ping pong show.....on our honeymoon

[Wayfara]

Not wanting to disapoint anyone or make your parents to have spent money needlessly is understandable but sometimes it comes to a point when you have to ask yourself who the most important person is in your life. It should be you. A marriage is something that will have a major impact on your life, much more than a missed wedding party will impact on your guests' life. If this had been your sister marrying and you paying for the wedding and she came to you with these doubts, what would you tell her? Would it be "I don't care if you have doubts, I will not have spent all this money on the wedding for nothing so suck it up!"? Isn't marrying for the right reasons more important than the party itself?

 

Have you told your parents the whole story? If you haven't then they are probably just passing it up as wedding jitters, no responsible and caring parents would want the daughter marrying someone she has serious doubts about even if it is to unselfishly save the wedding party. Your life is worth more than a wedding party.

 

If you are feeling really guilty about it why not just tell your parents you will pay them back in the future? And for the guests who can't get refunds you can still spend time with them, I assume they are friends?

[Hanz33]

thank you for all your comments. After reading everything I txted my partner (unfortunately thats the only way I can talk atm as he is out working). I told him I was having cold feet about the wedding. I said I didn't feel loved and respected and it was a serious concern for me. I told him I was afraid of talking ot him about it becasue of what his reaction may be (e.g anger) and that he may confirm things for me. I told him I was very frightened to marry him right now. He said he would call tomorrow night and asked what he was doing wrong so that he could work on it. I also told him it was extremely important to me that we have this conversation and without anger before the wedding.

 

Problem is now, I don't know exactly what to say to him. Now that I am thinking about it, I think..."but you should known what you have done". He will want specifics and I get nervous and stutter and mix my words up. Maybe I should type it down what I am going to say? Chances are this will end in a fight and if it does, well I have no choice but to end the wedding because it will be the final confirmation that we will not work this out and he doesn't care to work this out.

 

I just know in my heart he will turn this around on me. That he doesn't feel loved or that I do this this and this wrong. He txted me back saying he felt like that if he was happy he was doing something wrong. (I just feel like this is so irrational, if I loved him why in the world would I be angry at him for being happy? And I am not that kind of person to begin with even 2 a stranger that rubs me the wrong way). He also said that if he was doing something that he liked then I would get angry at him.

 

Nevertheless, I guess I'll know tomorrow night what my partner is thinking. I just pray he will listen to me, otherwise its over.

[Miss Firecracker]

Why can you not call him?

[Hanz33]

Why can you not call him?

 

He hardly gets any service out where he is working, and this isn't a lie - I know where he works and its near impossible to get service there. He can only get service in a certain spot which is sometimes 9 hours away and I know its 3 hours away atm. He gets my msgs every now and then when he gets one bar but talking on the phone is impossible.

[greywolf]

I know what you mean. I have a hard time expressing myself. I tend to forget a lot of important things that I meant to bring up, and I'm so quick to accept explanations for bad behavior because I hate arguing. If it helps, definitely write down all the things you need to say.

[Wayfara]

Problem is now, I don't know exactly what to say to him. Now that I am thinking about it, I think..."but you should known what you have done". He will want specifics and I get nervous and stutter and mix my words up. Maybe I should type it down what I am going to say? Chances are this will end in a fight and if it does, well I have no choice but to end the wedding because it will be the final confirmation that we will not work this out and he doesn't care to work this out.

 

Tell him your piece and hope he will listen, that is the only thing you can do. He will probably turn this around on you but you should stand your ground. The important thing to remembers is this isn't about winning an argument, this is about informing him that things has to change. Even if he squashes your arguments or think they are stupid it doesn't change the problem so don't give in because he is the better talker. It is his choice to listen or not so if he doesn't want to hear your side don't try to make him, just cut your losses.

 

He txted me back saying he felt like that if he was happy he was doing something wrong. (I just feel like this is so irrational, if I loved him why in the world would I be angry at him for being happy? And I am not that kind of person to begin with even 2 a stranger that rubs me the wrong way). He also said that if he was doing something that he liked then I would get angry at him.

 

He is guilt tripping you, don't fall for it.

