ping pong show.....on our honeymoon

[Lonewing]

These things you may consider "maturation," these values are no longer so widely held...

 

In the old days, as men grew older, they were supposed to become more abhorant towards sex, nudity, prostitution, and thus.

 

But then things changed for women in a big way that expanded women's universe beyond comprehension. California 1969, No Fault Divorce Legalized.

 

You expect everything would stay the same way for men?

 

No, instead, over the last 40 years we've witnessed a cultural war unfold between the sexes, one that has seen the complete utter erosion of values to the point now where the average age of lot virginity is now 15. Men no longer respect women, women no longer respect men, and neither sex respects the moral constructs that demonize sex or sex based acts [ping pong, for instance].

 

In short, this "Common Moral Code" no longer exists. At least, it's not as written out as it used to be. Whereas before it says no respectable woman sells herself, it now says any respectable woman has the right to chose precisely what she can and cannot do with her own damn body. You may think it's debasing of Women, but you don't speak for all other women. Some have no issue with it, and some have no issue making money off it. And a whole lotta men who have been raised without positive role models, or raised withouth respect of institutions such as virginity and morality, well, they're now loose. It's kind of changed things, no?

 

And part of this reimagination of values includes a culture that idolizes the antics of Hangover 1 and Hangover 2. Like I said though, these activities are those one sees Before a wedding, as a bachelor, not after the wedding with the wife. And if one is married, he takes his buds, not his wife, to see these things.

 

Your man wants to go experience these things - at the very least see them - and, well...that's what it's going to be for him. Telling him no is like telling a woman she's never allowed to go to Maui or Paris...as hard as that may be to put on the same level. You're not going to like them, so this may be a good time to stop and figure out just what is going on with him.

 

And just for future reference...the past reference has ping pong. The latest Adam Sandler movie seems to sport "baseball." The future does not bode well for the moralists.

[Hanz33]

These things you may consider "maturation," these values are no longer so widely held...

 

Your man wants to go experience these things - at the very least see them - and, well...that's what it's going to be for him. Telling him no is like telling a woman she's never allowed to go to Maui or Paris...as hard as that may be to put on the same level. You're not going to like them, so this may be a good time to stop and figure out just what is going on with him.

 

And just for future reference...the past reference has ping pong. The latest Adam Sandler movie seems to sport "baseball." The future does not bode well for the moralists.

 

Why would men go see it if it casues drama between the couples? If I wanted to go to Paris and he was concerned what I might do - I wouldn't go, simple as that. I would prefer to see it with him rather than his 'mates' who think prostitution isn't classed as cheating. this sucks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm so over it.

[Lightning87]

Why is he wanting to go and see stuff like that on his honeymoon? Sure if you weren't or if he was away with the lads out of curiosity but seriously, your honeymoon?

 

I wouldn't read too much into the "ohh anything I want" comment because it sounds a bit like a joke. He wouldn't be marrying you if he was interested in prostitutes although I understand why it upset you. It would upset me too.

 

I would tell him that you really don't want to spend your honeymoon there but you guys could maybe go back another time to see it?

[Seraphim]

Why would men go see it if it casues drama between the couples? If I wanted to go to Paris and he was concerned what I might do - I wouldn't go, simple as that. I would prefer to see it with him rather than his 'mates' who think prostitution isn't classed as cheating. this sucks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm so over it.

As TOV said. Selfishness is a very serious character flaw and not one that goes away. Lack of empathy is actually worse than a character flaw and falls into mentally ill categories.

[Lightning87]

Reading back, I can't believe he doesn't take into consideration the fact you were abused and you can feel uncomfortable at times about sexual things. He isn't thinking about you at all, only his own needs.

 

I know you want to get married but I'm afraid, by what I've read, this guy isn't marriage material and I think he isn't mature enough yet to be in a committed relationship.

[Donovan79]

Not that it makes a huge difference in terms of the guy sounding like an uncaring bastard, but just a head's up that from what my mates have told me, while vaginas are involved in this show, they don't feel it's at all "sexual" in the way prostitution or even lap dances are. It apparently comes off as a more-nude circus act. But carry on.

[kaibutsu]

I hope you are taking into account how many people find issues with this whole scenario and his reactions. I know you obviously care about this man, but his reactions to your concerns about everything you've mentioned is a huge concern. It would he one thing if there were differing opinions throughout the thread, but it seems pretty unilateral opinion-wise that you're going to have major issued in the future with him. I tend to agree. I hope we are all wrong, but usually outsiders see things someone on the inside can't see, and you have so many red flags with this guy that I would be seriously considering and questioning everything in your relationship right now, especially marriage. Good luck whatever you decide to do.

