LostinVan

Then why do I feel like crap Last update on the day, then some thoughts... After she was done teaching, she came in the house. I was in the living room, playing Bond, James Bond on the PS2 (just bought it, cool game. I'm not a gamer, but I like Bond). She said hi, went up stairs (you guessed it, computer again) for about 20 mins. A couple of days ago, I asked her for help cutting the nails on our oldest dog, as she's blind and finnicky about it. I took the opportunity to go upstairs after about 20 mins and just start doing it. I even asked the ex "where's the dog's nail clippers?". She told me where, but that was it. I started clipping, ex went downstairs, did something, then called up 'I'm leaving now..." I said "okay, have a great evening, drive safely!" with a smile in my voice. She said 'yeah..." and was gone. Some thoughts. Today for the first day, I was kind of sorry for the ex, and also a bit mad at her (first time since the break). The dog hitting bugged me; I had flash backs to how she took out her aggression on the dogs in the past. I also saw that she sees *no changes* in me at times (her perspective)... as in she thought me staying was somehow trying to manipulate her into moving back. This isn't the case, and I hope I made it clear to her, but I could see she wasn't in a mood for discovering things could be different today (not that I manipulated her very much in the past, IMO; but her perception may be different). It did feel good today to gently (I hope) put my foot down and let her know that, hey, you're the one who left, don't expect me to always bend over backwards for you and take it up the heinie... but I'm guessing she didn't see it this way. Sigh. The rollercoaster continues. LostinVan

Thanks to the new women in my life Another update. Not a good one, though you tell me if I handled things well. 5:30, starting prepping the meal. I decided to have lox as an appy (with cheese and some thin breads) - something I've never made before. Meal went good. We sat outside to do it, and all the talk was "how was your day, so and so's doing this, oh that's good, this sounds good, joke, laughter, smiles, nice, etc etc"... but there was some tension in the air, obviously from her side. After dinner, we went to go sit in the remaining sun. We chit chatted a bit more, then she said "I have two questions for you, and you probably won't like them." I said "what are they? I might surprise you". First was the mortgage on this house. She felt I should pay for it all right now since she's not staying here. I said "well, your place of business is here, and you have all your stuff here, and you do spend several hours a day here most days; I will agree, however, to paying 75% of the mortgage this month and the following month.." She didn't like it much, but said okay. Second question: "I'm afraid I'm going to have to put you on a deadline for when you are leaving the house so I can move back in. I need you to set a date, then stick to that date." before I get into my reply, I told her a couple of days ago that because of the two major stress events in my life recently that I had no direct control over (Mom's death, breakup), and a third major stress event coming up (trade show, I'm heavily involved with giving lectures, etc), that I would not start looking for a place until early May. I told her then I would try to make June 1 a goal for moving out, but no guarantees. So, I didn't reply right away when she asked for a deadline. Then I said: "you know what I said a couple of days ago. This still stands. Right now, one element of stress I can personally control is moving. So I've decided to not even think about it until May. I am using this time to heal and feel better about myself. There is no malice here on my part, but I do need to remind you, you were the one who left, not me. I'm doing what I feel is reasonable for myself, then you." She *did not* like hearing this. She said "you're just being manipulative, trying to control me..." I said "I'm sorry you feel that way, but nothing is further from the truth. Right now, I'm trying to heal myself as best I can from two devestating events in my life. I am mainly concerned about myself right now, making myself happy again, and making myself into a better person. I'm not going outside of myself to find happiness (uh oh, I put in a "dig" against her finding other guys), I'm finding it within me. There's no thought of manipulation in my mind when it comes to my decision to put off moving until May or June." (and there isn't, btw). She went quiet. I said her name. She said "yes ______" without looking. I said "talk to me, please." She said "I have nothing to say". So I said "well, thank you for having dinner with me, I really enjoyed it and I mean that", got up, and went to do the dishes. She went into her class room. Came into the house a couple of minutes later and said, with a pout, "it was very rude of me to leave you to do the dishes. Thank you for dinner" and she did some cleanup. She went upstairs, then came back downstairs. I said "Could I tell you one thing? If at any time you do want to talk about anything, feel free to do it - I may very well surprise you with how I react or what I say". She said okay. One postscript which aint good. Remember how she said she resents the dogs? Another thing I've never liked about her. When she's frustrated, she takes out her anger on the dogs, hitting them, etc etc. Well, I was outside with our youngest dog, playing, and she came out to go to her classroom again. Our dog bounded after her with joy. She yelled at the dog, and slapped it on the side of the face. I calmly and directly said: "please do not hit my dog again". She went into her class. I probably won't see her again tonight. Sigh. So, did I do good? It's so soon after this happened, but I think I did, and I think also I made her realise she was being a schmuck by a) making assumptions b) being mean c) hitting the dog Perhaps it was too much, but I was angry with her for a moment when she hit a dog that was nothing but happy to see her. LostinVan.

