"women perfer men who are within their leagues,men just tend to choose the best in town"

[newwave]

That's a good idea.

 

I haven't seen the new Harry Potter (well, I saw it on my computer, but not in the theaters.) Maybe I should ask her if she'd like to go see it with me?

 

Yes. Too many people make a big deal about the going out as friends but some people work better this way.

[Fudgie]

I'm sorry I hurt you, LBS, but I wasn't insulting you.

 

I just feel that what you said was raelly hurtful and somehow suggested that you'd date someone who you didn't find attractive but you would have her be "okay" with you trying to compensate for that in other ways. I don't know if you see how hurtful that is and how damaging that would be to a woman. Yes, it really does hurt!! I had that reaction because I was putting myself in HER shoes and yeah, it bites.

 

It's one thing when you look at porn just for sexual reasons...not to replace what you don't ahve. The way you made it sound, you would be looking at it because your average girlfriend wouldn't be enough to satisfy you. in that case, it's better for both you and her to cut her loose so you BOTH can find someone who is satisfying.

 

Again, sorry I hurt you but I think you need to turn it around and see how it would feel if someone did that to you, dated you because they were "settling" and didn't find you attractive and had to compensate in other ways. Think about that...I would personally just die inside if I found out that my boyfriend didn't find me attractive and had all these attractive women stuff around BECAUSE I just wasn't up to snuff. Oh man.

 

I don't think anyone deserves that, man or woman.

 

Again, sorry that I offended. I hope you can forgive me.

 

ENA is a good place. We are here to help you. There are a lot of people, myself included, who care and keep posting advice. We don't hate you. We want to help you and we genuinely want you to find happieness with a woman someday.

 

My only thing is, I just get upset when I hear about people doing what you described because I think of how hurt the woman would feel and how bad she'd feel about your body. No one deserves that.

[LightbulbSun]

I'm sorry I hurt you, LBS, but I wasn't insulting you.

 

I just feel that what you said was raelly hurtful and somehow suggested that you'd date someone who you didn't find attractive but you would have her be "okay" with you trying to compensate for that in other ways. I don't know if you see how hurtful that is and how damaging that would be to a woman. Yes, it really does hurt!! I had that reaction because I was putting myself in HER shoes and yeah, it bites.

 

No, I really wasn't trying to say that. Again, I put my foot in my mouth.

 

What I was saying is that I would probably still look at porn, and she would have to be fine with me looking at girls who are attractive, in a sexual way.

 

I understand that a lot of women have low self esteem. One of my friends in middle school, who was a beautiful girl (and was the first girl I had a crush on), was convinced that she was ugly. And even though I told her that she was beautiful, she wouldn't believe it. So I understand how society can play a part in making ALL of us feel ugly, even when we're not.

 

It's one thing when you look at porn just for sexual reasons...not to replace what you don't ahve. The way you made it sound, you would be looking at it because your average girlfriend wouldn't be enough to satisfy you. in that case, it's better for both you and her to cut her loose so you BOTH can find someone who is satisfying.

 

It wouldn't be replacing it, it would be enhancing it. I don't imagine that I would prefer fake or digital images over the real thing.

 

Again, sorry I hurt you but I think you need to turn it around and see how it would feel if someone did that to you, dated you because they were "settling" and didn't find you attractive and had to compensate in other ways. Think about that...I would personally just die inside if I found out that my boyfriend didn't find me attractive and had all these attractive women stuff around BECAUSE I just wasn't up to snuff. Oh man.

 

Again, I worded it badly. But people have had a go at me for being 'ugly', or at least ugly enough that the attractive women wouldn't want to date ME. So I've been hurt on these threads, as well.

 

I don't think anyone deserves that, man or woman.

 

I agree.

 

Again, sorry that I offended. I hope you can forgive me.

 

You didn't offend me. I was just hurt that I might have hurt you. Because I do like you and consider you one of my friends on here.

 

ENA is a good place. We are here to help you. There are a lot of people, myself included, who care and keep posting advice. We don't hate you. We want to help you and we genuinely want you to find happieness with a woman someday.

 

My only thing is, I just get upset when I hear about people doing what you described because I think of how hurt the woman would feel and how bad she'd feel about your body. No one deserves that.

 

I agree that there are good people here. I'd put the people I don't like on ignore, however I don't seem to have that feature right now (having lost my privileges through infractions.) And I wasn't talking about you, by the way, Fudgie. I like you.

 

And I agree. Again, I worded it poorly. I need to be more careful about how I word things.

