My experience with attraction: can anyone relate?

[Blue Spiral]

I used to think I just had bad timing.

 

ENA--and, obviously, the world as a whole--is full of people who are stuck in patterns/cycles that they can't get out of. They keep trying, but, no matter what they do, they can't seem to progress beyond a certain point. It's almost like they're cursed. Unfortunately, I have all too much experience in this area. My personal curse had to do with attraction, communication, and what we'll call "timing."

 

I'm ashamed to say that it took me a long time to figure this out, and an even longer time to successfully implement it in my own life. My path to realizing it started around ten years ago. Don't worry, I'm not giving you the full Blue Spiral Origin Story, just a quick chapter of it. (Unfortunately, it's a middle chapter, and the middle sections of these epic stories tend to be downers. See Empire Strikes Back or The Dark Knight.)

 

I was 24, and I had two relationships under my belt. Well, one legit relationship (when I was 19; the girl was my first love, and I was an emotional wreck for years afterwards), and one close-but-not-quite relationship that was more of a healing rebound (when I was 23; the girl was troubled and basically vanished on me, but I did get a threesome out of it). My second legit relationship was still in my future, but this isn't about that. At this point, I still wanted a serious, monogamous relationship, and I assumed I'd eventually get one. But there were other things for me to focus on. So, while most people my age were getting married (that may sound early, but I live in a more traditional area), I went in the exact opposite direction, venturing into the world of FWBs. Granted, I don't think that glorious acronym had even been invented, at that point. I didn't have a name for what I wanted beyond "casual sex".

 

You have to keep in mind, I never got to have a "fun period" or a "wild period" when I was younger. I went from miserable and alone to a brief relationship, and then back to miserable and alone. So, when most people are having lots of fun-oriented sex, establishing adult social skills, and so on--say, from age 15-25--I was doing none of that. In fact...you may not believe this, but back then, I didn't see any point in having sex with someone if you weren't in love with them. Yes, this is something that Young, Earnest Me thought. But it was mainly insecurity and inexperience talking. Once I felt more confident with women (rebound girl greatly helped in this area, I wish I could thank her), I lucked into some FWB situations and thoroughly enjoyed them. I viewed it as a temporary thing, since I still planned on getting back into the relationship world.

 

But...that's when the cycle started. The "timing" issue I mentioned.

 

I had platonic female friends, then. But, when I tried to get them to hook up with me, something started happening. It would turn out that the timing was just slightly off. Oh, they used to do that sort of thing all the time, and they'd even casually provide details (the kind immediately followed up by an insincere "Oops, I guess I shouldn't have told you the part about the hot tub"), but they were different, now. They were changing their lives. This fell into two different categories.

 

Category number one: if they were going to sleep with a guy, there had to be serious emotional stuff involved, and I wasn't looking for a relationship at that point. I understood their thinking, so I moved on. This phenomenon started repeating itself with a lot of women. It wasn't quite the same as being friend-zoned as an individual, it was more like they were friend-zoning anyone outside of a serious relationship candidate. I could live with that.

 

Category number two: they'd been hurt, or they had some sort of pressing issue/concern, and they didn't have time for anything sexual right now, casual or otherwise. Sometimes it was because of a problem, and sometimes it was because they were focusing on their careers or something similar. I was doing the exact same thing, so I obviously couldn't complain about it. Again, I understood their thinking, so I moved on.

 

Being naive, I totally believed the women in both categories.

 

I was stunned when the girls in the first category started falling into bed with random guys they barely knew or had just met. I'd been turned down because we didn't have an emotional connection, but it turns out that such a connection can be developed from the time you meet someone in a bar to the time you go home with them later that night. Women that had acted offended at the mere notion of casual sex were nonetheless having casual sex. Many of these women still thought of me as a friend (sometimes inexplicably, sometimes not), and they came to me and complained about how they'd hooked up with Promising Young Man from a Prominent Local Family, but he wasn't returning their calls, and maybe he had a girlfriend.

 

Likewise, I was stunned when the girls in the second category turned out to have an interest in sex after all. True story: a girl told me she didn't have time for sex, didn't think it was that important anyway, and was going to focus on her career. She was a slightly traditional type, and she acted hugely offended when I brought up the idea of casual sex. Well, it turned out that she'd been banging her personal trainer the whole time, and she was pregnant, and she was quitting her job and marrying him, even though they'd never so much as dated. Now, take that extreme example and multiply it by a dozen, but with slightly less crazy situations. If I had a dime for every time an "I'm not into sex right now" woman either turned out to be hooking up with a random guy, or was quickly seduced by a random guy...well, I could buy a pretty big bag of M&Ms, anyway.

