Relationship With X

[hopingforbettr]

Yup my ex even called me to come give her a ride after being in a car wreck said her Mr. Wonderful was too far away and she would have to wait an hour. I asked if she was ok, she said yes. I said know what we are divorced you wanted other guys well call someone who really cares. This happened within days after she files for BK on a bunch of credit cards she put my name on that I knew nothing about.

 

That was my last straw and I have enforced no contact every since. She wanted me to take care of all her problems and have icing on the side. I felt sooo much better then too.

 

They will string you along as long as possible as the safety net.

[nick66]

Thanks Lost, you get it. I'm not sure why I even bother replying back to waffle, as she will never get it and really doesn't belong in this thread. I will now do what I said I would do earlier, which is to place her on ignore.

[waffle]

Fine. I'm on your side here, Nick, but "support" doesn't always come in the form of being told only the things that you want to hear.

[Jeffbobo]

Hey all. Just catching up on the coolest thread on this forum.

 

Nick,

When you're in the thick of it, things can get clouded. You're still vested on some level, still maintain intimate contact and are allowing it. I know you care about your ex as she is the mother to your children, I get that. But beyond that and being the best father you can be, you owe her nothing. My ex is not even in my thoughts anymore. Not even part of any equation. Divorce means she has no right to use you as an emotional tampon. I know and fully understand because after 3 years, I still hear this crap and yeah, I've made a decision not to let it play on me and it doesn't anymore. Initially this behavior was in person, then by phone, then text and now by email. As far as I'm concerned, she can find another victum to vent her crap to. And there are plenty of unsuspecting victims out there, It just ain't gonna be me! If you truly *want* to move on, listen to what others are saying. I honestly believe that people need a good long period of no or minimal contact, to be able to heal, move on and become whole again before entertaining the idea of friends with their ex. Go through the process, much like going through the process of the death of a loved one. Doing this will be good for both of you and to do otherwise will just prolong this process for both of you. If you feel you've moved on, then have compassion for her and allow her to by cutting contact. Also, waffle is really saying the same things as everyone else. She *is* trying to help. Though her situation may be a little different, I'd suggest opening up to listen to at least some of what she says. Learn from her experience.

All,

We are all here for the same reason, our marriages ended up where they did and every one of us contributed to its demise in some fashion. Ok, so you didn't cheat, weren't physically abusive or didn't have addiction issues. Introspection... So what was it? What are the things that contributed to our divorces? I'm interested in understanding, learning and focusing on that so that next time, I will get it right. All of you, even waffle help me reach my goal and I'm grateful to each of you. To me, this thread is about dealing with your ex. Strategies in dealing with your ex so that the umbilacle cord is completely severed in every way possible so that you can move on effectively. All of us have one shot at life. There are no do overs, only learning and moving forward.

[benga]

Great piece Jeff thanks for sharing....

 

Jeff - you asked what the contributing factors to the demise of my marriage was. I can recall quite a few actually, and a sequence of events that led to our separation.... But the fundamental/underlying issue on everything that eventually played out was "COMMUNICATION". When communication dies, everything in the relationship dies.. Working really hard on that one at the moment. I am much more informed and wiser today than I was 7 years ago, and all these pieces are actually helping me have a better relationship with my wife....

[benga]

Waffle - great advise.. thanks for sharing your perspectives. Never asked you to go anywhere All I had said was that perhaps your situation was not the same as many on this thread.. Keep chiming in.. appreciate that..

[waffle]

. . . every one of us contributed to its demise in some fashion. Ok, so you didn't cheat, weren't physically abusive or didn't have addiction issues. Introspection... So what was it? What are the things that contributed to our divorces? I'm interested in understanding, learning and focusing on that so that next time, I will get it right.

 

. . . you asked what the contributing factors to the demise of my marriage was. I can recall quite a few actually....

