Why women do NOT want to ask out men?

[MorphyGyps]

A girl bothered to flash a smile (forget even a convo starter) is already considered forward. A guy who can do everything except ask her out is still considered not having tried.

 

OK but seriously, how hard is it just to ask a girl out? You make it sound so complex. Just do it.

[ProtestTheHero]

Yeah, I see your conundrum, been there, done that, best of luck to you and your situation. But I still think the percent chances of getting a yes are far higher going the organic way compared to cold approaches. My sucess rate getting a yes to a date request is like 50%. I very much doubt I'd be anywhere near 50% using cold approaches.

 

Oh, I would never say the % would be high using cold approaches. You deal with tons of rejection, it just doesn't hurt at all. You are much more likely to get a yes when you get to know someone, it's just that the No's hurt more.

 

 

Was she touching you? That is flirting.

 

In all honesty I don't even remember. I'm sure she has, but she's very nice/open and doesn't have personal space issues, so she could touch me, her girl friend, and a stranger in the same way and not think twice about it. That's why it's hard to distinguish between friendly/interested in my case.

[GernBlanston]

When people give advice it is from their own perspective and experience.

 

Of course it is. It's still advice, though, which Miss Firecracker seems to be trying to dispute, here:

 

Well, I figured someone would try to make that point. Let me give you one example from the very first page of this thread.

 

No, waveseer isn't explicitly telling anyone in particular, "Don't ask men out." She is offering her opinion of the scenario in which a woman pursues a man. That's pretty much what advice is. If a woman is undecided on the matter and is looking to waveseer's sage opinion, what's she going to conclude?

 

Gimme a break.

She plainly said, In MY experience.

[Regeta]

I do wonder if men take a flip of the hair and a smile as flirting. That's just a girl thing, something they do with their female friends too, just because they are girls and have feminine traits and actions.

 

Some of my male friends think if a girl EXISTS around you- they're flirting.

A giggle, smile, or (god save us) a flip of the hair- that means they're super-flirting, lol.

 

To me, I'm paranoid pessimistic about flirting. I'm also often naive and oblivious.

 

So first I'd have to notice a girl's actions or attitude, which rarely happens in the first place.

But in the 10% chance I notice something, I have a very strong tendency to pass it off as nothing, a mere coincidence.

 

I'm the type of ditz that a girl could be massively flirting right infront of my face, and I wouldn't notice until she started touching me on the shoulder for the 2000th time, and even then I'd think she was just a social person and it doesnt have to do with me.

[karvala]

I'm the type of ditz that a girl could be massively flirting right infront of my face, and I wouldn't notice until she started touching me on the shoulder for the 2000th time, and even then I'd think she was just a social person and it doesnt have to do with me.

 

LOL, reminds me of one incident from my naive teenage days. I was due to go for a drink with a (very attractive!) girl who as far as I knew was just a friend of mine. Turned up at her house, and she answered the door in the classic little black number, complete with stockings (that I could visibly see were stockings!), and a glass of wine in her hand. Did a twirl and asked me what I thought. Offered me some wine, told me we could either go out or stay in and drink if I preferred. Then also told me that her parents were away that night, and I was welcome to stay. After all that, you know what? I STILL didn't realise that was a come-on. ](*,) I think back then my naivety/stupidity was on a quite epic scale. Anything short of a written invitation or a striptease in front of my eyes, and I was just clueless.

[Regeta]

OK but seriously, how hard is it just to ask a girl out? You make it sound so complex. Just do it.

 

It's not that simple to some of us.

 

Some men are afraid of being rejected.

 

Other men, like me, fear success. If I could walk up to a girl and KNOW she was 100% going to reject me, I could have a lot of fun, relaxation, and maybe even charm a few girls anyways.

 

But the idea of her actually saying yes, depending on my level of attraction to her, can make me nervous or even literally petrify me if I'm too attracted to her.

 

If I think the girl is going to reject me, I'm more relaxed.