 

There's a saying that women use: "If he says he's not interested in marriage, it actually means that he isn't interested in marrying you." I don't think that's always true--there are a lot of reasons for someone to not be interested in marriage--but I'm afraid I stumbled upon a corollary. "If she says she doesn't believe in casual sex, it actually means that she isn't interested in having casual sex with you."

 

Communication was an issue here, as well--not their words, but their actions. When my female friends tried to give me advice, I noticed that the guys they ended up with...well, the guys hadn't done anything resembling the advice they gave me. In fact, they'd done the exact opposite. "Take time to cultivate a relationship and build an emotional connection"? Yeah, not so much.

 

For me, understanding actions-related communications means this: If a woman wants to sleep with you, you'll know because she's sleeping with you.

 

Sex, as a concept, is sold to us as the prize at the end of a very lengthy, very intricate process. But this never matched up with what I saw in the real world. In my experience, if a woman wants to have sex with you, nothing will stop her. You can be poor, you can be taken/married, you can be in and out of jail, you can be a toxic influence for her...if she's attracted to you, nothing's going to stop her. Likewise, if she isn't attracted to you, nothing's going to convince her. I realize that men and women are quite different, but a woman could pursue me all she wanted, and it wouldn't affect whether or not I wanted to have sex with her. Attraction is attraction; social stuff is social stuff.

 

My most satisfying sexual situations have been the ones where we clicked immediately. The human race is designed to reproduce; hooking up shouldn't be that difficult. In fact, if anything, it's idiot-proof. (And, yes, I realize that a significant percentage of men don't reproduce, historically speaking.) Alternately, my least satisfying sexual situations have been the ones where I had to work extra-hard to "woo her" or "win her over". If something takes a lot of effort, a lot of artificial boosting, there probably isn't a compatible core underneath it. Attraction should be doing the work for you.

 

The women I mentioned earlier? They weren't attracted to me, so they didn't have sex with me. They had sex with guys they were attracted to. Any personal beliefs or social conventions were tossed aside to make way for their sexual needs. And I'm not criticizing; once I realized what my own sexual needs were, the whole "monogamy" thing went right out the window. This is awkwardly-phrased, but my mistake was trying to artificially contrive something that can't be faked. We can't do anything about physical attraction. As crazy as it seems to me, there are actually types of women that are physically attracted to me right away, and those are the women I've learned to gravitate towards. There's no point in trying to supplant or override attraction.

 

This is why I now utilize a low-effort, low-investment strategy when dealing with women. Oh, sure, if I worked really hard, maybe I could get that one girl to sleep with me...but if it takes that much effort to convince her, will either of us really enjoy it? Most of the time, if a girl can control herself around me, it means she isn't all that into me. Whereas if a girl can't control herself around me, it means that she's into me. I spent years being the guy that women didn't make "mistakes" with, while watching them make mistakes--fun, sexytimes mistakes--with men they actually wanted. I wasted a lot of time being bitter, when I should have realized that I needed to stick to women that want me, instead of wasting my life trying to change what they're attracted to.

 

Attraction (as interpreted by someone's actions/response to it) is the divining rod I use when interacting with women. It's how I got out of my pattern; it's an acid test that lets you know if you have a chance or not. I've learned to be passive, go with the flow, and not try to force things. All those romcoms, where the guys go to ridiculous lengths to impress a girl? I realize that not all women are the same, but I think that most women would have "responded" in the first ten minutes of the movie, whether that means reciprocation or sex. I'm done artificially influencing the process through effort and mating customs. Either they want to have sex with me or they don't; nothing I can do about it.

 

Has anyone else experienced something similar to this?

[Godless_Heathen]

No, not really.

 

My first relationship was with a woman who I had to work very, very hard to get into bed. Had to play reverse psych games with her, in fact, which is something I haven't done since. After she was sleeping with me for a while - six months? - she was really into it. Wanted it more than I did, really, which is saying a lot. We got married, and while we divorced after 5 years, our sexual relationship never slackened. Best sexual relationship I ever had, actually, none since then have held a candle to it.

 

So, she wasn't really interested initially, and I changed her mind, and then she was interested. Completely unlike your experience.

 

Would I do it again? Heck, no. Well, maybe if I knew for certain it was going to be that good, since it hasn't been great since, but in my relationships since then, the transition to sex has been rather effortless. Because I'm not a 20 year old virgin with no self confidence anymore.