GeeCee, the voice of reason! Okay. Here's today's tally, which is brief, then some thoughts. The ex forgot that she was going to come over "for lunch" because I bought some halibut over the weekend, fresh off the boat, and when I mentioned it to her yesterday, she hinted she'd like some, so I said "well, I could wait until lunch tomorrow, cook some, and you could have some!" She agreed. But today, by 1pm, she wasn't here. I called her cell phone (GSM type, which lets you "send to busy" when you see the caller id) and sure enough, after two rings, she "sent me to busy"... (it normally rings 6 times). So I left an okay message: "Hi, I wasn't sure if you were still coming over for fish for lunch; I'm going to cook it up now, give me a call if you'd like", and left it. She didn't call back. 2:50 pm, she shows up. I'm taking a break from work and playing a video game. She comes in, says hi, has brief words (says "sorry, I forgot lunch"), smiles, then goes upstairs for, you guessed it, computer time. I don't see her again until 3:27, when she comes back outside to go to her classes she's teaching (I'm outside, working on the back deck), ready to teach. I smile and say nice things. I say "I hope you've had a great day! (with a stupid ass smile on my face. Grrr), and she said "I have a break between 5 and 6, if you would like to spend some time talking?" I said "well, if you're hungry, there's still a couple of filets left. I could toss them on the bbq for you", and she was sort of receptive, smiled and went to work. So, some thoughts... First, yeah, I'm pretty aware that she would be comparing me to any guy she meets. That's partially what worries me. I have to admit I've become sedentary in my life (ie, more than a few pounds around the waist), and I am self conscious about it. I know its superficial, but at times I wonder how the hell I could compete with guys who are a) good looking AND b) telling her all sorts of flowery, nice things!!! (as a side note, I'm on Atkins, have been since before our break, and I've dropped about 20lbs. But as a bad thing, she hasn't said a word about noticing it - even though my pants are slightly loose these days). Second, end the emotional convos. I know it. You know it. We all know it. It's so damned hard!!!! SO DAMNED HARD! But yeah, I have to do it. I know it. My heart needs to comply. third, re, me hitting on her via the dating web site. I've thought about that for a few days. Thought when (and if) I'm ready with myself to ask her on a date again (ie, I have a personal committment to myself not to ask her on a date again until I know that I will be different in a new relationship with her), I would possibly use that avenue. If she didn't know I knew about the web dating site, I probably wouldn't... too much of a shock. But since she knows I know (most likely), could it be considered "cute"? Re, she has a need for me. That is true. Problem is, at times I think her need is to feel better about herself, so by talking to me and being nice, she has less guilt about the break. It's like she has this duty, and she's trying to fulfill it. So at times, I think she's using me. If that's true, what to do with it? LostinVan

Dissection time: "I hate the phone". Presenting an image he will know well? If so, then show a tiny change... use the phone. Or use "in person". "I am ready to be your friend". That's good. Soul searching comment is good too. "You mean too much to me to do that..." Too much here. Heavy. If I were healing and such, and I was in your ex'es shoes, this would be clingy. Girlfriend comments. Forgeddaboutit. Let *him* bring it up, the surprise him with a certain aloofness about it, as in "it's his life at the moment". "I'd love to see you...." Don't use the word love in any context if you can. Not now. Now, the rest of my thoughts. Don't send the letter. Use it as your diary entry or journal entry. Use it to get your thoughts together (a lesson I'm still learning and forgetting! please, no one think of me as a hypocrite! I'm not clear about how you could initiate contact... could you drop in on him? Could you arrange it so it's a casual meet? If you call, keep it light and breezy. Just say "I'm going to Europe soon, and I would really like it if we could get together over coffee or something before I go..." and see what happens. Keep it short and sweet. Best of luck! LostinVan

I think a better approach would be to go in expecting the best, but also steel yourself for the worst. If you go into whatever you do thinking the best possible outcome will happen, it will affect the way you actually *go into it*... in other words, if you go into your first contact thinking that things will be friendly, upbeat, relaxed even, then you will be friendly, upbeat and relaxed. Which will be a good thing! The trick is, you have to prepare yourself for the worst scenario... yes, think it through, and most importantly, think how you would react... visibly of course. And think of ways you could react that will put you in the best possible light. Think of it this way. If you go in expecting the best and are cheery and happy, and he's a dink, you could continue to be nice, smile, tell him no hard feelings on your part, etc etc, and the dink becomes a dork who looks (and I guarantee you) feels stupid. And you'll probably still feel okay after the "meet". Food for thought? LostinVan