[greywolf]

Not that it makes a huge difference in terms of the guy sounding like an uncaring bastard, but just a head's up that from what my mates have told me, while vaginas are involved in this show, they don't feel it's at all "sexual" in the way prostitution or even lap dances are. It apparently comes off as a more-nude circus act. But carry on.

 

A nude circus act performed by sex slaves.

[penelope13]

You are equally unprepared for marriage - albeit for very different reasons:

- you are not able to express what your true feelings are in fear of upsetting your partner

- you don't know how to recognize what an acceptable (or not) behavior is from your partner

- you don't know how to demand the respect that you deserve, because you don't even believe that you deserve it

- you are willing to enter into a marriage that is promising to be toxic at best for fear of telling/disappointing your family

- your family itself has a warped sense of what is a respectful/ healthy relationship since you were exposed to decades of abuse by your father thus (excuse the expression) they make lousy advice givers

 

Look at your mom and remember how you felt growing up under those conditions. If you go through with the wedding you will continue the cycle. You said in another post that you would love to help your mom, but that you can't. The best thing for you to do for her is to show her that it's possible to break the cycle and that you can stand up for your rights for a healthy relationship.

[lalalollipops]

Why is he wanting to go and see stuff like that on his honeymoon? Sure if you weren't or if he was away with the lads out of curiosity but seriously, your honeymoon?

 

I wouldn't read too much into the "ohh anything I want" comment because it sounds a bit like a joke. He wouldn't be marrying you if he was interested in prostitutes although I understand why it upset you. It would upset me too.

 

I would tell him that you really don't want to spend your honeymoon there but you guys could maybe go back another time to see it?

 

Not really. The act of marrying sb DOES NOT at all indicate sb's commitment level believe me. Cos there are so many married men who do things behind their wives back. =(

[Miss Firecracker]

Not really. The act of marrying sb DOES NOT at all indicate sb's commitment level believe me. Cos there are so many married men who do things behind their wives back. =(

 

For sure. Some men only marry to have a maid and good sex on demand.

[Donovan79]

A nude circus act performed by sex slaves.

 

Not trying to forgive him. Just saying he's a horrible hombre for reasons other than wanting to cheat with prostitutes.

[Lonewing]

A nude circus act performed by sex slaves.

 

I will always remember an interview of a sideshow "freak" on HBO, and as he said something to the effect of, "You may think I'm being exploited, but then you should see my paycheck."

 

Just because they're doing such acts and getting paid for it does not mean they're sex slaves. Even if they are slaves, everybody is a financial slave, at the end of the day. Even you and me. We all have our choices to make in life.

[Lonewing]

Not trying to forgive him. Just saying he's a horrible hombre for reasons other than wanting to cheat with prostitutes.

 

He's Morally incompatiable, that's the main issue here. A horrible Hombre is a matter of perspective, you'd have to look at his social network to deem how horrible he is.

[Seraphim]

I will always remember an interview of a sideshow "freak" on HBO, and as he said something to the effect of, "You may think I'm being exploited, but then you should see my paycheck."

 

Just because they're doing such acts and getting paid for it does not mean they're sex slaves. Even if they are slaves, everybody is a financial slave, at the end of the day. Even you and me. We all have our choices to make in life.

 

The thing is I do not know any four year old little girl who says to her mother, " mommy my dream in life is to be a prostitute doing ping pong shows" That is NO girl's dream, not even the one's who end up there. Sexual slavery is different than having to go to your collar and tie job.

[Lonewing]

Why would men go see it if it casues drama between the couples? If I wanted to go to Paris and he was concerned what I might do - I wouldn't go, simple as that. I would prefer to see it with him rather than his 'mates' who think prostitution isn't classed as cheating. this sucks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm so over it.

 

It only causes drama becasue you are of a different moral ethic. In his ethic, there's nothing wrong with being married and partaking in this kind of entertainment. For you, there's a huge problem. At the base level, I believe every woman wants her vagina to be the ONLY vagina her man ever sees, and even then she'd prefer he never see it. This insecurity seems to be the root chord, whether people acknowledge it or not.

[Lonewing]

The thing is I do not know any four year old little girl who says to her mother, " mommy my dream in life is to be a prostitute doing ping pong shows" That is NO girl's dream, not even the one's who end up there. Sexual slavery is different than having to go to your collar and tie job.