[annie24]

I was stunned when the girls in the first category started falling into bed with random guys they barely knew or had just met. I'd been turned down because we didn't have an emotional connection, but it turns out that such a connection can be developed from the time you meet someone in a bar to the time you go home with them later that night. Women that had acted offended at the mere notion of casual sex were nonetheless having casual sex. Many of these women still thought of me as a friend (sometimes inexplicably, sometimes not), and they came to me and complained about how they'd hooked up with Promising Young Man from a Prominent Local Family, but he wasn't returning their calls, and maybe he had a girlfriend.

 

ah, been there, done that, got the T-shirt. if these women are at all like me (or me when i'm at my most clueless and optimistic) - i meet a guy and although we haven't known each other long, or even more than an hour, i might feel like such a closeness to him, and the way he talks makes me CONFIDENT that i have met this man in a previous life and we were SOULMATES. and everything about him is PERFECT. we were raised exactly the same. we have the same views on politics and religion and life. my family would love him. he thinks i'm pretty! he tells me about the next 7 dates he is going to take me on!! of course I am going to bed with him, this is so romantic, this is not CASUAL, i can really picture myself with this guy FOREVER!!

 

oh gosh, i can really be an idiot sometimes.... i suspect that this was the thought process of some of your female friends......

[meoww]

I've learned to be attracted to people who treat me well and make an effort. I don't compromise on my level of attraction though. I have to like them back as well. I also finally stopped allowing myself to be pursued by people out of a sense of obligation to be nice, and also stopped being hung up on people who aren't interested in me for whatever reason, attraction, career, interests, way of communicating, values, etc.

 

I think what you are describing sounds generally good to me! Less drama and more opportunities.

[IAmFCA]

Yes yes yes I have. I have been using attraction as a divining rod, and I dare say I have had better sex than I would ever have imagined as a result. The relationship side of things has been a bit of a struggle. Fell hard, and if one were to believe his WORDS so did he, for a complete mess. Oh, but was and still am so attracted to him. He isn't good looking, he isn't the most charming man on the planet, my friends tolerate him at best. I can not explain the attraction. It is strong, so strong, and yes, it yields ridiculous results. Following my attraction indeed put some incredible smiles on my face.

 

Ahh but I have walked away. Never to have sex again it seems.

 

I am now trying to find LTR-worthy men (just one would do) to whom my divining rod naturally points. Oh dear, a better analogy for following attraction must be found.

 

Anyway, I see a lot of first dates in my future.

 

Sticking to my I-want-both chant is a test of commitment, I tell you that.

[tiredofvampires]

That was well-written, and since you rarely make threads (this is the first I've seen), it's interesting to see some of the backstory to your current mindset, OP.

 

There are some things I very strongly disagree with in your post, and some I equally strongly agree with.

 

Where I disagree: I have experienced the growth of attraction in many cases, ranging from "Hmm, he's alright" to "I really can't ever see being sexually attracted to him" turning into mad, passionate, fiery lust. In some instances, this has taken long periods of time with one or both of us in the "friendzone"; in other instances, it's been over the course of a burst of courtship effort on his part where more and more of him, as it emerged, made him more and more appealing (and I was interested enough to remain receptive). Moreover, I'll add that in those cases, once I was sold, there was no going back. Those men remained attractive to me, even after we broke up. Attraction growing and intensifying is a very real, prominent experience for me, and if you were to interview the guys I was with in these cases, they would tell you the investment paid off when it came to the sex. I have found that when I went more gradually into attraction, more trust was built, more rapport, more connection, and for me that's vital to good sex. So building that foundation, building that traction before leaping in gave the sex a potency and sustainability.

 

In cases where the attraction was instant and mutual, with a lot of sparks flying, even though the sex was predictably passionate, it was the groundwork for a lot of flighty relating and lack of cohesion, and the sex itself was not better for the speed of the "click". My least stable relationships started that way. I'm not into crash-and-burn relationships, and that's often how they start, so I've come to mistrust strong instant attraction as a "divining rod". That which heats up fast, cools off fast; and that which heats up slowly, burns slowly, in my experience. Not saying all instant attractions end badly, but I certainly don't think it's a prescription or secret to anything superior. Also, in these cases, interestingly, conversely to the other scenario, I usually felt as though a magic spell had been ripped from my corneas when the relationship crumbled, leaving me thinking, "What ever did I find so attractive about him?"

