How do you know if you're being emotionally abused in a relationship?

[Fudgie]

TOV, you know the city I live in... I have searched for specific emotional incest therapists and have found none. Only family therapists with no real emotional incest experiences with patients. I'd be willing to work with someone from afar if it weren't too expensive.

 

I am currently emotionally unable to go to therapy and I will not go back until I find someone with a specialty.

 

I'm getting to a point where it doesn't hurt all of the time, just only some of the time, everyday. I think about it so often still. I still communicate with and see my parents but there is a deep sadness. I've started worrying about them dying almost obsessively.

 

I'm start of mulling over what to do, too. I know I should return to therapy when I find the right one, but I don't want to feel that deep pain anymore than I have now. I mean, I don't owe it to anyone to change. I am not married. I don't have children. I am tied to anyone really. Yes I'm with N but we aren't married and I can technically leave at any time and so can he.

 

Sorry, I was just thinking lately. N and I went to a social event with friends who are coupled up. All have spent a year or less with their partners and are already talking engagement. N and I have been together over 2 years and, like all of my relationships, I don't really plan for marriage because I don't see it in the near future, if at all. I'll talk about it on occasion but no real plans or even timeliness. I was chided for not moving faster. Sort of underlined for me how despite it all, the relationship isn't solidified with a ring so if it doesn't work out, then we can part.

 

I guess my point is, I'm trying to weigh my options, what I want to do. Could I spend a life largely single and alone? Maybe. I used to practice Buddhism for several years and practiced non attachment and really tried to get to that point where I could forsake all others if I had to.

 

Thing is, I can't do that with my dad. I hit an internal wall. If in some other parallel universe, he asked me to have his child, I would say yes. You guys know me... You know that's crazy right? I'm a walking Freud example and I just feel so ashamed for talking about it. I feel like I wasn't meant to be this way and if I had been smart enough to see and deal with it sooner, I wouldn't be here. I feel like it's all my fault yet I can't stop.

 

I just feel like a case study. This isn't what I wanted for myself. My father taught me about Freud when I was only 6 years old. He told me the theories and he said that they were true. I wish they weren't.

[Miss Firecracker]

A six year old would be pretty overwhelmed with Freud. Your father treated you more as a peer than as a child. He must have been very lonely at the time. I am sure he would do things differently if he could only go back in time. I have my parenting regrets, and I'm sure we all do. There are so many things we don't realize as younger parents.

[Fudgie]

He was very lonely. My mom had her hands full with my siblings. I felt very pushed-aside at the time. I understand it now but I was so resentful then. I was resentful of her.

 

My dad was resentful too. I think many men in his position would have left or cheated. My father did neither. He participated in some high court cases to help lawyers and had PIs trailing him for months for the other side, looking for dirt, even watching our house. He always thought it was funny and reveled in it. "I have nothing to hide. Come watch me."

 

Now he's older and he's very involved with his hobby and he's more at peace, it looks like. Less time at work, definitely more time at home. Better with my mom that's for sure. I am at a point where it makes me happy to see them happy together.

 

I don't think he meant for this to happen but it did. I don't know if he regrets it or not. Not sure if he knows he was much it has changed me and influenced me as a person.

[Fudgie]

See, here is my main issue.

 

This whole thing, it is like a thorn in my side. It has been there forever. But I fear that pulling it out won't just hurt, but it will destroy me emotionally. Like, that "thorn" is connected to all of my organs, my aorta, everything. Pull it out and I am unable to sustain myself and I just wither away.

 

Everything is connected.

 

My career choice.

My degree choice.

My college choice.

How I grew up. My hobbies growing up.

My hobbies now.

 

My gender even. I went through a period of years in my childhood where I would dress as a boy and wanted to be called a boy's name and demanded everyone called me that. Except for school, because I felt that was bad but at home yes. My dad told me years later that he felt it was penis envy. I just felt isolated from other girls and wanted to be a boy. I wished to be a boy for several years, secretly, ending only when I began to grow breasts. I gave up then.

 

My hair. I grew out my hair when I was 12 because I made a conscious choice, because I read that Freudian thought believed That long hair = sexual feelings. I felt I had sexual feelings so I should grow it out.

