't do any good, because he doesn't need advice: he needs sexual experience, the confidence that comes from it, and (semi-related) increased social proof, which is usually tied to money and success. Imagine a man dying of thirst in the desert, and a woman standing there with a glass of water. He can't figure out why he can't find any water, and she keeps giving him all sorts of advice to find some, while not sharing the water she has. He shouldn't be listening to her advice, he should be noticing her decision not to give her water to him, because it explains why he doesn't have any: women don't think he's worth it. Until that changes, he's going to be stuck in the same situation.

 

Actions speak louder than words. When I was younger, I had all sorts of women try to help me with my "relationship problems", but they always wanted me to solve my problem with someone else. They blamed my problems on all sorts of things--all of which were my fault, of course--but I eventually stopped listening to them and used my eyes, instead. Women routinely get involved with guys that have tons of problems and issues. The women that gave me advice were sleeping with guys that led messy, disastrous lives, making it clear that they had different standards for guys they wanted to **** and guys they didn't want to ****. I never solved my issues, but I found ways to get plenty of sex. Dougie, if you can convince women that you're worth it, they won't care about the things that are holding you back. If I'd listened to the (platonic) women in my life and put their style of self-improvement over getting sex, well, I'd probably be in the same situation that I was back then, because god knows I haven't changed all that much. Instead, I found ways to get sex. You need to stop asking for advice and start asking for sex.

 

I'd just ask the women of ENA to really read this post before they get defensive. This post really highlights the experience of many men who simply haven't found much romantic success with women. Guys get told by the women in their life to do A,B,C and they'll find success. Meanwhile those women are chasing guys that never do A,B,C but only G,K,M. That discontinuity is really at the heart of the nice guy / bad boy crap. And it's that disconnect between what women say they're interested in, and the qualities that they actually pursue that make me skeptical of any study that comes from surveying women on their beliefs instead of studying their actual choices.

[Moontiger]

Recently I got turned down for a job I was very qualified for. Because I know the hiring manager a bit I was able to ask what I should have done better. Her response was completely applicable to this situation.

 

She said the I did nothing wrong, gave a great interview etc but that people with at least 5 more years of experience also applied and that's why I didn't get the job. So now I have a choice to make: be bitter or work hard at beefing up my experience.

 

The same principle applies here guys can either complain women won't give them a chance OR go about improving themselves.

[TMifune]

If we want to make an apt analogy:

 

She said I did nothing wrong, gave a great interview, but she's looking for someone with not just qualities A-Z, but also the list of qualities represented individually by the entire arabic alphabet. And that when she found the right applicant she's sure she'd just have some "just right" feeling hit her from the sky. She tells you that she's sorry, but she's sure you'd make some other job really happy one day, and then, as you're leaving the room you hear a conversation between her and her coworker.

 

HR: "God, I'm so depressed. I'm just never going to find anyone to fill this job."

CO: "Well, she had a lot of good qualities, what if we took a chance on her? She doesn't have everything you wanted, but she might do a really great job."

HR: "God no. I'm not going to settle."

CO: "Well, we've had this job req open for years and we haven't found anyone qualified and you're really not offering enough compensation to get someone with all those qualifications"

HR: "I will not settle for less than what I want, even if I have to do the job myself!"

 

But, this is pretty much pointless, because any struggle that a man faces with regard to dating / romance must remain un-vocalized. Giving voice to his struggles is met with scorn and derision that ultimately shows exactly how much some women care about men.

[ParisPaulette]

Sweet jeebus, this has gotten out of hand over some guy just wanting feedback on how to get some female attention.

 

Meanwhile the world is going to Hades in a hand basket and I have sons who will possibly be shipped off to war sometime soon. So much for relationships. Mine just gave me cannon fodder for the next old man to send young men out to die. Hooray, so happy other people have their importances straight.

 

How's that for bitterness? Take a long hard look people, this is the most honest thing I've ever said and yeah, it sucks. So what? This is life and life isn't fair. Deal with it.

 

This thread has run its course.

[Jean-Luc]

Sweet jeebus, this has gotten out of hand over some guy just wanting feedback on how to get some female attention.

 

Meanwhile the world is going to Hades in a hand basket and I have sons who will possibly be shipped off to war sometime soon. So much for relationships. Mine just gave me cannon fodder for the next old man to send young men out to die. Hooray, so happy other people have their importances straight.

 

How's that for bitterness? Take a long hard look people, this is the most honest thing I've ever said and yeah, it sucks. So what? This is life and life isn't fair. Deal with it.

 

This thread has run its course.

 

People come here to vent their frustrations, that includes how "unfair" life is. I think you're almost proving their point by acting like they should just suck it up and deal with it. I would have to agree that it seems like a lot of the time men aren't allowed to complain about anything, especially when it comes to women. People in general don't like for people to complain because it makes things harder for them when they do.