 

If we are just talking about sex with no strings attached and no clear or existent plan for a future (as infrequently as that's occurred for me), even then, there was no correlation between how good it was and how soon I was attracted. In fact, the examples I can think of (some of the best sex I've had, I'll add) arose out of connections with men I at first didn't feel physically magnetized to, and in one case, I was a bit repelled by -- and strangely enough, even when we were sexually active, I found him physically unappealing in his features but something about his brain, coupled with his empathy and heart, his mischief/freespiritedness, his indescribable sensuality (and appreciation of mine) and our sexual chemistry was intoxicating to me. As sometimes pain and pleasure merge in sex, with him, slight aversion and great attunement merged in a strange and intense alchemy.

 

But I am still an LTR woman, a monogamist, and whether or not I'll ever see another bedroom experience, since immediate attraction has historically led to impetuousness and bad endings, the very opening of my profile on the dating site I'm on (as fallow as it's lain) leads with the message that attraction in my world builds, it doesn't start on the top of the mountain or the deep end of the pool. I can go too quickly, but not too slowly. That's my motto, and if attraction is meant to be, it'll be at whatever pace we set. Since I'm not looking for sex partners, I'm looking for someone to share my life with who will double as a sex partner, my priority/emphasis is not on sex the way yours is, OP, and therefore the focus on early attraction probably works differently for me, even though BEING attracted to my partner once we are on a romantic track is absolutely essential.

 

My divining rod -- if I have any at all, since each case presents differently and unfolds differently (I'm so anti-formula) -- is if we laugh at the same things and notice things in the world in a similar way. That's a recipe, an indicator for good sex, and so many other crosslinkings.

 

Where I agree:

 

I wasted a lot of time being bitter, when I should have realized that I needed to stick to women that want me, instead of wasting my life trying to change what they're attracted to.

 

Amen to that! I see so much misery on this board and in the world of dating/attraction coming out of people trying to force round pegs into square holes. Not being true to themselves. Not owning who they are. Wondering how to fabricate a better them with only superficial devices, and hoping that'll bring fish up into the net -- the wrong fish from the wrong river. Bemoaning what they are not getting and what's wrong with them instead of going after what is right for them. Wishing after beautiful abstractions instead of discovering beautiful realities. I think that your evolution into greater self-acceptance is a breakthrough. And it IS a form of self-acceptance to know that you have certain qualities some people will appreciate where others won't, and to become okay with that. That's why I am against the concept of honing "game", and feel that in the end, it unravels because there is no formula you can contrive that will endure. If you're looking to just hook up, the art of seduction will always be alive and well. But it's far better to "seduce" someone by being exactly who you are, and weeding "in" those who genuinely go for that (and knowing which rivers these fish will more likely be in). That way, there's no act to have to give up; no mask to remove. It's pure and you know where you stand. If you're both standing close to eachother at that point and feeling it, on the same wavelength, you know it'll be good. Certainly, this bodes so much better for the right footing for a relationship, too.

 

Keeping it real has no rival, whatever level of intimacy you're after.

 

And bitterness? Bitterness is arsenic to attraction. It's okay to be sad sometimes -- but don't become bitter. Don't stay bitter.

[quirky]

Annie24, I SO relate to what you wrote , too funny !

 

i meet a guy and although we haven't known each other long, or even more than an hour, i might feel like such a closeness to him, and the way he talks makes me CONFIDENT that i have met this man in a previous life and we were SOULMATES. and everything about him is PERFECT. we were raised exactly the same. we have the same views on politics and religion and life. my family would love him. he thinks i'm pretty! he tells me about the next 7 dates he is going to take me on!! of course I am going to bed with him, this is so romantic, this is not CASUAL, i can really picture myself with this guy FOREVER!!

 

 

 

I have found that when I went more gradually into attraction, more trust was built, more rapport, more connection, and for me that's vital to good sex.

 

I agree with that.

 

I was on a date recently with a guy where the chemistry was pretty wild but it was our first date and it was obvious to me it would be a ONS, I didn't feel emotionally secure with him but felt very physically drawn to him. I definitely couldn't go ahead with it because of that and because of lack of familiarity. I remember a moment we kissed and then I looked at him and thought 'baaah, who is he?' A stranger really..

 

Another FWB situation I had that almost destroyed my self esteem..it took me a few attempts to relax with him, again seeking that familiarity before my body can relax with him. And as there was less and less chance of emotional connection and trust my body was closing up though I was still madly attracted to him.

 

I think attraction CAN grow for woman but not to get them to serve a FWB, it can happen more if a relationship is on the table.

 

Attraction should be doing the work for you.

