Daughter won't pay rent

[DN]

I also told her if she pays me what she would have to pay rent somewhere else, I would put most of it in an account for her.

I think you kind of shot yourself in the foot by saying this because it doesn't really make sense. On the one hand you say you need her to pay rent because you will no longer get child support and can't afford to subsidise her but then you say you will put most of that money into an account for her. So her reaction is likely to be "Mom doesn't really need the money then - what she is trying to do is to force me to save my money and I have the right to save or spend my money as I decide".

 

If you need the money to pay the bills then charge her what you need and is fair. But don't try to save her money for her because that undermines your claim to need the money.

[lavenderdove]

I think this is a bigger problem though than just not hurting her feelings... by letting her continue in a pseudo-adolescence and continuing to pay for her while she uses her minimum wage job money for toys like ipods and Xmas for her friends, it is setting her up for wasting years that would be better spent pursuing education to get her a better job. She doesn't have to declare a major at all in college the first two years, so saying she needs to know for sure what career she wants doesn't matter those first two years anyway.

 

Now is the prime time for her to be in college rather than missing that experience or postponing launch into the real world. I hear so many stories of parents stuck with kids in their late 20s and 30s who still live with them and work minimum wage jobs or not at all, while claiming they can't leave because they don't have enough money... they stay home and play video games and hang out in clubs and basically have an extended adolescence.

 

Adolescence goes to 18, and she is beyond that now and needs a little push to get thru to her that it is not ok to waste years drifting in order to stay an adolescent and not be take care of herself and her own finances.

 

I know many parents who handle this by telling their children they can either live at home and go to school fulltime and work parttime, but if they don't want to go to school to get a career, then they need to get out on their own and really understand how little minimum wage really is and hence give them an incentive to get a better career.

[Circe]

I think you kind of shot yourself in the foot by saying this because it doesn't really make sense. On the one hand you say you need her to pay rent because you will no longer get child support and can't afford to subsidise her but then you say you will put most of that money into an account for her. So her reaction is likely to be "Mom doesn't really need the money then - what she is trying to do is to force me to save my money and I have the right to save or spend my money as I decide".

 

 

Exactly. You made it about control.

 

I think she's old enough to pay rent - but if she'd rather live on her own than pay you rent - that's her choice too. I don't really understand why you would not want her to have that choice. I suppose she could pay you a lot less than market rent - but again - it's her choice. You have choices too (that seem to involve accepting no rent or kicking her out) but so does she.

 

I would initially have said just open up to her - tell her you love living with her and don't want her to leave but you simply are struggling to make ends meet and you need some help.

 

However - now that you've told her you'll keep the money in a separate account for her - well - you don't really have a reason for asking for rent anymore except "I'm teaching you to be responsible". Well I don't think too many 19 year olds (who are good daughters) want to be "taught" to be responsible by paying their mothers a portion of their wage so their mothers can keep the amount in a separate account.

 

I was once a good 19 yr old who paid my parents 100% of my wages thinking that they were struggling (from the age of 17-19 I did that). The moment I found out they never were struggling - they just wanted to manage my earnings - I was extremely resentful. I didn't deserve that - especially as a good 19 year old daughter.

[BriarRose]

I would cut her some slack. She is just only 19.

 

The world is tough out there and it is hard to find a decent paying job that one can live on.

 

Give her a nudge, but don't push out of the nest.

 

I agree. I think asking a 19 year old who makes minimum wage to pay rent (because your child support is stopping) is a bit harsh.

[avman]

I agree. I think asking a 19 year old who makes minimum wage to pay rent (because your child support is stopping) is a bit harsh.

 

Yet apparently this 19 year old has plenty of money to blow on Christmas presents for all her friends. So I don't think it is at all unreasonable to ask her to be contributing to household expenses.

 

And the reason the child support is ending is that a 19 year old should be contributing to their own support now.

[tinkerbellkj]

Yet apparently this 19 year old has plenty of money to blow on Christmas presents for all her friends. So I don't think it is at all unreasonable to ask her to be contributing to household expenses.

 

And the reason the child support is ending is that a 19 year old should be contributing to their own support now.

 

I agree with this. I cannot imagine telling my parents that I would not pay rent, they would have booted me out the door and told me to go find someplace to live then! If I had made those threats that I'd "just move out", they would have been like, okay, good luck. She may "only" be 19 years old, but she has an income, and life has got to start someplace. You don't get things in life for free. I moved out and went to college when I was 18 and never moved back in with my parents again. By the time I was in my own apartment, and managing my own finances, I had my electric shut off because I had no money. Of course, my parents helped me get it turned back on, but you have better believe I had to pay them back IMMEDIATELY. I learned to budget better after that.

