In love with a Muslim man..

[BellaDonna]

Islam is not at all friendly to women. You are essentially property of the man, subserviant to his wishes and desires. Covering your whole body and sometimes face except for the eyes so as not to entice men...

 

I mean, cmon.

 

That is not an accurate description of all Muslims.

 

Let's not stereotype and turn this into a religious debate or anything about which religion is right or wrong- otherwise the thread will have to be closed.

 

To the OP- my general advice about your relationship is this:

 

He is waiting for me to change

 

That is a very dangerous concept. If he is marrying you on the CONDITION that you change and is already not considering YOUR views as a parent and how you would raise your future children, RUN.

 

Anyone who wants to pressure you to change who you are to conform to their opinions and the opinions of their family will only be trouble.

 

I have seen plenty of couples have differing religious backgrounds and make it work.

 

This is how:

 

*they respect one another's views

 

*they have aspects of both religions integrated into their marriage ceremony

 

*They introduce both religions to their children.

 

So far your relationship sounds very one-sided in that he is expecting you to totally abandon an important aspect of your identity as a condition to marry him.

 

It speaks volumes about his expectations for the marriage, in general. His word is the last word, in his mind. -VERY dangerous.

[hexaemeron]

BD, I certainly don't want to stereotype, but if we're talking about devout muslims, and from the OPs description, that term seems to qualify, these are attitudes that either are or will be foisted upon her.

 

Of course, all belief structures have followers on a spectrum of how devout their belief is. There are moderates and orthodox for every system of belief. But from what she's saying of his attitudes, moderate doesn't seem to be the case.

 

It's not wrong to speak in educated and reasonable fact given the information above. I'm not saying Islam is bad (or good) because of its tenets, just as I wouldn't say the same for any other religion.

 

But, it is what it is.

[BellaDonna]

BD, I certainly don't want to stereotype, but if we're talking about devout muslims, and from the OPs description, that term seems to qualify, these are attitudes that either are or will be foisted upon her.

 

I don't think it does. In her post she stated:

 

 

Well, he is not that strict a Muslim, practicing just basic things like 1 week praying and Ramadan, and i won't have to cover.. But still..

 

 

She already made it clear she would not have to cover her face or body.

[hexaemeron]

I don't think it does. In her post she stated:

 

 

 

She already made it clear she would not have to cover her face or body.

 

Sure, now. But then he wasn't possessive and trying to think for her before they got engaged and now he is. Who's to say that a year, two, five down the line he won't shift gears again and insist.

 

If you give an inch, it's reasonable to assume you're setting a standard of "compromise" that will end up meaning you give a mile.

[McLovin oo7]

Puhh, I just wonder what is the percentage of Western women who managed to work out a successful marriage with muslims?..

 

And I wonder, if I break up with my fiance, will I manage to get over it somehow by myself or I will have to hire a psychotherapist to help me survive..

 

Leaving Him, would feel like I'm cutting a big peace off my life, I will end up on the edge of emotional abyss, I feel this is even harder than breaking up with him..

Although i don't think i am a weak woman...

 

I don’t know the percentage but I have a close friend who is Muslim. Her dad is Muslim and her mom converted to Islam before marriage. They have been married for over 30 years and my friend is 26.

 

They force her to go to Mosque two three times a week and if she somehow managed to escape, people from her own community ask her why she did not come. It happened twice in front of me. She cant drink, can’t wear what she wants to wear, basically, she lived in Canada but doesn’t enjoy freedom of our society. She is a prisoner in her own home.

 

I personally am against religious conversion since it requires one to change and I don’t think you should change so that he or his family can accept you.

 

Leaving him might be very difficult for some months, may be a year but it would be the best thing to do for long run.

 

Think about it – do you wanna change yourself to please someone, especially when that change does not better your life in any way and you don’t want this change?

[BellaDonna]

Think about it – do you wanna change yourself to please someone, especially when that change does not better your life in any way and you don’t want this change?

 

That summarizes it very well.

[Capricorn3]

Think about it – do you wanna change yourself to please someone, especially when that change does not better your life in any way and you don’t want this change?

This has to be the best wake-up call in this entire thread. Excellent post McLovin!

 

OP: please think about the above very carefully. You owe it to yourself and YOUR future to make sure your eyes are wide open here. Whatever you do, do NOT allow yourself to be manipulated into doing what you don't want to, or don't believe in.

[Janne]

I know guys.. Thank you all for concern! I was really surprized to see so many sympathizing comments to my post!

Well, in fact I understand it all and can look at this situation I am into, reasonably (with my brain), but my heart still asks that maybe there's still a small tiny chance that we could work it our somehow.. From the start of our relationship I was showing interest in Islam and we had a lot of talks about his religion, and i was finding some answers it gave to be quite reasonable.. But did it make him think in a way, that this meant I would convert in Islam later on??..