 

I just want to go on record as saying it's a little different when you're in an abusive marriage. My marriage ended because, after talking at length with a select few friends and acquaintances for several years, I finally got the courage (and the resources) to file for divorce. I felt like such a failure, but not for the reasons you'd think. All those years I had successfully pretended everything was fine. I had everyone convinced that I was being treated well, because (in my mind) quality women are loved and treated well. Substandard women are mistreated. Besides, I was tough. He couldn't hurt me. But denial is a wonderful thing . . . it was sort of an escape, a normalizer, to join in with the other women at work, etc. who talked about "my husband this" and "my husband that." The ones who had REAL marriages. I wanted to be one of them. And when I pretended to be, I was. I was absolutely convinced it was a reflection on me, and there must be something wrong with a woman who is mistreated in a marriage, yet stays, so that wasn't my case, obviously. But the realist in me saw what happened when no one else was around . . . but weak women give up. I was too good for that. I was strong, and he couldn't break me. As the years ticked by, the more invested I became. Why quit now? Then one day I confided in a complete stranger. The bare truth, not the prettied-up version I gave a close friend because I was too embarrassed to admit I had accepted this as my life. And after a series of conversations with this person over the period of a year, I was asked, "do you have the courage to save your own life?" and I scoffed at the drama. But that's honestly what it came down to, because I know in my heart I couldn't have lasted another year. My stranger-turned-friend was going on a trip in late fall of 2012, for about three weeks, and I said, "don't be surprised if I've filed for divorce by the time you return." I was told, "don't get ahead of yourself, you're still a ways from that." Well, never underestimate Waffle. Divorce was filed and xH had been served (and he was LIVID!!) by the time they returned. I had had this internal sense, ever since I was in my very early 40s, that something big would happen in my life when I was 47. I ended up filing for divorce exactly one day before I reached that age.

[benga]

Waffle - thanks for sharing... Interesting points mentioned by you... Instead of talking with a select few friends, did you not try speaking with your husband about what you wanted your marriage to be like (not look like from the outside). Communication and mutual problem solving is really everything in my mind... when these die, everything dies...I dont recall ever seeing from your earlier posts on this thread - what were some of the qualities of your exH that got you attracted to him and subsequently married in the first place?

 

When my wife was unhappy she didnt speak up, and expected to me understand what she was thinking via telepathy. Her ability to communicate was pathetic, my ability to get her to communicate became pathetic.. She kept quiet and allowed resentment to fester, and I assumed because she was saying nothing, everything is fine. She wasnt getting what she needed from me, however - i didnt know what she wanted, because she said nothing.. She wanted her marriage to be different, but didnt tell me what she wanted it to be like. I am pretty sure, had she been vocal and communicated, I would have done whatever I could to give her what she wanted. Later did we realize that this was the reason why our relationship strained so badly.. It took a skilled counsellor to help us understand what we were doing incorrectly and hopefully has shown us the right path.. Resentment builds the self defence mechanism walls - disaster for an intimate relationship!!

 

So my question to you is, why didnt you speak up before you had the courage to walk away?

[waffle]

Let me be clear that the FIRST thing I did was talk to him. Now, he was always very anti-communication, by his own admission. I remember several times him telling me that if he had something to say, he'd say it, otherwise he didn't see the point in talking. And if I tried to talk to him, several times he said, "that's YOUR problem" or similar. But I do remember a couple conversations, early on in the marriage, where I specifically laid out guidelines as far as what I needed i.e. when I come home from work, don't ignore me, say hi. Yes, really, those are the kind of basic things I was after. So when I brought that up, he was able to do it for a short while but it seemed really fake and uncomfortable, so he stopped doing it. When I had a (admittedly minor) health problem and he knew I was seeing a doctor and knew when the appointments were, he never once asked how things were going or what the treatment was or anything. In fact, I don't remember a single time in our entire marriage where he ever asked me a question. About anything. He was largely uninterested in me as a person. I remember very few conversations, even. He would make statements, about himself. I would reply. Or I'd make a statement, and he'd reply.

 