 

I do agree with that.

 

I can't help but feel depressed by the lack of romance in your post.

[darkheart85]

Awesome post!

[Blue Spiral]

Thanks for the replies, everyone. Now then...

 

 

 

I had a feeling that someone would bring this up, but I forgot to mention it. The truth is, I've had some women whose attraction for me allegedly grew...but I later discovered that they were actually de-prioritizing attraction and sex in general. They'd moved from their "wild period" to their "serious period", and sex was no longer something to be enjoyed, it had become a way to secure a serious relationship and babies. Attraction/sex wasn't as important to them, anymore--and in some cases, it wasn't important at all. I'm going to sound like a superficial SOB here, but they spent their hottest years with guys they were attracted to, and then they decided to "grow up" and went looking for a provider-type to settle down with, and settle for. I've known some of the guys that these women have married. It's almost always the same story: once the woman gets the ring, or the house, or the baby, the sex vanishes, and the guy realizes that having a relationship built on something other than sexual attraction isn't all it's cracked up to be.

 

They tend to get divorced, and, strangely enough, the man usually initiates it; the women are happy with the situation. By the time the women get (back) to me, they're thirty pounds overweight, they have a kid, they have a variety of problems, etc., and the implicit message is that I didn't have a shot with them back then, but I have one now--because their priorities/situation have changed, and, well, gotten worse. Hooray for me. Maybe I'm crazy, but I just don't find that appealing. They act interested in sex, again, but they aren't fooling anyone. And even though I know them a lot better, I don't find them more attractive, coincidentally. Maybe that goes back to me being a superficial SOB--all of my relationships were with women around the ages of 19-20.

 

 

 

Since I'm not looking for stable relationships, that isn't an issue for me. Frankly, I'm not looking for stability at all--I've been "stable" with several women, in terms of being a reliable, safe, supportive person, and it was a soul-crushing experience for me, because my needs weren't being met at all. (Granted, my needs are on the extreme side, sexually speaking.) As I said, I spent way too much of my life being the guy that women didn't make mistakes with.

 

One last thing: I can't tell you how many times I've watched sexual attraction influence how someone behaves towards me. I've known women that would get mad at me for something, but if a guy that they wanted did the same thing, or did something a hundred times worse, they were more than okay with it. And, being honest, I'm the same way with women I'm attracted to. Trying to get anywhere with a woman who isn't immediately sexually attracted to me...well, it's pointless, to me. You're fighting an uphill battle. Even if we're talking about a "growing attraction" that takes place over the short-term, instead of the long-term, I can't make it work, as I don't have the social skills/emotional whatever to figure out how to develop this...whatever it is.

[Blue Spiral]

I can't help but feel depressed by the lack of romance in your post.

 

I used to be a diehard romantic, I kid you not. But that was before I knew what relationships actually entailed. It was all hypothetical, as I was a late bloomer. Look at it from the perspective of an average guy: you spend your formative years getting rejected by girls, you build up this ideal in your head, your sex drive is insane, you try and try and try, you finally get a relationship...and you realize that it's just the beginning of the work, and not the end. It can be pretty disheartening. Once you find out that many women don't actually want you, but that they want someone that fits neatly into their dream life, the notion of "romance" gets stepped on like a bug.

 

I'm a straightforward guy. I don't have any ulterior motives. But when I'm interacting with women that are allegedly attracted to me, I don't know if it's legitimately sexual, if they just want/need attention, or if they're using it to hook me for their Serious (Boring) Phase.

[quirky]

If it works for you that's cool. But there's no way you couldn't find love if you really wanted to. Everyone I like is a bit weird and I know other girls that appreciate weird or slightly insecure. But a guy that just sleeps around? Not many dig that. There is always some work involved in everything, our job, fitness, friends..but the perks hopefully make us somewhat happy. I don't judge you, I undarstand what being fatalistic entails because I also feel often what's the friggin point. But occasionally you meet someone who feels the same and you are not so alone anymore.

[Thorshammer]

I think the only thing that seperates men from women- one leaning more emotional than the other- but i believe thats from societies pressure- and two what traits they find attractive (obviously)- and even then this isnt set in stone.

 

Everything else is the same. I had a girl wait for me to get drunk and set up everything so i would be alone with her in a bedroom (thats rape i think). I had women telling me they wanted me and missed me and want a relationship, just so she can sleep with me. Women can be just like men, thats alll bs. Society is different now, woman can express themselves freely now (and not hide it, for all we know this was common back then, but hidden and held in secret), and what some people see as them being LOOSE, or acting like men, some will see as them acting HUMAN.

