How do you know if you're being emotionally abused in a relationship?

[abitbroken]

I'm just wondering, with this relationship being a bit seasoned, why now has he stepped this demand up. \

 

I was in a relationship with someone who experienced IE. I will say that in the beginning, you are a sounding board. You don't hold their family situation against them as they can't help it. As things go on, maybe 8 months, a year, maybe 2 years later you are no longer the compassionate person on the sidelines - you are in the family dynamic and see everything and how it really affects you and others. That is exactly what happened when I was in N's shoes. It may have been ongoing or a defining moment that makes the person realize that its not just something at arm's length.

[chitown9]

I'm just wondering, with this relationship being a bit seasoned, why now has he stepped this demand up. \

 

I was in a relationship with someone who experienced IE. I will say that in the beginning, you are a sounding board. You don't hold their family situation against them as they can't help it. As things go on, maybe 8 months, a year, maybe 2 years later you are no longer the compassionate person on the sidelines - you are in the family dynamic and see everything and how it really affects you and others. That is exactly what happened when I was in N's shoes. It may have been ongoing

or a defining moment that makes the person realize that its not just something at arm's length.

 

I agree with this. Relationships change as time goes on and people become more vested in one another.

[tiredofvampires]

I'm just wondering, with this relationship being a bit seasoned, why now has he stepped this demand up. \

 

I was in a relationship with someone who experienced IE. I will say that in the beginning, you are a sounding board. You don't hold their family situation against them as they can't help it. As things go on, maybe 8 months, a year, maybe 2 years later you are no longer the compassionate person on the sidelines - you are in the family dynamic and see everything and how it really affects you and others. That is exactly what happened when I was in N's shoes. It may have been ongoing or a defining moment that makes the person realize that its not just something at arm's length.

 

I understand that, but that wasn't what I was getting at with my question to Fudgie.

 

I just wanted to know if there was some trigger that set him over a "tipping point" which occurred. I wanted to know if some situation with Fudgie's dad had happened recently, or if it was just a series of things.

 

Everything you say is right, but I was asking a more specific question about what had happened, if anything, recently, for N to feel he'd come to some threshold of tolerance, triggering the ultimatum.

 

Maybe it was nothing "outstanding" in particular, but I just wanted to know that much.

[Fudgie]

I started to spend a little more time around my family and voiced a desire to see them once a week, even on just a weekday while he was working, didn't matter. He didn't like that at all. It really took him aback.

 

For me, I am getting to a point in the relationship where I love him but don't feel the need to be around him 24/7. I am not really wanting to go out more or meet new people, just want to see my family a little more.

 

Most guys would be thrilled, I'd think. No, I'm not going to a club. I'm not dressing up. I'm not meeting anyone new. I just want to see my family a little more.

 

I understand it's different because of the EI but it still frustrates me.

[penelope13]

Most guys would be thrilled, I'd think. No, I'm not going to a club. I'm not dressing up. I'm not meeting anyone new. I just want to see my family a little more.

 

I understand it's different because of the EI but it still frustrates me.

 

I would recommend not using arguments such as 'most guys would be thrilled ....' because you are each individuals and each relationship is different, but look at your individual situation.

 

You can't argue that for one particular aspect he should act like xyz because that is what majority of people do and in the same breath demand something that most people would certainly struggle with a lot.

 

 

Why are you not going to clubs? Why are you not dressing up? Why are you not meeting anyone new? - not because he demands that, but because these are YOUR choices. So your internal dialog here is the expectation that he should understand you and your preferences and that you have somewhat 'earned' his understanding because he should be grateful for your behaviors xyz.

 

Please don't misunderstand. I'm not trying to say that you are in the wrong and he is in the right, but I'm trying to show you that our own behaviors and negotiation patterns however well intended they may be can come accross in a very different way. My intention here is to make you understand YOURSELF better, nothing else.

 

N may not be the best partner for you, he for sure has said some unforgivable things to you, but I trust you have your reasons why you continue to be in a relationship with him.