The abuse didn't actually start until later, around 2007. Actually I think it had always been present, but I just lived my life so he wouldn't be angered. But around the end of 2007/beginning of 2008 we were both under a lot of stress, and some pretty bad things happened that neither of us could help. Our business started going under, and then to rub salt in the wound we were swindled out of $100,000.00+ It was all legal and unrecoverable. Long story. He started bullying me and I allowed it and the more I allowed it the worse it got (I told myself I was strong and he couldn't hurt me). By the time it gets to this level, there is no negotiating better treatment with your abuser. Things like me hitting snooze on my alarm would--and did--throw him into a rage, or coming home and finding a candy wrapper on the kitchen counter, or someone hanging their coat over his on the coat rack. One time I wrote a check for around $22.00 out of our joint checkbook (I wasn't allowed to spend any money without his permission, and he never gave his permission--ever) for pizza for the kids, and he went insane for a month. Called me at work harrassing me for a solid week, asking me how did I think I was going to get away with that? Didn't I know he'd see it? One night he went downstairs where I stored some off-season clothes, and he literally destroyed the closet and was going to throw my stuff out on the lawn. A few days after that he went out and started cleaning out the van because it was HIS and I was going to have to start walking to work or arrange for a ride (we had three vehicles, and all were in his name, but I primarily drove the van). I think it was that same day that he told me to hand over my car keys, all my cash, and any credit cards I had. He wanted me to be completely powerless against him. I told him to go to hell. I sat the kids down and told them dad was moving out. At that point he realized he had went too far, apologized, and we stayed together but the marriage for all practical purposes was over. He made no real changes but usually had the sense to stop before he pushed me too far, and I tolerated him because we had kids and a mortgage and intertwined lives, and no real resources to file for divorce. This is when I pretended I wasn't in an abusive marriage, but spoke to a few friends who told me how inappropriate this all was. I just thought he was a jerk and reacting to stress. Except that day in late 2012 when he cleaned out the bank accounts, put the money at a different bank solely in his name, and stopped paying household bills. I scrambled to get financial backing from relatives and filed for divorce as quickly as I could. So it wasn't courage that led me to file, ultimately, it was desperation. If I hadn't, my kids and I were going to be homeless.

 

What attracted me to him initially? He was charming and seemed like he wasn't just after one thing. He was way better than any of the guys I had met up to that point. Everyone liked him, my family liked him, my friends liked him. I was told over and over what a good "catch" he was. He wanted to settle down and get married. In hindsight, I think he thought my family was more "moneyed" than they were. He definitely put up a good front while we were dating and engaged (I call it the bait and switch), but a few months into the marriage I started seeing who he really was. I assumed it was my fault and I wasn't being a good wife. What a mess. I could've done a lot of things differently but I'm convinced the end result would've been the same. Divorce was absolutely going to happen either way, I really just prolonged the inevitable.

[benga]

Waffle - some relationships should end, and what you described above seems to be one of those unions which ought to have ended before it actually did.

 

I am sure he has his own version of the truth - every story has two sides, but clearly, you both had issues with each other... That said, i dont thing ANY of the men who are posting around here are anything like your husband. Good, honest, caring men/women - in our minds atleast who were completely shocked when the the big decision was made, and who initially would have done anything to keep their families intact. The connection we found amongst ourselves here is the sudden change of behaviors from the ex-spouse, bordering dysfunctional... We got here years ago to understand what specifically this dysfunction is. Long story short

 

Cheers

Benga

[waffle]

I am sure he has his own version of the truth - every story has two sides . . .

Right. As Dr. Phil says, no matter how flat you make a pancake, it still has two sides. However, there are opinions, and then there are indisputable facts. xH draining the bank account(s) and putting all the money in his name is not just my opinion, it's a fact. That actually happened. So did the other things I mentioned, whether or not there is any actual "proof." If I say things like "he's a jerk" or general references to harassment, those are opinions. Him calling me at work yelling at me about spending money to feed his kids: fact. Him demanding I turn over my money and car keys: fact. He, of course, has reasons why he "had" to do these things . . . it's very common for abusers to keep a running tally of your transgressions that you need to be punished for. And while these reasons may be facts (as in, "she didn't get out of bed the first time her alarm clock went off, and it woke me up") I would caution you to be careful of trying to justify his actions by saying "you aren't perfect either, and he has his own truth after all" because it sounds too much like "you must've done something to deserve this." If one's actions are abusive, then they are abusive and you can probably see why it's unwise to participate in the "what did you do to deserve this?" discussion.

 

. . . who were completely shocked when the the big decision was made, and who initially would have done anything to keep their families intact.

Of course. One of the most common things ever. Usually how it happens, in my experience, is the marital partner (almost always the wife) identifies things wrong in the marriage (from her perspective, of course) and she's either not clear about what she's unhappy about or chooses not to tell him because "he should have the common sense to know how to conduct himself in a relationship", or the husband just doesn't get it when he's told, or perhaps chooses not to get it. After a while the wife stops nagging (that's how a husband often interprets these "talks", as nagging) and he thinks, great! All is well. The nagging has finally stopped. He continues on happily with the status quo while she has given up hope and is planning her exit strategy. Then he gets served with divorce papers at a time where he thought everything was going along well. I'm not sure I agree with your "dysfunctional" assessment though. It seems to me to simply be a difference in how the end of the marriage is approached.