[poetryandlyrics]

I just know in my heart he will turn this around on me. That he doesn't feel loved or that I do this this and this wrong. He txted me back saying he felt like that if he was happy he was doing something wrong. (I just feel like this is so irrational, if I loved him why in the world would I be angry at him for being happy? And I am not that kind of person to begin with even 2 a stranger that rubs me the wrong way). He also said that if he was doing something that he liked then I would get angry at him.

 

Nevertheless, I guess I'll know tomorrow night what my partner is thinking. I just pray he will listen to me, otherwise its over.

 

Then type it down. Write it down. Read off it. Practice your speech with note cards. Whatever makes you comfortable. I have to write down my thoughts sometimes, to practice what I have to say. Also, my therapist told me before to visualize... His every possible reaction to you, and you form a proper response back in a calm tone.

[Donovan79]

He can only turn around if you try to argue it. Just keep repeating the things that are important to you. Do not let him make you say anything else. "Asking me to go do this on our honeymoon is unacceptable. If you think otherwise, you're wrong." Over and over. That is all.

[lalalollipops]

Yes, the only way to get through to people like this is to repeat one strong statement over and over again. Like a message on playback. Even if he yells or cries or whatever ridiculous, you repeat it in a calm voice.

[Donovan79]

I even find the fact that he wants to talk tomorrow a bad sign. Whenever I have a girlfriend say "Look, there's something I need to tell you", I want to know what it is immediately so we can fix whatever's wrong. Waiting until tomorrow night shows that he knows it can't be that big a deal to him.

[lavenderdove]

>>if he was doing something that he liked then I would get angry at him.

 

Honey, this is what you need to talk about... that apparently the things that make him happy are things that you find shocking and upsetting, and rather than acknowleding that and respecting your feelings, he continues to push and yell and cry when he doesn't get his way. And tell him that frankly it is just not normal to want to go see prostitutes do weird sexual things on a honeymoon and that makes you wonder whether he can or will be able to stay faithful to someone who he is bored with and when he craves porn rather than the kind of sex you are comfortable with.

 

That can lead to a discussion about how he is already bored with your sexually, and frankly if he wants/needs more pornographic activities to stimulate himself, that perhaps you are not the right woman for him, especially considering your history of abuse, and he needs to find a woman who is more sexually compatible with himself.

 

You also need to talk to him about how he need to get treatment for his suicidal impulses, and it is not wise to have a wedding when he needs to sort himself out, especially if you two are fighting and it puts more stress on him. And that perhaps he is suicidal because the relationship isn't working if he starts getting more suicidal the closer the wedding is getting, so you both need to take a break and figure this out before proceeding.

 

And regarding your family being disappointed, all you have to tell them when you break it off is that he was insisting you go on a sex tourism vacation to see Thai hookers do ping pong shows on your honeymoon! Very few people would see that as a 'normal' thing and would understand why you would break that off. Or tell them the truth, that he is very depressed and suicidal and he needs to deal with that rather than have a wedding right now.

[Hanz33]

okies, he ended up calling me on the satalite phone. I was a bit off guard becasue he said he would call me tomorrow. He was under the assumption that I was going to call of the wedding after the txt. He also said, thats not why he was calling becasue if I had made my decision up there was no point in him trying to change it. - My first thought was, you won't even give it a go? lol

 

Anyway, I mainly discussed how I felt like he disrespected me and explained how by him getting all narky at me for expressing my opinion was making it look like my opinions were not valid and was making me very frightened about the wedding. I said that it needed to change. He was very respectful and listened to everything I said and waited for me to finish. And I also said that I was not willing to go into marriage with the risk of him believing I was going to be the 'good wife who shut her mouth and did what she was told'. He said he new he was the problem. He new he was at fault and he new he did exactly what I discribed - which was, I start a calm conversation about my concerns and he snaps at me half way through and then I get angry at him for snapping and then I apologise for about me snapping and then everything is fine and dandy and he doesn't own up to any of his responsibilities for his behavior. So to his big credit he owned up for it. He also said he realises this isn't fixed yet just by one talk but he acknowledges his mistakes. I also asked if he ever even realises he is in the wrong while it is happening and he just doesn't own up to it? and he said yes sometimes. He then asked if there was anything else I wanted to talk about.