If I think the girl is going to reject me- the more attractive she is, the more confident I am. I guess kindof like a "I can beat this!" type of competition that I find fun.

 

If I think I have a chance and the girl is going to say yes, I'm nervous.

If I think I have a REALLY good chance because I am so attracted to her (less to do with her attractiveness, more to do with being attracted to her bc she's "on my level" physically, or maybe it's a pheromone thing) then I'm petrified.

 

I am afraid of success.

I've been so used to being single, I can worry "How will my life change? Will I still have time for myself? Will I need alone time? What if I dont like her? I cant break her heart!!!!?!?!? *peppersprays self*"

 

Oh please oh please, will all the hot girls just reject me so I can be happy and confident? LoL.

[GernBlanston]

Some of my male friends think if a girl EXISTS around you- they're flirting.

A giggle, smile, or (god save us) a flip of the hair- that means they're super-flirting, lol.

 

To me, I'm paranoid pessimistic about flirting. I'm also often naive and oblivious.

 

So first I'd have to notice a girl's actions or attitude, which rarely happens in the first place.

But in the 10% chance I notice something, I have a very strong tendency to pass it off as nothing, a mere coincidence.

 

I'm the type of ditz that a girl could be massively flirting right infront of my face, and I wouldn't notice until she started touching me on the shoulder for the 2000th time, and even then I'd think she was just a social person and it doesnt have to do with me.

 

I don't think you're alone in having this perspective. I expect there are many men who feel this way, to varying degrees. How do you feel about Batya33 calling you unhealthy, unreasonable and abnormal?

[Regeta]

rofl!!!

 

Well to be honest in reply, if a girl opened the door in an outfit like that and offered me some wine, I'd skip the wine, close the door behind me, and she'd be a very happy women. LoL.

 

I'm naive, not impotent

LoL just kidding!!!

[Regeta]

I don't think you're alone in having this perspective. I expect there are many men who feel this way, to varying degrees. How do you feel about Batya33 calling you unhealthy, unreasonable and abnormal?

 

Well to be honest, Batya33 is probably right if he/she's calling me unreasonable and abnormal.

 

I am certainly abnormal.

 

Being Naive... or overly optimistic... or hyperactively happy... or mind-racingly contemplative...or talking so much and aggressively ignoring common social queues like keeping responses short, not sharing personal info, having a high need for love but a fear of success, etc.

 

Those are all very abnormal, often unreasonable, and arguably unhealthy.

 

 

I know I'm really weird in a lot of ways. Not that I think it, but I literally am. I have a lot of personality traits that fall in the 1% of humans range, which I'd think would put me in the 0.1% range since 1% A, 1% B, 1% C, 1% D all can really make me different.

 

Or maybe I just have ADHD and that explains EVERYTHING! Lmao... :splat:

[GernBlanston]

Well to be honest, Batya33 is probably right if he/she's calling me unreasonable and abnormal.

 

I am certainly abnormal.

Gotcha. I can relate.

[Odysseus]

Gotcha. I can relate.

 

Me too. If they only knew how weird I can be sometimes...but then again...maybe they are just as wacky right?

[Regeta]

Me too. If they only knew how weird I can be sometimes...but then again...maybe they are just as wacky right?

 

If there is anything I've learned in dating it's these two things...

 

1st) I am weird. Different. Abnormal. In the 1% category.

 

2nd) Although I am a freak, some of the girls out there are monsters. I look like a normal healthy shining angel compared to some of my ex-gf's emotional/mental unhealthiness. Hahahhahaa.

 

 

Like I told one of my crazy ex-gf's who was stalking me and threatening me...

 

"I may be messed up, but you're still a * * * * * ! [witch]"

[Honey Pumpkin]

I don't really understand this thread, or the latent hostility *shrugs*. There are a variety of answers, a variety of points, and no one answer.