 

However, I don't think you fully understand the enormity of having the constant fear and feeling of being in a relationship triangle rather than in a relationship of 2. Personally, even if I had all the compassion and understanding in the world, I would struggle enormously if my partner would continuously try to minimize, gloss over, or even sometimes rather pretend something like EI never existed and expect me to be fine with having to feel that I'm emotionally second. That it is to a parent of my partner would just make it so much more difficult.

 

I understand where you are coming from. It's difficult enough for you as it is to deal with your own history. You never experienced proper boundaries and you are struggling with even recognizing what is and what isn't appropriate in a parent child interaction. Thus you don't even understand yet the lasting impact your family dynamics has on you and your entire being. It's a lot to expect that you would know what secondary impact it has on your interaction with people outside your family structure.

 

Personal growth and learning new thinking patterns is a slow process, but it all starts with understanding yourself first.

 

You said that you remember the post where you describe the looks that you exchange with your father at dinner and even elaborated on it. You make it sound as if it is the most normal thing in the world. And yes, in your world and in the way how the world was presented to you it was 'normalcy'. It is NOT your fault that you don't feel the intrinsic shock by situations like these and that to you they seem nearly trivial. On an intellectual level you realize that this is not how the majority of families interact, however emotionally you don't feel that yet. That is what EI does to you. Completely blurring the lines of which emotion belongs where. You have been on ENA long enough to have read plenty of posts where someone complains that their partner is 'just looking' at another person for too long and how much agony it can cause them. Some things that don't occur in the physical realm (such as an interchange of looks or a shared smile) can have major impacts on the emotional well being of a person and the stability of a relationship.

 

So you wanting to 'just spend a little more time with your family' is not as trivial and harmless as you want it to be. Have you explained to N what your motivation is behind this? Have you said to him that you are trying to work through the EI and learn more healthy patterns? If you haven't expressed that to him it should not surprise you that this is freaking him out because his fear that you may get entangled more is a real one.

 

I feel there is a lot of frustration and lack of understanding on both sides. (by understanding I'm not talking on an intellectual level, but on an emotional one). I believe that you can work through it and that you don't necessarily have to decide for 'either side'. However this will require a lot of honesty (to yourself and each other) and a new way of communicating with each other from both sides.

[Fudgie]

You're right. I don't get it. N says he wants me to feel that shock and disgust that he feels but I don't feel it. Ugh.

 

Is it possible to ever change and be able to feel it? I'm not sure if I can. I feel like all I can do is recognize that's it's wrong.

 

I have told N I want to improve the relationships and male them more more appropriate but he doesn't believe it's possible.

[penelope13]

How would you feel if N was to start interacting with that girl who tried to chat him up? Or if you all were out together and he kept exchanging those kind of looks with that woman, right in front of you?

[penelope13]

Is it possible to ever change and be able to feel it?

 

It's not necessary for you to feel disgust.

 

But once you start FEELING how this is impacting you and what has been robbed from you (regardless if it was unintentional, misguided etc) you will be able to change your emotional reaction to it.

 

When you say you want the interaction to be more appropriate, what do YOU mean by it specifically? Not based on what you think the interaction should be like, or what others think the interaction should be like.

 

What is it that YOU want to be different about it? The more specific you can be about this, the more useful it will be for you to move forward. I.e. start thinking about how the interaction makes you feel beyond the initial rush of 'oh I still have this connection with him'. Start looking at the emotions behind that. Why do you FEEL you want to change it?

[Seraphim]

Why do you want to be with someone who feels you have no hope of improvement?

[Fudgie]

How would you feel if N was to start interacting with that girl who tried to chat him up? Or if you all were out together and he kept exchanging those kind of looks with that woman, right in front of you?

 

I'd lose my godd__mn mind, that's what.

 

I know the point you're making. I get it intellectually. I don't feel like it's same, emotionally. Maybe it is to N.

 

I want to be able to have a relationship with my Dad that doesn't leave me feeling conflicted or confused. I don't want to idolize him anymore. I want to able to feel like I can someday live without my parents and be able to function by myself.