[John Bendix]

I have been reviewing this discussion for a while now.

 

There is a difference between noting common events in these relationship breakdowns and searching for justifications for our actions. If we simply note the events that rationalize our behaviour and discount all others, we are not being objective.

 

"Of course. One of the most common things ever. Usually how it happens, in my experience, is the marital partner (almost always the wife) identifies things wrong in the marriage (from her perspective, of course) and she's either not clear about what she's unhappy about or chooses not to tell him because "he should have the common sense to know how to conduct himself in a relationship", or the husband just doesn't get it when he's told, or perhaps chooses not to get it. After a while the wife stops nagging (that's how a husband often interprets these "talks", as nagging) and he thinks, great! All is well. The nagging has finally stopped. He continues on happily with the status quo while she has given up hope and is planning her exit strategy."

 

This is almost word for word from Michelle Weiner-Davis and it has a huge amount of merit is describing the Walkaway Wife's perspective. There is an obvious breakdown in communication from both sides. That does not mean the communication cannot be re-established with effort on both sides. To quit on attempting to reconnect the strong connection appears to be, in these cases, from one side only. That one side is capable to do or say anything to destroy that connection in order to seek refuge from the perceived source of all its purported emotional misery, the partner. Even if it is to act in a manner that is mean, selfish, irrational, non-compassionate, and devoid of civilized interaction processes. To put up a wall to any attempt to meaningful communication from the outside is simply dysfunctional and psychologically detrimental to even the wall creator. To say it is simply a matter of how the end of the marriage is approached is the end justifying the means. That I cannot condone.

[waffle]

Women are not men, and we don't think like men. And it's the rare (I would say non-existent) man who understands that.

 

I take issue with the phrase "walk-away wife" although not the concept. The concept is real and my friends and I have been discussing it for many, many years. Wondering why it was that we as wives could talk ourselves blue in the face about what we wanted and what we needed, only to be dismissed and/or just generally not taken seriously. We always assumed (correctly or incorrectly) that the husband wasn't really inspired to change because if all we do is talk, and then Husband does nothing different and we as wives just continue to talk to him and try to negotiate with him, and there are no "consequences" or action taken when the results aren't there, then where is the incentive for him to ever do anything different? I mean, it's working for HIM, right? After years of getting no results, wives become a little more action-oriented. Sometimes the threat of divorce inspires men to start paying attention, but sometimes not. Sometimes it isn't until divorce papers are actually served that a man wakes up. Either way, by then it's often too late. At that point, what the husband sees is what's called "putting up walls" and "mean, selfish, irrational, non-compassionate" behavior by the wife in the post above. Why is it labeled as mean, selfish and irrational when the wife's feelings die a natural death from neglect, and she's now unable/unwilling to give him what HE wants when HE wants it?

 

"Walk Away Wife" . . .when I hear that term, I think of a woman who (and I know women who have done exactly this for exactly these reasons) got bored with the marriage and now instead of doing the hard work, she simply wants to leave and score some new c*ck. Which is much different than what I described above.

[John Bendix]

"At that point, what the husband sees is what's called "putting up walls" and "mean, selfish, irrational, non-compassionate" behavior by the wife in the post above." is way past dysfunctional. If indeed someone's feeling have died "a natural death" then communicate that and move on. Do not treat the other partner with this type of unacceptable behaviour. It is not acceptable to treat anyone in these ways even if you have reached a frustrated level with getting your needs met. It is certain that when someone's emotional "needs" are met, the ego will also find more. If someone's determines that their emotional needs outweigh the connection the couple has attained, then indeed walkaway but in a civilized manner.

 

The term Walkaway Wife or Spouse has been explained in this and other threads over and over again. It is a term denoting someone demonstrating this type of maladaptive behaviour.

[Brotherhood67]

I personnally don't like those labels for many reasons. And the first one being this belief that women think a lot differently than men (no offence ! ;-) ). It's a sexist thought in my opinion because I know a LOT of men who actually behaved like those "walk-away wives" described here.

 

Furthermore, in the end, what's the matter at hand ?

 

One person in the couple is not completely happy and tells his/her partner. He/she doesn't listen or take him/her seriously. Then, after a while, this person disconnects because he/she doesn't believe in change anymore. And leaves. Or threatens to do so.