 

I don't ask guys out, but I do make sure that the signs are there. I talk about a movie I want to see that happens to be playing, how i want to try out a new restaurant/cafe, how I'd like to see this band or that play or this exhibition etc. If the guy in question is too shy to take the initiative at that point, then he's probably not the right match for me in any case. I don't actually want someone that passive or timid. So I don't ask guys out, but I make it so easy for them to do it if they want, that kind of counts.

 

Don't really understand the premise of this thread. Or the thousands of threads bemoaning perceptions of the world, which ignores the answers and goes for generalisations instead. But I do sense the anger, and that makes me sad.

 

If this is a debate, fine. If it's genuinely wanting advice on how to find someone, then it's not terribly helpful. The only variable we can change is ourselves. That's it. For me, that means working on my confidence and self-esteem, rather than saying "why do men NOT want a woman with low confidence?" Do you see what I mean?

 

I just find this redundant, unless it's a genuine abstract debate.

[Siriana]

If you do not like this thread you are free to not post. I think that is better than getting upset at me and asking if I am planning to reprogram the whole female species.

 

What is wrong in having a discussion?

 

I am not upset.

I find the thread interesting.

And I am free to post as long as I want just as much as I can leave whenever I want. Thank you reminding me of that.

 

IMO Discussions are usually fruitless when an action is required. Now I know the purpose of the thread is just discussion. And that's fine. I assumed before that you are asking for extra input from girls to improve your dating prospects. But since it's not I will adjust to the formate of debate.

You do ask girls out? I assumed you hope they will ask you, but you don't do the asking?

 

So my opinion is , that if a guy is incapable of asking a girl out he is quite incompatible with me. I dislike it because it shows him as being overly shy and insecure to go for the things he wants. And hence I would be scared if I decided to pursue him that he would actually be with me even if I wasn't the best for him because of his fear he couldn't find someone better.

[sara-pezzini]

 

That's great that you met someone with potential - I never doubt that you can ask someone out who has potential - I just know of no long term relationships where the woman did more of the asking than the man in the early stages of dating especially (except one that was a story in a major newspaper a few years ago). It's pretty easy to date someone for a week- that's not an example of your approach being effective. Also I wonder if things have changed for people your age (according to the people I know in their early 20s, no, but I don't know that many to form any opinions or conclusions). Good luck with the new guy!

 

 

i asked my boyfriend out,did most of the asking and pursuing in the beginning and after 4 years we are still together!!!and talking aboutmoving in together!!!

i think it's so stupid that a man has to do the asking,all those stupid dating rules...

men can be interested and not have the courage to ask out a woman,my boyfriend was like that and he is not shy,just really really hurt in the past by every woman in his life (including his mother)so very carefull not to get hurt again,and major trust issues,so something like that can happen too...we worked together,so that was also difficult,but i fell in love,and being very shy and bullied in the past,and having zero experience with men,i still asked him out!!and am so happy i did that!

my opinion,if you feel it's worth it,just take the risk...

[Blue Spiral]

So my opinion is , that if a guy is incapable of asking a girl out he is quite incompatible with me. I dislike it because it shows him as being overly shy and insecure to go for the things he wants. And hence I would be scared if I decided to pursue him that he would actually be with me even if I wasn't the best for him because of his fear he couldn't find someone better.

 

Doesn't that work both ways?

 

Also, judging by the responses in this thread, it's clear that women use this as a "weeding out" method. If a guy isn't willing to ask her out, it means he's not worthy or compatible--once again coming back to the joyous "confidence" issue.

[GernBlanston]

Good for you, sara-pezzini! That's just the kind of story I like to hear.

 

Note that there are a number of posters on eNA who would have advised you to not get involved with a man like that in the first place (one with trust issues, etc.). They would have said that a man like that is not worth your time because he wasn't "emotionally available" or "available for dating". Of course, they would give their advice in terms of, "Well, in my experience...", so they can later pretend they weren't actually giving you advice in case someone called them on it.

 

Thank goodness you weren't given that kind of advice, or ignored such advice if it was given. I'm genuinely glad you're so happy in your relationship. Good stuff!

[grymoire]

Thanks for this post.