[Fudgie]

I like you too, LBS. I'm not mad anymore and I understand your viewpoint now sooooo moving on.

 

I understand now what you mean about the porn thing. I personally had NO problems with my past boyfriends looking at porn, as long as it wasn't to "replace" something in the relationship. We even liked to watch it together! My current boyfriend doesn't like porn and that's okay too.

 

Sometimes I badly word things too and then people think I'm terrible/heartless when I'm not. It happens. I'm glad we got that cleared up.

 

And you're definitely not ugly. Grrr I have known girls like you mentioned who keep saying they are ugly and it drives me crazy but I never think they are and they won't listen to me. And I'm not one to give out BS compliments just to be "nice", I mean all of them. But not all of them are believed.

 

You'll always have my support and you can always talk to me, LBS. I am here to help and I'd like to see you be happy with that special someone someday.

[newwave]

I too am not bothered by porn at all. One of my ex's had a collection and we watched it together. I would never tell a husband to get rid of nudie magazines. In fact I have several myself or hot men.

 

I have to agree with Fudgie, LBS. I saw your photo and I think you are adorable. In fact if I was a little younger I'd date you. You have the look I like. I love guys on the geeky side.

[Fudgie]

I too am not bothered by porn at all. One of my ex's had a collection and we watched it together. I would never tell a husband to get rid of nudie magazines. In fact I have several myself or hot men.

 

I have to agree with Fudgie, LBS. I saw your photo and I think you are adorable. In fact if I was a little younger I'd date you. You have the look I like. I love guys on the geeky side.

 

Agreed on both counts. Guys with glasses who look a little nerdy are my weak spot!!

Luckily my boyfriend is that way, just the older version though, haha.

[tiredofvampires]

The biggest block that stops me from actually getting with a girl is being afraid to talk to and get to know a girl on a deeper level. And I think that this is because I fear getting hurt.

 

I'd like to ask that you think about doing something.

 

Every morning, when you get out of bed, ask yourself this:

 

Which is going to hurt more: being rejected 36 times over the course of the next 3 years (that's assuming a once-a-month campaign, if every month you start a conversation and a girl's not interested, or you ask her out casually [after some prior getting-acquainted as I've advised] and she declines)...and then finally finding yourself with someone who is available and open to you, engages with you genuinely and becomes ready to say yes to something romantic after a while

 

OR

 

Protecting yourself from hurt for the rest of your life, remaining celibate and despairing as you are now, as the years come and pass, come and pass, come and pass?

 

Which sounds more painful?

 

Think about that every morning, ask and answer it every day, before even doing anything else -- and look at what you have planned on your list of activities you'll do outside with other people that day, and move in concert with -- breathe with -- the answer to that question in every relevant situation that presents to you.

 

Make it a wild experiment, where the outcomes are all wildcards and you prepare yourself for anything.

[LightbulbSun]

ToV, out of those two choices, I'd say the second one is more painful.

 

Like the Nike Slogan, "Just do it!"

 

Easier said than done, I know, but I will break down those walls eventually.

[cursedgirl]

i have no problem with this thread being 100% about LBS now,but i do find it annoying that he doesn't listen. Everyday he posts the same old problems.Despite all the girls trying to help him,telling him the same thing over and over,he just never changed. He says a lot of things,but doesnt seem like he's doing it.

another thing is reality is cruel. reality is not like what this forum described.(if it was you wouldnt be a virgin till 28 ) i've always thought people here are way too nice,only giving out hopes. but truth is not really like that. Im afraid truth is,LBS,(im not insulting you) with what you can offer NOW and what you want in return, you are pretty much screwed. i really hope you can start doing things instead of posting not-so-useful threads.(it's probably the fifth time i say this to you)

[galaxy71]

I read a lot of the advice given to LBS. I have problems with the advice given to him by the women of this forum. First, I find it interesting that these women are upset and complain about how LBS emphasizes the importance of looks. I think if LBS wants to date a hottie over an average-looking women, he should do it. I don't think that some of the women giving advice to LBS should be projecting their insecurities onto LBS when giving their advice. A lot of the women giving advice have been bypassed for women who are better looking and more outgoing than they are. If LBS wants to date a hottie, that is his preference. I admit that he does have to reap the consequences of his decision though. Trying to date women who are better looking than you are is possible, but difficult. At this nightclub, I saw a bunch of average-looking guys hitting on hot women. One guy who was big was dancing with this skinny brunette with glasses. These guys were dressed up and they were getting coached by a man who is a lot successful than they are at dating women.