 

For me, this behaviour is unisex and derives from many things but the most important one is the overall inability of a lot of people of being happy and satisfied in a relationship. I see a lot of wives, husbands constantly NAGGING her/his SO about anything, almost in some sort of strange will to impose one's POV on the other person. For me, it's a disrespectful behaviour and accelerate loss of feelings - this person quite simply KILLS WILLINGLY his/her feelings by doing so in the long run.

 

It is a self-centered behaviour derived, IMO, from an internal insecurity which burns into the hearts of those persons - the need to make one other person "fit" into his/her fantasy. A constantly changing fantasy. An impossible feat.

 

When you love someone, you love him/her with all your heart and for what she/he is. Not for what this person "could" become if you "play your game right and influence him/her". That's the equivalent of loving an image and displays a LOT of narcissistic traits in the process. But many people do it. And end up killing a relationship because, in the end, they want it to be. They feel that "they are worthy" of this.

 

And believe it or not, they are men and women. And I'm not talking about abusive or volent relationships. I'm talking about the average Joe or Jane's relationship with his/her wive/husband.

[John Bendix]

Brotherhood-

 

I do agree with your assessment. It is this egoic search to obtain what one wants things to be even if that want is that of another person's actions. An impossible task to obtain. That dysfunctional drive manifests itself in unacceptable behaviour when that desire cannot be realized. As for believing that they are "worthy of this", I think it is more that they feel that they are somehow "entitled to this".

[twin20091]

Don't do it lol

[waffle]

It's just the term that I take issue with, since the term doesn't accurately describe the concept in my opinion (fully recognizing that no one asked me). I should take it upon myself to try to find another name for it. Then contact Michelle Weiner-Davis (was it she who coined the term?) and enlighten her. Ha ha! Kidding.

 

I'm probably not getting it, but I don't see the point in FINALLY taking it all seriously and trying to save the marriage at the 13th hour when it's too late. It's like trying to revive a dead patient days after they've been pronounced dead. Sometimes all the talking in the world won't make it happen. That's sort of where I was . . . minus the abuse that was going on (which as I've said was apparently okay with me I likened my divorce to firing an employee five years after they quit. There was no talking necessary, it was just sort of a formality at that point. But I will admit that him being an a-hole made it super easy to divorce him. If he had been this nice, caring guy who was honestly interested in trying, I probably would've been persuaded to try one more time--even though that would've been a mistake as it still would've just prolonged the inevitable.

 

I have a question though. If a woman is 100% sure she wants a divorce, yet still does all the obligatory talking and marriage counseling and what have you, and still wants a divorce after all that and the husband doesn't . . . is she still a "walk away wife"? Just curious.

[benga]

Waffle - This thread isnt a mans club. If I go down memory lane, and through the history of this thread, I dont ever recall any one of us using the term "walk away wife" ourselves anywhere, its sexist. We have stayed away from making this anything to do with gender! Go back if you have the time, and you will see the term Walk Away Spouse (WAS) used. You will have seen that at the outset, there were numerous women chiming in here to discuss their husbands who left them behind. Survival behaviours (those displayed by a WAS) arent specific to any gender. To understand this thread better, you might want to read John's book "Walking Away from Divorce into Awareness" and you might get some answers for yourself and for specifically why this thread is a) so insightful, b) why it has been going strong for the past 6 years and c) why it has helped and provided perspective for so many who have stopped by.

If I recall your history wasnt it your husband who said that he didnt love you anymore and you got your act together quickly to divorce him? You seem bitter about something? What is that? None of us here seem to refer to our spouses (past/present) with any sort of resentment or anger any more.. In your case, whats done is done. Sure he might have been an a**hole for you, but you are now divorced, and you should drop the baggage and move on from there. It would help you to stop making references to how terrible he was at every opportunity that you get. It doesnt solve anything.. not for you nor for anybody else here.. My 2 cents..

[waffle]

Waffle - This thread isnt a mans club. If I go down memory lane, and through the history of this thread, I dont ever recall any one of us using the term "walk away wife" ourselves anywhere, its sexist. We have stayed away from making this anything to do with gender! Go back if you have the time, and you will see the term Walk Away Spouse (WAS) used.