Dan, first, you ARE the man! Second, congratulations on this, I'm extremely happy for you. Also thank you for the pm message, I hope my reply didn't put you off too much. I am looking at your example, because in some ways we had the same type of break up (ie, my ex said the things yours said). But also looking at your lessons is a challenge for me, because becoming weak and challenged, in the ex's eyes, was not a problem in our relationship. In my case, work's going well, probably too well (too much time involved); I was the classic "hard head" in our arguments. I was the strong and silent type. Here's one thing, that is possibly a 180 from you and what you've gone thru... I've always been the strong, silent one, but with my Mom's passing, I've taken moments to do something out of character... cry like there's no tomorrow. I've done it alone, I've done it with the ex (after the break up), but I've always tried to make the clear distinction in her mind that my crying was because of my Mom... not the break up. I will say that I got teary eyed by the relationship, in front of the ex a few times since the break (plus the evening I came home to the letter, and left messages on her cell phone that night, I was bawling bad). But I'm getting a handle on that too. All advice from all sides is, show a strong, confident, aloof air to the ex... but in my case, that's what I did most of the last five or six years of the relationship!!! If I'm to do a 180 for the ex, I'm still confused myself as to what to do. One 180 is starting to become natural - *listen* to her. Really hear what she has to say. I didn't do that before. But the other 180 I am also doing (vis a vis my Mom) ... and the 180 the advice all around says don't do is show her a sensitive, vulnerable side. I think in our entire relationship, the ex has seen me cry maybe 3 or 4 times. She's now seen it a dozen times in the last two weeks, mostly cuz of my Mom. But, I don't want to hijack your thread here. I'm also taking note from the ways you went about it, and one thing - you've been hearing the words a lot of us are dying to hear from our ex'es, so once again, way to go, Dan, and remember it all - and here's hoping your relationship lasts forever! LostinVan

Hi Gee Cee. You said a lot of things that are right (sigh, when will we men realise women are right a lot of the time so I'm not going to approach it. Could you and other women on the board help me though... help me understand what my ex *may* be thinking right now about the following. 1. She most likely knows that *I know* she's on a specific dating board. I had to set up a profile to see her account, so I did, and I made it obvious in my description etc who I was (at least to her eyes reading it), even my name tag is obvious. On this particular board, you can see "who is viewing my pages", and she's not stupid. She will see that. Also yesterday in our talk, she made a slight comment: "hey, it's probably not a good idea to be asking about me to friends and family". I thought it was because I had a good heart to heart with a good friend of hers a few days ago. Now I'm thinking she thinks I asked around to her brothers etc about the dating board. So, what do you think is going through her mind right now? Fear? Worry? Laissez Faire? Defensiveness? Caution? All the above? If you were in her shoes (and you knew I wasn't a jealous guy; you also knew I haven't brought it up, which may be a surprise to you), what's going on? (sidenote: it would be soooooooo cool if she contacted *me* through this board, asking for some online sex, a casual date, or even an IM chat!!! How weird is that?) 2. I noticed just a couple of minutes ago that she hasn't accessed it since yesterday AM (when she was here at the house with broadband connectivity - where she's staying she has no internet access, and she's been going to a lot of internet cafes to check email, etc etc). On this particular dating board, I can see when she last logged on, and she hasn't visited in 24 hours. Good sign, I guess. 3. She has made her profiles unviewable, either as a) only viewable when she's online, or b) unviewable for the moment (these are both options with one's profiles - in my case, I have it set to "view anytime"). This could be a reaction to her discovering me on the board though. What to make of this? 4. If she knows I know, but I never bring it up, what do you think her ongoing mindset will be? Again, she cares about me still, she said (a couple of weeks ago now) that she still loves me and will always love me, and she said she doesn't want to hurt me anymore (which I believe, but she also thinks that if we get back together, she will continue to hurt me, hence the break). 5. She is still carrying on email convos with guys from the board, and she IS definitely going on dates with a couple of them now. Again, now that I know, and she probably knows that, what is her mindset now about me knowing "word got around that I'm available again" means "I put the word out very quick that I'm available". It would really help me to get the female perspective from all of this. In the meantime, I'll still try to give my upbeat, male perspective in your threads LostinVan