 

I am really puzzled at some of the words used in the advice like being "hurt". I find it ironic that the same people(women) who got LBS shy in the first place are the same people who are trying to get him out of his predicament. I think that shy people in general have the weakness of bending to much to people's wishes and desires. Out of an attempt to please people, shy people put other's interests in front of their own. I think shy people should learn that it is OK to put their own self-interest in front of other people's interest. It is OK to be rude sometimes. It is OK to push the envelope and make some waves. Instead of relying on other people for support, they should learn to look out for themselves. LBS is shy around women because he didn't have a male role model to teach him that it is fine to be aggressive and sexual around women.

 

 

 

Reading this line only makes me guilty and ashamed. I agree that we can hurt people by our actions and words. I just feel like lines like this make guys timid and cautious around women. It is just that shy people are so concerned about not offending people and hurting people, that they build a wall to protect themselves that make it difficult for other people to connect with them. A lot of the confident guys I know are good people, but they are not obsessed about hurting and offending people. They are open about the fact that some people love them while other people hate them. Shy people spend their whole lives walking on eggshells avoiding offending others while other people are carefree and go for what they want even if it "offends" others.

 

I am skeptical of taking advice from women because they don't know what it is like to approach a women as a man. Women talk about confidence, yet they don't know what are the elements that contribute to confidence. Confidence is made up of beliefs, self-esteem, good body language, strong tone of voice etc. They don't know how difficult it is for a shy guy to work on unlearning 20 to 30 years of bad habits. I am also skeptical about whether they realize how difficult self-improvement is. To compound this, I find it curious that some of the women who give advice to LBS don't practice what they preach. These women tell LBS that he has to overcome his confidence issues, yet they don't overcome their confidence issues in their own lives. Why should I follow your advice if you don't practice what you preach?? These women didn't have to work their butt off to get a boyfriend. These women coasted on their looks as they got seduced by their aggressive, horny boyfriend. Besides, I think that a lot of women in ENA are lot more introverted and reserved than women who don't use message boards.

 

Another thing is that some of the advice given on this thread sounds pretty philosophical. Whatever happened to giving practical advice? Sometimes, I get the feeling that some of the dating advice seems to be more about philosophy and pyschology than dating. I had to read some of these posts two or threes time because of how deep some of these posts are. I wonder whether some people are more concerned about getting rep points than giving advice.

 

I mean why are some of the people talking about relationships when the real issue is for LBS to be comfortable talking to women.

 

I would like to echo a belief held by a lot of people in a guy's forum. Women can never teach a guy how to be man. They just can't.

[Fudgie]

Galaxy,

 

if you read my earlier posts, you'd see that I said that line BECAUSE Lbs said something along the lines of "I would settle for an average woman but she'd have to be fine with me masturbating to porn of attractive women because she's not hot enough for me so I need to do that."

 

I was addressing this poor attitude and how it's wrong to date someone like that and then tell them "oh you're not hot enough for me, I hope you don't mind I have to look at pics of others." I mean...just wow. you have to agree, that's offensive.

 

LBS has since clarified what he was saying because he worded it poorly and now that's all cleared up.

 

But yeah, shy guy or not, if a guy sincerely had that desire (which LBS didn't, he just miswordered) then yes, he's going to get an earful from me so he gets how offensive it is. It's all about the Golden Rule, ya know?

 

And yes, you should feel guilty and ashamed by reading that line that I wrote IF you hold the attitude that I expressed above.

[Cognitive_Canine]

Frankly, I don't think being a "man" is any different than being a "woman'. Do what you need to do and do what's right.

[cursedgirl]

Im not quite with you Galaxy.Hats off to these women who are helping LBS. I just think they are so nice and so patient. Like,they must have spent heaps of time writing those long posts yeah? I didnt even spent time finishing reading them. and I cant be bothered to give him any advice cuz i dont think he listens. (just briefly scan the last approximately 9 pages of this thread you'll understand me. a whole lotta discussion ay) well, i hope he at least lost some kilos while he says all those things.

[Lamour detruit]

Frankly, I don't think being a "man" is any different than being a "woman'. Do what you need to do and do what's right.

 

While I don't agree with some of the things he said, it is true that the dating game is completely different for men compared to women, including the do's and dont's and the advice given. While there is general advice for all, often there are differences to be noted.

[The Wire]

 

I would like to echo a belief held by a lot of people in a guy's forum. Women can never teach a guy how to be man. They just can't.

 

Do it yourself then.