I have not changed in 12 years.

 

My father, while not Buddhist, introduced me to Buddhism.

 

I have made our with my cousin because of this.

 

I have been with girls sexually because of this.

 

My interest in older men is influenced by this.

 

I feel I've gained weight over the years partly because of this, because I am shielding myself from something.

 

 

My whole life, I feel like I was running away from something, something bad, something dark, something that made me feel like life needed to swallow me up.

 

I now know that what I've been running from is inside of me and now I can't remove it because it's tied to everything that makes me "me".

[Fudgie]

This just feels so far gone. I don't know if I can overcome this. Maybe it just needs to be treated but it won't be cured. I lack the mental fortitude. Maybe I can reach sole semblance of peace by accepting what's happened and try to lead a life where I can live with it.

 

Maybe I am not fit to be in a relationship but I can accept that. I don't need a relationship.

[Miss Firecracker]

This just feels so far gone. I don't know if I can overcome this. Maybe it just needs to be treated but it won't be cured. I lack the mental fortitude. Maybe I can reach sole semblance of peace by accepting what's happened and try to lead a life where I can live with it.

 

Maybe I am not fit to be in a relationship but I can accept that. I don't need a relationship.

 

I think you are fit to be in a relationship. You were doing very well with this one until your boyfriend pushed you against the wall. Maybe you need a different partner, but please don't ever think you are unfit, Fudgie. I think you are a very decent, very intelligent person. We are all messed up inside, at least that's how I see it now. I know I am, and everyone I am close to is. We are all just struggling to survive. I hope you will make it through this and start to feel some happiness again. I think you will make it.

[Seraphim]

You are not too far gone Fudgie. Really. You are not.

[penelope13]

Fudgie, you are doing really well!

 

You might not see it like this and it won't feel like it at the moment, but your ability to start talking about this here is a huge step forward! Acknowledging what has happened needs to happen first before you can start learning how to put things into a new perspective. Obviously you can't change the history, but you can learn a new way of dealing with the feelings and consequences.

 

Everything that you have described is quite natural for your history, no thought, feeling or behavior is 'crazy or too far', but it was bound to happen and occur in this way as a consequence of your family environment.

 

Thus why I am sooo convinced that you can work through this and find happiness for yourself. Be it as a single person or within a relationship, with N or with someone different.

 

I think you are doing the right thing. You don't have to be convinced right this moment that everything will work out, you just have to focus on each day at a time.

 

It's also only natural that you can't do it by yourself and will need outside help. When you are too close it's near impossible to see the way out thus don't be hard on yourself for not knowing exactly what to do and how to do it.

[abitbroken]

Fudgie,

 

Also search for therapists who deal with "covert incest" - that is another name for emotional incest. I think that you should look for therapists who deal with boundary issues, physical incest, etc, as you can be quite sure they have dealt with emotional incest, too. Just like therapists who have helped people who were in physically abusive relationships are quite well equipped to deal with emotional abuse because that is where it usually all starts.

 

Also, above all, emotional incest is a severe boundary issue.

 

The best thing is to find those people and then talk to them on the phone to ask if they feel equipped for your issue.

[abitbroken]

BTW, maybe it was already mentioned, but have you read this book?

 

Silently Seduced, Revised & Updated: When Parents Make Their Children Partners by Kenneth Adams Ph.D. and Patrick Carnes Ph.D. (Sep 1, 2011)

[Fudgie]

I haven't read that book, abitbroken, but I'm looking into it.

 

I've searched for special therapists for EI in my area and haven't been able to find ANYTHING. I really don't want to return to therapy unless I'm going to see someone who deals with this issue as a specialty.

 

BTW, I am not in the middle of nowhere. I'm in a big city. Still no one. I'm feeling very discouraged.

 

N and I have been doing better. I am putting more time into my job though. It makes me feel better. I am trying to accept that this relationship may not last and that it may be in my better interests to remain single (or at least unmarried) until I figure things out, and that may never happen, but I'm starting to feel that it's okay. I can still seek male companionship in other ways if I am single. Life doesn't need to be over for me.