I decided to talk to my fiance openly once again about everything and tell him how I feel about this. That after a long time of thorough thinking I realized that I am not ready to take his religion, although I never actually said 'yes'..

I know he always loved me and now he is very much afraid to lose me too, but maybe he really misunderstood me from te start?

Or he is trying to use now some sort of manipulation telling me "Oh you've always been interested in Islam and from the way you sounded I understood you were not 100% content being in Christian religion"... "So why do you change ur mind now"... etc etc

I feel I'm in some kind of emotional trap, but who is really being unreasonable here : me or him?

[karvala]

I feel I'm in some kind of emotional trap, but who is really being unreasonable here : me or him?

 

Not you. Whether or not it's him is a question of how you interpret the imperative of religious conversion, so I won't comment on that, but certainly you are not being unreasonable in objecting to a conversion that do not want, would not be genuine (and would he really want a fake conversion?), and would not benefit you.

 

I suspect it's also the first step in an increasing marginalisation of your views and rights, and the "my family won't accept anything else" excuse will start to be used for other things later on as well. You're in a relationship with him, not his family.

[Ms Darcy]

I start to think now that some Muslim Arab guys, liberal and very affectionate on the surface, in fact are big emotional manipulators.. They don't do it on purpose, but they just know exactly what buttons to push with girls to make them fall head over hills in love, and then the new Episode of 'rules and demands' starts..

First they are soo loving, caring, giving, supportive.. then, they expect of you to 'pay back', by giving away ur beliefs, ur attitudes, and eventually, ur personality...

(All this is going on with them on a subconscious level though...)

 

Yes, they should really never be looking for brides outside of their religious domain!

 

I hear what you are saying dear, and I understand your pain and frustration. One idea to consider is that perhaps he was not "intentionally" manipulating you but that this is a sign of a cultural difference. In some cultures, it is customary for men to be kind, sweet, and very deferntial to their prospective brides during courtship. Once the lady is "won", then they can exert increasing control over their prize as they prepare to head the marriage household.

 

Really, this gives you a window into what married life will become - a situation where he makes decisions on your behalf. Is that the life you want?

[dragon111]

I have some extensive experience with muslim people in relationships with non-muslim people, and in many ways it can be quite accurate to say that there is no real thing as a non-serious muslim. I mean sure especially in western culture muslims do not follow what they preach, many female muslims wear tight clothing and will be out as late as 9.00pm. Some will even drink alcohol and get their hair cut at hairdressers rather than at home by their mother. This however does not compromise how strongly controlled they are by religious ideology and more importantly their families. Males in Islam have more to gain from the religion than females both personally and very much financially. They certainly have alot more free choice and wiggle room. Many parents of muslim children would honestly rather see their children die than move away from Islam- moving into a life of damnation, and by doing such they feel that they will be punished in death too, so will use all the emotional blackmail, manipulation and threats that they know to try to keep their children following Allah and attending Mosques if appropriate. It is very true that if you are not a muslim they see you as an infidel, as being less. The only way a non-muslim man can be with a muslim woman is if the family disowns the woman or you convert. Now remember it doesn't matter what your boyfriends opinion and strictness on religion is, in his culture it is more to do with his parents strictness to religion- and often even if they dont follow it strictly it is to do with their community and being shunned in the community. The only way you can marry your boyfriend is if you convert or he becomes disowned. He will probably not want to lose his family and community or the financial benefits he gets as a male in a muslim family. If you convert you must be prepared to follow all fo their rules, even if he doesn't imply it right now. If you convert and do not do what his family tells you to you will be in trouble. Also remember this, after marriage it is quite common practice to move back to the country of origin, at least for a number of years, and there you will be subject to Sharia law if you do not comply- punishments such as being whipped etc.

[Janne]

Well, we've reached quite a new progress yesterday..

I talked to my fiance once again about this whole religious issue, and that I was seriously considering conveting to Islam for him already, and I was almost ready to do it, but somehow inside me that just didn't feel right.. And if he can't make a compromise and accept me as I am, he is free to leave me, cause I said I wished him all the best and a family he always wanted.

I was almost sure we would breakup after this, wishing each other all the best.. But I was shocked in surprise to hear him saying "Well, yes it's not right that you convert not of your own will and probably you shouldn't convert in this mood, although I thought by now you would be convinced already... So what do you want? You want us to marry and you stay a Christian?" And I said yes, cause like this I will feel more peace inside, and then maybe with time I will learn more about Islam and convert in future.. maybe.. And he agreed!.. Although he said we must keep it in secret and all his family must think I converted, and then when we have kids, and if I am not converted yet by then, kids shouldn't know that their mom is still a Christian, even if I am more relaxed to stay Christian, our children must also think that I am a Muslim..