Hi Folks. Please bear with me (and please, if you can, address the previous posts from today as well as this one - I'm hesitant to start a new thread). I've been mulling what to do about this almost 4 months of internet dating, chat and sex service the ex has been having (3 months while in the relationship, plus about three weeks since breaking up). There's a bottom line here for me... her self-esteem is getting a boost, mine's taking a massive hit. I'm thinking of doing the following in one of our next chats. I should point out again that we are talking most days face to face, on friendly (and friendship building terms), with some signs of affection, ie, hugs, occasionally holding hands (she loves holding hands), the rare kiss on the cheek. Some of the affection comes from her supporting me during my down times about my Mom's recent death. Some come from us chatting as friends. My intended scenario / talk will not directly mention the internet dating crap. Instead, I'm hoping to say this: "I told you a week or two ago that when you fall in love with someone, you give away a part of your soul to that person, never to be given back. But that's okay, because for what was taken out of your soul, the person you fall in love with also gives you part of her soul, and that part slots into my being, never to be given away again. I know you've been making a variety of efforts to boost your self-esteem, some of them going on for months. I want to tell you that I applaud and support your desire and want to boost your self-esteem. I wish you would let me in to be part of this process, but I understand it may be too difficult at this time for you to accept or even have trust in me being part of that process. But I also need you to know something. Some of your efforts at boosting your self esteem have a direct effect on my own. It's hurting my own self-esteem greatly. It's taking it away from me, piece by piece. You've been telling me for a couple of weeks now that you aren't doing various things because you don't want to hurt me any more than you believe you already have (sidenote - she says this a fair amount when it comes to us having more intense talks or even her coming back to the house and using a guest bedroom, which would make her life a lot easier, vis a vis her work). I have to tell you though, that a couple of the ways you've chosen to boost your self esteem are hurting me greatly, and continue to do so daily. It takes a lot out of me, and makes it hard for me to be positive about the way I want to become." And leave it at that (or wait for her response) So my question, especially for the women on the board like Strong1, Gee Cee, KathyK, others, how is this approach? I've been reading in the DB and DR books that in many cases, you need to confront infidelity. Not with accusations, but with some positive spin while still letting the ex know that you are hurt by it, and need some sort of resolution or explanation (except in the last resort). Is there another way you think I should approach this? Is it all wrong? Put yourself in her shoes for a moment - your ex is in a lot of pain (loss of his Mom, you broke up with him, he's trying to make things good for himself, you're still friends with him and want to be friends)... how do you react when you know you're also doing something wrong (she has this on her bio: I'm here to take a look around, as it is so foreign and intriguing to me. This is a pretty happening exciting place, and I'm such a BAD girl for being here even. and also this at the top about me: No, he doesn't know, and would be upset. There IS one tiny bit of good news, if you can call it that. She has her profiles set to either be only visible when she's online, or turned off (not visible in searches, but findable if you know her username... The profiles are limited access at least now, but that could be because she probably knows *i* know she's on this specific board (people talk). This rollercoaster ride sucks. I want off. LostinVan

Bamster, I appreciate your comments; except I am still committed to trying to make a lasting relationship (and a new one) with my ex. My goals are to work on myself, but also make the possibility of a new and lifelong relationship a reality with her and I. LostinVan

Aw cripes. Here I am being positive to KathyK, and I'm having my own personal depression time again. I found out this evening that the whole "internet dating thing" goes back longer than I thought. The particular board she's on has three segments - dating, relationship, and intimate. I didn't notice it before, but the ex has a long (and at least 3 months old) section in the intimate part. In it, she again states she's in a questionable relationship, and is looking for some serious sex and flirting talk. To make this clear how devestating this is to me. a) I am *not* a person to consider cheating on a partner. EVER. Never in my life have I done it. Rarely have I even considered it, and the few times I did, I was disgusted with the thought (not myself, the thought). b) In my entire life, I've been cheated on once (that I know of). It was a two year relationship in my late teens. c) I tend to gravitate (so I thought) towards partners who have the same monogamous views as I do. d) I had trust issues with my ex during the relationship, but NEVER about infidelity. In fact, I couldn't imagine her ever doing it; that was the thought I had in her when I met her; a year in, two years in, even the day she broke up with me. e) to me, sex talk via IM, email and the phone (all three things she indicates in her profile that she would progress with) is cheating. I am having a hard time getting past this. I thought I was yesterday and today, and now I'm backsliding big time. LostinVan

woah. I missed that earlier on... Wow, breast job. If it's a self-esteem boost, awesome. I've known women who are like night and day after getting one (er, two) - their entire lives have turned around. Confidence exudes. I've also known one or two women who did it because their mates pestered them, and they didn't fare so well.... Food for thought. LostinVan

c'mon KathyK! We're pullin' for ya! The book isn't too expensive - I bought my copy on link removed for $7.50 I think, and there's some used copies available too. OR.... have you tried the local library? LostinVan

Here's a big problem, KathyK. You didn't let everyone down! You were having a life. In life, good and bad things happen!!!!!! As long as you carry the baggage of "letting everyone down", you can't move on from that episode, and it's clouding your emotions and reactions today. A couple of notes. First, three cheers to how the ex came through for you. That's good. In a partnership, that's what should happen - your spouse or partner is the *one* person you should be able to turn to in your darkest moments (outside of a breakup, of course) for solace and help. Man is not an island, nor is a woman! Second, feeling guilt and remorse for a bad situation that you may or may not have had a direct hand is is natural and should be done. So no harm there. The problem is, how you're handling it some three years later... it's like it happened yesterday! Put a positive spin on it, if you can. Think about how you could possibly prevent, via your own present and future actions, anything like the loss of a house again. In other words, "live and learn", don't "live with constant regret". Re your Mom. I don't perceive your Mom as a cruel person. I'm pretty positive she loves you more than life itself, but she's had a hard life, and like I said earlier, she's old school. She's doing what she thinks is best for you to hear, and it's unfortunate that her advice is akin to poison, but I don't personally think (at least from what I've read) that she's doing it out of cruelty. In the Divorce Remedy book, there's a segment on "Well Meaning Friends and Family... in part, The Biased Shoulder When you share your unhappiness with loved ones, what they hear is your side of the story, and your side only. Even though your feelings about your spouse and marriage are valid, they are, nonetheless, biased. Needless to say, if your spouse were in on the conversation, the story about your marriage would take a not-so-slight different turn. But the people who love you don't care about objectivity; they want you to feel better. Although this makes perfect sense, the end result is that the people in whom you are confiding, offer potentially life-changing advice without a complete set of facts. If you follow that advice, you may create an even bigger rift in your marriage. This is from the first chapter, which can be seen here: link removed Good advice! Keep your chin up, KathyK! LostinVan