You might use WAS here in this thread, but Michele Weiner-Davis refers to it as WAW:

link removed

so it's Ms. Davis herself that is sexist, apparently.

 

If I recall your history wasnt it your husband who said that he didnt love you anymore and you got your act together quickly to divorce him? [/QUOte]

No. You must have me confused with someone else. My xH claimed to love me but his actions showed different (in my opinion) and it wasn't until he did specific, concrete things that were to the direct detriment of this entire family, that I filed for divorce. Of course I regret not ending the marriage sooner, but otherwise there is no resentment or baggage--save for the fact that he continues to dodge child support, which I do need to support this family and I don't apologize for that. I simply disagree with some of the things I read here i.e. the "walk-away-wife" or rather, spouse, somehow OWES it to the other spouse to work on the marriage when he decides he's ready to (or she, whichever the case may be). Let me give this example: I had a small houseplant that died a couple years ago, basically from neglect. I did try to water it when I remembered, but apparently not enough. It died. At that point, would it have done any good to tell the plant, "I'm sorry, I'll start watering you now"? No. No matter how good my intentions are at that point, and how much I start watering, it is simply too late. Had I watered adequately back while it was still alive--different outcome.

 

The fact that my opinions differ does not make me "bitter" and truthfully none of this current discussion has has anything at all to do with my own marriage or divorce. I thought I had been clear about that. The reality is I simply have a different experience and a different perspective. Hand-holding and agreeing with everything that's posted just for the sake of agreeing is lovely and all, but sometimes you need to think critically.

[lostandhurt]

Opinions are like ***holes, everyone's got one.

 

We have all been changed by drastic things happening in our lives. For me and many of my friends here we have tried to learn and grow from it.

 

I myself am a better man, father, brother, boss and person because of the turmoil and pain my ex brought on us. If we totally forget the past we are doomed to repeat it but looking back for what ever reason at the very least skews our view of today and at the worst causes us to close our minds and hearts to the good all around us.

 

I have been around here for some time and like to think I have helped some (male and female) in some small way through some very scary and uncertain times in their lives. Some listen and learn and others have preconceived ideas that only waste time, energy and the life of the ones that don't let go and accept things as they really are, not as we wish them to be.

 

The things I have learned here are priceless and I apply them to my life every single day. I totally accept what my ex has been and still is today but at times it is still hard to deal with when a new dysfunction pops up or she ignores her own son's needs. I rebound faster each time (some times in minutes) and see it for what it really is so my life and my son's life are not hampered by it.

 

One of the biggest things I can be thankful for from all the years here is that when my 14 yr old son asks me "why does she act like" "why doesn't she care" "why does she lie to me" "I only seem to matter to her when I am standing right in front of her" ... I have pretty good answers to help him accept what is going on. Many times I can't explain why but I can help him understand and accept the situation which is a precious gift that I can give him.

 

John taught me all about my ego which helped me so very much.

Benga taught me patience of a Buddhist monk.

Just M.E. taught me that there are wonderful women in this world and that I shouldn't give up on the gender because of the past.

Scorn, Tigger, Surjon, and the list goes on and on helped me in ways at the time I didn't understand but could feel. 6 years ago....wow.

 

There is much to be learned if we would just open our minds...

 

Lost

[Jeffbobo]

Over three years in as a single dad... Three daughters 13, 13 and 11. My two eldest are in soccer and volleyball this quarter. Additionally one of my daughters is in cheer. These are things that they enjoy and there is emense benefit with their involvement in these activities for them. Their mom sees it as a burden to her and will not deal with it nor attend any of their games. They call me to help them with their homework when they are at their moms. There are things they will not say when on the phone and I can tell that their mom is close by listening. They text me frequently and their mom ends up taking their phone from them saying, "Why do you text your dad all the time but not me?" Also telling them to make sure and call or text them when they're with me or she'll take their phone (I pay for it btw). Their mom won't even take them shopping for bras... They talk to me and ask me for the things that are personal and important to a young woman. I take care of everything with school and their activities. I can go on and on about things... Three daughters going into teenage years... God help me. Lol. One of my daughters has continually expresses the desire to live with me 100% of the time. Very difficult conversation to have. My other daughters are leaning this way as well. The lawyer says that as they get older (13+), the courts really don't want to get bogged down in custody battles and leave it up to the parents and the desire of the kids.