 

I bought up the sex show. I explained the connection between child abuse and this show and how it would make me feel. To his credit he never disrupted me and let me finish. He said it never even crossed his mind and he did understand that part. I also said, putting that aside - I still am finding it hard and I am shocked that you want to go to something like this on our honeymoon. He said again that to him the honeymoon is no different to a holiday. I asked him if he could see my point of view and he said not really. He also said that he doesn't see why I had to speak about my point of view if he had already agreed not to go. I said it was important for me to express my point of view and for him to understand my point of view (but doesn't have to agree) becasue thats how we learn as a couple how we each work, how we grow together. I said I wanted to know everything about him, how he feels about something, what he likes, and I would like to be able to go to somebody as an example "nah he would never do that, becasue i know him.

 

We said allot more. We spoke for an hour but this was the main points.

 

He understood why I wanted to be heard but didn't understand what was the difference between a honeymoon and a holiday but understood why I didn't want to go to the sex show. He reiterated which I have always believed - that he wasn't thinking of going to get his perv on, it was about of curosity and he never looked into what the consequences were for the girls. After everything was said I thanked him for listening to me and told him it was extremely important that he did this otherwise I would have had to make a decision that I really didn't want to make.

 

So, what are your thoughts?

[Seraphim]

He is telling you what you want to hear. Just because someone says something does not mean they intend to clean up their act. I think he should prove himself before you marry him.

[Seraphim]

The thing is you are at the miserable level already and you are not even married yet. See? I am not sure how you are not getting how abnormal he is at this point. This is just not a female point of view. I asked my husband this morning what he felt about your story. He was aghast. Really. He was stunned. He said run away far and fast.

[tiredofvampires]

He was under the assumption that I was going to call of the wedding after the txt. He also said, thats not why he was calling becasue if I had made my decision up there was no point in him trying to change it. - My first thought was, you won't even give it a go? lol

 

So then...why was he calling?

 

I do think this is revealing. It's not just an aside, to be brushed off with a laugh. I know it seems petty -- but it's the small things that reveal the bigger things. And this is one of them. If you want to call off the wedding and he just says, "Oh well, no use trying to change your mind" -- what kind of marriage would you be walking into? A marriage that he won't fight for? A marriage that he doesn't even want to take the initiative to fix? Or, maybe that statement was calling your bluff, as an attempt to subtly make YOU the desperate one, so he wouldn't have to play that part. Either way, this is VERY TELLING, and bad news.

 

Here's more of the incriminating small things that get buried under/disguised behind all the rest of the good talk:

 

I asked him if he could see my point of view and he said not really. He also said that he doesn't see why I had to speak about my point of view if he had already agreed not to go. I said it was important for me to express my point of view and for him to understand my point of view (but doesn't have to agree) becasue thats how we learn as a couple how we each work, how we grow together. I said I wanted to know everything about him, how he feels about something, what he likes, and I would like to be able to go to somebody as an example "nah he would never do that, becasue i know him.

 

Why wouldn't he see your point of view about something that is so crystal clearly what could naturally be expected by a woman on her honeymoon?? If he HONESTLY doesn't see your point of view, then he's too blind and excuse me, stupid (though I don't believe he's that stupid), of a man to marry. Even if you understand HIS point of view and don't share it, it's a point of view one can see (I do understand his curiosity); yet it's more of a stretch to see his point of view than yours. So something is terribly wrong with him if he can't at least empathize with your point of view, and give you that much. Empathy is very important in a relationship, even if you stand your ground about important things.

 

Next, and even WORSE, he's said he doesn't know why you are needing to express yourself since he agreed not to go. Here's the translation of that statement: "Now that you've gotten your way and defeated me, rained on my parade, and humiliated me, at least shut the *%&* up." If you want to be with someone who cares about how you think and feel, as that's what you value, YOU WON'T FIND IT HERE. He's told you that in not so many words.

You say he said he was willing to listen to you, but this comes at the point of the knife: that you may call off the wedding. So this once, he's going to behave. But this statement above is your red flag that you need. People like this usually leave a clue somewhere about how sincere they are about changing. And if after you talk to him about needing to be heard, and he "understands" your need enough to listen, for him to say, "I don't know why you need to express yourself when I just gave in to you" means he still sees this relationship through the lens of a power struggle, not the love you want, which is to learn about and really KNOW and love the other.