 

Well, yesterday when we talked I was so overwhelmed with his sudden 'compromise' and I almost flew from happiness. It just felt like the best solution for us.

Though today in the light of the new day, this new cool 'compromise' didn't feel like that great thing anymore.. Why should I hide being a Christian, like it's some shameful desease that I must keep in secret, and be viewed as infidel in my own house...

Although my fiance demonstrated the miracles of compromising the other day, I still have this gnowing gut feeling that walking our separate ways from now on is inavitable for us...

[bertdru]

Well, yesterday when we talked I was so overwhelmed with his sudden 'compromise' and I almost flew from happiness. It just felt like the best solution for us.

Though today in the light of the new day, this new cool 'compromise' didn't feel like that great thing anymore.. Why should I hide being a Christian, like it's some shameful desease that I must keep in secret, and be viewed as infidel in my own house...

Although my fiance demonstrated the miracles of compromising the other day, I still have this gnowing gut feeling that walking our separate ways from now on is inavitable for us...

 

I don't know how Muslims are in your country but in my country they are quite strict about the conversion thing. So eventually they try to convert the bride/groom into their religion.

 

You have to decide if this is the kind of life you want to lead. You have to find a man who would accept for who you are and stand up for you. Not a guy who is in fear of his family and "tradition". Having grown up in my country, I am now sick of the word "tradition".

 

Sorry, this relationship isn't working and you need to get out. Get out while you can otherwise you might be stuck in a terrible position if you get married to him.

[Janne]

Having grown up in my country, I am now sick of the word "tradition".

 

Yes i somewhat also shiver now when hearing words 'traditions' and 'in my culture u have to'... LOL ;(

 

My fiance is from Lebanon. What country are u coming from, Bertdru? just curious

[Buttterfly]

Nope nopenope it doesnt work.... it just doesnt.. The fact that he requested you to do that ( wellit's not only ugly and sly), but it proves it's nbot gonna work. Why hasnt he mentionned that on your 5th date or smth?

I was in a LTR with a muslim man, religious matters never came to focus, infact he wasntpracticing at all, drinking, smoking, athough his family failry religious but seemed relaxed abt me. Only that when we got engaged, he was susrpised i would not convert, 'for the sake of our future children', and 'for our love'. Yeah right...

If these boys even have the rudeness to actually ask you these questions, especially very late int he relationship, how can you trust to have a happy life with them unless you submit tothem? it's really dodgy and complicated...

I eventually bursted in front of his family, his mum and dad sitting there with their half smoked cigarettes and can of lager , i told them i'm more muslim tham all of them since

1. i do not drink alcohol

2. although i am christian born i read about islam and other religions out of self-interest, respect and curiosity, i dont want to die an ignorant

3.i don't lie and deceive people

4. i accept and respect all thepeople i meet in my life and never impose my beliefs on them

 

hah lol they didnt say anything to that.

you will not win.

not even the muslim girls or boys who want to break out from that dodgy tradition won't win.

[AKittyGoesMoo]

After reading through this entire thread, the thing that keeps sticking out to me the most is that you are not equals. You are not equals in any way, shape, or form. Regardless of the topic, be it religion, politics, or ethics, inequality is an extremely dangerous way to start any relationship on a lifelong path. Views can be different, but only if they're equal.

 

You view him as your equal, but he does not view you as his equal. Mismatched perceptions of this nature cannot be accepted, nor can they be overcome. This is the inherent nature of your relationship with him and it's neither healthy nor good. He loves you, you love him, but he will never see you as his equal.

 

Why don't you ask him straight out if he views you as his equal? If the answer is no? Run.

[bertdru]

Yes i somewhat also shiver now when hearing words 'traditions' and 'in my culture u have to'... LOL ;(

 

My fiance is from Lebanon. What country are u coming from, Bertdru? just curious

 

I am from India. As I said, you have to think objectively and not be blinded by your love of him. Marriage is not a joke.

[BellaDonna]

maybe with time I will learn more about Islam and convert in future.. maybe.. And he agreed!.. Although he said we must keep it in secret and all his family must think I converted, and then when we have kids, and if I am not converted yet by then, kids shouldn't know that their mom is still a Christian, even if I am more relaxed to stay Christian, our children must also think that I am a Muslim..

 

That doesn't sound like "compromise" to me. It sounds like you being considered (by him) as immoral and shameful for remaining Christian, and having to hide it from his family and still confrom to whatever he or they want you to do. The fact that he thinks there is only one way to raise children is a very bad sign. He is already telling you that he expects to have the last word, and your parenting views do not count at all.

 

You'd have to be a closet Christian. That is ridiculous. I am glad that you realized how unfair it is. Follow your gut:

 

this new cool 'compromise' didn't feel like that great thing anymore.. Why should I hide being a Christian, like it's some shameful desease that I must keep in secret, and be viewed as infidel in my own house...