 

I think I just need to concentrate on my family and enjoy them while they are still here. I need to look at life from another angle and know that I can be perfectly happy going about this on my own.

[NymphaeaLilly]

I just bought that book that abitbroken suggested (I've finishing a first year of my training to become psychotherapist so it was on my to-read list anyway). I haven't read it already just skimmed over it and it looks promising.

 

I've got a vibe from you that you don't really wanna change anything, you'd rather live this very limited and unhealthy life than do something about it. It always baffles me how resistant people are to change even if it's for their own good.

[Miss Firecracker]

It sounds like you won't be needing a therapist for now. I think you are beginning to figure this out.

[Seraphim]

Fudgie,

 

I am so glad you are finally feeling a little better. That is crucial.

 

Sometimes the best therapists are those who have had trauma in their lives. They have the ability to understand that it is very scary to deal with certain things. I did not continue therapy after my early teens and only did so after I was forced to by a physical collapse. I had always been so so so terrified to open Pandora's box. I was terrified I would fall apart. There is a lot of terror in these issues and it is why many people do not want to delve into them. I was so very happy to find that my EDMR therapist has had trauma in her life so she completely understands me. I am not happy it happened to her of course. I am happy she has the capacity to 1000% understand me and how I feel. I totally believe that those who have not had trauma just can't relate. Do I think they can still be a therapist and a good one? Well, yes, but they will still lack complete understanding. One can not truly know what they have not experienced.

 

So maybe when looking for a therapist maybe scope one out who would have complete understand for your situation.

 

It is like the best addiction therapists are ones who have been addicts.

[NymphaeaLilly]

I totally believe that those who have not had trauma just can't relate. Do I think they can still be a therapist and a good one? Well, yes, but they will still lack complete understanding. One can not truly know what they have not experienced.

 

That is just not true! Therapist who has had same experience as you sometimes get stuck in what is called "counter-transfer" which is a bad thing for the client (i don't wanna get into the details). Every therapist that has specialized in certain field is capable to help you the same as the therapist who has had the personal experience. It's very ignorant of you to claim what you just did.

In your case I think you were just more open to the therapy once you found out your therapist went through the same thing as you.

[Seraphim]

That is just not true! Therapist who has had same experience as you sometimes get stuck in what is called "counter-transfer" which is a bad thing for the client (i don't wanna get into the details). Every therapist that has specialized in certain field is capable to help you the same as the therapist who has had the personal experience. It's very ignorant of you to claim what you just did.

In your case I think you were just more open to the therapy once you found out your therapist went through the same thing as you.

I am not saying she went through the same as me. I'm saying she's been through trauma.

 

You may think it is ignorant but I don't. I absolutely believe you don't know how a person feels until you've been through something yourself.

[Seraphim]

That is just not true! Therapist who has had same experience as you sometimes get stuck in what is called "counter-transfer" which is a bad thing for the client (i don't wanna get into the details). Every therapist that has specialized in certain field is capable to help you the same as the therapist who has had the personal experience. It's very ignorant of you to claim what you just did.

In your case I think you were just more open to the therapy once you found out your therapist went through the same thing as you.

 

And would also be wrong about something else. My other therapist who I see has had no significant trauma in her life. I'm not any less open to therapy with her. In fact I've made significant bounds with her in the last year.

 

Like I've said before you don't have to like my advice I really don't care.

[Cheetarah]

I just bought that book that abitbroken suggested (I've finishing a first year of my training to become psychotherapist so it was on my to-read list anyway). I haven't read it already just skimmed over it and it looks promising.

 

I've got a vibe from you that you don't really wanna change anything, you'd rather live this very limited and unhealthy life than do something about it. It always baffles me how resistant people are to change even if it's for their own good.

 

Maybe she does not right now. I think plenty of people are resistant to change and are only capable of it when they're really open to 'the devil you know vs the possibility of the devil you don't'. If she isn't, then she isn't. But rest assured Fudgie is a very resourceful woman and your advice and resources have not gone to waste. She will touch them when she is ready to. That could be next week or next decade.