Thanks Gee Cee and thanks Strong1 (again!) for the valued words of advice. Strong1, the PM is coming. Yesterday was mainly a day of reflection for me. Here's the latest update... and again, I need help interpreting things. Friday night was a bad night for me - thoughts about her prowling the singles websites, about how predatory the guys are there, how guys in general will say *anything* to get in a woman's pants (esp. on a singles dating board), etc etc was driving me nuts. But around 1am, I started practicing my mantra these days - put yourself in her shoes. I realised what Strong1 said - she's looking for an esteem boost, and I accept that. Saturday, I was surprisingly upbeat for most of the day. It's weird - I just bounced back without knowing why (but it's NOT because the ex is getting an esteem boost, more on that below). I spent half the day cleaning the entire back yard and porch, which felt GOOD (it needed it). I even taught our new dog how to play soccer! (no kidding - I taught her how to be a goalie - and she got good at it!) Saturday afternoon though, for the first time since the break, I felt sad for the ex. Really sad and not sure how to approach it. I realised by the afternoon I was happy today, and much of that happiness came from looking inside myself and making personal promises to myself about how I'd be in a future relationship, be it with my ex or with someone else. The happiness came from within. And I was sad for my ex because, as I've said earlier, her happiness is extremely important to me, but the happiness she is feeling now is superficial. She's finding happinesss in having guys persue her. She's relying on the actions of others to make her happy, something that was a downfall in our own relationship. I felt that my ex will never find true happiness in her life, and I got incredibly sad. So today. She came over (she's still here, but now on her computer, doing well, you can guess), and she sat down with me on the back porch on her own accord. We had a good beginning talk, lots of laughs and such, but as I listened to her, she kept *complaining* and being aggravated by the same things she was always upset about (not involving me and our relationship, ironically enough, but her intereactions with others, and how's she's annoyed about this, annoyed about that, etc etc). And she's run down, she's doing a some sighing, maintaining little eye contact. Now... before you think "hrmm, she's regretting the break" - she isn't, at least not consciously. She still has lots of resentment for me and the relationship (I think more the relationship than me). She started complaining about what her life was like in this house. She then told me she held a lot of resentment for the dogs (shocker for me, though I know the dogs made her work hard, ie, dealing with two old infirm dogs in the morning, dealing with a very energetic border collie pup cum adolescent). She started getting teary eyed a bit, and I said "I want you to know, Friday evening was a bad night for me.... I put myself in your shoes that night, saw how your typical day went, and I had a real clear understanding of what things were like from your side. I want to tell you that I empathise, truly empathise with what you went through, and I admire your courage and strength of character to go through it so many years..." This... uh, didn't work well. She started welling up more. So I shut up and let her talk for a bit, but she wasn't talking much. We mentioned some happier things (I told her I taught our dog to play soccer, then demostrated and she was smiling)... then we chatted some more, and I did something I probably shouldn't have done (you tell me): I said "Friday and yesterday, for the first time since our break up, I've started to worry about you. I'm worried, sitting her and listening to you, that your aren't finding real happiness with yourself. I'm worried that so far, it comes from external sources. That's *okay* because it's cool to have people saying nice things to you, but I am geniunely worried now that one of my two goals - that you are happy in life, may not come true. I'd like to help any way I can. I can give you some tools that have been really helping me...." Then I shut up again, because her body language wasn't receiving this well. Kind of clammed up, she said "I hope you don't mind, I have some work to do on the computer". I said "not a worry, go for it!" (with a smile, though inside I was like - yeah, more internet dating), gave her a hug (she usually gives me the hugs), and that was that. So... I'm guessing I screwed up again today, right? LostinVan