Although my fiance demonstrated the miracles of compromising the other day, I still have this gnowing gut feeling that walking our separate ways from now on is inavitable for us...

 

[karvala]

It's nice that you saw a ray of light, but as you've also seen, his "compromise" is completely unworkable. Any compromise that involves deceiving your children should be rejected out of hand, and what kind of father would even suggest it?

[Janne]

People I feel I won't cope after a breakup, this pain feels unbearable..

Gosh, what is the most workable way to manage it all and probably stay alive after I break up?..

[noneStar]

Unfortunately, a lot of what you have written is true. There is a strong pressure to conform in many muslim households. I think this stems from the middle eastern tribal culture from which Islam like Judaism and Christianity was birthed from, and not necessarily Islam itself. In these tribal cultures, collectivism is valued and given precedence over individualism. But before judging these cultures too harshly, westerners should consider the fact that it wasn't so long ago when they were similar.

 

I've thought about this issue a lot as I'm the first person in my entire lineage to have been and raised in western society, away from our very traditional village culture in Pakistan, where it is even a scandal for marriage to occur between different castes to this day (but that is lessening) or different villages. Fortunately, I have a father that is very open minded and tolerant, even as a believing/practicing Muslim and we've been able to have open discussions on the issue. We both agree that one of the biggest problems in our cultures back home and here is this pressure to conform, to believe in Islam no matter what, to not question, to adhere to rigid traditions without thinking, lack of choice (and of course, it's worse for women but it's not easy on men either!). That is repression....But even though I am not a believer, I do believe that Islamic culture can reform/progress and live out a verse from the quran which clearly states:

 

"There is no compulsion in religion"

 

But like has been said, unfortunately that is not the reality in many muslim cultures. I hope in time, it will change like it has for western societies and we embrace freedom and individual choice. Muslims should not be scared of it, personally, I think it's more in line with the core of Islamic values than this need to bully people to conform.

 

That said, I would encourage the original poster to not allow herself to be manipulated/pressured into doing anything she is uncomfortable with, and if her "man" cannot accept it, then she should move on. Yes, it will hurt but it will hurt more to live a lie. Nobody is worth that. You can cope and you can move on.

 

Good luck.

[annie24]

I haven't read this thread in its entirety yet. but i have a friend who recently married a man of another faith. before they were engaged, they discussed, for several years, how to raise the children, which services to go to, how to celebrate holidays, etc..... once they came upon a mutual agreement, they got engaged. i would put the engagement and wedding on hold while you two sort of these issues. for as long as it takes or you decide to walk away.

[UptownGuy]

until the official engagement, when my Lebanese 'prince' suddenly turned into a more possessive type.. He suddenly implemented a subject of religion as # 1 item on our agenda list.. And asked me if i was ready to convert to Islam yet?

I said I wasn't, and not sure that i will want to, and I didn't feel great to be pushed on this matter.. I am not that religious though but still...

Then he said that if i don't take Islam, we will probably not be able to get married, coz his family will never accept this and he also wanted to raise kids in Islam.

?...

 

Sorry, but if you continue this relationship I can only see disaster ahead for you and for your future children. First of all, as you say, the moment things became "official" between the two of you, he changed and started to become more religious. This is a huge RED FLAG. Do not ignore it. If you do, it is at your own peril. The situation will only get worse. Once you are married, you will have no recourse, but to follow his will. I don't know how things are in your country, but in some countries, the Muslim laws will supercede those of the country itself. I have seen at least two of my non-Muslim friends get married to Muslim guys. Both of them have ended in disaster. As you have said, initially the men were very western in their views, but the moment they were married, the guys became completely the opposite and started to enforce their views on their wives. And in those cases, it was not only the guys, but his family as well who were there to make sure the girls followed a proper "islamic way of life". It will be best for you and him to end it while you can. He will be much happier with a Muslim girl who will be more willing to adapt to his demands.

[Janne]

It will be best for you and him to end it while you can. He will be much happier with a Muslim girl who will be more willing to adapt to his demands.

 

Amen to this!

 

I already made up my mind to break up and end this relationship in a friendly way... Because he will be much happier with a Muslim girl from his culture and I wish him all the best.

The funny thing is that after all our talks and argues he still didn't understand what was my problem and why I had such the difficulty to accept what he was saying and teaching me to be.. Although the "old" him used to perfectly understand me, what I am and admired just who I am..

This whole thing is heartbreaking and I feel I can already sit down to write a book or something, on the subject of "Loving an Arab"..

Though I believe he also has his story and if he had to write his book, it'd be called "Always think twice with your Head, before you fall in love with a Western girl"..

[annie24]

hi - i'm sorry to hear of your breakup, but it sounds like this is the best decision in the long run. good luck to you.