 

Reality doesn't wait for you to be on the same page as you, and when you are an adult, paying for your living expenses is your reality.

[-Sanguine-]

I'm going to add my input.. considering I am pretty much your daughter's age.

 

I moved out when I was 18 so I never had to discuss this with my mom.. but if it had happened, I have a few thoughts. I do not think it is fair to ask her to pay for all of the rent. I worked a minumum wage job when I lived at home and I paid for all my expenses aside from my contact lenses. Otherwise, I bought all my clothes, paid my phone bill, etc. and I didn't have a lot of money left over besides what I was saving up for college. There would have been no way I could save up and pay rent at the same time.

 

I do think it's fair that she contributes, though. She shouldn't get off without having to help at all. But I do think she needs to be given some time to figure out what she wants. I realize that people think she will learn independence this way, but sometimes you just need some time to adapt. So I think maybe if you make her give you like.. a quarter of her paycheck that would be fair. Or perhaps she could contribute to paying for the groceries for the time being.

 

Anyway, those are just my thoughts. Good luck!

[lavenderdove]

^^

But the issue is the daughter isn't saving up for anything... she is spending all her money on iPods and friends and saying she doesn't want to go to school now...

 

My big fear when i see kids living at home rent free and working minimum wage jobs (or not at all) is that they are delaying dealing with the realities of life and not getting an accurate picture of how much it costs to live (and hence that they should quit wasting time hanging out and spending money on trivial things rather than get themselves education or training to do a career that will get them a living wage rather than just minimum wage).

 

What frequently happens to kids who go the living at home and minimum wage route is they get involved in drinking and drugs and piddling around in 'fun' things like video games or clubs or non-paying leisure activities while their parents foot the bill. They have no goals other than fiddling around with no responsibility and chasing the latest whim. They are not pursuing growing up, they are pursuing staying home and being taken care of as extended adolescents.

 

Parents aren't doing them any favors by letting them get off track and linger at home refusing to deal with adult realities or educate themselves with the goal of getting a real career. A good parent recognizes that the child needs to go in the RIGHT direction so that they can be self supporting and have a decent career, and letting her hang out at home and not support herself while blowing her money on friends and 'toys' is not good parenting.

[coastalgirl]

Well there seems to be some real differences of opinion. The younger crowd feel I should cut her some slack and get her to contribute something, others say she should pay rent or I should show her the door.

When I worked on a budget with her I stressed how important it was to have a security fund in case she get's laid off or whatever. That way she would have some additional money to pay her rent and bills until she was over her crisis, lost job, whatever. Having some extra money on hand can really avoid major stress.

 

I don't think I shot myself in the foot. I suggested that if she paid me some rent, no where near what she would have to pay out in the world, I would put some of it in a savings account for her for a security fund. I offered this option to her but she did not like the idea. She wants to be in control of her money so that is ok. I only hope she does save something but that is up to her.

 

I think in a few months after she has had some job experience I will ask her to contribute something to the household. I also expect her to now pay for her contacts, bus fare, make-up, clothes etc. I have raised my kids with not much left over after expenses so I think it's fair to let her buy some things for herself with her first few pay cheques as I have not been able to buy her clothes on a regular basis as I just make it every month and have very little left over. The problem has been one income, three kids and high rent, eats the pay cheque very quickly. My kids have had to do without things over the years.

 

She did not have a cell phone or any toys like most of her friends. My kids have learned that they don't get things handed to them so she does work for some extra's and that is ok for a few months.

 

I will talk to her again after Christmas about contributing something to the household but not market rent. I am in no way pushing her out. She is the one who has mentioned that she wants to move out with some friends. If she does then she will find out real quick about the reality of paying rent, bills etc. Natural consequences is a good way to learn. I can only tell her so much.

[arcadefire]

I feel that she is being selfish by not being financially prudent. The harsh reality of life is that you will never be able to buy all the things you want, new, sparkly, right now. She's deluding herself that she can. Some of the biggest mistakes of parents is not teaching their children the importance of financial responsibility.

 

My opinion is that she is being lazy. Does she not want to pursue a bachelors because she enjoys living rent free, easy going (maybe minimum wage) job with no upside potential in the long term? The quickest way for her to learn is the hard way, unfortunately. She should definitely move out with her friends - it might teach her a thing or two about managing money.

[coastalgirl]

True. And she will most likely do that. The good thing is you can always go to school. I went back at age 40. She needs some of life's natural consequences to find out what it's all about.

My telling her will just not have the same effect of her finding out for herself.