Hi KathyK. Jumping in here so I can give you a former "hardheaded" male response to things. Also, today was a massive day of reflection for me (yesterday, another bomb was dropped on me, found out my ex has been using online dating service websites before we broke up). But strangely, today I've been upbeat, and generally positive. The wonders of the human mind. First, some geniune positive reinforcement Kathy... I read your posts, and you're this amazing, wonderful woman with so much to give, so much care and love. NEVER forget that. I can read it in your words. I almost came to tears reading your downtime, self-deprecating posts a couple of pages back. It's okay to get that way at times, but you have to have a game plan for yourself - pick yourself back up. Second - your Mom. She's your Mom, and you love her unconditionally (something I just relearned recently, and not too late ), but lissen up KathyK... Your Mom is oldschool, and oldschool don't fly any longer!!!! Stop listening to your Mom when it comes to your relationship. That also means stop using her as your shoulder to cry on. If she starts, politely ask her to stop. Nuff said. There's a new way to deal with these problems (and no, I'm not an advocate any longer of no-contact, except in dire circumstances). Third, you gave some really frank and honest information about how you met your ex, how you two were when you first started. You talked about how much pride you had in him and how he picked up his situation when he was down. There's so much love and care in there. It's not gone, it's just put aside for now. You asked if you should tell your ex all this. The answer: NO. Don't say it KathyK. To borrow from Nike... Just Do It. When you have interactions with your ex, think back to when things were good with you and him, and how you acted. DO IT. Be understanding. Be nice. Go with the flow. If he gets cranky, think starry eyes and think happy thoughts, and just agree with him. If he comes down on you for something, just LISTEN, take it with a smile no matter how hard it may be, and thank him for telling you it, as you need to understand, from his viewpoint, what the problems were. DON'T tell him on a whim how proud you were of him for past things. Find the opportunity to TELL HIM AGAIN how proud you are of him for something current he may tell you. Get back into what worked with you and him. You know the things that will push his buttons, right? Make him angry? Make him clam up? Make his hardhead get harder and harder? But I also bet you know the things that make him open up. Make him smile. Make him happy for a brief moment. Make him feel like "da man". DO IT. What you don't want to do at this point is pursue. Let the contact happen... if he calls or visits, PAY ATTENTION to what's going on. DO NOT say what's on your mind, but say the things in reaction to what he says or does that you think will lead to tiny positive outcomes. The goal here isn't to have him say "I love you, I want you back" (that may come)... the goal here is to positive reinforce that you're this wickedcool, loving, caring, thinking person who doesn't necessarily bring him joy, but gives him his own chance to find joy within himself. I would highly recommend you read the books I've been reading (thanks to some rec's from people on this board): Divorce Remedy and DivorceBusting. Divorce Remedy is the newer one, and it really gets you thinking about positive reinforcement, and gets you doing things with your mind besides lamenting and feeling sorry for yourself. DivorceBusting is an older book, but I feel it gives you additional tools just to be happy with yourself again... I seriously recommend getting both and following them. From a former hardhead... I want to tell you, hardheads can change too. I'm the dumpee in my situation, and I've had rough times of it lately, but I also realise that not only can I change my own ways, but I already have... today, I should be a seething, bluthering idiot, angry at the world about my ex and her decision to use dating board before our breakup and currently even. Now, I just feel sad about it. Not sad for me. Sad for her in a way because while I'm on the path to finding an inner happiness, she's still needing to get it from third parties saying nice things to her. But I also understand she needs a massive self-esteem boost, so I'm cooling my jets about even bringing the subject up. She needs this stage to heal. (I just hope it doesn't last for too long LostinVan

I still need help with my previous post, but there's a new development I really need help understanding this, and more importantly, how to deal with it. I found out today from my ex's brother that my ex was on a popular dating board at least two weeks (possibly longer) prior to our breakup. I've found her profile. She does mention in it that she has a fiance (me), and that she's just looking for males to be friends with. But I also know (from her bro) that she's started dating guys from the board. Question is, how do I use this info if I talk to her. I'm completely crushed at this point. LostinVan.

Today's update... I'm still nearly destroyed by the ex admitting yesterday she is dating so soon after our breakup. It was a tough night. I hear everything everyone is saying (including her brothers), ie, it's just casual, she wants to feel good, etc. It's not even a jealousy thing... it's a hurt. But I tried my best to mask it. After the huge stuff I told her yesterday I decided to play it cool today if I saw her. I went out, and she came by today with a mutual friend who needs to stay the night here (we have two guest bedrooms, mutual friend was flooded out of her apt today). We didn't talk much at all. She heard me come in the house (I was out when she got here), so she came down from her office and asked how I was. I said fine, smiled, and said "I have some mail for you", and I gave it to her. I also ordered a couple of replacement styli for her PDA some time ago, and picked them up today at my mailbox, so I gave her that. She was thankful (I ordered it before the breakup. I buy her gifts all the time, tiny signs of affection but also because I want to, but I haven't bought her anything since the break). She went off to do her thing for a while, then came down again and very brief chit chat, then asked me to "give her five"... she's never done that before. Then alone time again, then she came to leave... she looked like she wanted to talk to me, but then our mutual friend showed up and I said by pretext "hey, come down to the patio table, check this out" to get her away frm mutual friend. Ex came down, and I said "is there something you wanted to talk about?" She said no, then said "I won't be seeing you for a few days... can you manage in the house with the dogs and such?" I said yes, and said take care. She went to leave, chatted with mutual friend a bit more at the gate to the back yard, said goodbye to me again, I smiled and said goodbye again. She said "here, give me a hug", came to me, hugged (I didn't hug very much, I was feeling like shite and a phony for trying to smile and be jolly). She said "when I come back in a few days, would you like to go for a walk with the dog and me?" This is potentially significant - she's kind of dissassociated herself from the dogs - she doesn't have the same care and affection for them as I do, (never did, though she had some), and since the break she's been distinctly cold to the dogs. Also, I did hint to her yesterday in our long talks that "it would be cool if you walked __________ (our newest, and young dog)... she misses you a lot". So it's possibly guilt that is making her suggest this; she did however ask me to go on the walk with her. I'm wary of reading too much into this. She's constantly giving mixed signals and it's driving me nuts. She left my Dad (who she talks to still) with the impression we may get back together. She tells me the exact opposite. LostinVan, really lost and confused and hurt.