 

You can't marry a man whose ESSENTIAL VIEW of a relationship is that of a power struggle. Your life will be continual strife and invalidation with someone like this. Nothing has changed. Nothing WILL change. Because this is what he NEEDS. You can't teach someone how to respect you. They either do, or they don't. And once they've come to disrespect you, there's usually no going backwards.

 

The problem with his response, as to your next step, is that it will seem terribly unfair for you not to at least give him a chance, and you will look like the "bad guy" if you leave now. So you are now put in this position of giving him a chance to change. He's recognized he has stuff to change, at least in the words he uttered. He's put the ball cleverly in your court. But did he suggest how he wanted to try? What he was willing to do? How you would handle it if he started to behave in these ways again? Does he even want to -- for his own sake -- understand what drives him? That's another whole story.

 

And even if he promised he'd do this or that, I'm going to stand firmly in what I've said: the things he's said demonstrate an orientation that is really about seeing this as getting his way or not; about winning or losing; whether it's "I wouldn't try to change your mind about calling off the wedding" or "if I agreed not to go to the ping pong show, why do you need to even tell me how you feel?", he's telling you in between the other conciliatory statements that he's not prepared to make this an emotionally safe, trusting, devoted, intimate, loving effort.

 

I know this is very hard to take at face value from total strangers, without finding out for yourself. And people usually need to find out for themselves, unfortunately. But what will happen if you decide to give him a chance, because he's given you some big concessions verbally here, is that things will slowly start to degenerate again. Or, even quickly. And then you will find yourself coming back to this conversation, asking what it even meant to him? And he'll say, "What, you expect me to change OVERNIGHT??" and again, guilt trip you into feeling you are expecting something wrong, which is to see too much progress too fast. So you'll bite the bullet and convince yourself changing such things take a long time. And continue to be dragged through the mud, in rollercoaster fashion. Because hey, anyone can say it'll take time to change with no specific timetable and that'd sound reasonable (since personal growth is not a straight line). That could go on until you're 90. And then you will be boxed in because you've invested so much in this, you'll feel perhaps therapy, or something else might help. And it won't, because of what I said:

 

This is a very deep character issue. Someone who says that his happiness makes you angry and that you deprive him is tying a noose around your neck, by telling you you've tied one around his.

 

Say "I do", and watch him kick the box out.

 

Tell your family and friends that you did this to save yourself a lifetime of misery, and if they really want to know the inside story, you'll be more than relieved to share your reasons. Try to do something nice for each of them and see them anyway, as another poster said. Go to your bridal party and make it a party for friends where you 'come out' about this, and enlist their support. No good girlfriend wants to see her friend go into a lifetime of misery, just because they bought expensive lingerie for the bride-to-be.

 

They will forgive you eventually (if they're that small-minded to hold it against you in the first place). But you'll never forgive YOURSELF if you go through with this wedding, when deep in your gut, many times here, you've revealed you know this is a bad idea.

[Miss Firecracker]

If a man doesn't see the difference in a vacation and a honeymoon, then he doesn't deserve a honeymoon. His maturity level sounds less than a 12 year old boy.

[Donovan79]

There's only one thing that matters here: behavior X upsets you. It upsets you. He's about to make a vow saying that you're the most important thing in his life, yet he's okay with you being upset. It doesn't matter if it's cooter ping pong or hawaiian pizza, if you don't like it but he insists on doing it anyway, he's an ass. You really gotta think about how well this is going to end down the line. Is the this the kind of man you want setting the values that your children will grow to learn?

[Seraphim]

There's only one thing that matters here: behavior X upsets you. It upsets you. He's about to make a vow saying that you're the most important thing in his life, yet he's okay with you being upset. It doesn't matter if it's cooter ping pong or hawaiian pizza, if you don't like it but he insists on doing it anyway, he's an ass. You really gotta think about how well this is going to end down the line. Is the this the kind of man you want setting the values that your children will grow to learn?

 

Better yet this is how your children will treated and how their opinions will be treated too. Just think about it. Do you want your CHILDREN treated like this. It only perpetuates the cycle.