 

Vic, it's not that he doesn't think I can improve. He thinks I can. We disagree on how. He thinks improvement is only possible by cutting things off. He doesn't think an appropriate relationship is possible. I disagree.

 

If he felt like I was beyond help in any way, he wouldn't be with me right now.

[penelope13]

I'd lose my godd__mn mind, that's what.

 

Why would you feel/ react like that? How would it make you feel if he was doing that?

[penelope13]

I want to be able to have a relationship with my Dad that doesn't leave me feeling conflicted or confused

 

What are you conflicted and confused about?

 

 

PS: I hope you don't mind me asking you so many questions, am just trying to help

[Fudgie]

I don't mind. I'll answer in a bit.

 

He used my phone to call his friend cause his was acting up. He saw that a couple days ago my dad called me and it was missed. And then he saw that I had called him back. He grilled me about that for a while but didn't seem too upset. He asked about what we talked about, what he wanted. He was Irritated yes. He told me that he wished my dad wouldn't contact me at all.

 

Inside though, I was very upset. I can't stand that. I still feel like bursting into tears. I feel like him treating my dad like an ex boyfriend makes everything worse and I've tried to tell him that but he said that's how he feels.

 

I felt like the past day and a half was really good and I was making strides. Now I'm back at square 1 emotionally and I wish I could just numb myself.

 

I can't take this anymore.

[penelope13]

I feel like him treating my dad like an ex boyfriend makes everything worse

 

worse, how?

 

As in 'more real'?

[Fudgie]

As in, it just makes me feel bad. I don't know if it makes it more real. I go back and forth on that. Part of me thinks it makes it more real. The other part, which is louder, thinks he's making it a bigger deal than it really is. I don't know what to think anymore.

[Fudgie]

I just think "wow I can't even have my dad call me without getting the 3rd degree" and then I just go into a bad self pity cycle with myself again.

[Seraphim]

I don't think this relationship is worth your emotional stability Fudgie. I really don't.

[penelope13]

It's a very natural reaction to feel bad, feel extreme anxiety, panic, distress etc when triggered into thinking about these kind of issues because it's mind boggling to have to realize what your history has been. it's a survival mechanism from your brain to want to shut down and not having to think about difficult things.

 

minimizing and trivializing your experience is also a natural defense mechanism.

 

Thus don't be hard on yourself for these feelings.

 

However, if you want to learn new thinking patterns and emotional responses, you have to push through it and deal with the underlying fears and other emotions. this is usually best done within the confines of therapy with a professional.

 

 

Regardless of N and the relationship with him, your family dynamics unfortunately IS a big deal. Not because of this particular romantic relationship, but because of the effect it has on YOU, your sense of self, your identity and relationship with yourself, your body image, your identity as a woman.

[Miss Firecracker]

I don't think this relationship is worth your emotional stability Fudgie. I really don't.

 

Me too. This is not going to work out.

[Fudgie]

At this point, I don't know what's going to happen in the future with N and I.

 

Even if I broke up with N, I'd probably end up staying in the same apt, with some $$ help from my parents. If I wanted to live by myself, I could rent a small studio in a not so great part of the city and I would, but my mother won't let do that again given what's happened in the old place.

 

And I'd rather live alone in a ghetto than have a roommate again, that's for sure.

 

Right now though, I don't want to let go. I still want to give it more time.

 

I know for a fact if I leave N now, I will probably stop going to therapy, spend loads of time with my family, and not think about this anymore. I'll be really, really happy and not have to worry about this again. I could always find some sap man who has no idea about my dynamic because I wouldn't tell him and so I could carry on things without him knowing at all.

 

As tempting as that all sounds, I know I can't do that, at least, not yet.

[Fudgie]

Right now, I'm trying to take it a day at a time.

 

I need to drag my behind back to the newer therapy place to help find a new therapist. I'm dragging my feet. It's a $25 copay so I shouldn't complain.