Strong1, I also have a question for you. I truly believe in my head and heart that I want to be friends with her first, "back with her" a distant second. One of my biggest faults in our relationship is that she was truly and dearly my best friend, and I took it for granted, and didn't reciprocate in the last few years. Could you give me some advise, from a female perspective, on how and what I could do to just show her not only is her friendship important to me, but that we are becoming friends again. LostinVan

Whew. Tough one. Tough one to answer publicly, but here goes. For the first four or five years of our relationship, I just wasn't the marrying kind. I didn't believe in the piece of paper. I believed in one's bond, one's word. I don't say "I love you" lightly. I've said it three times to someone outside my family in my entire life. That was my bond. For the next couple of years, I went through a situation where my Mom and Dad separated, and my Mom kept drinking (she had alcohol problems). This, I admit, soured me on marriage. But in our eighth year together, I gave her an engagement ring on xmas day. By year nine, we were loosely planning a wedding, but then my brother announced his marriage plans, then her sister the following spring. I think secretly, I was okay with this (ie, the delay in our marriage) because secretly, I wasn't happy with the relationship as it was, and didn't want to get married or have kids until "things got better". Things obviously didn't get better. I was such a fool - I'd recognize problems, and toss a solution at it. The solution wouldn't work, so what did I do? The next time the problem arose, I'd toss the SAME solution at it, or a very slight variant. What an idiot... Today, I have this enormous sense of guilt. She's 36 with no kids and no relationship. She dearly loves kids. She wanted a whole gaggle of them. I feel I've robbed her of something precious. And yes, I want kids (well, at least one kid) now. I feel even more guilty because I know I could go another five years and still be capable... for her, it's more risky. She even said to me, when she mentioned she was casual dating others, that "well, I'm not getting younger, and I want kids". Inside, I died for a time. LostinVan

Wow Strong1, that was quite the kick in the butt, and yes, I needed it. I am following the DivorceBusting method right now (a lot of it makes sense to me, and it's helping me see things from her perspective - hence the reason for my two confessions). But I did lay it on way too thick, and you're right. I am fearful of playing games with her (one reason why I don't want to do no-contact at this time). Trust was a major problem in our relationship - not trust in that, I thought she'd fool around, but trust in that, I didn't believe her promises. I took the (perhaps misguided) step of being completely honest with her today, because I want to show her I trust any and all decisions she makes, but I also wanted to show her the respect of not hiding my feelings or intentions. a) I really, really do not want the old relationship. There were shining moments, but the angst, miscommunication, and hurt feelings are too deep at times (esp. for her). b) I love this woman with all my heart. I've known for a long time this is the person I wanted to spend the rest of my life with (I didn't tell her this though) c) I want a possible new relationship (hence divorcing the old one) where we discover each other again, have great communication, and fall in love again. Again Strong1, you offer amazing words of wisdom. Thank you for the kick in the butt. I needed it. So did she (ie, my butt kicking LostinVan

Some preamble. My ex is a definite walk-away-wife who has remained friendly and constantly says "I worry about you". But she also says (repeatedly) that she cannot ever see us together again. Today we had a long talk. I made two confessions to her - the confessions were telling her my reasons for not doing two things that were important to her in our past relationship. I didn't do them, not because she wasn't important to me (she was and is), not because I didn't want to support her (I did and do), but because of my own embarrassment and insecurities. I explained them clearly and logically to her today, and she was happy to hear it, and happy to realise it wasn't her... it wasn't me not supporting her or wanting to show affection - it was me and my insecurities. She immediately felt better about herself. But here's where I think I blew it. At one point later on in our talk, I told her that I hoped, at some point in the future, we could date again. I said that I'm putting the past relationship in the past, but I wanted to see if, in the future when we were both ready, if we could find happiness in each other again. She started crying and said "you still don't understand. It's over. I can't be with you any longer." The conversation drifted to the subject of dating others, and I asked her if she had been She said yes, which nearly destroyed me because it's only been a scant 15 days since our break up. I recovered enough to say what was in my mind and heart. I said "the old relationship is dead and history to me now too . I would never even consider asking you out on a date again if I thought the old relationship is where we would be heading. I don't want that. I will never want that. I'm burying all the bad things from the past, and focusing on the present and future, and focusing on positives from now on." I also told her I admired her courage and stance in ending the relationship as it was. It was left at that. No indication from her that anything, even a casual date would be possible. So, did I blow it? LostinVan