[Wayfara]

I bought up the sex show. I explained the connection between child abuse and this show and how it would make me feel. To his credit he never disrupted me and let me finish. He said it never even crossed his mind and he did understand that part.

 

I don't think he is sincere when he says it never crossed his mind. You have said he is a smart man and anyone with a brain can figure out so I think he just doesn't care as it would be for his entertainment but confessing that would paint him as a jerk so he says it never crossed his mind.

 

Talking is easy, action is not so I think you need more time than six weeks to address the issues and I think the issues should be resolved before a wedding.

 

What needs to be addressed is that he mostly seems to care about himself. He guilt trips you when you don't service him sexually, he doesn't care if you are not in the mood because his fix is more important. When you had nightmares about the sexual abuse in your past his first reaction is to get mad, he didn't care if you were scared because his sleep was more important. If his daughter would sleep around he says he will punish her, he doesn't care if she needs love because his shame is more important. In my opinion this is a man that doesn't have much empathy for other people.

 

I also think it's kind of hypocritical that he would punish a daughter for sleeping around when he sees cheating with a prostitute as okay, I kind of doubt he would punish a son the same for sleeping around with prostitutes.

 

You are afraid to what would happen if he would take a trip to Thailand without you and I understand why. He jokes about getting hard when he sees the prostitutes and he doesn't think cheating with prostitutes is cheating because his mate told him that. If his mates told him he had to try out a prostitute he seems like the type who would fall for the peer pressure and curiosity.

 

I think if he is sincera about changing his ways he will agree to postponing the wedding to resolve this.

[lalalollipops]

Come on guys, I think all the reasoning and long posts won't convince the OP bc she's clearly got her goggles on =(. I guess this really is a case of 'you'll see when it happens.'

 

All I can say is there is clearly sth mentally wrong with the guy and this is his character. All the amount of pleasing him, sex, extra attention, etc etc won't change what he is. People don't change, maybe if he was an tween and got in trouble in school for fighting, he can redeem himself with age... But this guy is an adult. And he acts this way. And he treats you like this. With total disregard for your opinions, for your well being. This guy is only going to get worse if you marry him cos he'll see you as a doormat =( that's specially laid out in front of him to rub his dirty feet on.

 

Good luck I guess.

[Hanz33]

Thank you for taking the time to write this I really apprechiate it. I guess I had noticed these 'contridictions' but actively ignored them to save some heartbreak.

 

In regards to the power struggle I feel that you are right. When ever I bring up a point I feel like his main priority is 'winning' rather than sorting out what the real problem is.

 

At the beginning he had said "What do you want me to do about it?" and I said, well only you can choose that, you are your own person. If he can't work it out himself then he will never change.

 

 

Nevertheless I feel like it is suspended until he comes home. Whatever I do, I can't do it over the phone and I woudl like to go to the therapy - not becasue I think it will fix everything but I think it will be easier for me to work things out in my head.

 

I guess my main fear now is - although he may/may not change - I feel like what we have been talking about - should come naturally to a person.

[Hanz33]

Come on guys, I think all the reasoning and long posts won't convince the OP bc she's clearly got her goggles on =(. I guess this really is a case of 'you'll see when it happens.'

 

I agree at the moment. I woke up again with the same intensions. And I hope people don't feel like they wasted their time becasue I have taken allot on board and it has made me realise that its not me, I deserve this respect and he clearly isn't giving it to me. I feel like I will know what to do when I see him face to face. Which won't be for another month.

 

So I am going to go on my Hens fortnight and I won't post back until after I have seen him face to face.

 

I hope everyone can apprechiate that I love this man very very much and I have been with him for 6 years. I may need to, as many people do - learn the hard way.

[Wayfara]

I agree at the moment. I woke up again with the same intensions. And I hope people don't feel like they wasted their time becasue I have taken allot on board and it has made me realise that its not me, I deserve this respect and he clearly isn't giving it to me. I feel like I will know what to do when I see him face to face. Which won't be for another month.

 

So I am going to go on my Hens fortnight and I won't post back until after I have seen him face to face.

 

I hope everyone can apprechiate that I love this man very very much and I have been with him for 6 years. I may need to, as many people do - learn the hard way.