[eraseme]

I didn't read this whole post, although I did read your original post. Your case is actually not very different from many people today in the USA. Many children are putting off growing up, and I always thought that suddenly being a grown up right out of high school is ridiculous. The human mind is not fully matured until 25. Some men haven't even completed puberty before college. The legal definition of 18 being an adult is only this way for tax, voting, and army purposes.

 

link removed

 

Mentally, your daughter is still a child, and she probably will be that way for several years, or unless she goes through some kind of strife where she must understand the value of life or the dollar.

 

Here is my story: A lot of stuff had to do with severe depression I had throughout my childhood and teen years. When I graduated from high school I had no motivation to do anything. My parents were not into the idea of me not going to college (my mother was afraid I'd never go otherwise) and I was basically talked into going to a crappy college in the middle of nowhere, which only made my need to really rebel grow, because I was stuck in a boring place with nothing to do. I met a guy online, and did probably one of the most stupid things ever--I ran away with him accross the country to live with him. There I wasted my entire tuition, which had been completely paid-for by my grandfather. I also made horrible grades in school (I didn't drop out only because I have severe illnesses where I need healthcare) which affected my GPA forever, and of course partied all the time. I had a job, but it didn't really pay anything.

 

So I came back home when I ran out of money, and I was trying to figure out what to do with my life. I was in a crappy resturant working as a cashier and suddenly the light bulb appeared over my head. I don't want to do this for the rest of my life. There were people there that this was their life. They had to work there, because they had nothing else. But I had a chance to get higher education and I was wasting it. It was that moment that my life changed. I took school seriously. No, my parents didn't make me pay rent, but I stopped partying and I was studying every night. I transferred to another college and moved out, and many times I would pass up events my friends invited me to because it was really important I raise my GPA. I retook classes, I took summer classes, I busted my butt to do as best as I could. The last two years of college I worked the hardest.

 

I told you this story, because no matter what you do, you can't force a person to have their great epiphany. There are certain things you can do--not pay for her food, not pay for the extras, not do her laundry or things that she needs done which she can clearly do herself, but ultimately this is something that she needs to get. Kicking her out will only build resentment and probably a bigger rebellion. She's rebelling right now, and it's a small rebellion. I say ride it out. This is not being passive, this is letting her make mistakes. Which is hard, but unless she's harming herself it's something she needs to learn.

 

BTW I am, unfortunately, with my parents again. I graduated from college 3 years ago and have been getting credentials for a job (I initially planned on going to graduate school but decided to take a break for a few years). Many children move back in several times before the final "launch."

[eraseme]

I will also comment, after skimming some comments here--people here are idealizing their adolescence rather than thinking about what life is like now. Yes, this girl (and she's a girl, by the way, not a woman. She's a child) needs to learn responsibility. But the legal age has nothing to do with it. Mentally she is still a child, and just because a person adapts to the situation they're in does not mean that we're all adults at 19. It's a well-known fact the human brain is still developing until 25. I didn't properly call myself a woman until I was 25 anyway.

 

You cannot force a person to mature. It takes actual life experiences for this to happen--not something false or imposed. I'm not saying you have to sit there and do nothing, but basically just stop doing things for her. Have her pay her own bills and for her own food, and do her own chores. She probably will never pay rent to you, at least not any time soon. That's just a sad fact.

 

Making a budget with her, frankly, is useless. Making a budget assumes she understands why budgets are used and why people need them. She doesn't. Again, explaining to her is pointless, because she has to live this. You make a home for her, so she doesn't need to have a budget. If she intends to go to college, that is your chance to impose financial restrictions if you are paying for it--or she will have to learn through financial aid. Most likely, college will be her big learning experience. It sounds like, if you have enough money to support her if she moves out, what is the deal? You think she should pay rent? You said before she needed to, but now you said you're pay for it. So I'm a bit confused. A kid going through a rebellion is not going to do anything their parent wants... She most likely will gladly move out at some point though, because she's in the purgatory of adulthood.

 

Also I dunno about the rent in British Columbia, but I have a friend in Montreal who says the rent is crazy cheap, so perhaps she would fare well if she went to a school around there.

[SilverManic]

My grandparents brought me up. As soon as I got a job I was earning £400 (About $700) and giving them half of this. This payed for my food, electric, part of the morgage etc. Personally if she's working full time she should be paying for more than just her stuff. She uses your electric and your paying rent on a 3 bed place for her. I think you should be working out how much rent she should be paying. Don't kick her out, but she needs to face reality. You need to tell her that the child support is stopping and that you will need help to support her if she is planning on staying.