 

I started this thread in order to have a healthy debate/discussion. But some people are upset at me and think this thread is pointless and is filled with resentment. Some people think that I am planning to reprogram the entire female species and some think that I am demanding the traditions to change. Nope. That is not the point.

 

I was noticing lot of women coming here to ENA wondering if they should ask out the guy they are crushing on being advised against it. They were also being told that it will most likely fail. This really made me curious and I felt like starting this thread.

 

In this thread we have had lot of different and interesting inputs. And I hope that it can help people, both men and women, with their dating life.

[Honey Pumpkin]

But Grymoire, interestingly, the one woman that asked you out, you turned down! Despite saying this is what you want more than anything. That's tongue in cheek, but just to point that out.

 

I think that people will ask for advice on this site in the same vein, and they will get advice. I'm pretty sure that my advice will carry on being much the same, as will many others, because that's myexperience. And your experience seems to be the same, ironically...

 

I maintain the only thing you can work on and change is yourself. There are similar threads all the time: do men fancy fat women? Generally no - and whilst it's hard to hear these generalisations, that doesn't mean much on an indvidual level.

[Day_Walker]

I dislike it because it shows him as being overly shy and insecure to go for the things he wants. And hence I would be scared if I decided to pursue him that he would actually be with me even if I wasn't the best for him because of his fear he couldn't find someone better.

 

 

I dont get the logical leap that is made by the last sentence. I think that a person can just settle for that person regardless of who initiated the relationship they are in, I dont think it would matter which person asked out the other.

 

I could ask a girl out knowing that she is a safe play, and settle for her because I was too insecure to think that I could get something better.

 

I understand that you think if you ask a guy out, and down the road you find out that he is just settling for you then you would be upset. There is a lot of time for you to figure out that fact and weed him out.

[grymoire]

But Grymoire, interestingly, the one woman that asked you out, you turned down! Despite saying this is what you want more than anything. That's tongue in cheek, but just to point that out.

 

Yes, I did turn down the one woman that asked me out this year. The reason I turned her down is NOT because she asked me out. The reason is because we live too far away from each other. Starting something would not be fair for either of us.

 

And I am not saying that this is what I want. I am just saying that things would be good if women can also ask out men a tad more. I am just guessing that it will make life easier for men and women in general.

[penelope13]

I think the opening question has been answered (why some women don't ask out a man); the more important question is how to help those who are not (regardless of gender): confident, extrovert, risk takers when it comes to dating. What will their best strategy be to find a partner for a potentially serious relationship.

 

When giving advice to someone, while it has its merit, I don't think it's always useful to look at each situation from my personal perspective and my personal history. Sure if I dated in the 60s I certainly had to follow the dating rules of that specific era and of course those strategies then were the right ones. However, if I want to give advice to someone who is dating now (regardless of the age), I have to consider that things are not as black and white anymore and many people employ many different strategies.

 

To give advice to anybody you need to know much more about them as individuals, because people do not fall into 2 categories (men/ women) behaviorally anymore. Some people like to follow more traditional approaches, some don't. just because one particular approach worked for me, does not mean my approach will work for every other women, or even most of them, thus I can't advise everyone to follow what I did/do.

 

I believe (and am very open to discussing this), for a shy person or someone with low selfesteem (again regardless of gender), it is very hard when it comes to dating. Usually for them, both asking and being asked can be difficult. A shy person is often incapable of signaling their intentions to another person, thus waiting to be asked is probably not a very efficient method to finding a date, since it requires interest from a person that wants to approach you despite you not sending any "i might be interested in you" signals.

 

When it comes to dating, we all have to accept that for most people it is a numbers game, i.e. you have to be aware that most often you will be either turned down immediately or within a few dates.

 

Waiting for being asked is also not a sure recipe to ensure that the other party is really serious about you. You can never know if you are the only person that has been asked out.