[Batya33]

People come here to vent their frustrations, that includes how "unfair" life is. I think you're almost proving their point by acting like they should just suck it up and deal with it. I would have to agree that it seems like a lot of the time men aren't allowed to complain about anything, especially when it comes to women. People in general don't like for people to complain because it makes things harder for them when they do.

 

Complaining with no mention of steps taken to alleviate the situation, and no relevant response to suggestions, about the same situation over and over again, doesn't sound too productive for anyone including the complainer.

[TMifune]

Sigh......there's no real understanding here. There's no real effort at understanding here. And what's even worse, there is actual resistance toward understanding.

 

Imagine watching scores of women you care about choosing to be with guys that they pretty much know will hurt them upfront, but they still chase after these guys and pass you over constantly. Imagine women would rather be heartbroken than take a chance on you, even though you've got a decent job and your respectful and kind and generous and caring, a good conversationalist etc. Can you understand how utterly devaluing it is that women continue to consciously choose guys that hurt them over you again and again? (Think pretty much every Taylor Swift song in the last 3 years). How do you think that feels. "I'd rather have my heart ripped out over and over again than be with someone like you!"

 

The entire point of my response to Blue Spirals post was to ask that people step back and have just a tiny bit of freaking empathy for what that's like. That's it. And nobody did, they doubled-down on the derision and scorn. And that's fine, but drop the pretense to being a remotely sympathetic or compassionate person and just come out and say "As long as I get mine I don't give a flying crap what happens to anyone else." At least that would be honest. I could respect honesty.

 

Off topic: Paris....I'm sorry that this world gives you reason to worry about your sons. I hope that whatever conflicts they face in life they have the tools to face them and come out stronger.

[dias]

I'd just ask the women of ENA to really read this post before they get defensive. This post really highlights the experience of many men who simply haven't found much romantic success with women. Guys get told by the women in their life to do A,B,C and they'll find success. Meanwhile those women are chasing guys that never do A,B,C but only G,K,M. That discontinuity is really at the heart of the nice guy / bad boy crap. And it's that disconnect between what women say they're interested in, and the qualities that they actually pursue that make me skeptical of any study that comes from surveying women on their beliefs instead of studying their actual choices.

Feign the bad boy until you get laid and problem solved .

[Batya33]

I do have empathy. Dating is extremely hard and requires a thick skin and is often unfair. I dated many more years than the OP - 24 (on and off when I wasn't in an LTR) and had to watch multiple friends get engaged/married/have babies when that is all I ever wanted. I got rejected, disappointed, assaulted, harassed.

 

And I never allowed myself to get jaded or cynical other than for extremely short periods of time. After yet another disappointment I'd have my pity party and then go back to the drawing board. I vented to friends but not ad nauseum (well maybe to my mother)because I was too busy getting right back out there, trying new things, new places, new activities, new ways of self-improvement.

 

And none of that guaranteed success - and I never ever had those expectations so I never thought it was "unfair" other than for those short pity party periods of time. So I empathize with how hard it is but I cannot relate to the OP when he complains that he should be able to crack dirty jokes and be a goofball and have an easy time attracting women who are looking to get to know someone in a dating relationship. There are women who would be into that but he's limiting his chances by his choices and then complaining when according to him he is not successful at meeting people. If I saw the OP take more responsibility for his own choices I think he would get a lot more empathy.

[saluk]

Heres an actually scientific study for us all to ponder: /

 

"They found that only 1 woman out of the 50 undergraduates in their sample actually identified “dominant” as one of the traits she sought in either an ideal date or a romantic partner. For the rest of the dominant adjectives, the two big winners were confident (72% sought this trait for an ideal date; 74% sought this trait for an ideal romantic partner) and assertive (48% sought this trait for an ideal date; 36% sought this trait for an ideal romantic partner). Not one woman wanted a demanding male, and only 12% wanted an aggressive person for a date and romantic partner. In terms of the nondominant adjectives, the big winners were easygoing (68% sought this trait for an ideal date; 64% sought this trait for an ideal romantic partner) and sensitive (76% sought this trait for an ideal date and ideal romantic partner). Not one woman wanted a submissive male for either a date or romance. Other low-ranked nondominant adjectives were shy (2% for dating; 0% for romantic) and quiet (4% for ideal; 2% for romantic)."

 

Ouch. I kind of have to criticize the jab against okcupid's data collection science which observes real human behavior, and propping up of a self-reported survey approach as "real science". They both have their issues. I for one find much more value in observing trends as they happen vs sending out surveys. But of course I have to step on my own argument - the focus of the okcupid research can only really apply to online dating and extrapolating to all forms of dating and coupling is of course misguided. They only measured messages and responses, not content.