 

I hope that when my daughter is 19 she doesn't try and pull that. I brought my own bed when it broke, my own extras and paid my way for food and bills. I then went to college and I didn't have to pay much because all my expenses went on getting there. But now I am still struggeling to get by and I have worked really hard to get where I am.

 

At 19 she isn't a child. I was out working at 16. I don't know if late teens are considered a child in the US but in England many parents turf their 16 year olds out to work that is why they are raising the legal school age to 18.

[catfeeder]

It doesn't need to be all or nothing. You can still 'support' an adult child in moving out of the house. It's just a matter of moving the expense of keeping her in-house toward helping her get a new start--and a taste of reality. You can supplement her efforts outside the house, and if she falls flat, you can allow her to come back if she agrees to your conditions--such as needing to work and pay for a class or two at night school. The only time it's necessary to completely cut her off is if she abuses your willingness to help. In that case, it's her choice to go it alone, not yours, as long as you've made those consequences clear up front and you're willing to stand by them. Even in that case you can let her know that your door is open to her return IF she agrees to the conditions at some point in the future.

 

Conditions are not the enemy, they're a negotiation tool for getting a kid launched. Failure to launch isn't a help to anyone.

[eraseme]

Failure to launch is a condition, it's not a method.

 

The problem here is these people are thinking in old ways despite evidence to the contrary.

[journeynow]

My son was 18, finished early with High School but had no solid plans or savings for college, and he wanted an apartment of his own. I told him he could stay and pay for room and board (less than what it would cost on his own) and the money would go into a joint account. If he eventually went to college or started a business the money would be his to use for that. If he never came up with a plan to invest in his future I would keep the rent, which is what paying rent to anyone else would be like. He eventually agreed, did if for a year and a half, and it went far better than I expected. We ended up getting a good rate on a certificate of deposit, he got a good paying job, saved much more than the rent, took community college courses (which he paid for and was subsidized by his employer) and was fully ready for college and living on his own when he moved out. I was so proud of how well he made choices for himself.

 

While he lived at home, I paid the household bills but it was his job to write out the checks (which I signed and mailed) because I wanted him to have a feel of what paying monthly bills was like.

[catfeeder]

Failure to launch is a condition, it's not a method. [...]

 

Yes, and there are methods that can be employed to prevent the condition. Offering daughter choices in how you opt to offer limited support is reasonable. If she doesn't like the options, she's free to flee without accepting any them. If that fails, she's always welcome to choose again. Nobody can force another to grow and learn, but you can remove the conditions that prevent progress in that direction. Nobody is 'entitled' to take your efforts toward your own survival for granted, and if an adult child believes that they can do it better, there's no reason to withhold help in allowing them to try.

[coastalgirl]

An interesting situation. I have international students that stay with me for the school year. Their parents pay for them to come to Canada to learn English, learn about the culture etc.

These kids are from South America. I get to know them really well as I treat them like members of my family and they are with me for a while. In some cultures children do not move out until they get married. My current student has a credit card given to him from his parents. He buys whatever he wants within reason. He says in his country their are only rich and poor. No middle class. He has hired help that make his meals, do his laundry, even put it away. Their parents pay for their schooling and most everything. The only stipulation or rules they have is that they get excellent marks so they can get into a good university and get a good job. They know the alternative, poverty and they do not want to go there.

 

In North America we like to push our kids out the door and send our parents to retirement homes. In other countries they keep the children at home until they finish school, get a job and get married and they also have their parents move in when they get older.

 

Just an interesting observation and my daughter and student have had conversations around this.

 

I have heard it said by doctors that young men do not fully mature until age 25, I do believe this. I think women mature sooner though. My daughter, she is immature, has not been out in the real world and of course has no idea what it is like to be self sufficient. She will find out one day.

 

She does pay for her clothes, bills etc. but the next move will be to get her to buy her own food and do her own laundry. Funny story. I did my students laundry and gave it to him in a laundry baske when he first arrived. He had a very hard time figuring out where to put everything. He struggled with it and I had a good laugh about it, not at him of course. His laundry is done at home by a hired person. They even put all his clothes away. They pick them up off the floor where he leaves them. I wonder how the adjustment is for them when they do move out on their own. I guess they will just hire help too so they may never have to do chores.

[catfeeder]

[....] The only stipulation or rules they have is that they get excellent marks so they can get into a good university and get a good job. They know the alternative, poverty and they do not want to go there.

 

In North America we like to push our kids out the door and send our parents to retirement homes. In other countries they keep the children at home until they finish school, get a job and get married and they also have their parents move in when they get older. [...]