 

Some of my post here is a rant but I'm also wondering how others have handled custody as the kids get older and they express their desire to be with one parent over the other. How do you have that conversation with your ex when communication is horrible in general anyway? Just trying to figure out what's best.

[benga]

Jeff - I was left with my daughter to look after when she was just 3 years old. Even though I was lost, didnt know what to do, didnt have a support system my daughter simply dug her heels and refused to stay with her mother, for about the same reasons as your kids chose to stay with you (too much burden, lack of feeling the responsibility, lies, never involved in school/life etc., no time spend etc etc.). My daughter was pretty stubborn about the fact that she didnt want to stay with her mom and each time she had to go, there was a huge tantrum (off course my wife blamed me for that!!). Not quite sure what anybody can do if the kids themselves make up their minds and decide what they want to do.. Sure we as parent can reason and speak with them, encourage them, but when they simply see through all the b**, I am not sure anybody can really do anything to force them against their wishes.. Since we werent divorced, it was simply an agreement my wife and I had about who our daughter would stay with. After a while, my wife too accepted that my daughter was happier being with me, though she visited us everyday and drove me absolutely mad with her unpredictability, strange conversations and mind numbing views of reality the few years this pattern continued.. Through this period, my wife also saw that I had changed completely and started planning her way back into our lives..

 

Even when my wife moved back ~ 4 years ago, the relationship she had with our daughter wasnt fixed instantly.. It took a few years of consistent committment on her part to rebuild the trust that was lost between mother and daughter. I naturally stayed away while all of this was happening, but encouraging the whole process.. But even today, my daughter is still daddy's lil princess - comes to me for every "decision" that needs to be made, advice etc, and we have long conversations everyday about her school, activities, boys We spend the whole weekend doing stuff outdoors.. But the relationship she has with her mother is definitely better and nearly normal..

 

Jeff - not sure if this is a conversation your exW will understand. She will think you are trying to turn the kids against her. Would be great to have John chime in here. He had all his kids stay with him too..

 

Waffle - I hope now you can see the fundamental differences between your situation and others on this thread?

[Raoul]

Jeff,

 

Benga is right. As children reach their teens, which parent sees them the most and is there for them the most makes differences that cannot be codified in court orders or seen as 'fair' by the parent that does not see the kids as much.

 

My three (now 22, 20 and 17 - boy, boy, girl) spend nearly all of their time with me and have done so for many years. This drives their mother crazy. So they get the same thing you do - that I 'have turned them against her '. I get the homework, housework and expense of having them. But I also get the joy and enlightenment that having them around brings.

 

Even though I have large, court-ordered child support obligations based upon the fantasy that my ex and I share custody equally, this has never happened in the six years I've been separated/divorced.

 

I guess I accept that life does not come with unmixed blessings very often. As I look back over the last six years and contemplate the future, I would much rather have my situation that that of my ex.

[lostandhurt]

Jeff,

We are walking some of the exact same roads buddy. My 14, nearly 15 year old son has told me several times that if things don't improve with his mother he wants to move in permanently with me and visit her occasionally.

I looked into the whole kids get to choose after a certain age which turned out to be false. In legal terms the courts see anyone under the age of 18 as legally incompetent and unable to make legal choices for themselves.

You are a good man Jeff and I know how much work it is taking care of EVERYTHING all the time. There are times I only sleep 4 hrs a night for weeks on end because I have so much on my plate. Raoul, Benga, John and myself have and do live this like you do. It can be tough but boy is it rewarding. Just wait till your girls are full grown and visit and speak to you often, come to dinner and one day bring their kids to visit you. The dues you pay today will pay off a million times over.

 

Since I start work very early logistically it is very hard for me to have my son in the mornings before school but he will be driving soon enough and will be able to get himself to school and then it gives us the chance to change things up a bit.

 

I have been encouraging my son to try and improve the relationship between his mother and himself but as he says "Dad, it is just so hard" and boy do I know it!!! It is worth a try though...

 

Once he starts driving I imagine he will just start staying with me slowly more and more until he is with me full time. We have already discussed where he will live once he starts college and he knows he is welcome to stay with me as long as he needs to while in school. I will of course keep paying child support until he turns 18 no matter where he resides.

 

There is no easy answer unfortunately Jeff. Do you have a sister your girls can turn to for topics dads are ill equipped to discuss?

 

For the record there are some damn good men on this thread that are wonderful fathers and I am proud to know you all.

 

Lost