 

Which I think is something people really need to consider on topics like these. These questions and complaints are usually prompted by ones own observations. Ones own personal "research" you could say. It is just research that is usually much worse science than either of the above examples. What is your sample? Which women are you watching to see who they end up going with? It is going to necessarily be a quite biased sample. I will always go back to my high school experience where all the girls went for other guys, except for the ones who I wasn't paying attention to. Those girls were either not getting any guys at all, or wanting to get with me except I did not see the signs.

 

Who are you ignoring Dougie? Who are you passing by who might appreciate who you really are underneath all of those insecurities? Stop trying to fix yourself or figure out how to overcome your shortcomings. It's not really about that. That's looking at the problem instead of the solution. Sometimes you have to let life happen and affect you and change you. Take a second look. Try to see the events in your life from a greater perspective than just the lens you are used to looking through. Maybe you'll find something. You're clearly searching for something, and I'm pretty sure you've exhausted whatever those on this forum can really show you. What is out there in the world that IS available to you?

[Blue Spiral]

The entire point of my response to Blue Spirals post was to ask that people step back and have just a tiny bit of freaking empathy for what that's like. That's it. And nobody did, they doubled-down on the derision and scorn. And that's fine, but drop the pretense to being a remotely sympathetic or compassionate person and just come out and say "As long as I get mine I don't give a flying crap what happens to anyone else." At least that would be honest. I could respect honesty.

 

It's sad, yeah. And yet, it's a perfect example of what we're talking about: actions versus words. Women say we should express our emotions more often...and yet, the second we do, it's "stop whining" and "you don't have it as bad as us".

[Batya33]

It's sad, yeah. And yet, it's a perfect example of what we're talking about: actions versus words. Women say we should express our emotions more often...and yet, the second we do, it's "stop whining" and "you don't have it as bad as us".

 

Well no -no one is telling him not to whine - I am simply suggesting that whining is fine and then after expressing how he feels, express what steps he plans to take to make changes. He is not posting to say "I just want to whine" - he is whining and asking for input. Once he dismisses the input or makes excuses as to why he won't make changes, people are responding that he needs to start taking responsibility for his choices. None of that is about whether he should express emotions -he should.

 

I don't believe in asking anyone to express their emotions more -men or women -unless the lack of expression affects me personally (i.e. instead of expressing "I am angry" the person acts out physically in a hurtful way).

[journeynow]

If you are not physically attractive to someone, how EXACTLY does this person overcome the physical part you desired?

 

Can answer this yourself if the tables are turned? In other words, how would a woman you find physically unattractive get your favorable attention and interest, become attractive to you "overnight"? Have you known someone that you were at first you were turned off by and later found more appealing? If so, what changed, why did it change?

[Dougie_D]

Can answer this yourself if the tables are turned? In other words, how would a woman you find physically unattractive get your favorable attention and interest, become attractive to you "overnight"? Have you known someone that you were at first you were turned off by and later found more appealing? If so, what changed, why did it change?

 

If she gives me a lot more attention.. like if she's really INTO me. I've mentioned this before, as for me, most women become turn-offs INSTANTLY when they talk about how they like other men... specifically my roommate. My roommate tried to hook me up with this girl (at first I wasn't attractive to her, but I gave it a shot).. all she did was talk about how great my roommate was. I got over that. That's really annoying.

[Dougie_D]

People assume that I'm not trying to change. I'm actually working on losing a bit more weight, but I can't lose 20 lbs and get ripped instantly. Plus, many women say that having a great body isn't exactly a turn-on.. so I get mixed feedback.

[saluk]

People assume that I'm not trying to change. I'm actually working on losing a bit more weight, but I can't lose 20 lbs and get ripped instantly. Plus, many women say that having a great body isn't exactly a turn-on.. so I get mixed feedback.

 

Personally I don't think you need to change very much. I don't know why it hasn't happened yet for you - it may be just one of those things. Some people just get the short end and that's just how it is.

 

Yes, you do get mixed feedback. You are going to get mixed feedback. And you've seen on this forum that anything that you ask, you are going to get a wide range of viewpoints and opinions. This holds true with people you date as well. Every girl you end up going out with is going to have her own set of opinions and ideas that may be completely different from any other girl you have ever dated.

 

If you are always trying to find new advice and change yourself to something else to fit some profile that you think is going to be successful, you are never going to be comfortable with who you are, and finding that confidence you seek is going to be difficult. You have to take the advice you get and figure out which of it you really agree with, and learn for yourself what version of you you are comfortable being, and kind of stick with it for a while. When people talk about self confidence, the self part is probably the most important part! "This is who I am, and I like me, and if you don't like me, that's too bad for you, because the person who I care most whether they like me or not is me, and I like me!" It may seem like arrogance, but I think that attitude is really powerful. If you really want a great body, go for it for yourself! Maybe there are other areas that could be better worked on, but it doesn't hurt, and if that's what you want the most, why not? It's your body.