 

Yes, and you qualified this very well with the stipulation above. If a parent considers going to school to improve your potential earning power as 'your job,' and this earns you an extended stay in the household, that makes sense to me. If the kid quits all schooling and tells a parent that he or she doesn't intend to contribute to the household, what happens?

[eraseme]

 

I have heard it said by doctors that young men do not fully mature until age 25, I do believe this. I think women mature sooner though. My daughter, she is immature, has not been out in the real world and of course has no idea what it is like to be self sufficient. She will find out one day.

Sadly, you obviously read nothing of what I said about the human mind. No adult is mature until the age of 25. It's not just men. It's all people. But, if you had read the article I'd attached, you would see that psychiatrists have hypothesized that the mind has always worked this way, and it's only that the brain adapted to the circumstances that people seemed to mentally mature early in the past. I honestly believe that.

 

In North America we like to push our kids out the door and send our parents to retirement homes. In other countries they keep the children at home until they finish school, get a job and get married and they also have their parents move in when they get older.

I don't know what Canadian culture is like, but where I live there are many adult children still living with their parents. No parent shoves their kid out of the house. I chance to say the people speaking here are of a minority. They don't exactly realize that times have changed within the last 20 years, and are in the old school of thought, unfortunately. My parents were living as a married couple with my grandparents for quite some time while my father went to college, which he didn't finish, btw, until he was 28. This was during the 60's. Perhaps this is just a mindset from Northerners? I have no idea and wouldn't want to categorize people like that, but it is a generally new thing that adult children are staying at home longer.

 

You do have to make certain stipulations, I agree. But your child will probably never pay rent. Just as I said before. So then you make it harder for her to live there, just as I said before, by not doing anything for her and make her do anything. And never lend her money. Period. But you don't have to kick her out. She'll leave on her own, trust me.

 

Also I would never put my parents in a nursing home. Are you kidding me??? What kind of payback is that for how they've taken care of me my whole life?

[avman]

but it is a generally new thing that adult children are staying at home longer

 

The point isn't that the daughter shouldn't be allowed to live at home. The point is she should be contributing to the household expenses when she does. She shouldn't be expecting to live there rent free, spend her money as she pleases, and not have a care in the world for as long as she wants. It was the daughter that threatened to move out if she was expected to pay rent.

 

Now many others have suggested a break for someone going to school full time and trying to better their chances at a career. And I'd totally be on board with that. What I'm not on board with is teaching a child they should expect a free ride where they can stay at home, contribute nothing, and do whatever they please.

[Seraphim]

I don't know what Canadian culture is like, but where I live there are many adult children still living with their parents.

 

Canadian culture is no different than American culture on this issue. Whether people keep kids at home longer and longer is an individual decision for the family. I think kids staying at home has way more to do with the economy and the fact you can in most cases not get good employment without a university education. Years ago you did not need it. I do not think it has anything to do with the fact parents are "now" realising the human mind is not adult till 25. (and yes I know that is true) Kids are at home longer because they require more education and the economy is crap. No one is suggesting throwing her out, but it is not about a free ride at 19 either.

[eraseme]

The point isn't that the daughter shouldn't be allowed to live at home. The point is she should be contributing to the household expenses when she does. She shouldn't be expecting to live there rent free, spend her money as she pleases, and not have a care in the world for as long as she wants. It was the daughter that threatened to move out if she was expected to pay rent.(...) What I'm not on board with is teaching a child they should expect a free ride where they can stay at home, contribute nothing, and do whatever they please.

I agree with you on this. But I what I don't agree with is the people who insist that a 19 year old should be able to make it on their own just because they did. Everyone has different experiences in life, what makes them think theirs is the general case? Many people I've known lived with their parents for quite some time, or gave it a few go's before the final moving out. Only a couple were able to do it the first time around. I also said this in all of my posts. The mother no longer doing anything for her so she must do it herself. This will push the daughter out of the house in a natural way. I mean, she's fully capable of doing her own chores, buying her own food, even making her own dinner, so she should be responsible for that.

 

I gave the fact that the daughter probably will never comply with the rent thing, but it won't be an issue because she will be out of there once living there becomes a hassle. If she make it on her own, great. If not, she will come home and start paying rent.

 

No one is suggesting throwing her out, but it is not about a free ride at 19 either.

Actually several people suggested just that. Also I never said that people are just now realizing about the human mind. I said attitudes are changing.

[Seraphim]

I do not think it is so much attitudes as economy. It may change though when people who stayed at home longer start having kids and let their kids do the same.

 

I stayed at home through university but I paid rent. Had I not gone to university though my mother would have told me it was time to go out and get a life in my own home.