 

And their reasons are BS. If someone wants you, they will keep you, even if they are miserable- they will still want you. The attraction will be there, and recieving attention back from what they find valuable will boost their happiness and self- esteem, they will want to keep that. It might not last, but they will keep you until then. I have been in enough relationships with crazy women that backed me off from thinking i would be their bf to know this.

[Blue Spiral]

If it works for you that's cool. But there's no way you couldn't find love if you really wanted to.

 

Oh, boy.

 

Let's imagine that, somewhere in this series of tubes we call the Internet, there's a wiki devoted exclusively to me. My inner egomaniac would love that. In response to your statement, we go to the article entitled "Challenges Keeping Blue Spiral Out of a Relationship". It would look a little something like this:

 

1. I don't ever want to get married.

 

2. I don't ever want kids.

 

3. Not only am I uninterested in monogamy, but I don't think I'm even capable of it. My attempts at being monogamous have...not lasted long or gone well, to say the least. Picture a lolcat that fell headfirst into an empty cereal box, saying "how doez i relationship?"

 

4. A woman would never be the #1 priority in my life. I have another priority--a passion, in fact--and it takes up most of my time and effort.

 

5. I'm not talkative at all. Honestly, if not for the demands that capitalism places on me (i.e. "work"), I could be silent for days at a time. During a conversation, I tend to have thoughts like "Why aren't we having sex?", "Why is this person still talking?", and "I wish I could go home."

 

6. I'm not social at all. I don't want to go anywhere, do anything, etc. I don't have much to do with my family, and I don't really have any true friends, nor do I want them.

 

7. In the fall and winter, my weekends are devoured by football. College on Saturday, pro on Sunday; it's the closest thing I have to a religion. So, from ten in the morning until ten at night (or later) on Saturday, and from eleven in the morning until about nine-thirty at night on Sunday, I'm going to be busy.

 

8. The obligatory porn/video games issue. Compared to most, I'm a minimalist, in this area. Less than an hour of video games per day, and I sometimes forget to look at porn daily. Don't take my Man Card away! But it's not really "porn" at all, for the most part. Briefly checking in with my favorite camgirls, looking at new topless beach pictures of some random celebrity, amateur pics on Chive, etc.

 

9. This will sound ridiculous, but, I can be an incredibly flaky, hot-and-cold person. I've literally forgotten that some of my FWBs exist. I'll be after you for sex one day, and completely ignoring you for a week after that, because I'm dealing with something else. I'm very much off in my own little world, and most people don't leave much of an impression on me. I forget major pieces of information about people, up to and including marriage, pregnancy, job stuff, and the fact that they hate me.

 

So, if you know of a woman who's okay with all that, please, let me know.

[annie24]

lol, you are funny! lolcat in the cereal box!!

 

by the way... true story about an "i don't have casual sex" girl. A gf called me up tonight to tell me about her 2nd date with this guy she met online a few days ago. the first date was magical and for the second date, they went away for the weekend. she's very religious and has had sex before, but in a serious relationship. but she's not the 'casual sex' type of girl. anyway, she and this guy had a magical second date which lasted for a whole weekend! and yup, they did the deed. she tells me that she feels a real connection to him, she just had a good feeling about this guy the minute she saw the profile. it all sounds great. i'm very happy for her, and i hope that indeed, this is the real deal for her. so, she had sex on the '2nd date' but does feel like this guy is very special.

[happpybear]

i think it would be awesome if one day, you randomly meet this woman that knocks your socks off. and all this ^^^ goes away

[tiredofvampires]

It's clear you have a very categorical way of thinking about marriage. While the institution of marriage may be traditional, many marriages are non-traditional in the understandings the partners have. There are marriages that involve swinging, so marriage in and of itself is not necessarily a monogamous arrangement. There are marriages where the husband stays home and raises the kids, while the wife is the breadwinner (someone in my family has this arrangement, and it worked out well, and they are still happily married with college-age kids no longer living at home.) There are marriages where there are NO kids, and the wife is bringing home the "bacon" (I know a woman doctor like this, where her husband is a freelance artist, so she makes the lion's share of the household income.) They didn't want children. There are marriages that are even long-distance (someone I know is married to a man who technically lives accross the world in Africa because he can't give up his work there; she is raising their baby here and he comes and goes.) There are asexual marriages (knew of one like that, too, and it wasn't because the wife stopped putting out because she was no longer interested in sex and wasn't attracted to him anymore, but because they found a spiritual path they both adhered to which they felt replaced a need for sex.) There are people who braved through a partner becoming disabled, and still say this person is the love of their life and nothing's changed. I've known many like that, over the course of a lifetime.