[ProtestTheHero]

Frankly, I don't think being a "man" is any different than being a "woman'. Do what you need to do and do what's right.

 

It's different, but I don't agree with everything that he said. It's relatively unimportant whether or not the women in this thread practice what they preach. We aren't arguing ideology, we are trying to help LBS get to a point where he will take the necessary actions and adopt the correct frame of mind to resolve his problems. If this was one of those nonspecific threads involving gender roles, we could discuss the hypocrisy in some of the expectations men and women have.

 

I was subjugated to horrible treatment at the hands of girls (perhaps women is the wrong word for them). I was explicitly and graphically made fun of, they'd feign interest in me to gauge a reaction, they'd set me up in ways to get beat up. I slip into a frame of mind every so often where I fleetingly think of retribution. Is this ok? Are the women responsible for me at times feeling like I want to get back at women? I am responsible for my actions. Deferring responsibility by putting the onus on women for how I think and feel does not fix a problem. It doesn't make me feel better. I get a free pass to blame someone else but the end of that road is still unsatisfying, whether the thoughts, beliefs, and actions that cause it are justified or not.

 

Blame is an emotional game with no winner. Hypocrisy in dating should be an intellectual conceptualization or focus for those who can successfully do it. There's no point in bemoaning that which you do not yet have the "privilege" to experience. I'm not saying that this debate is wholly useless, but in regards to LBS we're getting too far ahead and it's not a productive discussion presently.

 

The women here can be extremely useful for LBS, but I say this with some caution. You don't want to get into the frame of mind where your attitude is greatly affected by the validation or lack thereof from women here. That's not what you should be looking for. How they perceive you and why is more important. If the women here perceive you as negative, singularly focused, hypocritical, looks-oriented/superficial, etc. etc. it's worth considering that you give off many of those vibes when you're trying to connect with them. Whether or not you're ugly or attractive is no longer a useful question. Do what you can to get in shape and drop that consideration off at whatever door you enter. What you need to learn now is how to properly interact with women.

 

And now we reach the point where I agree with Galaxy. Women can not teach you how to attract other women. Being a guy in this society is different from being a girl, regardless of how many anthropology professors tell us that we're all the same. That won't happen until the expectations are the same, and right now the expectation is that the guy has to be the initiator. An average, aggressive woman can't even really understand the average guy here, either. Those with the most options are always the most selective, and I don't think anyone here will argue that guys ask out women far more than women ask out guys. It logically follows that men are less selective and that an average girl asking out a guy will probably get rejected less than her male counterpart, so a lot of what she does that she thinks she can attribute to technique isn't skill as much as it is a guy just taking what's in front of him from a sexual standpoint. Call that generalization what you will, but I doubt anyone will seriously challenge this. The only reason it's important is to explain why he needs to be learning from a guy in the attraction area.

 

In the end, lamenting the fact that we have to initiate, we have to take the risks, and we have to put a lot of our pride on the line is never as productive as learning how to do that. When it comes to attraction: Learn how to be confident as a man from a man, learn how to attract women as a man from a man, and learn how you are perceived and its importance from women.

[Stay_home]

A closed mouth doesn't get fed.

[Sparkly Eyes]

Do it yourself then.

 

hahaha, good one! His whole post is all about how women are bad in giving advice, yet he didn't have anything useful to say to LBS. And frankly, I think he has a sexist attitude which is VERY common in male dominated forums that I'm sure he visits often.

[jenny_mcs]

I don't think that some of the women giving advice to LBS should be projecting their insecurities onto LBS when giving their advice. A lot of the women giving advice have been bypassed for women who are better looking and more outgoing than they are.

 

Why in the world would you make that assumption. Many of the women giving LBS advice are married or in successful long term relationships. When we see a guy who is self-described as overwight, nerdy, and socially awkward say that he expects any girl he dates to look like a porn star, yes, we will point out the problem's he's going to encounter as a result of this attitude.

I find it ironic that the same people(women) who got LBS shy in the first place are the same people who are trying to get him out of his predicament.

No. Women did not make LBS shy.

LBS is shy around women because he didn't have a male role model to teach him that it is fine to be aggressive and sexual around women.

Oh OK, now it isn't women's fault he's shy. It's lack of male role model. Or maybe...some people have shy/introverted personalities, and it's not anyone's "fault"!