I need help dealing with and understanding the following situation. My ex and I have the lines of communcation open right now because of my Mom's recent death (very special ties between my ex and my Mom), and because my ex wants to support me through this time (and boy, do I need the support). I'm currently on the other side of the country from my ex, but I will soon be back home. Last night, we had a long phone conversation. At one point, my ex started venting big time about some failings I had (promises I didn't keep to her friends for one, the way I whined she wasn't spending enough time in the relationship because of professional commitments was another). She got deep and heavy into it, and then said "I gotta go" and hung up, clearly upset beyond anything I've experienced from her in some time. During her talk, I simply listened, and said from time to time "yes...", "I understand now", and "I didn't know how much this had an effect on you at the time, I'm sorry" to her venting. Some of it was stuff I still didn't agree with (she was so involved in a professional society that she was losing sleep, losing her own clients, not having a life, and my "whines" were almost begging her to scale it back so she could get sleep, could have a life). My question is, how do you handle situations like this. My next question is, was simply letting her vent in this extreme way beneficial? I didn't offer solutions or try to be mr. fixit. I just listened, agreed, and did the virtual nod. And I really listened and heard what she said (some surprised me, but I agreed in my mind it was bad stuff). My last question - was this in any way beneficial to her to do this? As I said, it was extreme venting unlike anything I heard before (or at least since the breakup). It was beneficial to me in a way, I learned a few things that were concerns of hers that I didn't realise before. LostinVan

Hi GeeCee. Sorry for the late reply (and also, I should note, for the next five days my ability to reply will be limited). I don't know how much I could add to this. First, I'm a complete neophyte at this whole "how to fix the relationship" thing, and only go by what I get out of a) reading these boards, b) reading books verociously, and c) from my initial counselling sessions. I did note something, I hope it isn't a downer and it's already been said - while you should not read too much into the "take care" comment, there was no "love, so and so" comment. But I think that's minimal. We're dealing with what, 126 characters of usable space in a txt message? Also, my perspective may be wonked anyway. Right now, my ex and I are talking, are hugging, are even hand holding and the occasional kiss on the cheek (from her) while we talk. But this morning, when she drove me to the airport, I went to hug her (which her body language accepted), and went to kiss her on the cheek... her body language went rigid, and she quickly turned her face like 90 degrees, just so I wouldn't be anywhere near the lips... not within a country mile. I almost sensed revulsion (maybe reading too much into it). So the concept of having sex with the ex is something I can't even come close to comprehending or analysing. All I can say is this - I wouldn't have sex with my ex again until I knew we were going to get back together... that's a fact in my brain, and it sits like this: to me, sex has rarely been casual - once I got past my early 20s, I only enjoyed sex with people I felt especially close to, and in love with (at various degrees, including "falling in love with"). So to have sex with the ex before I knew we were going to be happy together again would be tantamount to using her, or lying to myself... to me (not to you, or anyone else for that matter), sex at any point in a breakup would be cheap, and damaging. Again, that's my perspective. Prolly why I'd never consider a prostitute or imagine myself doing the "casual scene" for some gratification. Now where's those old porno tapes... Still, a kiss on the lips would be a nice step

GeeCee gives some really good advice. I used to say to my ex "you're just making excuses. You're justifying things", Manoman that was a terrible thing to say. If someone said that to me, I'd feel my concerns and problems were worthless. It's something I'm determined not to ever do again in my lifetime in a relationship. February, I get the feeling that the call hurt you, and hence the resentment in what he had to say. The only thing I can give you is a male perspective here, and from someone who used to say "she's only making excuses" all the time. (really - all the time... it was my favourite phrase). My thoughts are this. He was playing the role of the Venus person (much as I dislike John Gray, he makes some sense in what he writes). He was telling you the problems, not to find solutions or present solution scenarios or to even make excuses, but it sounds like he was attempting possibly to cry on your shoulder a bit. Some of those things were pretty intense... a friend wanting to commit suicide! Yikes Losing his appt? No matter how you look at it, that's stress. Situatiosn with the ex ex? STRESS. My male perspective is this... I don't know your situation. I assume you were the dumpee, not the dumper... but his male ego was such that he felt he couldn't go to you with his troubles. He probably felt an enormous sense of guilt from even thinking about it, if he was the dumper. If I were him, and in this situation, what I would have liked to have heard from you was this... "wow, you had such a rough time of it, I am sorry that you felt you couldn't come to me for comfort. If we are to be friends first, I hope you can think that you can talk to me about these things. I'd put aside the relationship, and just be your shoulder, if that's what you want..." If I were him, and I heard this, I'd melt. But the key here is, it has to be sincere. This, coming from a guy who wants nothing more right now than to have his ex be happy with herself, and to see me as a possible best friend (we're working on it, through a very tough time... my Mom just passed away, and she loved my ex dearly as a genuine daughter, not just a "wife of my son". Right now, my ex and I working on being friends. It's early days, but it seems to be working. LostinVan.

Hi Pesty. Thanks for the words and advice. I don't think I will play the "oh seeing another person, a woman" card... But I really don't know what to say or how to handle tomorrow. I'm really desparate for some advice here... LostinVan...