[Cheetarah]

On that topic though, I personally wouldn't want someone who knew what it was like(or at least, made that known to me). Like it helps you, Vic, to know that - It would hinder me to be aware of that information. Therapy treatment is individually tailored anyhow so even if they knew what worked for them and tried to tailor my plan to follow suit, it may not necessarily help me.

 

I think if you so choose - Your best bet might to contact therapists who specialize in trauma and ask if they have any experience with emotional/covert incest treatment. I live in a humongous metro area and was not able to find anything with the specialty, solely.

[Seraphim]

No ,no, I'm not saying for the therapist to tailor someone's program to what helped them. What I am saying is that it brings me great comfort to know that I am understood. It might for Fudgie as well. That is why I offered my perspective.

[Cheetarah]

The comment I made about that was tied into the whole counter transference thing.

[petite]

Most therapist understand their patients and want to help them, even if they might not have gone through the same trauma their patients have. I was also under the impression that therapists [usually] do not discuss their personal lives and traumas with their patients. They are trained professionals, they do not necessarily need to have experienced significant traumas in order to help someone. It's all about what the patient needs, not what the therapist has experienced in their personal life.

 

Fudgie, even though things are a bit calmer now, it might be a good idea to continue searching for a new therapist and perhaps just try and work on it, these feelings usually just don't go away. Would it be possible for you to find someone in another city, and video chat instead of going in to their office, if it's too far?

[Fudgie]

Things just hurt a lot right now so I am trying to move on with life and feel good for a while. Nymphae, your help has been appreciated... You probably don't understand my point of view because I doubt you have gone through trauma like this. Have you worked in a hospital yet? I do. Meet someone who is 500 lb and you wonder why they don't diet. It's easy for you to say why not. They themselves are in turmoil and pain and even changing causes pain. Therapy is painful. For right now it's easier for me not to explicitly deal with it. I am not saying that this is best for me. But I feel like it's all I can deal with for now.

 

I am open to video chat with a therapist. Nearest other city is over 2 hours away. So probably not that. I will keep looking though. I'm determined to find someone who has this speciality.

 

I am still seeing my family once a week. Talk to my parents every couple days. N deals. I only se3 my parents together. Progress.

[tiredofvampires]

I gave you the name of a therapist, (and a group that you might look into) in your area, Fudgie, dealing with childhood sexual trauma, including incest. I hope you got that.

 

As I mentioned, it is not wise in my opinion to limit yourself ONLY to someone specializing in "emotional incest". Though I said before in another post that it's crucial for your therapist to understand the dynamics of incest, emotional incest, or subtler forms of incest and parent-child bonding would fall under a larger heading of incest. So you want this specialization, but you don't want to cut it so fine that you narrow yourself down to someone who has to specialize only in the type of situation that you had. A broad range of incest clinical experience is what to look for.

 

Even childhood sexual abuse is a bit broad, but many therapists would be equipped to deal with the dynamics you're dealing with. These dynamics are not as uncommon as it would seem, even though the subject is comparatively taboo. (I have a very dear friend who had EI issues with his mother, but it wasn't as sexualized as in your situation, it was more about him being a surrogate husband, emotionally.) So this is where your interviewing the clinician and being very clear with them what you're needing is going to be important. But I would not limit yourself too much to just "EI", when there are overlaps with that in many kinds of trauma and abuse, and certainly incest in general. That should definitely be something they understand and feel confident treating, but it doesn't have to define their practice. I don't think you're even going to find someone who deals with that alone, as it's inseparable from other dysfunctional family dynamics where that has occurred.

 

As for countertransference, it got a pretty bad rap when Freud first postulated what it consists of, which is the emotional and psychic issues the therapist themself may not have resolved, projected onto the patient. This negative view has evolved significantly over the last century, and in the psychodynamic school of therapy (which is derived from psychoanalysis, aka the work of pioneers in the field of the unconscious, such as Freud and even moreso, his contemporary, Carl Jung), countertransference is considered an essential part of the therapy. In that, when a therapist examines their own emotional response to a patient, they may use that to better understand that patient's psychology. Countertransference has come to be seen in the wider psychological community as an inescapable part of being a therapist, since we are all human, and emotions in another, through empathy, will evoke emotions in us. Trying to deny that is no longer considered ideal for a therapeutic situation. The danger is when a therapist gets lost in their own reactions and is not aware and vigilant about analyzing their own response as a tool to help the patient.