[Miss Firecracker]

Funny you mentioned your parents helping out because I was really wanting to suggest that. I know they wouldn't mind one bit if they knew what was going on and how very miserable you are right now.

[Fudgie]

I don't want to be a burden. I know I'll have to lean on the again when I'm in grad school. I've worked so hard to be as independent after college. I get a little help on my car insurance and that's it. I pay for everything else and I never ask for help now. I am so proud of that.

 

I feel like not only would it be a blow to lose a boyfriend that I love, but then I have to go sniveling back to them because I can't afford to live in a non ghetto place by myself. I want them to be proud of me and not have to worry about me.

 

I know if I told them that I think about suicide on a daily basis, they'd be very upset. We've been down this road before. I can't hurt them like that again. Also, going to the hospital with a reported suicide ideation would not only ruin my reputation but also probably make me ineligible to get weight loss surgery in the future if that's what I choose.

 

N was particularly horrible one time and I just said "f it" and drove home and spent some time with both my parents. I cried and said that I was feeling upset. No one can comfort me now like my mom can.

 

I wish I could tell the full extent but I can't.

[tiredofvampires]

I am very strongly in favor of your finding a new therapist -- I actually think it's the single most important step you have to take now. It's long overdue, imo. So it's good you're doing that, but there's a BUT --

 

This therapist is going to have to be a specialist in incest/EI, particularly parent-child incest. Because it's a dynamic that has some very specific features not shared with most other types of family dysfunction.

 

For this reason, I think it's very hard for anyone to sit in judgment of N for his wanting to see progress at a certain pace, or asking for what he's asking as a condition for the relationship continuing (even though it's unwise and unrealistic for him to ask it of you; ultimatums may in cases be justifiable and yet they rarely work, and in this case, it's just not a reasonable one). As you know, I'm the last person who endorses jealous and controlling behavior, but my thoughts here mirror NymphaeLilly's and Penelope's, in that having a partner who is quasi erotically entangled with their opposite sex parent is not something most people could say, "my partner needs to work this out in their own time" about. It's NOT like having a partner who was molested/raped/verbally/emotionally abused in any other way, is estranged from mean/neglectful relatives, etc. Most people have difficulties thinking their partner may have feelings of a questionable nature for an opposite sex individual, let alone if that individual is a parent, which creates a unique challenge within the relationship. So it should not be compared to or equated with other types of issues where difficult family relations are concerned.

 

I think your current therapist is clearly not trained or equipped to deal with this very specific kind of abuse -- and it IS/WAS abuse. It's not overt like some other types of abuse, but it's the abuse of control. I sense that your dad has a very strong need within him to control others whom are in an inferior position to him, in his professional capacities as well as his personal life. I see what goes on with the incestuous bond as very similar to that which a cult leader develops with devotees -- he creates a sense of omnipotence by emotionally preying on another's most vulnerable emotional needs (which as a child, you naturally have), appointing himself as indispensable. This is one reason people can't leave cults, emotionally -- they have come to feel entirely devoted to this figure, even if it's damaged them. This is why even the suggestion of putting distance or space between you and your dad is so agonizing, and why it only backfires on N when he suggests such measures.

 

As a measure of the abuse, I don't need any more proof than that you once posted in a journal here a picture of a Freud action figure he gave you as a "present," as a nod to your "daddy issues." Who does that? Certainly, no healthy father. If it were just a passing developmental "girls are in love with their daddies" that innocently ends with childhood as girls grow into women, why would he encourage that in you, his grown daughter, or make light of it as if it were a joke? You have to be fairly twisted to capitalize on such a dynamic, as a parent.