 

If you choose to go the route of the cold-approach, increasing the frequency and actively asking out will increase your chances significantly. Sure you will get a lot of rejections, but in the end you are only looking for ONE person. It doesn't matter how many people said no in the end, once you have found the right one.

 

It is hardly imaginable that after you have asked someone out and things will not turn into a serious relationship it will be solely due to the fact that you were the one doing the asking - if someone is so strict in their dating rules, they wouldn't have agreed to the first date anyway.

 

As in respect to hardwiring of behaviors in our biology: although there is evidence that behavior is influenced by genetics, mating rituals of homo sapiens is predominantly influenced by cultural/ societal/ educational/ personality factors. Although we share a number of genes and brain structures with the animal kingdom, as humans we have some brain regions/ structures that allow us to decide between different strategies, i.e. their is a decision making process involved that most animals do not have as an option.

 

The brain, especially the human brain is a remarkably flexible organ. With enough motivation and dedication, most circuits can be rewired, behaviors unlearned and replaced by others. Sadly (at least IMHO), most people do not chose to invest the necessary energy to do so.

[grymoire]

^^ Great post Pen.

[Batya33]

That's great that it worked out for you - I have no doubt there are exceptons. I do know for me that someone with such major trust issues and anxiety that he couldn't ask me to get lunch some time probably wouldn't be in the right place to have a long term relationship with me - friends, sure, why not, but a serious relationship - likely not. I don't see asking someone out for lunch or coffee as a big deal. Getting seriously involved is more sgnificant and I too am a fan of taking things slowly n the beginning, trust issues or otherwise. Sounds like you two are a great match.

 

I agree that the dating rules are pretty stupid. Usually I am asked for advice as to what strategy works best, all things being equal, to find a long term relationship - not whether the dating rules are stupid, for which I'd have a different answer and analysis.

[tiredofvampires]

Grym, for the record, I would never counsel a girlfriend (younger or same age as me) NOT to ask a man out. I would say more power to her if she does, because in the end -- and this is true for both sexes -- a rejection is only a rejection by that ONE person. I believe that the problem only arises with rejection because rejection (for the person who is not confident on some fundamental level) represents a totalizing belief about oneself and others. It's understandable that the more you are rejected, the more you start to have a generalized belief, but the truth is that each situation is slightly different, each man (or woman, in your case) you are interested in is different and wants different things, and so you really do get a clean crack at it each time. It just doesn't feel like that, but that's a state of mind, not facts on the ground.

 

I think true confidence is when you are able to present yourself in any given situation -- beit a naturally evolving one, or a spur-of-the-moment one -- and realize that this is "just one person" and it doesn't change who you are. Because eventually, in a relationship, these things are going to present themselves anyway. Rejection is not just for the beginning stages. It's for the duration of the entire relationship (if one happens), so being accepted initially does not at all guarantee that you won't invest and then get burnt. In fact, as long as anyone successfully enters upon a fledgling relationship, the risk is inevitable, and becomes moreso with each passing day that you get closer. So it's really immaterial how soon that all begins. (Which is why I personally prefer to start letting myself be known sooner rather than later.)

 

So I would encourage ANYONE to try, with the idea, what do I have to lose? Whether male or female. I think that if a man is going to reject a woman simply because she asked, then he's as stuck in rigid, fixed notion about gender roles as much as I'd be to think of it as a man's job and tell other women to think that way. If a guy didn't like that I asked, phooey on him.

 

Having said that, waveseer said some things I have experienced. I am really trying hard to remember when I've ever done the asking, and truth be told, I can't tell you I recall doing that ever, though I have been forward enough to drop so many very, very obvious "hints", that they could not be interpreted any other way than, "Please just ask me right now." I HAVE found, as waveseer pointed out, that the more I had to pull teeth, the more passive the man on the actual dates or hanging out. I also had to pull teeth about where he wanted to go (and usually he had "no preference"), I had to pull teeth about when we'd see eachother again, I had to pull teeth about follow-up calling...and just generally got the feeling either he just wasn't that into me, or he was not the type of person I could click with anyway, for all this lack of grabbing the bull by the horns. This is not enough in and of itself to discourage me from asking someone out, but it's just been one not-so-pleasant experience I've had.