 

There ARE marriages that start with a mutual, "I knew from the moment I laid eyes on her/him they would be the one" and decades and grandkids later, they are growing old together. It's not a cliche -- people do exist like this, couples exist like this. It sounds like like a hokey fairytale, but we all know or have seen couples like this. I'd be surprised if you're an exception. Despite the divorce rate, many marriages do stay intact, and while many of them are not good, and many of them are not ideal, a lot of couples do stick it out because on whole they would rather be with this person than be without them (and genuine love is there, not just habit). I know of marriages that nearly died, and then after devoting themselves to repairing it, it went through a transformative Renaisssance.

 

You can argue the odds, but you can't argue these things exist, they are out there. (though in your neck of the woods, where people marry very young and very traditionally, you're probably just not as exposed to these alternate endings.)

 

So marriage itself is basically anything you want it to be. Outside of basic legalities, you and your partner get to write all the rules.

 

And also, contrary to your categorical framing of the demise of marriage being due to the wife doing an about-face one the nuptials have come and gone and she's gotten out of it what she needs like the opportunist that she is, in most cases marriages fail due to a breakdown of both parties' commitment. Stats tell us that husbands still cheat more often than wives (at least with physical affairs). Husbands lose interest in their wives, physically or emotionally. Women feeling overwhelmed by childrearing while men start slacking, taking things for granted and not doing their share around the house is such a common theme, you'd have to be living under a rock not to know its toll. And if men complain that women no longer seek sex in the marriage, women equally complain that once the nuptials were over and the courtship behind them, their husbands stopped all the romantic gestures. So are you going to defend women, as you have men, who claim that their spouse put on a good show during courtship and then dropped the ball once married?

 

Men who desire marriage are not victims. They want something out of life with marriage, and a traditional life, too. It is their responsibility to choose wisely whom they take this vow with. As it is for women.

 

It sounds like you're saying that after you wised up to the "truth" about marriage, you decided to live this alternative lifestyle. It's fair for you to choose what makes you most happy, and if the idea of the traditional relationship/marriage is not for you, then good that you've found something that suits your needs and personality better. But it is a mistake, and not so honest to yourself, to claim that you've rejected such a lifestyle because you are rejecting what marriage "is". You are rejecting what YOUR impression of a CERTAIN TYPE of marriage is, mostly because you are saying you are self-absorbed, rather neglectful, easily bored by people, and would make a lousy husband. That's an excellent reason to never get married, so you're making the right choice, I believe. But don't blame it on the institution of marriage itself, or monogamy, which many people not only can but do make work. You are essentially saying, "I reject marriage because of how women behave once married and the drudgery involved in being married. I've chosen not to make the mistake everyone else is making." But it would be more honest for you to say, "I'm rejecting marriage because I'm not suited to it. Others are, I'm not." If you once wanted monogamy and were a "diehard romantic," rather than framing your current position as the more enlightened and liberated approach, you might want to investigate the somewhat disturbing notion that you've taken this stand because your disillusionment after past heartbreaks has bred a cynicism needing social/philosophical justification.

[Blue Spiral]

Unfortunately, some religious girls tend to read too much into the meaning of sex. For her sake, I hope it's genuine, and I hope it lasts...but, in my experience, extremely religious girls go from zero to sixty way too fast, emotionally speaking. I've mentioned this before, but I once had a religious girl propose to me so we could get married and have sex. Even ones that are experienced can develop an "emotional bond" a little too quickly.

[Blue Spiral]

i think it would be awesome if one day, you randomly meet this woman that knocks your socks off. and all this ^^^ goes away

 

It's not ^^^, though (and let me tell you, I had to search my keyboard to find the ^). It's who I genuinely am. Some people (myself included) have thought all that might be a phase, but I never grew out of it. Love can do a lot of things, but I don't think it can change who you are inside. This idea of "When he falls in love, he'll magically become mature, and able to be monogamous, and he'll treat me better!" is a bad way for women to view men, IMHO. Love isn't a substitute for compatibility.

[ycmanvs]

This is a great thread. I have often felt this way, especially in my 20's and 30's and I do believe it is mostly pheromones. You either have chemistry with someone or you don't. The rest is just fine tuning.

[Blue Spiral]

In my view, both of those things are true, though. I'm rejecting it because I think that marriage is a bad idea in general, and because I'm not suited for it.