 

I also know VERY FEW girls who at the age of 4 know or understand what Sex is. I do know girls who turn post maturity and discover they Really LOVE sex. And I know a number who discover the money is ridiculously good, to the point where one night on a stage stripping may be better than what you or I pull in in a week or even a month.

 

I don't know any girls who say to their mommy "I want to be a Fast Food Worker when I grow up!," or "I want to wash floors for a living!" or "I want to clean houses for a living!" either...

 

But then we hit that turning point in our lives where we discover that in order to get what we want, sometimes we have to do things we don't like. Time is time, regardless of how much value you put on it, but if you pay me a thousand for ten minutes when it normally takes me two weeks to make a thousand, you just gave me 10070 minutes for free, because now I won't have to work for the next whole week. It's all a matter of morality and economics, and once somebody understands their body is just a body, well, it's their life to live.

[Donovan79]

I knew I shouldn't have posted that. The debate here is not over whether using your body to earn money is objectively wrong in any society. We could argue that for days.

 

The issue at hand is that this woman's husband to be is an insensitive jerk, and she's *too* sensitive to walk away when she should. Focus your energy on helping her do this instead.

[Miss Firecracker]

Here is food for thought.

 

link removed

 

I've never heard of that being done. I don't think your boyfriend would go that route, considering the situation though. You would have a very good reason to call this one off.

[Seraphim]

The point is many of these women are FORCED to do this. Many of them are children and not women and they were SOLD to do this. They are not free and nor are they making this choice of their own volition, it is not the same as slinging fries. You can not compare forced sexual slavery to doing normal work people have to do for a living.

[lalalollipops]

Yeah these women aren't early good money at all, if some of you can even imply that =/

I read they earn like 150 US a month working 24/7, and have harsh penalties for being late even like a minute.

[PhilliesFan001]

I will always remember an interview of a sideshow "freak" on HBO, and as he said something to the effect of, "You may think I'm being exploited, but then you should see my paycheck."

 

Just because they're doing such acts and getting paid for it does not mean they're sex slaves. Even if they are slaves, everybody is a financial slave, at the end of the day. Even you and me. We all have our choices to make in life.

 

You really can't compare somebody sold into sex slavery in a developing country with someone who is a "slave" to the 9-5 boring office job in the Western world. It just shows a lack of understanding about the topic.

[abitbroken]

Okay - I want to get back to the OP so this thread doesn't veer off track and is closed.

 

Anyway -- OP -- if you postpone the wedding, you can decide to ultimately never marry him, or marry him later. If you go ahead and marry him now, you can't unmarry him. There is divorce, but why go through it? it is not about learning to take his behavior and thoughts, but geting and growing into a stronger person yourself. Work through your own issues - not to keep him - but for you. You said you won't talk about your past with people or therapists because you don't want to 'dwell." it is not dwelling - it is working on healing. You are sweeping your own pain and the things that are wrong in the relationship under the rug. Believe me, once you thoroughly gain some healing for yourself, your life will shift dramatically. You will have maybe lost a relationship or other things that are unhealthy for you, but you will find a lot of better things.

 

You are looking for little reasons to give him credit - for not interrupting you once, or "graduating" to not yelling at you about your dreams but even a stranger would do this. He is not changing - he is learning what behavior generates a better response from you or makes you not want to leave. You will be his mental punching bag or worse yet will feel like you are dying inside as the marriage goes on.

 

There was another poster here whose fiance cheated and she didn't want to hurt anyone so went ahead with the wedding despite it, and she has a very miserable young marriage - not only in counseling but a marriage without trust. I know you said he didn't cheat on you - but the abuse in this relationship is something just as big if not bigger of a red flag.

[FathomFear]

I admittedly did not read 100% of this thread, but of the posts I did read I get the strong impression that both the OP and her fiance suffer from various forms of immaturity. The guy sounds like a bit of a dolt (wanting to engage in sleazy/risque tourism on a honeymoon) and the OP just sounds almost sheltered and doesn't have the kind of confidence and belief I'd expect from an adult who's ready to marry. For example, the intense desire of wanting to please parents is something that is usually indicative of teens or maybe people in their early 20s.

 

I don't know. I know I'm not being very helpful, but I suspect this is one of those cases where it would be smarter to forgo marriage until the OP has more life experience under her belt.

[FathomFear]

Here is food for thought.

 

link removed

 

I've never heard of that being done. I don't think your boyfriend would go that route, considering the situation though. You would have a very good reason to call this one off.

 

Oddly, the thing that blows my mind about that article the most is the fact that her engagement ring cost $30,000. Just imagine how many meals that would cover at a homeless shelter.