 

Having said all this, I have pretty much fallen into the traditional role of putting out the vibes, and then hoping the man will actually ask. Not so much I think for the generational thing (though I could be wrong) and certainly not because I have some idea of propriety in my mind, but because I have some insecurities of my own, and feel it's presumptuous of me to assume that far. (And since I'm this way, you can guarantee other women can be this way, too.) So it's hard to say "women this, women that" in any general way. SOME women (such as myself) are more shy themselves than others, when it comes to actually initiating an explicit proposition. Some are fearful of rejection as well, so if you put two shy or rejection-fearful people together, what you get is a stalemate and a bunch of mixed messages at best.

 

It really depends on the personalities of the parties involved, which is highly individual, and could very well determine the outcome. It's a unique dance each time.

 

To give a real-life recent example of my own, there's an attractive guy I've been in mixed company with twice (on two occasions widely spaced apart.) I was told ahead of time by people who though we'd hit it off that he can be shy (why, I don't know -- he's got everything perfect on paper). We were seated next to eachother at dinner the first time, and I was making monumental efforts to be both laid back and yet inquisitive in the right balance, to put him at ease but also show I was interested. I got the very distinct feeling with his body language and speech that while he was well-spoken, he was also nervous (which to me actually at first was an encouraging sign, ha, because if he's digging me, he'll be nervous a bit if he's the shy type.) So at one point, he mentioned he liked a certain neighborhood and I told him about a show I go and see there every month, and that he'd really enjoy it. (hint, hint!!!) I even threw in, "lemme know if you ever wanna go." (boiling, boiling!!!) He just kind of nodded and said, "Sounds good." To ME, that's about as close as I can comfortably get to putting it out there that I want a date, and that he should ask for my number, but when he said what he did instead, with no sign of picking up the ball with reciprocal interest, I figured there's no point in my being any MORE aggressive than that. That's writing on the wall that he just isn't interested. Case closed.

 

The next time I saw him, he was much more lively and seeming comfortable. I felt like we were much more in sync with our vibe, and the conversation flowed more easily, with him coming out of some nervous straitjacket a bit. We were not flirting with touching or physical anything (even though I AM a touchy-feely type -- I didn't want to freak him out you see, so I was trying to be sensitive to his boundaries), but I'm positive my look and attentive body language was doing the work for me. I felt he was at ease, and seeking out banter with me, so I started to feel hopeful.

 

At the end of the evening, everyone was saying goodbye and hugging everyone bye, I mean full-on HUGS. And I hugged everyone, and noticed he hugged everyone else, but then when I turned to him, we both kind of froze like 2 freakin deer in the headlights and I said, "Hey!" with open arms. And he just stood there, mimicking that open arms gesture, and mirrored my "Hey!" At that moment, I just felt the same thing as about the asking for a date: that how am I to know that he really likes me enough? I don't want to be presumptuous. SHOW ME YOU LIKE ME ENOUGH, I'M JUST NOT CONVINCED is how I felt. Was I being a woose? Probably. Yeah. I kicked myself afterwards for about 24 hours about how stupid I was. I should have just given him a "friendship" hug instead of standing there like someone had just put me on "pause", but it was the same deal: I just didn't want to make assumptions. So we were the only 2 people who didn't hug eachother that evening. Lol. Can you spell A-W-K-W-A-R-D??

 

When I told a friend about this afterwards, I said, "I felt like there was some weird tension or something" and she said, "that's because there was!"

 

My point being with all of this is that sometimes a woman is waiting for cues because of her own lack of faith that a guy is "really that into her", and combined with the general protocol of men asking women out, it's easy to assume that if he doesn't, I'm just barking up the wrong tree and embarrassing myself to push harder. If you spoonfeed it to him and he's still not stepping forward, then I'm up against my own rejection projections.

 

Just my 20 bucks.