 

You're correct that there are many types of marriage. But, let's be honest, the traditional, monogamous marriages greatly outnumber the swinger ones, as well as the other unconventional types. If the pie were more evenly split up, yes, it'd be ridiculous for me to be reacting to just one type. But that's not the case. There's still something of a norm in terms of mating, and it frequently affects my life, so it's going to be the type I react to.

 

This next thing is going to sound like a complaint, but it really isn't. Basically, you're saying that it's okay for me not to get married because I suck, but not because marriage itself sucks. "Okay, you don't have to get married, but don't you say anything bad about it!" Well, that's a step up from past views of the issue, so we're making progress. Willfully-single people used to be viewed as pretty crazy/subversive, and I'll definitely take "you'd make a lousy husband" over that. When a high percentage of something is failing, I don't think it's crazy to say, "Um, maybe we should think twice about that whole idea." If marriage were a car or a prescription drug, it would've been recalled long ago.

 

Also, you're correct that many (I personally think most) men cheat, which brings about divorce. But I also think that most of that cheating happens because women lose interest in sex. Two wrongs don't make a right, etc., but cheating doesn't usually happen in a vacuum. Is it because they aren't doing whatever to make the women feel secure and loved? I have no idea, but I do know that some women are very high-maintenance in that area. The idea that you have to spend your whole life "wooing" someone is pretty ridiculous, to me. I'm obviously clueless when it comes to monogamy, but I personally think that there's a difference between constantly working at a relationship and being some sort of wooing-slave for the rest of your life. No re-wooing should be necessary, dammit!

 

Finally, as for the idea that marriage can be anything, due to writing it up beforehand--unfortunately, I've read about and heard about many instances where the judge throws the prenup out. Call me overly cautious, but I don't see any point in taking that sort of risk. I'm not religious, I don't have any desire to express my emotional stuff in front of a crowd, and I'm sort of a control freak when it comes to my money and property. I don't want the government or religion involved in my personal affairs; that's just setting a bad precedent.

[ycmanvs]

I see marriage as more of a contract between two people, where you get some rights that you would not have if you were just living together or dating, so if you are not in any need to enter such a contract, then you have no reason to get married, like ever...

 

People can cheat on each other if they are married or not...so that is not even relevant...

[tiredofvampires]

People can cheat on each other if they are married or not...so that is not even relevant...

 

Cheating as a reason for a marriage to go down the tubes is no less relevant than the reasons the OP stated, which could happen in any other committed LTR as well. Anything that comes between two people could come between them and ruin the relationship, marriage or not. The honeymoon phase ending isn't just for literal post-honeymooners.

[Blue Spiral]

I feel like sexual attraction is much more powerful and reliable than a piece of paper or any other sort of promise. Unless that changes, I'll continue to base my strategy around it.

[Sportster2005]

I think you are approaching it too passively. You can't force attraction, but you can certainly influence it. I think if you are looking for the sure thing you are being lazy. Sorry I don't mean to offend, but that's how this casual observer sees your approach.

[Blue Spiral]

I think you are approaching it too passively. You can't force attraction, but you can certainly influence it. I think if you are looking for the sure thing you are being lazy. Sorry I don't mean to offend, but that's how this casual observer sees your approach.

 

Oh, I'm definitely being lazy, as I ultimately don't care about it that much. I've been meaning to write that post for ages, but I couldn't be bothered enough to get around to it. Some people here seem to think I'm some sort of raging anti-women crusader, but the truth is, the little bit I read/post on ENA is the only time I think about women in a non-sexual way, angrily or otherwise. For a half-hour a day, I come on here and think, "Why am I not getting laid nonstop? That's weird, I need to figure that out." And then I go back to the part of my life that's actually important, and I stay there until the next day.

 

I may be sex-obsessed, but I don't care enough about getting it to even try dating, which surely says something. I'm trying to refine a low-risk, low-effort, low-investment strategy. When I was younger, people tried to get me to go to the bar/club scene, and I measured it in terms of return-on-investment and time. "Okay, I have to spend X amount of hours here, and maybe I'll get a phone number at best, there's no guaranteed sex. That's just not worth it." In that sense, I'm definitely looking for a sure thing. Say what you will about the FWB concept, but it helps separate the women that are DTF from the ones that aren't, and it thus prevents me from wasting my time and effort.

 

And, yes, I'm an extremely passive person. It's just my nature. Many women have told me that I want sex way too much, but could the problem be that I...don't want it enough?