 

Please don't feel guilty about asking for advice, we give our thoughts voluntary and no one should feel forced or guilted to take an advice. We don't know your situation as good as you know your own situation and ultimately it is you who are going to live with the decision you make and we can be wrong. What matters is if you think this is the kind of man you want to marry, if he has the values you seek in a husband and father to your children. Only you know the answer.

 

About learning the hard way it is nothing I would recommend to anyone. A drunk driver may not learn to stop driving drunk until he has an drunk accident hurting himself or someone else, he learns the hard way but I think he wishes he learned the easy way. For those who have the luxury to skip learning the hard way I deeply recommend skipping it.

[Lonewing]

Thailand is something one does with their Wolfpack, not with their wife...

 

It sounds like he really enjoyed Hangover 2.

[tiredofvampires]

When ever I bring up a point I feel like his main priority is 'winning' rather than sorting out what the real problem is.

 

And that took a lifetime to develop, as a way of dealing with the world and people. Even the MOST diligent person, who fully realized this problem -- which usually takes a couple of decades to even see as a problem -- can take the rest of their life changing that set of priorities and reactions to conflict.

 

He's not even an embryo in terms of maturation on this score.

 

So just know what you're up against.

 

And you are very right -- these things SHOULD come naturally to a person. There are some things that a couple or a person can work on that don't necessarily come naturally, such as learning ways of communicating better, ways of expressing what they're feeling more, learning how to compromise when both are invested in the good of the whole.

 

But there are things I've learned you can't hope to change. A person who is not interested in you as a UNIT, you can't change. You can't work on SELFISNESS with someone. A person who is selfish, I find, is usually terminally that way, unless they have some kind of life-threatening/altering event, which comes rarely and is the exception, not the rule.

 

I hate to sound so dismal, and usually I'm someone who tries to encourage people to try everything to make something work out. But you can't "address" selfishness and hope for any satisfaction. People who don't "naturally" want to make their partner happy are not going to learn that. It's not a SKILL.

 

And as I said, you also can't make a person who disrespects you and your wishes turn around and start respecting them through therapy and talking things out. It's like trying to get someone to like onions who just doesn't, by telling them to keep trying. It's not in him to respect you (and probably anyone he will be with). Period. Again -- not a SKILL.

 

Which is why I said that this is going to be a losing battle for you, all the way (while he's in it to "win", you'll be in it to try to clean up that mess again and again). I think it's a grand idea you're going to therapy, because there is a lot here you do need to get straight in your own head and learn how to frame about the past, as it relates to what you ought to look for in people from here on.

 

I don't know if your plan is to include him or do couple's counseling (sorry if I missed that part if you addressed it), but I did that once even though I knew in my heart of hearts that our relationship was on life support. I just needed the therapy to somehow see, and to feel fully convinced it could not be saved, and to know I'd done everything...and to be able to pull the plug.

 

I do agree you should do this in person, though, not over the phone.

 

Just speaking for myself and my own post, like I said, I do not expect that you will take the advice to just leave this man. When I was where you were, I thought I could still fight this kind of thing and win. No one else's experience could have stood in for my own, so I *wouldn't* take my advice if I were you, either, quite honestly, even though it's quite clear what needs to happen here. Yes, it's a lot to ask you to leave someone you've spent 6 years with, improvements sight unseen, who you've come this far with. (And the danger is that the more time you put in, the more you become afraid of leaving, so it's a bit of a sinkhole.) I look back on things in my life now and know what I should have done instead of what I did. What I should have done is what I/we're telling you to do. Someday, you'll be saying that, too -- given what you have posted, the writing is on the wall in neon. But at least you know what the issues are now, and you've got the voices of reason on your shoulder moving forward. You know better what you're facing. When it becomes more clear and inescapable for you, you won't have come accross these ideas for the first time. So maybe going in eyes wide open will hasten the process of recognition and getting free, for you.

 

Again, good for you about the therapy. Be sure to stick with that. At very least, I strongly urge you to postpone the wedding, while you work on this.

 

Be prepared for him to use everything, including spells of decency, to keep you just pacified enough not to walk and to remain confused about his capacity for love.

 

 

 

Good luck. Ultimately, it's going to take a leap of courage, in your own best interests.