 

I have seen so many therapists in my life that it would be a pretty daunting task to list them all and not forget anyone. And what I have found is that those who were simply academically trained were missing that "je ne sais quoi" of "getting" me. They often had the most "pat" answers to things, and more cerebral responses to me that were not attuned to the nuances of my emotions. The ones who I either knew had had something challenging that they disclosed, or I could sense that they had, usually had a superior intuition that helped me more. And I believe intuition, not conceptual knowledge, is about 95% of effective therapy. I've been with a surprising number of therapists who knew how to ask a number challenge-type questions, but they were surprisingly not intuitively tapped-in questions. And these therapists were considered "good" and skillful by reputable sources. Therapists know that some patients will thrive with them, and others totally won't.

 

This is all very personal, what someone needs in a therapist. I believe there is a very delicate fine line between a therapist disclosing too much of their personal life, and disclosing just enough for them to feel real, human, and to bring constructive anecdotes to the table. How much a patient wants in that balancing act is completely individual, but in any case, a therapist has to have the skill to make that balancing act work.

 

I do know, having a lot of friends over the years who have gone professionally into therapy, and interacting with many of them socially, and even having a couple in the extended family, that it's common knowledge in the field that people are drawn to the field first because they are figuring themselves out. Most are "wounded healers" to some extent. I've had so many people tell me from inside the profession that therapists are some of the most screwed up people there are, haha. And that, surprisingly, makes them the best therapists. The more they have struggled themselves, oftentimes, the more professional success they've had, even if they never tell a client what is going on in their personal lives. Which they don't need to do to do their work. That's a personal stylistic call. So that's a bit of perspective there.

 

And yes, there is great therapeutic value in situations where a survivor is guiding a patient or client with their own history used as an essential element in the therapy. These are more peer-mentoring type situations (I think ENA functions like that to a large extent), but that can be as effective as a traditional counselor-patient arrangement, or in cases, moreso. There are a lot of youth programs for kids who are socially at risk where the counselor is known to have been a truant, in and out of jail, been bullied, gone off drugs and cleaned up, etc. and these are sometimes the only people a kid will listen to. Just as an example. Teaching and healing by example is very powerful, though it's usually not utilized in a standard psychologist-client relationship, as that is set up with a different vibe of the therapist having "authority".

 

So I'm getting a little carried away, but I think many kinds of therapeutic dynamics can work, as long as the therapist is competent in the process of separating their own feelings from the client and effectively helping them to explore the issues, and provide concrete suggestions that resonate with the client on a very individual basis. The problem with many therapists is that they have a cookie-cutter approach, and every client is unique.

 

I think the most important thing for you, Fudgie, is to find one that creates an engaging dialogue with a versatile background of family emotional and sexual abuse, a good amount of interest and experience with incest in particular (and I think anyone who has counseled people who have been in cults would be an excellent fit, though harder to find), and has a manner that is both authoritative and conversationally animated and non-threatening. Just given your personality.

 

In any case, I do understand your just wanting things to stabilize and to feel better. It's good you're feeling better. But it's also important to know that this plateau will not last, and so it's actually better to be in therapy when it's not CODE RED, so you have more resilience. This is actually a good time to be in therapy, when it's not CRISIS time. All of what has happened is going to resurface and so it's better to start taking off tiny bites now at an incremental pace than to go in when you're suicidal again and can't think as clearly. Remember, you can tell a good therapist all of what you've said here -- that you feel like you need to stay at a more stable "holding place" and that you fear digging in too deep and becoming unhinged again, and they will take that into account and work with the pieces that can be worked with. I think you need to balance taking the baby steps here with a desire to "just make it go away", so that you're preparing yourself to better deal with upheavals as they arise.

[Seraphim]

Thank you SO much TOV. Brilliant as always. Thank you so much for getting what I mean.