 

 

 

I am skeptical of taking advice from women because they don't know what it is like to approach a women as a man. Women talk about confidence, yet they don't know what are the elements that contribute to confidence. Confidence is made up of beliefs, self-esteem, good body language, strong tone of voice etc. They don't know how difficult it is for a shy guy to work on unlearning 20 to 30 years of bad habits. I am also skeptical about whether they realize how difficult self-improvement is.

 

You honestly think women don't understand self-improvement? Lol, you act like we are aliens from another planet. Any person who has ever tried to change or better themselves understands self-improvement.

 

To compound this, I find it curious that some of the women who give advice to LBS don't practice what they preach. These women tell LBS that he has to overcome his confidence issues, yet they don't overcome their confidence issues in their own lives. Why should I follow your advice if you don't practice what you preach?? These women didn't have to work their butt off to get a boyfriend. These women coasted on their looks as they got seduced by their aggressive, horny boyfriend. Besides, I think that a lot of women in ENA are lot more introverted and reserved than women who don't use message boards.

 

What in the world are you talking about? Why are you assuming the women posting here have self-confidence issues? I know I don't. We caosted on our looks until we got seduced by our horny boyfriends? What in the world? Your post is super strange. I don't know where you are getting this from.

Another thing is that some of the advice given on this thread sounds pretty philosophical. Whatever happened to giving practical advice? Sometimes, I get the feeling that some of the dating advice seems to be more about philosophy and pyschology than dating. I had to read some of these posts two or threes time because of how deep some of these posts are. I wonder whether some people are more concerned about getting rep points than giving advice.

People have given him TONS of practical advice. Lose weight, join clubs, expand his social circle, practice talking to people in public, etc.

 

Galaxy, your post really reveals how little you think of women. You've made a lot of negative things about the women who post on these threads. It's just all very strange.

[newwave]

Btw, I've never just "coasted" on my looks. Often if I liked a guy I pursued him, including asking him out. I don't have self confidence issues. Oh and aggressive horny men would never get a second date from me.

[kirk]

No. Women did not make LBS shy.

 

Not saying I agree/disagree on this statement, however if you look at it from LBS's perspective, if he's been constantly ignored by women, it's not exactly going to help with his self-esteem. It's HIS responsibility to get out of the mess, but he may not have created it.

 

Then again, I don't know LBS's "story", so perhaps I have the wrong impression here.

[Fudgie]

Not saying I agree/disagree on this statement, however if you look at it from LBS's perspective, if he's been constantly ignored by women, it's not exactly going to help with his self-esteem. It's HIS responsibility to get out of the mess, but he may not have created it.

 

Then again, I don't know LBS's "story", so perhaps I have the wrong impression here.

 

I'll try to fill you in:

 

LBS has crippling social anxiety and has yet to actually approach and talk to the women that he desires. He isn't really being "ignored" in the sense that he has approached them and they brushed him off...he still has to do the approaching part!

I used to have social anxiety myself and sometimes, it's brought about by bad experiences, other times, it's not. Regardless, it's still something you have push through.

[kirk]

I'll try to fill you in:

 

LBS has crippling social anxiety and has yet to actually approach and talk to the women that he desires. He isn't really being "ignored" in the sense that he has approached them and they brushed him off...he still has to do the approaching part!

I used to have social anxiety myself and sometimes, it's brought about by bad experiences, other times, it's not. Regardless, it's still something you have push through.

 

Thanks for the info.

 

I read jenny_mcs's post again and notice she said something about him expecting any girl he dates to look like a porn star? Okay, I agree that is something he'll have to sort out but...

 

...from what you said, it just sounds as if he's shy. I fail to see how that is "crippling". I can relate. I don't approach women EVER. They show no interest in me; I show no interest in them. I honestly cannot be bothered with women. Back on the topic about LBS though, and again knowing little about him, is there anything contributing to his shyness from his past? Bullying etc?

 

EDIT

 

Sorry to ask these questions. I don't wish to form an opinion on his situation, and/or help him, if I know too little. I dare say you've spoken about this enough already.

[Fudgie]

I would say bullying and low self esteem issues...like feeling ugly and undesirable. That alone can make a person want to crawl into a hole.

 

We are doing our best to help him though.

[greywolf]

I'll try to fill you in:

 

LBS has crippling social anxiety and has yet to actually approach and talk to the women that he desires. He isn't really being "ignored" in the sense that he has approached them and they brushed him off...he still has to do the approaching part!

I used to have social anxiety myself and sometimes, it's brought about by bad experiences, other times, it's not. Regardless, it's still something you have push through.

 

In fact, I recall LBS saying that there have been many women interested in him in the past, but I'm not sure why it didn't work out.