 

The reason what you've experienced is so difficult to reconcile is because there is just enough love and true kinship between you and your dad that the violation -- which is mostly subtle, ambiguous, and very insidious -- presents a deep conflict. The more insidious the abuse, the harder it is to even identify what is causing your distress or to trust in its legitimacy. If this were just brute violence, the betrayal would be very obvious, and it would almost be easier to define what sort of relationship to have with that. In some ways, it's easier just to frame people as consummate monsters or lousy parents, and get closure on that at some point. But when the person who has betrayed or violated you also loves you and has protected you, as well as established themselves as all-powerful, an almost impossible dichotomy is set up in your mind, and to prevent yourself from the pain of "betraying" the person by becoming angry, defiant, or outraged at them, your mind has to find some way to settle this "dispute" of cognitive dissonance. And so it's very understandable that rather than reject anything about this person, you actually psychologically need to embrace them more, to overcome the conflict and the contradiction (which generate guilt feelings).

 

I think you can heal from this and develop a more appropriate relationship with your dad, but this is going to be formidable, since it's one-sided. Relationships usually only change for the better when both people are aware of what they want to change, and so if you alone are trying to change the dynamic with your dad but he's in denial about all this, that greatly impedes your own progress as long as you continue to interact with him. Because his keeping things at status quo does not support your making important shifts, and your trying will go against the grain. One thing is for sure, that relationship will have to be different from the current one. And so N is not too far off to think that if the relationship remains just as it is now, it's not likely the accompanying feelings in you will have changed. This is what needs to be dealt with with the help of a very skillful therapist.

 

First you have to be able to get to the point that you viscerally (not intellectually) let yourself feel outraged at the fact that he has done things to cultivate these problems and dependency in you. One of the hardest things you'll ever have to do is to acknowledge that you were abused, that he abused you and his power over you, without watering it down or minimizing it. Right now, every time such a thought comes up, it is overpowered by the conflict that creates since you love him and have many reasons to admire/respect him. Being able to come to terms with having been abused by him is really the issue, not N's abuse (which is the opening subject of this thread.)

 

I think that the road to having more appropriate feelings eventually, and a more appropriate relationship will involve you being able to grapple with and ultimately resolve this feeling of torn loyalties you're dealing with -- on the one hand, the loyalty to your intuition that things have occurred which have damaged you, which make his behavior inexcusable and unacceptable; and on the other hand, your loyalty to him as this person who has been your role model, protector, and provider.

 

I am not a therapist, let alone one trained to deal with the extremely intricate and complex dynamics that need to be negotiated, and how to cope with the feelings that come up. But I believe the core of the work will have to center around dealing with this impossible "dilemma," and you being able to recognize that he was abusive.

 

This is going to require very specific, directed work with a therapist, and so I feel very strongly that you will need to seek out this particular specialization in a therapist. Not just "trauma" or "abuse", but THIS, precisely. Is the place you're going to equipped with such a therapist?

 

You need to interview the therapist and tell her or him point blank that this is your core issue, and that if they do not have experience in this area, you would like a referral to someone who does have extensive experience with this particular type of problem (incest/EI). All this work you've already done has been good to push you in the right direction, and one good thing is that it's spot-lighted exactly what you need to focus on. But it's not going to work to have someone who just nods and says this is inappropriate but has no directives for you about how to manage the relationships right now, how to steer the processing of emotions around this. You NEED this in a therapist, so you need to discuss this upfront.

 

I really have a huge beef with therapists who don't have the professional insight or integrity to know when they have come to their limit of knowing what to do, to guide the patient accordingly.

 

I can't possibly over-emphasize though, Fudgie, how important STAYING in therapy is for your recovery and your life. Simply put, I don't believe you can get there without therapy, so for the sake of your whole life and future, thoughts of leaving therapy and trying to shove this back under the rug should not be entertained.

I have more to say, but I've been stretched somewhat thin lately. So I'll post more later.

 

((HUGS)), I know you have the capacity to recover, but the hardest work is ahead of you, and you're going to need more than a 2-bit therapist talking to garden variety depression or family issues.

[penelope13]

I agree: do everything that you feel is necessary for you to have the energy, courage, and incentive to continue with your therapy. Your reasons and motivations don't have to make sense to other people and you don't have to justify why you require those things.

 

But therapy will be the only way for you to work through everything and to get to a point where you are not in constant pain, thus that should be your primary focus.